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ShockTherapyStables — Tutorial - Dilutes in Dogs
Published: 2013-04-21 19:22:39 +0000 UTC; Views: 30708; Favourites: 1275; Downloads: 250
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Description
A lot of people in our latest poll asked for tutorials about coloring and markings. We'll be addressing some of the more common coloring mistakes we see, and decided to start with a topic that a lot of people seem to have trouble with: dilutes. Dilutes are a simple mechanic once you know how they work, but if you don't know then they can appear very complex. We hope this tutorial is useful if you want to figure out how to incorporate dilutes into your DARPG art! Also a small section on Merles as well.(Of course, you do not ALWAYS have to follow this tutorial. If you're content with not paying any mind to genetics when you design dogs, that is entirely your choice and you're free to do as you like. But, it never hurts to know!)(
Next tutorial will be all about brindle
Enjoy! Please feel free to leave us any feedback or questions you might have.
Other STS Tutorials: Brindle
Art and Characters (Hera, Uno, Artemis, Whiteface, Castiel, Trinity) © *ShockTherapyStables
Characters (Daeymon, Kaisen) © ~MixedBagKennel and *samuRAI-same
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Comments: 195
youre amazing i love those! its helping so much!
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Hey there, I have a question, although it isn't to do with dilution genes, it has to do with the C Locus!
I'm confused that, say if you have an all white dog (so cece in the C Locus), but that dog also has a bit of brownish color around the shoulders (like a bit of agouti), what gene is causing that? I know the white masks other colors but I can't figure it out.
Also, in the C Locus, I'm trying to figure out how gray occurs (for example a gray sable german shepherd). I think the gray occurs in the I Locus which also controls intensity, but I'm not quite sure?
Thank you!
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So the C locus and the I locus are two different terms for the same genes, which control how dark the red pigment on a dog occurs. It was originally studied using C (chinchilla - C for red, cch for fawn, ce for cream and cw for silver/platinum) but more recently has been more commonly accepted using I (intensity - I for red, i for cream/silver). They both state the same thing, that in dogs darker red colors are more dominate over lighter cream ones, just in different details.
If a dog is all white with some slight brown sabling/agouti around the shoulders/back, it's likely that it's a dog who is genetically silver/platinum (so cwcw or ii) with liver agouti or sable. Red pigment diluted to very pale near-white does not interact with colors the same as white markings like piebald/Irish - it's functionally red pigment, just very, very light.
A grey sable GSD would come about by the dog being genetically very very pale red, like the above example (cwcw or ii). The sable markings are still black, so black markings/shading over a very pale dog = grey appearance. For example this dog www.royalair.org/ziva%20stand.… is genetically the same as this dog www.germanshepherdguide.com/up… , but the second dog has very dark red pigment (CC or II) while the first dog is very pale red (cwcw or ii). All german shepherds are genetically black markings on a red base, it's just up to the individual's genotype if the black is expressed as black or a dilute, and if the red is expressed as red or fawn/cream/silver.
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Thanks so much for your help! Really cleared up some of my confusion!
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Hi!
So I'm just starting to get into dog genetics and their craziness, and was curious as to what Norma and Ruby's different genes mean.
I'm kind of getting into the whole DARPG blind and recently adopted number 3 from this adopt sheet --> grumppp.deviantart.com/art/APB…
I'm guessing that the dog is a brindle fawn, but from there, I have no idea what to do for the genetic make-up.
I saw below that you guys are working on a chinchilla tutorial, and I'm excited to read it because you guys make the genetics into very simple terms that are very easy to understand! I really appreciate any help that you can give me right now as well!
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We are happy to help, sure. So while the design you adopted is very pretty, it is not really a "real" color in dogs. Brindle stripes in dogs are always a shade of black (black, blue, liver, or isabella), and the coat underneath is always a shade of red (red, fawn, cream, silver). You will never get a cream dog with fawn stripes, or a black dog with red stripes, etc. So we kind of need to do a little wiggling in order to make your design genetically viable ^^
I could see this design as being portrayed as either "liver brindle" or "isabella brindle" with the coat underneath being cream/fawn.
This is a dog who has liver stripes www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/…
And ones with Isabella stripes 40.media.tumblr.com/d807cb2ef2… www.kissmycocoa.com/color/Samp…
The design is also portrayed with a black nose and dark eyes - the nose needs to be either liver or isabella, respectively, and the eyes should be a light color (amber, hazel, gold, orange, etc) as dilute dogs will never have dark eyes or black noses.
