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SapphireGamgee — Sam and Sting
Published: 2012-04-09 07:18:18 +0000 UTC; Views: 4378; Favourites: 193; Downloads: 0
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I love it when Sam goes all stabby with Sting XD Giant spiders, beware!Related content
Comments: 157
Thank you very much! (I have a weakness for blue and hobbits)
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One of the reasons he's my favorite XD
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Your art is amazing! Your hobbits are so cute 
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Aww, thanks! He's also my favorite
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Oh...I swear I'm not a monster...just an old woman who's been too-long too-attached to Sméagol. It was first-read love. Though I cannot say why!
All: my nickname among friends is Sméagol, even my face (some say) resembles his movie version...what could I say???
I still say the same: I appreciate good art, and this is it!
(Sorry for sounding overdefensive and cowardly...it's just I don't get way too much love for thinking the way I do...:
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Hey, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and there's no need for bashing from anyone! Smeagol/Gollum is one of the great characters in English literature- I love him myself, though perhaps more because he's so pitiable.
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Phew. Sorry for being overdefensive. I'm naturally a loner, and so many people have "hated me rightaway" for liking this character that I tend to do that. But you know what they say "Dog that barks might not bite". I don't. Not usually. Not when people's kind like you are! ^^
Thanks for being tollerant to the differing of opinions! I LOVE that! Being able to like different things, though also able to discuss them in a civilized and good way, in order to share everything: what we do like and what we don't.
p.s: Urrrhhhh...I have to say it. I know Sméagol's life is a mess. I know he's pity worthy...but...actually I like him because I like him. Not really out of pity.
Ack, I'm 31 yrs old and I still don't know what touched such a deep cord within me about this character when I first read those books...I was only 8...and instead of freaking out about the weird little guy who wanted to eat the protagonist...I LIKED HIM!...And adopted him forever...sigh.
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Hating someone over their favorite character is a weird concept to me. I don't really get it. I think it's interesting to see who people identify with! And Gollum is such an fascinating and complex character. I always wonder what he would have been like if he'd never found the Ring and lived out his days by the Anduin with his family. Tolkien has taken him in some very telling directions, and even after 500 or so years with the Ring gnawing at him, he still has a little bit of himself left. How strong do you have to be to have anything left after all that time? I mean, egad!
And hey, you like him for whatever reason. It doesn't really matter why, it's just fun to wonder and debate. I rather like Gollum myself, though I admit I wouldn't let him near my cats. O_O
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I feel the same too.
I think it as "the more the merrier"...But where I live most Tolkien fans seem to only like or identify with "perfection" as they conceive it. Elves. Great kings. Such characters. A few identify with hobbits...but where I am...I am alone. It doesn't bother me since I believe there is "a character for everyone"...Some will be loved by a thousand, some by one or two...it's amusing and interesting to see who identifies with who...and what and why do they like...
Still I am used to be treated like I'm crazy because of my taste for Smeagol...I think it's a shame. I'd never mess with someone if they like a character I don't like...I think that's mind-closedness...nothing more.
If one can step for a minute in any character's shoes, one can understand them, if well written. And I mean anyone. Even (for example) someone as terrible as Denethor can be..." being him" for a second, you may find for his time and context,it was almost logical he preferred his "stronger" son as he perceived him, over the other one...this said, I find his attitude cruel and awful...but trying, I can get him, even if I don't agree with him.
It's not that hard. I just guess many people doesn't try it!
They stick with what's comfortable to them and that's it...
I vouch for a probable craftsman or boat maker, since he loved to work with his hands and dig...perhaps even a smial-builder?...We'll never know I guess. He might have been a chronicle writer, or a storyteller, since he was that interessed in secrets and old stories!...The poor guy missed a lot of possible good things. If he had only been stronger in will and less greedy, wanty or whatever pushed him to give in to the ring's siren chant...sigh.
He was indeed still very strong in what was left of his will.Even when the "alter-voice" dominated him easily during the years...but I bet anyone would yield to something so powerful after a time... It was a pity that he gave in at that first moment when the damn thing was found. (I for one, find extremely hard to cope with certain temptations...NOT to buy a certain book, which would cause a lack of needful money afterwards...NOT to respond to violence with violence...and many others...I can't say I don't get him!)
Yes! That's the point, in the end!... All likings in their base are just "because"!...Though many people feel so disconcerted when you like something they don't, that they'll ask you for an explanation...and there is where I fail, because wanting to be polite I got used to overexplain myself!...
HAHAHAHA!....
About that...I have a cat!!! and the little mad thing loves me in the gollum outfit!!! XD
Can you believe she would wail and moan whenever I pick her up from the ground...but would play rightaway with me if cosplaying gollum?...Sheesh...the little thing has no survival instincts!
