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SimonSoys — Asgore on the Swear Jar
#papyrus #undertale #asgore
Published: 2016-12-31 07:27:43 +0000 UTC; Views: 31547; Favourites: 929; Downloads: 70
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...And then there's Asgore, who's a precious dumpling.Asgore, Papyrus (c) Toby Fox
(This is from January 2016.)
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Comments: 116
He's a so cute like, even Papyrus knows what he said is ridiculously innocent. "Vulgar language" omg
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The part when you can't even at this adorableness
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swear jar? was that th part of crossover where papyrus ask the other skeletons money on the swear jar? cause i did see ghost lewis sir danial jack the pumpkin king
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So pure..
YOU SURE DON'T WANNA BE IN MY HOUSE AT DINNER TIME
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I know he wouldn't like my vocabulary I curse like a drunk sailor XD
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Pure, and child massacring sociopath.
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He didn't kill those kids because he felt like it.. Hell he didn't even want to.
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Right? Why is Asgore so popular? He's the worst character in the whole of Undertale!!
But this art is super cute.
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What makes you say that? I think Asgore is the worst since he declared open season on human children even after raising one on his own, meaning he knows they're just like monster children...if not more DETERMINED.
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He didn't really mean it. He just wanted the monsters to have hope, and in doing so, he lost is entire family. Cut him some slack.
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And all Frisk does on a genocide route is defend themself; they only ever kill monsters that attack them first with intention to steal their soul. Doesn't make it right. At least Frisk is a kid and could be argued since they don't know any better (since they have heard horror stories about monsters their whole lives). Most of the fandom doesn't forgive that of them and/or Chara.
He lost his family because Chara and Asriel were trying to bring the underground hope, not him. He declared war on humans in a fit of rage and that's how he lost Toriel.
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Wrong! Frisk clearly hurts happy dummy AND monster kid when they didn't even attack! Oh, and if you talk to Asgore, he tells you HE JUST WANTED TO GIVE MONSTERS HOPE. And he regrets it. He hates it. He misses his wife. He misses his child. He's all alone. Cut the poor fuck some slack!
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You could argue that Frisk isn't entirely sure they won't hurt them; after all, other monsters gladly did. Even so, Asgore has 4 innocent deaths on them, so eh. And again, full grown adult who had a human child. He knew better. Asgore knew that humans are just like monsters. Frisk didn't. Child murder isn't the only way to bring a kingdom hope, Asgore. Maybe instead of murdering the six children, try and reason with them and have them help find a way out of the Underground. That way, not only would he not have to commit cold blooded murder, but new children who fell into the Underground would actually seek him out to find a way back home, and when they did get to the surface, they could all seven explain that the monsters are really good people. If Undertale were real and I learned the king of monsters killed six human children, I wouldn't trust him, dead children of his own aside. Would you?
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Well he certainly didn't enjoy killing you.
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Doesn't have to enjoy it to do it. Psychos feel called to murder; doesn't mean they're innocent.
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WRONG! Psycho is another way of saying sociopath. A sociopath is someone who doesn't feel regret or shame in their actions. Asgore clearly does. Your an idiot. You don't even do your research.
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Um...no. Psycho is short for psychopath. And there is a difference between the two.
Here, an article that spells it out for you: psychcentral.com/blog/archives…
Also note that I wasn't calling Asgore a psychopath, I was merely comparing his murders to murders psychos commit. He doesn't have to enjoy killing you to be a killer. Maybe instead of throwing around childish insults, you'll take a deep breath, use your brain, and come back with a decent counter argument. Ironic you insult my intelligence when you're the one who hasn't made a good point yet.
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I didn't know your brain had that much capacity. Ok, all I can do now is lay out the case. Asgore ordered the death of humans. Dick move, but they DID kill his children and trap them in the underground, and the war DID take place out of fear of the humans. So I think that impulse is pretty fair when considering humans only did wrong towards monsters. It sparked hope throughout the entire underground. But Asgore came to realize his mistakes but was too far in and he felt like he couldn't go back. Besides, Asgore didn't want to kill specifically children, that was never his intention. The fact is that Asgore just payed all the humans back for what they've done. And in the end, no violence had to happen, do you think humans would have done the same for a monster?
