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Nowler In reply to hip-indeed [2012-01-24 17:53:00 +0000 UTC]

The age-old argument is finally over, is best pony.
Considering the fact that I usually have no idea what I'm doing when it comes to color and I usually end up having my pictures be an amalgamation of contrasting, eye-poking colors, in the end my choice of a gradient turned out to be pretty appropriate (despite having been sheer luck), although I feel like the use of white lines somewhat deterred from the detail and accuracy I usually manage to put into my sketches. And I'm sure there are plenty other submissions that manage to present themselves visually (and from a content point of view) much better than mine does.
As for my ramblings within the tutorial, to be honest, every time I considered what kind of information I should offer in it, I couldn't help but think that it's obvious knowledge, and I would be sooner to have someone believe that I'm insulting their intelligence rather than presenting them with useful, new information. And if my tutorial would serve to be someone's first guide into how to draw ponies, I could only draw the conclusion that they have their sources for research in all the wrong places >.> .
Several problems for new artists (in particular pony ones) are that they don't really think of the characters they draw as being three dimensional, which the show's style helps somewhat encourage, thanks to its simplistic appearance and they always try and emulate it line for line. Over time, I've learned that anatomy, structure and learning the basic elements is far more important than working out your own style. That usually comes with time and the effort of understanding how art works, since once you manage to grasp the limits in which you can extend your own creativity it becomes much easier to make your art both beautiful and for lack of a better wording "anatomically correct". At the end of the day art is still art and we are only bound by our own imagination and how much we are willing to stretch the limits for the sake of bringing forth amazing things. Following the rules never lead anyone to new and exciting places, now, did it?
Skill-less newbie is one of the last things you are. There's always room for improvement for anyone, but you're far better than you might think yourself to be! (better than me, if that holds any value xD)
Thank you very much for reading my tutorial and even more for commenting! Much appreciated!

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hip-indeed In reply to Nowler [2012-01-25 04:00:24 +0000 UTC]

Awww <3 To think for once that term wouldn't be directed to Dash or Twilight, but me~

Yeah though, I just really, really like deep purples, blues, and black, it's just very calming and motivating and FEELS GOOD to me. One of those things that's a bit difficult to explain. Just looking at the guide is "comfortable" to me because of that, and there's something I really like a lot about white lines against a dark background. I gotta try that sometime.

There are some really good guides from this batch -- I looked through most of them earlier today when I did yours, actually. But yours, visually, may be my favorite, if I'm not forgetting any. I just really enjoy the way you set the whole thing up and it's very nice to look at, and easy to read, and easy to learn from. Like I said before, the one and only thing that keeps this guide from being as good as I could ask for out of a simple pony guide made for the ATG is the fact that you keep reminding the reader of things that you should assume they DON'T know, and/or stop beating yourself up about.

Like, gosh, seriously, I know artists tend to put themselves down and stuff, and I know I do it too and probably will until I'm at least using good solid foundational art concepts to draw rather than kinda winging it mostly, but you seem to be really overdoing it for the level you're at and the charm your drawings have. Yeah, you have your ponies these kinda wispy skinny legs, but it's your *style*, and it feels it. It's obviously not because you don't know how to draw them, but you draw them that way on purpose, and it along with other details make your pony art different from anyone else's. That's a level above all us in the ATG who're struggling just to be able to draw as close to the show as possible at first, and even though the pony community's certainly full of really knock-your-socks-off artists of all types, you certainly do not need to feel some pointless need to put yourself down like so. There's a difference between being modest and wanting to improve, and having no confidence. You need confidence. You deserve confidence.