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Elves and great kings are something noble to aspire to, but I love Tolkien's world for its variety, including the dwarves (whom the elves referred to as "unlovely" ) and the hobbits which were overlooked by Middle Earth's history precisely because they don't perform great deeds. In the end, I would rather be a hobbit than an elf. I'm not sure which character I identify with most, though. I mean, I have my favorites, but I'm not sure I'm like any of them. But the hobbits are the easiest to identify with as a whole, which I am sure Tolkien intended. They are closer to the English country gentlefolk that Tolkien was associated with than all the great folks they ended up associated with, and that's what matters most, I think. Like you, though, one can even understand Denethor. Like Smeagol, and even Saruman, he was in some ways 'possessed' by the power of Sauron (through the palantir, over which Sauron had control) . But they all had their choice, more or less, and in the end it affected them and all of those around them. One can understand Denethor without liking him. His sons loved him, at least, and by teh time he tried to burn Faramir alive, along with himself, he'd lost his mind. He paid with his life. (I can't say I identify with him myself…but yeah. )
Smeagol could have been so many things, and that's what's so sad and tragic. The Ring destroyed him, just as it destroyed everyone in its path. Even Frodo was, in many ways, destroyed. He could never have the peace he'd fought for. It's so very sad that Smeagol was destroyed so young. It's just incredible that he survived as long as he did. Even the noble and great like Gandalf and Elrond were amazed by that. I love that the hobbits continually surprised everyone XD
I admit that the only fan 'likings' I don't really understand is not so much the characters the fans like, but why. And that happens seldom, but I have met a fan or two who liked and admired a villain because they were vicious and cruel and took power. That I admit I don't understand. Empathizing with them, feeling pity for them, I do understand, but wanting to emulate their worst traits…that's beyond me, I fear. Like those who get Dark Mark tattoos because they think Voldemort is 'cool' and they want to be like him…. I don't know, I just… But I don't get into arguments with them, either. I just nod and smile and quickly leave the room. Empathizing, though, I totally get. I think it's vital to understand and empathize even with the villains of stories.
Hahaha! That sounds like my cats- they'd roll over and ask to be fed and petted if there were burglars in the house. They're pretty silly XD
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Precisely!
What would be of the great stories without their variety and shades of grey in the characters and storyline? That's what makes a world so believable we can feel we're fitted in it during the read...and that's what I call a good read!
Really...many of us would possibly be far more identifiable if compared to a hobbit than with any other race in most cases...still, I've dealt with tall dwarves- at -heart, short sighted thick eyeglassed elves-at-.heart- and rather cute and kind (even shy!) orc-lovers!...
That's what I still love about the people of this fandom!They don't always look like what they feel like!
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Yep. those little ones were a box of surprises!...Or even, to get to that cliche phrase which suits too good this as not to use it...they were a box of chocolate...you never knew what you had!...
Even at the worst times, they would be surprising...even if things didn't favor them too much.
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I am with you there...Every time I say I feel attached to Sméagol a lot, or even compare myself to him,.I am careful to always mean his BETTER side and traits (Imagine I'm ticking 31 yrs old now...I had a lot of time to search within myself and wonder why the heck I simpathized with this character so much)...Still, I never understood why the heck there are many who think "worse is better"...Crueler, admirable!...Eviler, bloodthirsty, cool!...Hmmmm...I don't quite get it. I believe there might be people who feels hurt and sad...even defenseless, and that makes them empathize strongly with really evil and power seeking villains, becasue within them there is a thirst of revenge, of dominance and respect (if not through love, by fear!)...I don't share it...but I believe that is the root for it.
Not my case or inclination, though...
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Ah yes...sometimes they are incredibly sly and cunning...and sometimes you could run at them with a knife on your hands and they would come nudging your ankles with their head in love displays...
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It's interesting that Tollkien gave some of the archetypal characters a bit more grey than they usually got in the great sagas. They're still archetypes, but they seem almost real.
The hobbits were always supposed to be stand-ins for the reader, to a certain extent. They are the Everyman, easily overlooked, yet somehow tough enough to stand with the greats. But fans can identify with anyone in the books, and that's what's awesome about them!
Yeah, I just don't get admiring evil in characters… I really don't understand it. I mean, I understand intellectually because the U.S. as a nation is very violent, and we're taught to be that way. I just think it's a bad idea, and will come back to bite us in the end (it has already) .
I love my cats XD They are adorable and kind of nuts...