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So I'm the unintelligent one when you're the one who turned to anger? Here I thought I was having a rational debate...but then you turn out to be a moron that relies on anger to try and get their point across. Only morons turn to emotion when they can't win a debate.
Um, clearly the monsters are in the wrong too. Humans went to war because they feared that monsters would absorb their souls...so we can rationally (do you know what that means?) assume that a monster had done so before. Clearly the humans were scared of the monsters too; they sealed them all away in the Underground. We don't exactly hunt down creatures that just wanna be friends. Note that dogs aren't endangered, but lions are. Humans warned one another not to climb the mountain for fear of monsters, so even though their lifespans are far shorter (Asriel mentions being around for centuries) the worry is still prominent.
Asgore is clearly an unfit ruler and unfit person; anyone who can raise a child then murder anyone who looks similar to said child has something deeply wrong with them. Supposedly, he loved Chara like his own child, and yet he killed six other children. It's also noteworthy that their traits indicate that at least one was far kinder than even Pacifist Frisk, but that child couldn't sway his heart.
I cannot speak for the humanity of the Undertale world since it never gets a fair shake. The war is arguably no one's fault (again, the humans feared their souls being stolen, a legit fear, so they attacked; the monsters must've stolen at least one soul with less than favorable outcomes since we don't attack other nations without probable cause, but I don't know the whole story). Asriel was carrying a dead child when he came to the humans, so they kinda had good reason to be scared. Chara hated them, but we don't know why, and if the monsters aren't accepted now, there's plenty of good reason to be. Again, note the rotting child corpses in the king's basement. It could very easily be argued that the humans wouldn't accept the monsters even without the bodies, but this discussion is about Asgore's morality. He led to the deaths of six innocents and Sans doesn't say boo to him. And again, unlike Frisk, Asgore is an adult who definitely knows better.
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First of all, I fixed the problem, you can shut up about it now. Second of all, there is a difference between sounding smart, and being an asshole. So let me sift through you're flurry of insults telling me I'm an idiot and find the real problem. Now with part one! Yes that is true, but it was irrationality on there part. The had no proof of a monster wanting to do that. There are lore books in the libraby (yes that's correct spelling for the specific one) Most of them explain the nature of monsters. One of them states monsters REQUIRE friendship and would put that before mindless violence. Hold on to that, we may need it later. So the humans kinda messed up. Oh, and thanks for the other insult. Next part! Again, with the arrogance. Asgore kinda has a whole shitload of contradicting feelings. There are more monsters than humans. HIS OWN KIND!!! Not to mention that the first human (Chara) did end up being the death of Asriel. Also, that's like saying that one dog died so other dogs that looked like the one you love shouldn't die even though they pose a threat. It wasn't a physical threat, it was a threat to monster morale. The whole underground would lose hope if he didn't keep going. And with hope... comes resolve... and with resolve... comes action. Hope means a lot more than you might like to believe. And yea, they did have a reason... But they were all lies... If you see a man holding a girls body with a frown on his face vs a monster, the reactions are quite different. Ending points. Sans is not a complete idiot, he must have made up his mind before taking action (or he was too lazy). 2: Asgore is... God we already discussed this.
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You're the one who chose to be an ass first. I simply followed suit; I wouldn't have insulted you if you hadn't insulted me, and certainly wouldn't have mocked your intelligence if you hadn't (ironically) insulted mine. And it does figure that it would take you time to "sift through the flurry of insults..." even though I literally broke up my comment so that it's easier to read.