Nothing should feel obvious when making a tutorial. I prefer (and I think most people prefer) tutorials that explain everything as much as possible; I'd much rather have TOO much explained to me than NOT ENOUGH, and it'd be easy to just glance over things you already know, and not complain, because the person obviously put more work into it. A tutorial that assumes i know this and this and this are the types that I find the least useful, and most people seem to make those -- this week, there were a LOT of them, too. I actually think I prefer the tutorials by people who obviously have a very low level of skill in art at the moment, but go into great detail and really explain HOW that person draws pony, over the ones by super amazing artists that just kinda lightly glance over a few random haphazard things, and assumes you know all these art concepts and practices, own Photoshop and know how to use it. Now, I'm not trying to bash those guys' tuts, and I know it was just for an ATG theme so not a lot of people took it super-seriously or made a guide quite like they would if they spent a long time on one made just out of their sheer 'feeling like it', and I know my own guide is both terribly novice in skill AND suffers from the same thing I just complained about some amazing artists doing, but I'm just saying what I honestly find more appealing in a tutorial.
(Basically, I'm really glad you did those steps and I don't think you should ever feel like they're insulting anyone's intelligence. People WANT to learn or re-learn concepts when looking at a tutorial, if they already knew so much stuff they wouldn't be looking at one to begin with now would they?)

Yeah, I've heard from more than one awesome artist I know all the details about how learning basics and anatomy first and applying style later is super important. That's one of many reasons I try not to do too much of a 'style' when drawing ponies so far and try to just draw them like the show, learning more and more how they're made up and how to *draw* them without overcomplicating it before I have a mastery over them. I do little things like round snouts and some other stuff here and there but I wouldn't be able to apply *style* like YOU already do for a long time yet; I still don't even really use guidelines or skeletons at all even though I have the resources to learn about them, and I need to kick myself into doing that, but I keep drawing for these weekly themes and everything else and kinda feeling like 'well okay that's it that's good' and not learning these fundamentals I need to learn. Looking at guides like this that remind me of some basic things I need to do and learn how to do but while still being 'nice' and 'comfy' and not grabbing me by the wrist and staring me down with soulless super-strict-artist eyes and commanding me to do something I'm not really able to even fully grasp yet is more helpful and relieving to me than you would probably guess.

And maybe I'm not utterly skill-less but my skill is certainly still very minimal, and will be without much, much, MUCH more practice and learning and applying those concepts I keep bringing up again and again, trying to drill into myself how much I need to do it. And I'm certainly still a newbie, it being embarrassing to admit that at the age of 25 when I should have been far above that level by now, but it's been less than a year since the original ATG took place and I started drawing seriously and consistently for the first time in my life. I have to work even HARDER to make up for all the years of time I HAVEN'T been drawing, despite the one thing I'd like to do more than anything in the world, my whole life, being 'making cartoons'. That's one reason I definitely kick myself; I need to, I have so very much to do and learn and so very little laziness to allow to even exist in any form anymore.

And wherever you get that you're not better than me, I'd like to know. I'm glad you enjoy my stuff apparently, but I'd say I'm at least a good year of hard, solid work from being at your level, from what I'm seeing before me.

(And I bet you'll take back that 'thank you for commenting' now; you've unleashed the beast of my monster reply-power with all that meaningful stuff I felt the need to reply to here, and in return you've received a novel-length wall of words that I wouldn't even feel surprised if you didn't read~)

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Nowler In reply to hip-indeed [2012-01-25 12:21:15 +0000 UTC]

I read your entire comment, and regret is the last thing I felt about it. I enjoy comments on my art more than anything else, especially meaningful ones, despite not being able to provide such comments on other people's work myself, which kind of makes me feel bad. It's sort of like asking for attention and support and giving none in return... Most of the praise in your comment is undeserved, though...

And before you start telling me that I'm being too harsh on myself or something like that, I'm aware of it, and it's probably one of my greatest flaws. One thing that I've always noticed about myself is that unfortunately while others might be inspired by other people's art to improve and gain determination to be able to create something just as good or better, such art kind of has the opposite effect for me. In a way, whenever I see an amazing picture, pony related or otherwise, I can't help but think that there are so many things for me to learn in order to reach such a level of skill that it becomes a bit overwhelming. I know that's not an appropriate mindset, but it's grown with me over time. You know how they say that artists are aware of most of the mistakes they make in their art? I usually acknowledge most of the flaws my art has and the reason why I bash myself isn't necessarily because I'm not willing to fix them, but more because I don't know how, which I find frustrating. In a way, confidence is a luxury I instinctively don't allow myself, which is kind of sad, now that I think about it.