If it were my design, I'd probably call it an Isabella brindle on cream sable, with minimal white - the genotype being (similar to) Kbrkbr AyAy EE bb dd Ssp tt
Kbrkbr - homozygous brindle, though the dog could carry k (non-brindle) if wanted. It cannot carry K (solid black) as that is dominant over brindle.
AyAy - homozygous sable, dogs who carry darker patterns will show more shading on them, this dogs appears to be a "clear sable"
EE - dog expresses black pigment without a dark facial mask, could carry e if desired, recessive red aka no black pigment shown
bb - dog is recessive blue
dd - dog is recessive liver (liver + blue together = isabella)
Ssp - guesstimating that due to the minimal white, this is a solid dog carrying a white pattern sp (piebald) and can have puppies with varying amounts of white in turn
tt - dog's white markings are not ticked
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Thank you for the help!
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i have a small question about my next litter
my male fav.me/d9wcy6t is an isabella with tan points and white bully
and my friend's female fav.me/d9re217 is a red and white bully
will their pups be all black or all red/fawn?
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Well assuming some things about their genetics, they could have either red/fawn or liver puppies. Because the female has a red nose, that means she is homozygous liver bb. Your male, being an isabella, is also homozygous for liver bb. So all of their pups would also be 'bb' which means any of their black markings (or their entire bodies if they are black) will be liver. Now the female is recessive red and has no black/liver markings so you can get some solid red pups that would look just like her. But you could also get some liver tri-colors, sort of like the male but liver instead of isabella. If your friend decides that the female also carries blue, then you might even get a few isabella pups as well.
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alright thank you!
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will you ever make a chinchilla gene tutorial? :0
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Have one in the works currently, along with one on white spotting ^^
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Hi! I know this is quite an old post, but I was wondering if you posted the chinchilla gene or white spot tutorial? And may I ask how you learned so much about the genes? I'd love to start but I'm not sure where to start.
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Hey there! I've just had a question for my next litter. So the parents are both American Bullies and are each a shade of red. The mother is a light red ghost tricolor and the father is red piebald with tan points as you can see here:rozila.deviantart.com/art/Apol…
So, do you have any idea what colours the pups could have? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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It kind of depends on what you want to classify the color of the female as, since there's technically not a color that is a light red tri. You can have a dog that's a pale red (fawn) color, or you can have an Isabella/lilac tricolor, but you can't have a red dog with red tri markings since that's just not a possible color combination (the points are always a shade of red and the main coat is always a shade of black). So i guess it's up to you if you want to classify her as a fawn(farm4.static.flickr.com/3664/3… ) or as a lilac tri(s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/5… ) . The father is fine as a red ("liver") tri(www.americanironkennels.com/Re… )
Assuming nobody carries any 'hidden' recessive colors, a red tri x red fawn pairing will result in an even mix of red tri and fawn puppies, all with varying amounts of white in between what the two parents have. A red tri x lilac tri pairing will result in all red tri puppies, again all with a variety of white between their parent's patterns.
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Thank you very much! You've helped me a ton
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Alright, I came back to this for a question I have;
I breeding two dogs, a homozygous blue tri stud and a Isabella tri with white female. So all pups would be black, and white but less white than the mother, correct? Thanks!
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Isabella is bb dd, blue is BB dd, so all pups would be Bb dd - blue, carrying liver and isabella. So all pups would be blue tris with a bit of white, yep.
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Ah, ok. Thanks for the help STS!
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Great tutorial, but I'd like to ask something:
What color puppies would these 2 dogs create when bred? fav.me/d9j6tu0 fav.me/d8ob3vi (the male is blue and the female is red brindle, and they are both American Staffordshire Terriers.) If you could help me out that'd be great!
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Really depends on what recessive genes they carry, otherwise it's just kind of a shot in the dark. Does the male carry non-solid or brindle, does the female carry blue or non-brindle? Do either carry tanpoints, recessive red, or liver? Since they're both non-bloodlined dogs, that's completely up to you to decide.
If you were to take them both just at face value and assume the male is homozygous solid and the female carries no recessive genes, all the puppies would end up solid black with irish white spotting.