It can be rationally assumed because we do not fear what we do not know so much that we attack. If the monsters were truly good people and cohabiting peacefully, why would the humans be afraid? Undertale doesn't really get into the human lore, but it isn't fair to assume humans are the only problem. After all, we have evidence that monsters at least have no qualms slaughtering children (even if they didn't know that Frisk was human, they did know that they were a kid, and still almost every monster FIGHTs them) and far more easily use their magic than humans can. Also keep in mind that only Frisk, who has the ability to bend the laws of reality, is capable of the genocide run. While humans may be more powerful, it is clear that not all of the monsters are pushovers. How many people died throughout the game? Now imagine if that was game over. Based on the dust on the tutu, we can surmise that Integrity tried to fight back against their assailants and was slain. That means that monsters are not simply harmless and innocent. It's interesting that the libraby states that monsters put friendship before mindless violence when, again, nearly every monster you meet you meet because they attack you. And if you don't dodge their attacks, nearly every monster kills you. Not exactly friendly behavior.
True, there are more monsters in the Underground, and if he had never met another human, perhaps his actions would be more understandable. Chara did lead to Asriel's death, but they didn't murder him. In fact, when humans attacked Chara and Asriel, Chara chose to defend them. A similar situation to Asgore, except instead of choosing their species (which were also in greater numbers), Chara chose monsters. They were willing to die to get Asriel to the surface, gather the necessary souls, and free everyone. And they were a child.
Quick question: do you seriously believe a parent's love for a child matches an owner's love for a pet? I've lost family members and pets, and let me tell you, losing a person hurts a heck of a lot more. And if someone's grandmother attacked me, I wouldn't slaughter all the grannies I could, and not just because I lost one of mine. I wouldn't do it because it isn't moral. Even if my entire town was sad, I wouldn't kill a person to give them hope. Finding other means of hope, like our actual governments do after tragedy, would surely work. Especially if the monsters would rather make friends than war, as you've pointed out. Imagine if after Abe Lincoln died, instead of letting the country mourn then move on, it was declared that every single Southerner found in the North would be killed and their body would be left in the basement of the White House. Not exactly a reasonable or inspiring solution, and we aren't even a species that claims to be fueled by friendship.
We don't have any reason to believe that Chara was lying when they claimed to hate humanity...are these the lies you're referring to? They chose to attack the humans that killed their brother. Chara was a child, an important aspect to their character. Even if you want to claim that they are a socio/psychopath respectively, they would have learned their behavior still. Both psycho and sociopaths can often blend into society well even though they don't have empathy and don't bond with others.
You're right; the reactions are different. One is something familiar, the other is unfamiliar and a creature that you fought a war with for fear they'd steal your soul. And ironically, it appears the one holding the child stole the kid's soul. That doesn't make the humans wrong at all. On a pacifist route, the monsters attack you despite there being no dust on your hands.
Yes, this debate has some repetition because frankly, the point has yet to be dispelled. I don't expect you to answer the conclusion; I'm tying my point back to previous posts is all. Also, was there a one somewhere? Your annoyed quip about already having discussed Asgore's age is point two...but there's no one.
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Well played, you win. I'm not going to review this due to its sheer girth. One last thing... Asgore didn't think of this. He saw three facts, His son had been murdered by humans, he had been trapped their by humans and finally... He could escape by killing humans. He regretted it, and still has blood on his hands, but its over. Whats done is done... I suppose that's not enough for you though... www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHzT-n… debunk this if you wish.