Regarding the tutorial itself, you kind of made me feel bad that I didn't put more effort into it. There were certainly many more elements and small observations that I thought about adding at some point in time, but they slipped my mind and I ended up thinking that they would serve only to extend the length of the tutorial uselessly, so I only went with the idea of presenting a broader, more basic aspect of pony anatomy discarding any information I thought unnecessary.

As a fun fact, while I was drawing the sketches and basic shapes for the bodies, legs and such, I din't really follow my own tips. Despite keeping in mind what the individual sections were and how thing were supposed to go together, I kind of drew the whole pony first, and then added joints, circles and everything else in order to represent how things are supposed to be from a technical standpoint. I guess over time, and plenty of practice it kind of becomes second nature and you just subconsciously know how the anatomy works and you don't really need to draw out the whole skeleton, unless you want to do something more complicated with your character.

That might also be part of the reason why very skilled artists don't really describe the entirety of the process they go through when they draw, since they're already familiar with all the details and "rules" they usually follow without even thinking, making them somewhat believe that everyone else might already know what they do, and how they do it.

Age isn't really of that much importance when it comes to drawing. It's how dedicated you want to be and how much you enjoy doing it. Most people have no idea how to draw, and they're not very likely to begin learning any time soon, which is quite unfortunate, since it's an amazingly rewarding skill, at least for me. The fact that you take up learning something that you enjoy and are determined to improve your skills is something definitely worth admiring.

(Super long rant counter reply attack, go!)

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hip-indeed In reply to Nowler [2012-01-25 20:43:40 +0000 UTC]

Well, I'm glad you can stand it, much more that you actually like it. I don't know much about art or anything myself so I can't give like detailed intelligent criticisms or anything but I can talk to people about things that I think are justified in talking to them about, that they maybe need to hear (or read or whatever).

Most of that second paragraph is like completely ditto for me. One of the biggest reasons I've never drawn seriously and consistently my whole life until recently is because every time I've started to, even as a kid, I end up telling myself a week or two later things like, "What's the point, there are already people younger than me who can draw better, why should I even try?" or "Even if I have all these cool ideas I wanna draw, there's just too much to learn, too much work" and just kinda stopped. I'm the kinda guy that I guess is a big ocd/perfectionist and I don't wanna just doodle over and over for years and hope for the best; from the beginning I wanted to learn all these concepts and things that would be difficult to learn and master and all this crap like life drawing that I knew I'd need to draw very well, but have been too embarrassed to persue in any way. Even now, I don't feel like I'm going to be doing any life drawing in the forseeable future except like objects around me or stills of people in shows or on the computer but not irl, but I know I need it, extremely so for the anatomy basis that even the crappiest cartoonist in the world REQUIRES to draw anything worth a damn. I have tons and tons and tons of things I need to learn and utterly master before I can even begin to be a tenth as good as even the simplest artist that I admire. But I've finally put my foot down and decided I'm going to do it, because my dream more than anything is to make SOME kind of webcomic or web cartoon series or something with alllllll these characters and ideas and stuff I've thought up for years and years now. And I wanna do bitchin' fanart, too.

The thing is, though, you are WILLING to fix your mistakes. Even if it takes a long time for you to figure out exactly *how* to do so, since you are willing to you WILL get there. The #1 thing is to just never give up.

And confidence is not a 'luxury', it's a needful thing for us to succeed. There's a difference between confidence and narcissism, confidence and a huge ego. The artists that become "satisfied" completely with their work and stop growing, and the artists who allow their egos to grow so huge that they stop improving and stop learning, are the ones that do it wrong. Likewise, the artists that become TOO humble, or belittle themselves TOO much, won't have the STRENGTH to improve, at least not NEARLY at the rate they SHOULD, so they, to, are doing it quite wrong if you ask me. I don't care what you've heard or what assholes you may have talked to who may have implied you need to never even have a drop of confidence, or what your own mind may tell you likewise (I know mine likes to act like a prick like that to me :3 ), the fact is, the real, solid fact is, YOU DESERVE AND REQUIRE confidence. Confidence that, even if your art isn't amazing yet, you know it will GET there, and you WILL work and learn and stick with it until it is, and beyond. Confidence that even if people say mean things and put you through crap, you'll take whatever you can learn from your criticisms and stay positive and work and work until you can finally truly do what you want to the level at which you want. And even then, you'll keep improving, always, because you'll keep drawing what you want to draw and having fun with it and just feeling great, and you'll become greater and greater. That's what I feel you should think. That's what I feel you should believe, personally, as well as anyone who's really serious about this stuff. (But ESPECIALLY you because you need to hear this so badly right now it's almost tangible)