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Well let's say the female carries liver and recessive red and the male carried brindle, how would the puppies turn out then? Sorry for wasting your time, but I'm pretty clueless when it comes to genetics
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Then you would have an even mix of solid black puppies and brindle puppies, all with some white spotting, no dilutes.
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Okay thanks for the help!
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Do you have any idea what color he is? (there has been no color reseeding) There are no spots on his belly, small spots of brown are showing up on his legs.
mammoththederp.deviantart.com/…
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He appears to be red, with black sable and white piebald. If he's getting spots of color on his legs it may be ticking showing up, it often darkens as the dog ages.
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Yay! Thank you for the answer!
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Have you ever considered a how to tutorial? :>
Like Janine anatomy perhaps or paws because I found this extremely helpful and your anatomy is gorgeous <3
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We're mainly focusing on color tutorials at the moment but we've definitely considered doing a tutorial on different breeds or posing or similar, yes
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I understand completely
but the pelt tutorials are very helpful <3
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This is SO helpful, thank you so much for making this.
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You're very welcome. ^^
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Ah, stupid question: are there delutes of chocolate if we don't count isabelle?
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As far as I'm aware of, Isabella is the only dilute of Chocolate out there. You can sometimes get a "pale chocolate" if the dog is born chocolate/liver and has the gene for Greying. These dogs are born dark chocolate colored, but will lighten as they age.
www.doggenetics.co.uk/photos/g…
www.daretodreamlabradoodles.co…
You can see how these dogs still have the dark liver nose, and some darker pigment around their face, but the rest of their body looks very pale. It can get confused with Isabella, but the nose color is a giveaway. This can also happen with black, blue, or Isabella dogs as well.
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Aha...I see now. Thanks you.
Just was trying to understand what people meant in borzoi's standard.
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Ooooh this is a great tutorial, I didn't know any of this! But I'm still confused about one thing, if a dog is a piebald with merle and looks like the 'dead' puppy in your tutorial, it means the dog is unhealthy?
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No. Piebald and merle are two separate genes that may interact with one another, but the presence of both is not automatically an indication of bad health. Just because a piebald dog happens to have the merle gene does not mean anything is wrong with it. However, when a dog has two copies of the merle gene, it can look like piebalding. This is most common in great danes and pit bull terriers, two breeds that have a marking called "harlequin", you've probably seen it on great danes before. Harlequin is a modifier of the merle gene, meaning that in order for a dog to be harlequin, the dog must also have the merle gene. Merle takes black and lightens it to blue, leaving dark spots. Harlequin takes that dilute a step further and lightens the blue to white instead, leaving only the black spots visible. This is something that is naturally intrinsic to the merle gene.
So no one really understands why as of yet, but because the merle gene has this "lightens everything" trait to it, when two copies of the merle gene are present, the dog tends to be "double lightened" as it were, so dogs who have two copies of the merle gene are often mostly white in color, which may mimic piebalding. However, this is not always the case. The easiest way to tell if a dog is of poor breeding or has two copies of the merle gene is to check its eyes. Dogs with double merle have terrible eye problems, sometimes being born completely without eyes or with eyeballs so small, they are functionless and useless and must sometimes be removed surgically if they are causing the dogs pain. Most double merle dogs are born blind and many are also deaf. Some are terribly cross-eyed, some have meaty membranes covering their eyes, there are a lot of problems that come with having two copies of the merle gene. That is a fair more certain indicator than fur coloration.
To provide examples (I must warn you that these may be a little hard to look at): www.border-wars.com/wp-content… dogs.lokatt.se/blink1.jpg www.nomerlefrenchbulldogs.com/…
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Oh I see! Thank you very very much for this information!
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Wonderful tut! I'm very glad to have stumbled across it. Doing everything I can to learn this stuff.. Though I do have one question! It was said in the tut that 'dilutes only affect black pigment'. So, theoretically, if I had a dog that was kk/EE/BB/dd, the dog would be red despite the Homozygous Recessive Dilution and the Extension? Would there be any difference between that dog and a dog that did not carry the Dilution?
Thank you once again!
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Thanks, I'm glad you found it helpful!