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Yes he did! And that's what makes them far more interesting than characters in the traditipnal true old sagas, which were less described, more simple and clean cut, and the most of the prose or verse was dedicated to the actions and whereabouts of them but not so much in character insight. Then...those were the old ways, I cannot criticize them either!
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I think it is possible than any fan relates to anyone in the books...and in the diversity comes the fun!
Then, yes, the hobbits were "your average everyman" there, that's what Tolkien used, as I see it, to appeal to the reader in a more close way. With characters that sounded and acted "more like them" in a way. Not SO brave, SO magical or SO lordly as some others may be in time...More "Human" than humans in a way!
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Same here. I do not get admiring someone because of their belicist capacities or their bloodthirst...
I do understand why would it produce...but I don't embrace the idea myself.
This said, if you checked some of my recent drawings about The Dark Crystal (have you watched that movie?) you probably noticed I have a soft spot for the Skeksis, the antagonists of the film.
They clearly do many things I wouldn't even think of doing, and wouldn't bend to the morals I embrace. In their particular case I was bedazzled since I was a child by the fact that they seemed to me the most lifelike puppets I'd ever seen...and their robes and jewels even if very threadbare were incredibly rich and beautiful in a strange way. their design was madly intrincate, and that had me, at first sight. They are basically tyrants...but I anyway like them in a sense.
Not that in many moments of the movie I wouldn't kick some of them in the rear...if not all...
It's complicated to explain. What I referr to is I could not admire their cruel evil demeanor...
I love the way they're designed and some parts of their own unique and wicked personalities and character development...How they are well developed as individual persons...The way they are so alike to a 14th century court...
Thus...I could say I obeyed that "Love thy enemy" rule...
Still, I'm never thinking of truly admiring any form of cruelty or evil. Perhaps playing with it or making fun of...or even trying to ellicit any "humane" quality in characters where it could possibly be found on them,without taking them far from what they originally are, as I seeked to do with Smeagol...
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What cat isn't then?...
Who wouldn't love a big mad furball?
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The traditional saga characters are more archetypes than anything, and one has to approach them with that mindset. They definitely have their function.
Hobbits are the country men and women Tolkien knew when he was growing up in manchester (county, I think? ) , the ones who went off to war and never came back. Completely ordinary, but with the nobility that came with enlisting when they didn't want to. They did it out of duty and love for others.
I find teh Skeksis interesting, as halves of a whole, with the Mystics being the other side. It was definitely an interesting concept. Plus, creepy and wonderful execution with the puppets! I loved the set/character design in that movie, and the very 14th- 16th century vibe to them (I'm a costumer, so yeah XD ) I always enjoyed the Skeksis…but I also though the Mystics' design was cool, too!
All four of my mad furballs make me very happy XD
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Precisely! They're there not with the function of being actual characters, but to serve as figures through which the action develops and the required happenings take place.
Hmmm yes. I ponder so. Although I've never been a fan of warfare, I understand how he might have seen it. After all half of the world still sees war as something truly noble and honorable. Personally I believe there ALWAYS should be another way to solve things out...But I've been called a coward more than once for it. I do, nevertheless, respect the courage of those who sacrificed their lives in war...but find it hard to applaud it, since I don't support those ways...
YES!
Half of what totally sold them to me was those costumes. SUCH COSTUMES! A bit more tidy and Henry the fifth would die in envy! They were spectacular.(Now I know you're a costumer I know you'll get what I mean!...THOSE DETAILS!!!)
The execution and rendering of the characters was superb too...in the mystics it was also incredible and a wonderful design art!...I just always chose the Skeksis over them because they were (again I'll stick to "character" over anything! XD) more individualized as characters, and more able to be told apart, which made them more enjoyable to me...Then, it's just a personal taste. I like how they were clearly different from each other, every one of them with an his own looks, demeanor and mindset, even if all were evil.
The mystics were the exact opposite, almost indistinguishable, nearly working as a sole being. They wore very similar clothes, and though there were differences between their facial proportions and the overlay of clothing and arrays they wore, they were all very very alike to each other.
I think that fits very well with the concept of love and unity they represent , which would banish ego and reinforce the idea of "us" before the "self"...
Anyways, I am a horrible person XD...and rather having more individualized characters, evil or not, because they result more "workeable" and fun for my taste!
Then...as two parts of a whole they certainly work as a perfect machinery!...
FOUR?...Awwwwww....I only have one and she's my "daughter"!...the little spoiled brat of the house.
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*nodnod* precisely!
