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Riveda1972 — [MMD WIP] Path to C6V3 n.11 HELL AND DAMNATION!
#3d #3dmodeling #issues #mmd #rig #rigging #weighting #capricasix #mikumikudance #pmxeditor
Published: 2019-01-08 12:44:17 +0000 UTC; Views: 1194; Favourites: 8; Downloads: 4
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HELL & DAMNATION!!!A new year has come, and I decided to go on working on my C6V3 model. The modeling phase is almost finished, as the one missing part, the torso, have been completed (it just needs some minor adjustments on a few vertices positions in order to make more regular its topology).
Well it's not surprising that my frustration has raised up when I passed into the rigging phase.
Consider that I'm trying to make a model having more spinal bones than the 2 +1 standard ones. Actually it should have 4 +1 (4 for the torso + 1 for hips/lower body).
In order to save time I've decided to use a reference model having a similar bones structure. My idea was to use the Transfer weight plugin in PMX Editor to give the model a basic rigging and then to work more in deep editing the vertices weights to fix the issues resulting from the different topology (as my model has much more faces, after the weight transferring I have some parts moving/bending too "blocky"... it seems that the TW plugin doesn't intepolate weights when it finds more vertices/faces than expected).
However... the TW phase has passed ok.
I had the expected blocky parts, but generally speaking the model works: both in the T/Posing window of PMX Editor and once imported in MMD for a runtime test.
NOW... HERE'S MY DAMNATION. FIXING THE WEIGHTS USING THE PMXE WEIGHT TOOL (see the two last screenshots)
I started correcting the vertices weight where I got "blocky" behaviors. Dum dum ta de dum... all seemed to work ok, since I remained in the PMXE T posing window (just see the first 4 images: for now I was working just on the Hips/Lower body bone, and the right leg one). The images show those bones working in T/Posing window, inside PMXE.
Then, just look at what occurs when I import the model in MMD.... *GROAN*
Ignore the different color tones on the body, I just separed the materials to easely find the vertices to edit.
It seems that the edited bones have lost their weights as you can see in the MMD previw.
What the hell... ?!?
maybe it's something really stupid that me dummy idiot am doing the wrong way.
maybe just some unchecked checkbox in the PMXE "W" tool? Maybe something that I have to set, using the W tools, considering that I'm not rigging from zero, but editing a model that's already rigged?
Please, help before I completely go mad
Infos about the development status, here:
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Comments: 33
Can't you just convert BDEF4 to BDEF2 in PMXe? It seems like that would be a helpful simplification for your rigging efforts.
(BDER4: a vertex can be weighted to 3 or 4 bones. BDEF2: a vertex can be weighted to 2 bones.
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when a models rigging works in pmxe but not in mmd it most likely because the vertex needs to be normalized
hope this helps!
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Hmmmm it's been very useful to solve the problem with the vertices appearently having lost their weights.
Still I'm figting with the way PMXE manages the editing on models already rigged.
Some progresses now that I've chosen another model, more conforming to my model's shapes, from which to transfer weights.
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I'll try tomorrow, for sure. I have the model on my work PC at office
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Did you use the weight transfer from a game model cause this looks like it's BDEF4 rigging issues and those can't be fixed in PMX without advance knowledge. You can check the weight type the same way you put the model into flatwire. ;w;BDEF4 presents as dark green and it's a pain. That's why I removed most of mine from my game bases.
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Yes the original weight map was from a game model having exactly the chord bones structure I wanted to use.
So once transferred the weight there is no way to edit the weights in PMXE?
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No sadly since game models use BDEF4 rigging. You can do this type in Blender so maybe try corrections in there? I don't know how sadly but I hear good things about it. Also even if your bone structure is similar to the game model, it won't transfer the weights exactly unless the vertices on your model are in the exact same spot as them. That's why most ppl use this plugin for clothes if that makes sense.
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It seems that the solution offered by MMDKoala works 
At least at a first sight the model seems to work properly as edited in PMXE
I'll test it better, before to say "solved" but...
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I haven't heard of this solution before.
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Me too, but it seems to work °_°
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Actually it worked well to solve the problem with the vertices appearently having lost their weights.
Still I'm figting with the way PMXE manages the editing on models already rigged.
Some progresses now that I've chosen another model, more conforming to my model's shapes, from which to transfer weights.
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Ah fair enough! Good luck! <3 I am just gonna try to finish these bases I started then plan to make my UTAU and some art. I am super excited.