A dog that was kk/EE/BB/dd would be a red dog with blue agouti markings (such as these guys providentialliving.com/wp-cont… www.chercarkennels.net/images/… www.ttsgreatdanes.com/ShawneeX… ). E allows for expression of black patterns, and d dilutes those black patterns into blue - the red pigment in a dog is controlled by different genes that are not related to blue/liver dilution. The difference between that dog and a non-dilute/DD dog would be that the dilute dog would have blue where the non-dilute has black.
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Thank you for your quick reply!
If E allowed for expression of Black.. What controls how the black looks, and pops up if the dog is kk (no black)? Is the Extension essentially useless if the dog has no Agouti? And so... If the red dog has no black on them, does the Dilute just not work at all, and do they become carriers?
This all is very confusing, but I'm hoping to understand it
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No problem!
There are two (main) alleles that control how the black patterns on a dog look - E (Extension) and A (Agouti)
The E allele is made up of 3 genes, Em, E, and e. Em allows for normal black extension, plus a black mask on the face. E allows for normal black extension (no mask). e restricts all black pigment, and makes the dog all red (ee dogs are sometimes called "recessive red")
Dogs with the Em gene: upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia… 2.bp.blogspot.com/-zCEFl89fwoQ…
Dogs with the E gene: www.doggenetics.co.uk/photos/a… www.kwestmals.com/agouti_1_op_…
Dogs with ee: upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia… www.yourpurebredpuppy.com/dogb…
So in order to show black pigment, a dog must have at least one Em or E gene. If they are ee, black pigment does not show. These genes control whether the black shows up or not.
What determines the shape of the black is the A locus. These genes control how the black is expressed. There are 5 genes - Ay, aw, as, at, and a. Ay makes the black into sable. aw makes the black into agouti (sometimes called wolf grey or grizzle). as makes the black into a saddle. at makes the black into the tan-point pattern. a makes the entire black (sometimes called "recessive black").
Dogs with the Ay (sable) pattern: www.americanironkennels.com/Di… www.mousematuk.co.uk/Mouse%20M…
Dogs with the aw (agouti) pattern: www.kwestmals.com/agouti_1_op_… mycaliforniagermanshepherds.co…
Dogs with the as (saddle) pattern: static.ebayclassifieds.com/sta… www.dogwallpapers.net/wallpape…
Dogs with the at (points) pattern: www.dogwallpapers.net/wallpape… media-1.web.britannica.com/eb-…
Dogs with the a (recessive black) pattern: www.sudenblick.com/images/cant…
All dogs will carry E, K, and A genes, but they won't necessarily show. For example if a dog is Kk/atat/ee, it just looks like a plain red dog, but it actually carries the genes for solid black, clear, and tain points. Dogs need to be Em or E for black to show, and kk for the A genes to show.
If a dog is recessive red but is still a dilute (bb, dd, or bb/dd) then the dilute doesn't effect their fur (there can be a slight lightening with the dd gene but it's often minimal, if there at all). However they will still show their dilute with their nose and eye color.
For example, here's a yellow lab (ee) www.yellow-lab.org/yellow-lab.…
He has no black hairs. He has a black nose/lips and dark eyes. He is not a dilute.
Here's another yellow lab (ee) upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia…
He has no black hairs. He has a brown nose/lips and light eyes. He is a liver dilute. If he were EE/Ee instead of ee, he would look like this:
2.bp.blogspot.com/-G0FkWkLgpwA…
The nose/lip color will always match the dilute. So even if a dog is all red in color, if they have a blue nose, you know they're a blue dilute. If they have a liver nose, you know they're a liver dilute. Etc.
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Now how would you get this guy:
www.deviantart.com/art/gideon-…
his body is all white
lol i was really bad in Biology so this is quite new to me xD
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Well I can't see his whole body from that picture, but if as you say his body is all white and only his head in colored, that would make him an extreme piebald. Piebalding (white markings) is controlled by its own gene set, and extreme piebalding (where the dog is almost entirely white) is the recessive version of that. He obviously has some merle on him, I can only see it on his face and ears though, which probably means its affecting a mask (dark marking over the muzzle) and probably some sort of sable (black-tipped hairs on the ears, tail, and back). And then you can see by his brown nose and amber eyes he is a Liver dilute.
So, if you wanted the full fancy name for his coloring, he's an Extreme piebald fawn with liver merle, sable, and mask. So his base color is fawn, with liver mask and sable on top that has been merled, mostly covered by piebald. Very interesting looking dog!
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