Well, like I said, you still managed to create one of my favorite tutorials from this whole theme, but perhaps you should think about making another tutorial in the future just out of your own time? It might be a good way to put to practice some of the things I'm telling you here and I guarantee you I, at least, would read it and use it. I don't mean to stress you out with the idea of doing something that time-consuming again but it's something to think about.

That's cool to hear, too, about the lack of needing to do those things. I'd love to get to that point AFTER I learn and use the skeletons and guidelines a lot, and fully understand how they function and how to properly use them...

But yeah, that's a huge mistake for anyone making any kind of guide, imo. If a guide assumes you know anything *at all* I personally feel that it should label somewhere what it expects you to know (so you can look it up if you don't already), or at the very least say it's a guide for artists who are past the beginner stage, or something. Anything so that the reader doesn't feel like an idiot for not knowing something the artists assumes they know, when in making a guide, again I reiterate, why would you expect your readers to know things? If they knew things, why would they be reading guides?
(But again, this week's theme was more of making a tutorial on how YOU draw ponies, not how TO draw ponies step-by-step, necessarily. It's still a problem with real 'guides' made besides this theme, though, of course)

I'm glad you think that. I feel like even if I'm IMMENSELY passionate and dedicated from this point on, I won't ever be able to truly make up for all the years I didn't draw that I should have been. But the past is set in stone, so there's nothing I can do about that; if I just whine about it nothing will matter, if I try anyway then at least I can say that I did try. And I'm sure that if I work hard, I can get there -- even if i'm 50 before I'm able to actually work on my first cartoon or something, then damn, wouldn't that have been worth it? I think so!
I guess i just feel really sick to my stomach when I keep seeing artists and cartoonists that are absolutely out of this world and are, like, 20. I feel like... they're just plain going to succeed more than me, and do more than I'll ever be able to do, now that I've wasted those years. But what kind of way is that to think? Art is unique from person to person. Even if I meet someone who's better than me when i'm 35 and they're just 18, the stuff THEY create will be vastly different from the stuff I create, and no one in this whole world has an imagination just exactly like my own, or ideas just exactly like my own, so even if my skill never quite reaches these Leonardo heights I can still maybe make a webcomic or cartoon or something that'll make so many people happy that it'd be worth it -- and in the meantime hopefully draw a lot of fanart clever enough that people enjoy it. People really seem to enjoy some of the silly things I've drawn already, and that's so much more than I could have expected for someone with my current ability...

(and here's and even LONGER reply. You see what you're doing? You're getting into some really dangerous territory, you'd better know what you're up against...)

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Nowler In reply to hip-indeed [2012-01-26 17:55:57 +0000 UTC]

See, this is pretty much why there needs to be a feature implemented so you can fave comments.Because of comments like this.
This time I won't be having much of a long reply since all I can really do at this point is agree with you on everything you just stated... that, and thank you.

I bring myself down a lot simply because I'm afraid of going over that thin line between confidence and arrogance. Whenever I bask too much in the satisfaction my own achievements it's like I completely forget that there's still plenty of other things to learn and accomplish, and I momentarily lose sight of my goal to improve and develop my skills. And it really really sucks.

I enjoyed this particular theme because it gave me the chance to try making a tutorial myself, which I have always wanted to do some day, just because I was curious to see how I would manage to go about it. Perhaps I will one day make another, better one (hopefully) using the knowledge I've gained from this one. For obvious reasons, stuff that I draw because I want to rather than out of obligation come out much better, since they manage to show in themselves that I enjoyed making them, as is with most things in life.