Sometimes, there is no way, sadly. Tolkien's work is interesting because he delineates war for gain, and war to protect home and family. The Gondorians, and Aragorn, and the Rohirrim, for instance, fight because they are being invaded and killed. They would much rather be at peace, but they're not going to lie down and let themselves be killed, and their families turned into slaves. Tolkien's view seems to be that war is a very last resort, but that there are times when the other side will not stop killing, or negotiate, or come to terms. The thing I always admired was that the good side was about killing out of necessity, accepting surrender, and not torturing. They weren't bloodthirsty.
Oh man, yes! I also love how it looked like teh costumes had been lived in…also, teh set. The emperor's bed was all dusty, like he hadn't moved, and no one cared to clean him up. Like all their finery was decaying…it was so cool! And yes, the individuality vs. group costume cues were awesome!
We never intended to have four, but one is mine, and when the older cat died, we ended up getting two more from teh shelter, because it was a two-for-one sale….and then teh fourth one followed us home lol.
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This will sound crazy...EVERYBODY LOVES SAM...I am aware of it...
I am too attached to Sméagol to say the same.
I think Sam is a very good character...yet, I do not actually love him.
But this depiction you drew here is brilliant!
The color palette, the movement to it, the foreshortening, everything is awesome!
Great job!
You...
YOU JUST MADE ME FAVE SAMWISE!
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Thank you very much! 
As for Sam, yes he made several blunders with Smeagol, which he finally came to understand in the end, mostly after he'd worn the Ring himself. It's interesting to note that, of all the characters that bore the Ring, he was the only one who gave it up willingly so close to its place of creation. That says quite a bit about him. I think Sam's problem is that he's so steadfastly in the Good Camp, and has had no real experience with evil on a personal level, that he just can't understand Smeagol and why he would choose to be the way he is. Granted, it's centuries of being twisted by the Ring, but Sam just doesn't have the personal experience to understand that. (Gollum is a lot less sympathetic in the books, though there is still that element of pathos to him. Frodo is also not quite so taken by him in the books, either. ) In the end, Sam spares Gollum, which by rights he shouldn't have done (though it worked out, so it's all good) . And they both forgave him because he helped with the Ring's destruction. Frankly, it was the most merciful end for poor Gollum -an end to his suffering.
I always thought the dynamic between their characters was really interesting, especially when you have Frodo, who was more of Sam's mind in the beginning. But bearing the Ring himself made him more patient with Gollum toward the end.
Sorry, I get carried away with literary discussions XD
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Ah yes. I know...I knew few people like him...though they were not half as good as they seemed at me. I guess that's what startles me about "completely good" people. They do have dark sides...but they enclosed and tame them, and can't even recognize some other human beings as such since they can't get why would some do or say certain things.
Hm...I always wondered whether Smeagol actually chose. When they met him he was perhaps beyond all complete control of himself. He still had a corner of his own in his mind...but most had been ruined and tainted by the ring, "or may we call it "Gollum" as an alternate host. So...I really can't say why, I always read it almost like a possession instead tan as actual choices from the original guy..
(If you happened to feel curious about what I mean or what I see Smeagol like...just check my gallery whenever you like!...It's full of silly-non-pointed humoristic or funny drawings as well...but the serious ones are expressions of what I read when I read Smeagol.)
Oh I know...everyone thinks that way...though I think in the movies they simplified Smeagol/Gollum a lot, turning him into a "I told you he was lying all the time" guy...whilst in the books he was quite helpful and for moments true, despite some horrible things he used to say and the way he behaved...He did betray them in the end...but I always thought he actually considered he had been also betrayed and despised at many points.
Not to blame the hobbits! They think what they think and see what they see, and act in consequence...
Smeagol does also, in many ways. He's ultimately alone at everything. And acts in consequence. I cannot defend some things he did...but I understand them
I always related him to the phrase -"You call me a dog? Yes I am a dog, and a proud one!...Thus call me these fellows, who have treated me like a dog throughout all my life, yet wait me to behave as a noble soul"...
Yes, they share a very good dynamic!...
Oh, nevermind!...I love literary discussions as well!
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I love that, even with the great and good, there are shades of grey. They choose the right even when it's hard, but they often stumble and make mistakes.