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I respect your opinion, but here's my thoughts. First of all there is no proof that Asgore was the one that killed them all since their different items are found throughout the underground. Also, in real life, if aliens or some creature was causing harm to the people of earth, the creatures would be killed by humans to protect themselves. The humans that fell in the underground did have weapons(You find some of them throughout the game) so it is likely that they were causing harm or killing monster kind. It would be wrong of Asgore to just let his people die. Also, Undyne tries to kill humans too, so why does she get a pass but not Asgore? And it's not like Asgore wanted to declare war against humans either. He took the first one of them in(Chara) and made the apart of his family. He could have easily just killed the child and break the barrier to set the monsters into the overworld. But he didn't want to have to kill humans. He also probably knew that the humans in the overworld would probably just kill them all like they did with his son. Also, Asgore didn't want to become a beast with insane power, he just wanted to be himself. Chara's plan to make Asriel a extremely powerful creature ended up getting Asriel killed since he didn't want to kill the humans. From what we know, Chara didn't tell Asgore(or Toriel) about their plan. If Asgore or Toriel knew about this, I am very confident that they would have stopped Chara's plan because they didn't want them to kill the humans just to set the monsters free. And you can't blame Asriel for not stopping Chara's plan to kill humans, because he was just an innocent kid and just wanted to make keep his promise to his sibling. Chara's plan would end up having them-self die, and once Asriel took Chara's soul he would become a beast with insane power. Asgore and Toriel would not want one of their children to die just to free monsters and also potentially have another war. They also would not want Asriel to become a beast with unfathomable power, that isn't the son that they raised. They raised one that loves and cares about people, not one that can destroy anything in it's path. Once Asgore finds out about the death of both of his children he declares war on humans because they just both of his children(they really only killed Asriel, but..) Toriel could have talked Asgore out of it. In Undertale, Asgore says he declared war on humans "in a fit of rage". Obviously he made this decision with very little thought put into it. Toriel is the queen, so she has some power too. I'm sure she could have easily talked Asgore out of it, and made him think about it more. I think Asgore would listen to Toriel because he loves her. In Undertale, Gerson?(The turtle guy) says that Asgore and Toriel were "insufferable together", "Nuzzlin noses, being all cute all cuddly in public." I don't see why Asgore wouldn't listen to loving wife. Gerson also says that "everybody knew that Toriel was really the brains behind the throne" which shows that she probably had to convince Asgore to make better decisions all the time. Sorry that this isn't the most organized. Asgore is my favorite character in the game(maybe it's Sans, but eh, I like most the characters in Undertale.)
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I respect your opinion too; this is all in good fun!
Asgore was the one who declared war on the human race; even if he didn't directly kill the children himself, he commanded their deaths. The "weapons" the children fell down with are basic things children have (sides the gun...the hell is with the gun?) and they could very easily have been defending themselves. I mean, one kid used a tutu and ballerina shoes. We can assume they didn't come for a war. One was declared on them. True, defending one's people is very important, but he declared war. That means monsters like Papyrus, who could easily have befriended them had he wanted to, are encouraged to murder them before assessing the threat. And unlike aliens, creatures we know nothing about, the monsters do know about humans and thus know they are capable of mercy as well as fighting. You shouldn't be surprised when a kicked dog bites back.
Believe me, Undyne gets no pass in my book. However, she was a soldier following orders, and thus has significantly less responsibility. She is clearly uneducated about humans, since she thinks anime is real.
The fact that Asgore raised Chara makes it so much worse that he led to six other children's deaths. He knows better. Unlike most of the rest of the Underground, Asgore knows that humans are similar to monsters, capable of love and hope and determination. He was around a child so long there's no excuses at all for him. Look at Toriel, she too raised Chara and risks her life to protect any like them from her ex. Chara loved the Underground so much they were willing to die for it; why couldn't Asgore have showed the six other souls that mercy? Asriel stated that he had been Flowey for centuries. If Asgore and Toriel had raised the six humans, they would have died and they could have mercifully taken their souls. Honestly, I wouldn't blame humans for killing the monsters; I wouldn't feel safe with them when I learned that their king had six child bodies in his basement. And imagine if one of those children's parents were alive...
There were no guns to Asgore's head. He could have found other means of hope in the Underground. But he made a choice to target any poor human who happened to fall. He could have used his kind nature to lead his people, but instead demanded blood. The way monarchies typically work is that only the member with royal blood is in charge. Based on the fact that Toriel isn't still ruling, we can assume she married into the throne and thus had little to no power. And clearly Asgore didn't, since she left him. Marriages don't just end because someone said something angry. We can assume she tried to convince him...and then children started to die and she couldn't take it.
I hope I covered everything, and don't let this silly debate take away your favorite character! I hope I haven't offended you!