And I am absolutely sure that your passion in art will take you exactly where you want to be. In one of your previous comments you said it would take you a year to reach my "level" of skill, or something along those lines, but I'm sure it'll take you a lot less since you're much, much more determined and passionate than me, and you aspire for much greater goals, which I am deeply inspired by.

Lastly, all I can say is thank you. For the comment, for the support (and for the watch ). In a way, you've kind of reminded me why I began to draw more seriously in the first place. So just...thank you.

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hip-indeed In reply to Nowler [2012-01-26 20:01:11 +0000 UTC]

Hahaha, well first of all I'm very glad that my over-wordy spiels are having such a positive effect on you. I'm honored to be able to help in any way.

I suppose some people have a problem with being confident and not letting it go too far, but I feel like for most of us it's just matter of being confident, period. Like, as for me, I've been quite proud of my achievements and progression in the silly little period since I've started drawing more seriously, but not for one tenth of a second do I ever even pretend that I don't have mountains of things to learn and ways to improve over the course of... well, if not a very long period, then the rest of my life. I don't even intend on attempting to draw any of my own characters until I've improved vastly and have a very firm grasp on anatomy and all kinds of principles, for example, even though I'm excited to draw them. I fear if I did it too early I would leave a bad first impression of them in the eyes of the people who saw them. Even considering all that, though, I'm so proud that I've come as far as I have; that I've finally STARTED doing something and am going harder and faster constantly, rather than slowing down or giving up. I kept feeling like giving up several times during my first few months of doing this, but now I already feel like that will absolutely never happen, under any circumstance.

I think you're like me, too. I think you can have as much confidence and satisfaction and happiness in your work as you want, but still won't fall into the black hole of arrogance. I can just tell -- even if you seem to imply that you think otherwise, or even felt it's happened before. You just seem like a good kind of person, a person that wouldn't stop and feel like he's the best thing since bread no matter how optimistic and satisfied you became -- that's how I feel. That's the "vibe" I get, so to speak.
You do talk like you've already been there before, but I just really don't feel that you'd stay there for any real length of time and really stagnate, and the fact that you're talking as you are right now proves that. And I'd personally much rather you be overconfident than so negative, if I had to choose, even if you feel the latter would be better for art improvement or whatever.

And I agree with the next point, about how things made from the heart will always be better than things made "because you have to", though I'll forever adore the ATG and what it's done for me, and I'll keep being a part of it as long as it exists. After all this practice I've gotten from convincing myself I have to do it like it's an obligation, I've grown way more than I would have JUST doing things 'from my heart' (and would have never produced anywhere NEAR the amount I have in the time I have). I only hope that even after this is all over I find ways to keep myself going at such a constant pace; if not other atg-like things, then maybe things like my self-imposed one-piece-a-day thing, but... better than that, in the future.

It makes me feel wonderful to hear that someone as skilled (even if you don't admit it) as you would believe in me so much, seeing my stuff as it is now and barely knowing me. I didn't mean to imply that I'd be as good as you within a year (I'll be lucky if I'm even close, even if I work very hard, imo) and even then it was more your current level than the place YOU may be by then, but I hope that if I really stay on course completely that I can be at a more comparable level. I'd love to be able to do more things and draw art for cool artists that they'd actually like and do trades and collaborations with people and stuff like that, and of course get to the point at which I'm doing REALLY cool fanart and am capable of doing my own characters justice, but I really need to work hard enough to make up for all the years I haven't done it... I feel like I'm repeating myself here, haha. But anyway, thank you for your words. I'm sure you have some dreams and goals yourself regarding all this stuff, or you wouldn't be drawing as much as you already have and currently are. Even if it's as simple as "draw cool fanart" or something, I think that's a fine goal to have.

And again, I am extremely glad that what I've said has affected you in a positive way like this. I already really think you're someone I could be great friends with, if that's not presumptuous to say. I would love to talk to you in a more direct way if you have any IM things like Steam, AIM, MSN, Skype, etc. if you were so willing. I bet we could inspire each other a whole lot in this life.