Tolkien makes it pretty clear that Smeagol is an addict, so by that time he had lost almost all his self-control (as happens with addicts) . He's continuing to survive not because of the joy life brings, but because he has to get back to the Ring. That's why Frodo and Bilbo pity him, and even Sam does in the end, after he's carried the Ring himself. It's important to note that Smeagol's first act when under the Ring's influence is to commit murder- I always found it interesting that the Ring was able to find that in him and use it. Clearly, before that he was just an average proto-hobbit (from before the time of the great migration) , but whereas Bilbo and Frodo reacted with pity when they first had the Ring, Smeagol went straight to murder. I always wondered about the ramifications of that difference. Smeagol also sought to blame Deagol for the whole murder, (It was our birthday, he should have given it to us) and when he returned to his home afterward, he used the Ring to hurt others, until he was driven out by his grandmother. Then, when he left the Misty Mountains after Bilbo took the Ring, it's heavily implied that while journeying through Mirkwood he killed and ate the babies of not just birds and beasts, but humans. (The woodsmen and cottagers' children) . He was so twisted by then that it was all just to survive, but even Gandalf says that Gollum played at riddles with Bilbo because there was some of his old life left. But Gandalf also made it clear (and Aragorn and Bilbo would know it as well) that Gollum had become a compulsive lair, and refused to take any of the blame for his own deeds. He blamed everyone else for his condition. Originally, he had a nice, comfortable life, and the Ring- and his own choices- destroyed that. However, I don't know that a being like him, coming in contact with an ancient evil relatively close to its birthplace, would have been able to resist it anyway. The jury's still out on that one.
The Ring has an incredible power to corrupt, so it's not entirely clear how accountable Smeagol was in the end. Even Bilbo, Sam and Frodo were affected, though they held out surprisingly long. Of course, Smeagol also physically survived the influence of the Ring longer than any other mortal being probably would, without disappearing into the realm of the unseen, and that says a lot about him and hobbits in general. There was just something in him that the Ring was able to use for its own benefit, and once he committed that first act, the murder of his cousin, the Ring had him. The Ring probably would have done something similar to Bilbo had he not spared Gollum, and the cycle would just have continued.
But yeah, this is why these characters are so awesome! There's so much!
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Yes, in Tolkien and the great myths, that's fascinating...
Still, this time I was referring in part to some people I actually met, whom use to present themselves as "very good hearted and noble"...and once I treated them I found out they would treat you like dirt. Like less than the dirt they treaded on. I even asked once,to one of them, why would he always address to me as an inferior...His answer was "because since you humble yourself, you ARE inferior. If you were any good, you'd say it out loud, and besides you'd identify with some finer thing but that...Disgusting creature you cling on to..."...Yep. That was a fellow Tolkien fan, at a meeting. That day I clashed with him so, because I was tired to have him looking "from above" at me,and even scoffing or cursing at me in mutters whenever I dared saying anything, or whenever given the chance.
Apparently, not shouting about how great one is makes on lesser?...HM...
There I was going, when I meant some "allegedly noble" fellows can be pretty horrible when known deep inside...I can sure be boring...weird...even cruel sometimes...but at least I am honest!...And I would never treat someone as an inferior like that person does...
Hmmm....
What can I say?
I still do read it as a possesion sort of case (despite what Tolkien intended, perhaps it's just me reading it the wrong way) and then...yes, life holds few joy for him at the point he meets the hobbits...but he still does enjoy riddles for a while...something even small as the last flicker of a lit ash still pulses in him, making him still able to laugh or enjoy...if even for a second, and with not-very-pleasant outcomes for him later...
Anyway yes...what drives him onwards is more than anything the dual condition of his want to live...and the lure of the ring.
I really don't know. I always saw it as a fact Tolkien wrote "to explain why the guy would deserve to die"...he becomes the "bad example" in a way...nevertheless, personally I always saw in him a poor fellow who was at the wrong time in the wrong place...sadly accompanied by his cousin who would die for the sake of the plot.
As I FEE him, beyond what is written, Smeagol appears to me as potentially either a good or bad person...
Why?
Searching through his history in order to re-write it from out of his eyes and experiences, I collected he was probably an orphan (since it's implied that his grandmother raised him, he must have lost his parents when very young) Having apparently no siblings, being an only child would drive him even more apart from the uses of his community. Where everyone has parents he has not, where everyone has many siblings, he has none...that would give him a deep feeling of non belonging, and probably that was what drove him towards liking dark isolated places, digging for treasures and secrets, wanting to learn and discover things instead of following the usual simple easy life of the village's fishermen...(Those traits are seen in Frodo also...only son, and orphaned soon...but perhaps Frodo lacked some twisted trait Smeagol did have...or the time played differently on them...I'll explain that later)
So there we have a little oddball. Not a bad kid, but kinda resented about being a loner...though driving himself even lonelier by the feel that nobody likes him. (I've been there...sh*t happens)
This little oddball has one friend, Deagol, his possible cousin in some degree, who pays a bit of attention to him..though he doesn't share either his love for ancient tales and treasures to find. He must have loved his friend...but also resent him a bit for not sharing his passion (apparently Smeagol was very inquisitive, and Deagol was more "normal" for a proto stoor)
Those two go fishing by the day Smeagol is turning 33, his adult-coming,as suggested by many letters by Tolkien...thus, he was still a kid when the ring came to his sight.(Bilbo was 60 when he found it in the cave...Frodo was about fifty something when the envelope with the ring was opened for him to see...Smeagol was only 33...that's make his will and coping a lot lesser since he was less mature per se.) That is, I think, what lost him. Besides his possible feeling of awkwardness towards the others, his general restrained grudges and allover loneliness-among-the crowd- he was way too young to face it's power. I always though that he was simply way too young to cope with it. That's why both Deagol and him fell at it's bare sight. Deagol with only greed...Smeagol with rage. I bet if the ring felt that, he chose Smeagol because he would be far more useful for it as a carrier. Rage is not a good motivation but it is a powerful drive!