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Once again, I respect your opinion. Thanks for being understanding and providing a logical counter-argument. And don't worry about offending me. It's all in good fun. I think you made very valid points, and I think Asgore's decision was a poor one. But to be honest, their really wasn't any other means of hope for the underground. The fact the Frisk was able to save all the monsters was very lucky, as they wouldn't have been able to if Flowey wasn't so greedy, and wanted all the souls. And the barrier was only destroyed once Flowey got his true form(Asriel) and he was able to feel again. All of these events that led up to the barrier being destroyed were probably not even considered possible before then. And I still don't think Asgore wanted to have to make that decision of war. He holds his head down when he fights Frisk, obviously having regrets. And before the fight, you seem him hoping the you still have things to do before the fight so he doesn't have to fight you. Near the end of them game, when he is about to fight you again, Toriel hits him with fire Magic. Right away Asgore stops fighting Frisk even though Frisk is the last human soul he needs. He is probably happy that someone stopped him from what he was about to do. You could say that he stops fighting frisk, because then he would have to fight Toriel as well, which is probably ture, but it shows that he is perfectly fine with not killing Frisk. In the neutral route, when Frisk gives Asgore mercy after nearly killing him, he is overwhelmed at the fact the Frisk made we be so kind. And offers to take care of them, and hopefully start a family with Frisk and Toriel. He asked you to take his soul before Frisk made that decision, because he wanted Frisk to be free. Throughout the game, you can clearly see that he feels terrible about the decision he made but doesn't want to change it because he wants the monsters to have hope. It is also showed that he just needed someone else from the underground to speak up about it, and speak against his actions. Also, Sans, Alpyhs, and Undyne all know that Frisk is going to fight him, but none of them come with Frisk to try and convince Asgore that they have befriended Frisk. I know this is after some children have already been killed, but why would they just let Frisk decided the fate of the underground by themselves? Going back to Chara now. I don't think they wanted to die for the monsters, I think they just wanted to kill humans. In the genocide route Chara seems perfectly fine with killing every single thing in the underground. And the game says that Chara used buttercups instead of cups of butter in Asgore's tea. And that got him very sick. It's possible that they just made a mistake, but I wouldn't doubt that Chara tried to subtly kill Asgore. Toriel isn't ruling because she ran away into the ruins. She might have not have had very much power, but I still doubt she made very much of an effort to stop Asgore's plan. Toriel was probably disgusted to that Asgore would even think about that decision. If she did try to convince him not to, it was probably in an unforgiving, angerly manner, which almost never helps. And yes, I doubt the children that fell down into the underground just to kill monsters, but all the weapons can be very deadly according to Undertale(Even the ballet shoes). When Frisk falls down, the monsters are generally very kind to Frisk. Most of them don't even know that Frisk is a human. So when the other children fell down, I doubt the monsters really tried to attack them. I think the humans that fell down before most likely were afraid of the monsters, and used what they had to attack, because they thought they were in danger. That being said, there would be some monsters that would try to kill them, and then the weapons would be self-defense. I doubt that most humans would want to live with Asgore and Toriel anyway. Everybody says that the underground is a place with a lot of suffering and boredom. All the children left Toriel despite her warnings that they would likely die. Even IF Toriel tried and tried to convince him not to make that decision, and he still did. Other monsters could have spoken up about it. It seems everybody in the underground wanted humans to be killed. A real life example here:If Donald Trump banned anyone from *insert place here* from the United States, people would speak out against it. And protest it. Asgore is shown to be a lot kinder than Donald Trump, so if his kingdom wasn't happy with that decision, I'm sure Asgore would be more than happy to change it. (Not trying to hate on Donald Trump, I hope he ends up being a good leader for the U.S.). Overall, I think Asgore's decision was wrong, but we can assume that he wants to change it, and would be very happy to if someone spoke up about it. You make a very good point about the underground not really knowing about humans, but when Asgore made his decision, they knew about Chara. I'm sure the "people" of the underground at that time did know that Chara was similar to monsters and capable of love(Even if I think Chara didn't love very much). So they should be at least somewhat informed that humans aren't THAT bad.