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Nowler In reply to hip-indeed [2012-01-27 14:21:44 +0000 UTC]

I almost gave up on drawing once... it's like one part of my mind keeps pulling me down, putting me in my place, constantly telling me not to pride myself on what I've learned or done well so far, because compared to others it's dust in the wind. I began to think it useless to keep on going because I began to feel it wasn't doing me any good, as if I was making no progress whatsoever. But there was also the other side of my confused brain that didn't let me give up. I realized that drawing had become a part of who I was, rather than a hobby as I had wrongly thought up until that point. I couldn't just stop. It would have felt like a waste of potential to do something I truly enjoyed. I didn't allow myself to simply quit because it felt...wrong. And I'm glad I went on.

I guess both being required to do something and it being something you enjoy doing both contribute to improve your determination to achieve your goal. I kind of made it sound before like being required to do something would greatly decrease how involved you are in the task, but that isn't necessarily true. The ATG is a perfect example, because, just as you said, it offers a set goal and it is something you still have the option of choosing to do, out of passion and love for art (and ponies, of course ).

No, it is not at all presumptuous. And as cheesy as it may probably sound, I would be honored to be your friend. I'm glad you think of me as someone you might get along with and I hope we'll be great friends.

I do have Steam and Skype, so I'll just drop you a note with the account names and such.

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Nowler In reply to Perforex [2012-01-19 20:03:58 +0000 UTC]

Thanks!

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Perforex In reply to Nowler [2012-01-20 00:56:57 +0000 UTC]

Welcome!

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Nowler In reply to steampunkfox [2012-01-15 21:05:33 +0000 UTC]

Ah, thanks! English isn't my native language, so I was kinda confused when I came up to that part and had no idea what to write xD

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steampunkfox In reply to Nowler [2012-01-15 22:33:32 +0000 UTC]

eh don't worry. the only reason i know what a fetlock is is because i grew up with horses. so yeah with me its all withers, hindquarters, flanks, throatlatch, postern, stifles, loin... i could go on forever.

if you ever need to know the right word just google horse anatomy

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Nowler In reply to steampunkfox [2012-01-16 12:17:25 +0000 UTC]

That's really neat! Although, to be honest, I don't know what half of the words you said mean. xD
And yeah, I probably should have documented myself a bit better. Well, there's always a next time.

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steampunkfox In reply to Nowler [2012-01-16 23:17:39 +0000 UTC]

aww don't worry about it. only people like me will notice and its not like it makes your art any less amazing.

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Nowler In reply to steampunkfox [2012-01-17 13:18:11 +0000 UTC]

Thank you.

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Nowler In reply to BlackCatXel [2012-01-15 17:59:27 +0000 UTC]

Thanks, I'm glad you like it

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Nowler In reply to Arcum89 [2012-01-15 17:58:42 +0000 UTC]

Anatomy is one of the things I enjoy most about art, although I'm aware that I'm a long way from having a full understanding of it, since I still find myself a bit puzzled when it comes to really weird, unfamiliar poses. But lighting and color are fairly important as well, since they help a lot to get a certain mood and emotion across in a piece of art. Unfortunately, I have yet to grasp the fine art of using colors, which really shows when I try to make a more "complete" piece which kind of leads to generally avoiding it altogether...also lineart, I'm horrible at that too. >.>

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Arcum89 In reply to Nowler [2012-01-16 08:36:13 +0000 UTC]

Oh yes no doubt that color and lighting play a major role in any art piece. It just helps to have the basics down and understood before you move onto anything more complex.

I am also trying to learn about color and lighting myself (along with backgrounds, man I hate those) so it sounds like we both have a lot to learn.

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Nowler In reply to Arcum89 [2012-01-16 11:59:25 +0000 UTC]

Backgrounds are pretty much the bane of my existence, and I would rather just make it transparent than put effort in something I can predict will come out awful, but one of these days I'll get to learning how to draw backgrounds...one day.
And in the learning category, I'm sure everyone has something to learn, no matter how good at art...some more than others. (especially me )

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Nowler In reply to chernobylBound [2012-01-15 17:10:39 +0000 UTC]

I'm glad you think so. And thanks for the fave

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