There I think that inner voice driven out by the ring played a big part...the guy is clearly self eaten by remorse and guilt, probably at home yet, and definitely in the caves, where he's said to be "obsessed with the murder of deagol" Then...he is aching with the pain of guilt and still he claims right because "deagol should have given the ring to him"...then who's actually talking there? Himself or the OTHER, trying to convince his host of what he's done is right? Who do we ought to believe?...That's a tricky one...
(Heh...I sometimes say things like "I'll kill you if you don't stop that racket!" to a friend that sings lyric music so nice it makes me want to cry...because I can't struggle with the emotion and won't cry in public...yep...sometimes what we verbalize is not what we actually think...)
Hurt?...I only colected he used it to bother them as far as it's told...Not that is nice having a guy around who would secretly listen at your talkings, or steal your things...or such...but I never knew of him actually hurting anyone while that stance...more of "becoming undesirable" I guess in the terms of sneaking around, suddenly appearing and dissapearing, finding out unpleasant things about others, and possibly being rather annoying to them, since he was paranoic with the obsessive idea that the ring would be stolen from him if seen...These were simple people...they wouldn't want to suffer such a weirdo.
Oh...hihih...about the baby-eating...yes...I sadly have a conclusion even for that...If you check my profile photo, you'll see I look kinda freaky. Everyone says my eyes are strange, and I'm overall a weirdo dressed in black. I've been raised half of my life on a small town by the seaside, where "everyone was normal"...Imagine what I am to them...I've been called from "a satanist" to "a witch ". Literally. There are people who are still afraid of me there...just because my way to dress and the fact that I'm quite a loner and I like to take long walks through the forests makes them nervous and unsettled. I am weird to them, thus I have become a legend. A bad one. One person even said "I sacrificed animals and ate them alive"...O.O...I never did anything of the sort. I even got the fame of making sorceries with herbs because I use to pick up acorns and seeds to use on some small crafts...tse...
All that leads me to believe in the possibility that Smeagol was not exactly what people rumored about. Mumbled rumors and "tell told" stories tend to run wider and faster than oneself...thus I would vouch for the fact that those were probably old wive's tales...It's underastandable that, whenever someone saw this small creepy thing crawling in and out the forest and probably stealing food from the houses, they'd assume the worst!
This said: It's just a story, and the original writer implied what he wished to imply...I choose to see an alternate path for this passages...
It's hard for me to believe he'd go THAT far...even deranged as he was...
Then...all this said, I still believe he was torn in two about that. He lied a lot...but again who was speaking? The crueler, more cunning one who was born from the ring and seeked to defend his old carrier through lies and deceit?...Or his original self?...The same goes for the question about choices...did this guy ever consciously choose?...Due to his young age at the finding of the ring...I dare doubt that. Confronted with such evil and power, a mind so young would inmediately break...surprisingly enough, not entirely, but enough to drag him towards a path he would likely have never chosen otherwise.
ACK!!! I went too long with this thing!!!
I'm sorry. I am Smeagol's advocate and shadow I suppose...
P.S...Have you ever considered strangling your cousin?...I certainly did...more than once. I even wanted to do it with all my heart...but law and common sense would disuade me...sigh...I guess I am a horrible person...
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That is a very odd thing to say… I wonder what he could have been thinking? I probably don't want to know. But they're in every fandom, sadly. No one enjoys being despised- but I wouldn't worry too much about it. The Tolkien fandom has many good people in it. Don't bother with people like that- they're not worth the trouble. Remember- when he dies, he can't take any of that with him, so he'll have as much as you do. In the end we're all the same.