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Once more, I respect your opinion and am having so much fun debating! Thank you for being respectful!!
True, Asgore shows trepidation towards killing Frisk...but that doesn't save the other children. If a killer shows remorse after he is caught, he is not spared the jail time. The monsters' lengthy lifespans offer many opportunities for hope: the aforementioned take care of fallen humans until natural death method is still valid, and would lead to humans seeking the king out rather than running away. It would also give the monsters a very important chance to learn about cohabitation with humans so that when they did return to the surface, they wouldn't get into unnecessary trouble. He stopped fighting when Toriel appeared, but that simply means that his connection to Toriel (or fear of fighting her) stopped him. Toriel is at his level, so it could be argued that he simply knows he can't take both Frisk and Toriel and thus turns to speaking rather than fighting.
Perhaps in the neutral run, when Frisk chooses not to kill him, he is put in his place...but at the same time, it was only being at death's door that stopped him. A near death experience changes a person, and offering to raise Frisk after nearly murdering them isn't exactly the best thing he could offer them. He honestly should be overwhelmed with how kind Frisk is; they chose not to defend themself in order to spare his life. This is the lion and the mouse fable played out; the lion had no reason to expect kindness he himself wouldn't share, and changes for the better. However, Asgore was more than a bully, and thus still has some sin to atone for. Get on it, Sans! XD
You have a good point; Frisk's friends should have stopped them, or at least joined them in facing Asgore. However, they cannot be held responsible for a merciless's rulers actions. Perhaps they aren't really good friends at all, but who knows what the consequences are for standing against the king. And, to be fair, they don't really know Frisk that well. Morally, they should have helped, but legally, nothing forces them. Toriel has more weight on her shoulders for those other children's deaths for the same reason (a good adult doesn't let a child go wandering a highway; she should have escorted each child through the Underground), and perhaps she could have tried harder to change Asgore's heart, but his sins fall to him. She had no reason to be patient with him; I can only imagine how furious I would be if someone I used to love murdered one child, much less six. The whole cast, from the Moldsmals to the Nice Cream Guy, hold some responsibility for letting Asgore hunt Frisk. However, at the end of the day, the ruler is the most responsible. He declared war, he demanded souls, and he created the violence.
All right, on to Chara. There isn't any evidence that supports the claim that Chara simply wanted to kill humans. It is true that they didn't like humans, but they could have gone after humans above ground if that were the case. They were best friends with Asriel, thus showing that they did care about others and wasn't simply a socio or psychopath. Also, if their intention was to kill humans, dying is the worst first step to take. Neither child was entirely sure what would happen when their souls combined. In the Genocide route, Frisk is the one killing everyone. Chara is a dead child from hundreds of years ago; they don't start out possessing you. There is a theory that Chara is the narrator's voice, one that I subscribe to, and if that is the case, then they are with you during a pacifist run as well. However, supposing they aren't, then they simply appear after Frisk has killed everyone else. Also, if Flowey's actions are separate from Asriel's who's to say Ghost Chara's should tie to Alive Chara's? They died twice, once of the painful effects of buttercup poisoning, once when intertwined with Asriel. Yes, Chara used these same buttercups in Asgore's tea, but they weren't the only one. Asriel made the mistake too. It even makes their suicide sadder when you consider that they watched their father suffer the effects; they knew what they were in for. Killing Asgore served no purpose. Based on Frisk's adventure, a solitary human child is capable of taking on the whole of the Underground, so if Chara wanted, there would have been some dead monsters in their wake. If they really just wanted power, they could have killed Asriel and stolen his soul rather than die themself; Asgore tells Frisk at the end of the game that they need a monster soul to cross through the barrier, so we can suppose that Chara could have done something with Asriel's. But they chose to die and surrender their power to him.