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Yes the issue due to different vertices position while transferring the weights was expected.
What I diidn't expect at all, was this difficulty once I need to correct those issues
Not so sadly, actually. I'm learning more i using Blender. I used it mostly to model "inorganic" objects, not needing so "elastic" rigging, but it seems I'll have to learn more and this will be useful regardless of the reason why I'm learning
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BDEF4 is a pain if you don't know it. I know I struggle immensely which is why I have resorted to just keeping the shoulders on my bases as is cause I can't edit them like I could on a TDA base. I haven't had much luck learning it as I can't find tutorials that break it down and when I asked some pros about this type, they couldn't teach it sadly.
This is literally the only guide to the BDEF4 rigging in PMX and even then it's not clear. ;;
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I know vasilnatalie is writing a nice manual about MMD matters, maube he'll include also a nice, deeply explained section about rigging
Anyway try asking him, he's always very clear and competent in his explainations
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Nah. It's been on the back burner a long time. Besides which, there really isn't enough information to get into model editing, it's focused entirely on MMD usage. Model editing would require its own book. Heck, tiny subsets of rigging deserve their own book-- I just put in an interlibrary loan request for a book on facial rigging.
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;w; I'll keep this in mind but some of their lingo throws me. I'm fine with what I do atm though and hopefully I will be doing new models sooner rather than later cause I have had to downgrade to low poly (not super low poly but still low poly)
Thanks though!
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I have never tried to weight map a model manually before. I think that Blender has better weight mapping tools than PMX editor. If you succeed with it, maybe you can make a tutorial to help other people. That way at least your pain won't be wasted.
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My trouble is that I use "decently" Blender for modelling "inorganic" models, like props, objects, and so on. Nothing needing a so complex and fluid rigging, so. Also I use it in combination with PMX Editr, to do things I cannot make inn PMXE (or I can do better or quicker or easier, for example uv mappings and proportional editing). Soon or later I'll learn more and why not to make some tutorials? But you know, I'm a damn time-waster (do you remember my "two or three weeks to complete C6V3"? that's so)
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Is it rigged with SDEF? You can add SDEF to a model in PMX editor. Theoretically that should give you better-looking mesh deformations. Straight line interpolation (I think this is BDEF?) tends mathematically to give deformations which are parabola-shaped, and which don't preserve volume. Double quaternion interpolation (Blender's "preserve volume" option in an armature modifier), is an improvement over straight line interpolation. SDEF (spherical deform interpolation) is theoretically the best algorithm.
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Nay, I tend to use SDEF just for articulations like elbow or knees, as suggested by vasilnatalie . He wrote a deep tutorial about this matter, and the vertices in the abdomen and chest are are naturally influenced by more than one bone. So I use BDEF there. I would use QDEF too, but MMD doesn't support it as far as I know.
Metra-Philia suggested me to use Blender too, to make the weight painting, as PMXE tends to delete other bones influences when you paint vertices with a bone selected.
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Sometimes it'll not work in the pmx preview and then work MMD. One possibility is that it may not be connected to the bone above the butt bone. (waist bone?) Hope this helps!~
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nah, the bones hierarchy seems ok.
center -> Hips -> Leg
center -> Hips -> Butt
by the way, if this was a bones hierarchy issue I expected the model shouldn't work neither just after the weight transfer. instead it works both in PMXE and MMD.
It's once I have edited the model to fix the weight issues that the model starts not working properly in MMD (but in the PMXE T windows it seems to work ok)
So it's for sure something wrong that I'm doing while "fixing" the weight of some vertices.
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no the vertices not the bones, my bad. (I know what I meant just not how to communicate it, lol.) The vertices might not be connected to those bones. Gah..... I can't make sense even if I try lol.
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Yes it's what I'm afraid it's happened, but the question is still: why? What have I done wrong?
If the model worked properly, immediately after transferring the weight, and stopped working only after that I've edited the rigging using the W tool in PMXE, it's obvious that I've done something the wrong way
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nah pmx just hates people. Do you have an earlier save? Or you could, Start over with rigging the torso. I've had that happen and it ain't you fault the program is just faulty.
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Yes, of course, I have both the unrigged one and the one working (but "blocky") with the basic rigging added using the TW plugin
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There's an automatic rigging plugin!
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It seems that the solution offered by MMDKoala works
At least at a first sight the model seems to work properly as edited in PMXE
I'll test it better, before to say "solved" but...
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That's GOOD!~ I'm happy you found the solution!
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