The Ring did possess Gollum, but Tolkien makes it clear that the possession is partly a matter of choice. The reason it took so long to affect Bilbo and Frodo, though they had the Ring for a long time, was partly because the Ring was further away from its source and there fore weaker, and partly because neither of them committed serious crimes/sins. The Ring didn't have much chance to corrupt them because they wouldn't let its influence in. But even they were affected in the end, for all that, so the Ring still had power to corrupt on its own. It's highly unlikely, for instance, that Smeagol would have killed his cousin if they'd found a regular ring in the Anduin. That's teh thing- Smeagol was just an ordinary proto-hobbit, who could have been good or bad, and the Ring corrupted him because he gave into anger at first. He's actually quite a parallel with Frodo, what Frodo could have become had he been in the same position. Frodo was also an orphan raised by a relative. Smeagol's grandmother was probably relatively well-off, as Gandalf indicated she was a matriarch of the hobbit settlement where they lived. But even so, being an orphan and raised by relatives would have some effect on the child. That's what's so interesting- Smeagol and Frodo were very similar in that regard, and also in their inherent curiosity. But there was some difference in them that the Ring was able to latch onto. I also think that there is a certain inherent strength of will in hobbits, which is perhaps strengthened in the land where they live. Gandalf mentions that there are "other powers in this world" and he names the Shire as one of those places. Perhaps that's partly what protected Bilbo and Frodo all those years, and by teh time Frodo left that protective bubble, so to speak, he already knew what the Ring was and was prepared against its temptations. (Actually, the Ring was given to Frodo when he came of age at 33, just after Bilbo left the Party for his 111th birthday. But he was in teh Shire, so yeah…it depends on whether or not my assumptions about the Shire's latent power to repel evil actually are true. ) I agree with you that the Ring seems to have used its power to see which of the two was more powerful and chose Smeagol. It seems to be the way it works. It certainly caught both of them by surprise. I doubt either of them were prepared to cope with an ancient, eldritch abomination. In the end, I don't know how accountable Smeagol was. I think that's why Gandalf was so loathe to have him killed- Smeagol was, after all, just a little hobbit against a terrible power.
Oh, trust me, I understand how you feel about being different. Even in a diverse place like Souther California I'm too different. I've been called names, too, most I would rather not repeat. As for Smeagol, it's entirely possible he had nothing to do with the death of the cottagers' babies, but the elves seemed to think so (and Tolkien hinted, and since he's the author… ) But it's never explicitly stated, so it can be taken either way. I doubt anyone would be sorry about all the orcs and fish he ate for hundreds of years. But remember he was willing to kill and eat Bilbo, and only postponed that because there was still a part of him that wanted to hear a friendly voice. But again, the killing and eating of babies was vague, so it could be taken either way.
I get teh feeling that you identify so strongly with Gollum that you take anything said about him as a personal attack. I hope not! I definitely don't mean personal attacks- I just love to discuss literary subjects. You seem very nice, but very sad and lonely, and that doesn't make you completely like him. And we've all been angry enough to cause harm. Every human being is capable of causing harm, but most of us keep ourselves in check. (We also don't have a powerful horcrux gnawing at us) . It's good that you can sympathize with the wretched and sorrowful. Pity is one of the most important personal traits anyone can have. There is nothing wrong with wanting to see the good in everyone, even a creature like Smeagol. There are lots of Smeagols in this world, and they need pity.
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It really is, don't you think?...I still feel surprised by it...but anyway, I did what thought best, just parted my path from theirs...I am much better now, not forcing myself to fit in a group which did not want or need me from the beginning...I guess I was still too young and blinded by my love for Tolkien's writings then...
Nowadays, I don't even ponder on it anymore. I have what I have, and I am happy with it!...Whatever he has, I hope he has earned it fairly, and enjoys it...
Things are okay the way they are, for me...even nonpleasant ones. Those teach me a lot...and the good ones, well, let them come!
Yes there are cruel individuals in every fandom and aspect of life...one must either deal with them as unhurtfully as possible, or simply walk away from them.
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Good and detailed read on the subject! yes, I ponder all you mentioned are likely factors both in favor and detriment of the cause...I mean, the equivalences and differences between Frodo and Sméagol as young hobbits, what they did and did not do, and the influence (or possible influence) of the Shire as a "protective bubble" in spiritual terms...I find your thoughts on this topic very interesting!
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Why, yes...I imagine many of us in this fandom were adressed by unrepeatable names and treated...well, let's just say wronged, many times...but still...Referring to Smeagol, I simply have that feel, that the baby eating stories were more stories and gossip than truth...Anyway, when dealing with fiction, I could never feel offended by anyone who stated the contrary!...Each of us can read the same text and draw different conclusions and feelings out of it after all!
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Oh, well...what would I say about this without shaming myself?...Okay.
I am an adult woman...and I must or should, be sensible about my likings when it comes to fiction. I am very attached to this character, yes, but Iam also aware I am not him, and he belongs to the realm of fictionary beings. This said, sometimes when my emotions get the worse of me, I do act or retort as if anything said about him which I find crude or similar is said against me. That is a silly mistake I commit sometimes. I have been portraying him for too long I guess!
I apollogize if I ever sounded overdefensive or crazy!
Anyway, I never had the feeling from your behalf that you were picking on me or trying to get to my nerves!...You are polite and reasonable, and even if we differ about the topics we discuss, I would always enjoy debate with polite and gentle persons!...Thus, I could not be mad at you in any sense!
Ah yes, I must agree that I am in certain aspects very lonely...and sad, well, sometimes, though more of melancholic mooded usually, and sad depending on what happens in my life at the moment...Nobody is to be blamed on my personal issues or troubles though, so I hope sincerely I have not sounded like a butthurt fan! I try not to be one, for they are the ones who drove me away from the fanmeets and such.
I must admit I find MUCH of Sméagol's traits in myself (Most from his younger self, the gnawing inquisitive way of thinking, the curiosity, the fondness of digging in both earth to unearth things and in history to learn more...here I must mention I was pointing at being a paleonthologist, and failed to get the resources to do the career! ^^)...But then...I am aware I am not completely like him, just as nobody is in all respects the "twin copy" of another...I haven't killed any other human being. I haven't been captive or tortured. I haven't lived for 500 years alone...
All this said...yes, there are (perhaps including me, I think) many Smeagols in this world...and I still believe most of them (us?) need love and simpathy...not to allow anything done...but to understand why, and in many terms, help the ones who can be helped still!
P.S: Nope, not making drug references here...I've never been there...though i'm seriously addicted to buying books and certain foods bring me to awful cravings!...(Only clarifying this because some friends of mine went straightly to the thought on drugs when dealing with the subject of Smeagol...an idea I don't either fancy much nor share...)
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Yeah, very strange behavior. People are so odd sometimes I can't figure them out. I don't have time for people like that anyway, so I suppose I'll never understand them.
I'm glad you find my thoughts interesting and aren't confused by them- I do tend to ramble. My thoughts are only coherent-sounding in my own head. But yeah, not canon, just my take on things.
I'm not adamant on ether interpretation, so it doesn't matter to me too much. I just like to take things and ponder them and pick them apart. I can see both sides, which is probably why I made a dreadful saleswoman. Quite apart from the fact that I think Tolkien would be unhappy to see his books used in shouting matches. He seemed more in favor of reasoned debate.
That's understandable. We find something we love, and attacks on those things seem so personal. I also understand getting into the head of a character because I do it, too. You don't sound crazy to me, just passionate. I only wanted to make sure you didn't take my comments about Smeagol personally. ^_^ I'm glad I didn't come off as angry or anything. I'm also glad we can have reasoned debates- we need more of that in this world.
I hope you can excuse me for the personal comments, though. I hate for others to be sad, but I also tend to run my mouth. I don't always keep my observations to myself like I should. I just notice things about people. Also, I do tend to worry about people thinking they are the characters in books/movies/etc because that seems to happen a lot on the internet. BUt I'm also a champion worrier. I wouldn't take me too seriously ^_^
Ah, I once contemplated paleontology! I can certainly sympathize with Smeagol's traits there. I'm just dreadful at math, so there went that career. But I bet you still love to find things out, in spite of the lack of paleontology credentials. I always thought a modern-day Smeagol would have become a paleontologist. It would suit him, I think!
I can see Smeagol's addiction to the Ring as being like a drug addiction, but really an addiction of any sort that's harmful. I think part of that is the way Andy Serkis portrayed him- he said he was playing off the idea of a heroin addict. Really, anything internal and destructive and addictive works. An addiction to books doesn't count XD
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Sam will protect him ^__^
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My friends have this thing where ok whenever I see Elijah Woods name I yell it out .... they call it a hobbit spasm because I am Frodo in our RPG and hobbit spasm
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HOOOOOB b b iiiiiit saaaappppsssmm
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you can have samwise.. as long as i get frodo.
Frodo: Wtf?!
Me: nothing!
Frodo: ?
Me: hee hee....
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It's hard to choose, because they're all so cute!
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this is amazing! you do such an awesome job on your art! love it so much! go samwise!
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you're welcome!
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I just wanted to let you know that I decided to Feature your piece here: [link]
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Wow! Thank you so much! I linked to it in my journal. I hope that's ok!
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Of course I don't mind! And I might have to hound your Favourites some day to see if there are any more pictures I haven't seen.
LOTR FANS UNITE! *brofist*
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I don't know what you've seen and what you haven't, so have at it!
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