Based on the items the children had, most of them (Justice's gun makes me say most) probably didn't start the fighting. The monsters are far from kind to Frisk as they make their way to the king; how much damage did they take? Imagine there were no save points and no resets. Odds are, what would have happened? That is the reality the other six children lived through. Nearly every monster you meet you meet through battles, battles where they are going all out trying to kill you. Honestly, Frisk themself is in for some serious PTSD; most play throughs of the game involve them dying and then being brought back to life by sheer will. Even if they didn't die, they were attacked and beaten up by the monsters. And most of them are implied to be adults. Honestly, the best possible ending for Frisk is to leave monsters behind, go home, and get help. Even Toriel burned them with fire then claimed to love them. Sure, the Underground is boring, but that's okay. Once the six children realized they couldn't leave, they would adjust. They would have to live among monsters, and sure, they wouldn't necessarily be happy about it, but that's okay. Killing them early on doesn't change this reality.
A real life example of what Asgore did happened around the 1930's. A man who ruled a country declared war on a race he didn't like, ordered all in his reign to be sent to slaughter. Let's just say history doesn't smile on him. Donald Trump isn't saying that we need to kill everyone from another country; he's saying we don't let them in since there have been terrorist agents from said countries coming over and others who enter our country illegally to benefit from its systems. Asgore isn't trying to block off humans, he's killing them. Imagine if Trump claimed that any illegal alien would be put to death. Bit more extreme. Even suggesting such a thing could very well get him impeached, and rightfully so. Asgore could easily have, without anyone telling him to, taken back what he said, and based on how the kind monsters were so willing to obey when he ordered murder, they would listen.
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You do mention some very solid points here. Once again, I'm glad that it's a respectful debate. But the only reason Asgore declared war is because the humans killed his children after the combined souls. Humans had already attacked and forced the monsters underground so they would suffer. So they have already hurt all monsters, and now they kill his children? Yes, he knows that all humans aren't terrible, since he cared for Chara, but after everything that happened, he decided that he needed to make a stand before the humans hurt them again. It would be one thing if Asgore was killing(or commanding the death) of his OWN people, but he isn't. Monsters and humans are a different species. In real life if aliens(Not illegal immigrants, but extraterrestrial creatures.) locked humans underground, I'm sure humans fight back with no mercy. The fact that Asgore and Toriel took in Chara in the first place shows how kind they are. Humans have caused so much pain for the monsters, but they still both had the kindness to raise the child as their own. When Asgore declared war, he must've felt like that was the only option. So many things were taken from them by the humans. He regrets that decision because he doesn't want to kill anything despite what happened nor have a lot of power, he just wants his kingdom to have hope. Honestly, he probably isn't fit to be the King. But to be fair, he never murdered any humans. It was war, and there is no murder in war.
Now, a little bit about Chara. You say that they chose to die and give power to Asriel with their soul. However, Chara now had partial control over Asriel's body. And at the end of the game, Asriel says Chara was trying to make him fight the humans, but he resisted and ended up dying himself. If Chara killed Asriel and taken his soul, then Chara wouldn't be that powerful, so no they couldn't really use that plan. This is shown when you kill a monster in the genocide route. Even with Frisk kills a monster as strong as Toriel, they still aren't much more powerful then before then. A monster has to take a human soul to become a beast, not the other way around. So Chara had to die and make Asriel take their soul so they could have so much power. And Chara might have been able to kill one or two humans before they ever fell down the mountain, but they would be arrested soon after if not worse.
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You have some great points, and I'm happy this debate is so logical and respectful!
Yes, humans and monsters had been at war. Honestly, if not for Chara and their lengthy lifespans, this alone may have made Asgore more sympathetic, since they would be an unknown species. However, unlike aliens and humans, the monsters know what humans are. Supposedly, they've shared a planet since their creation, so much so that their king cared for a human child. Asgore claims himself that he declared war in a fit of rage, not because it was the last thing he could do. Instead of going back and changing his mind, taking back the war, he leaves it out there. A war isn't fought by children, and humans didn't declare war back. It was an ambush at best, and a savage one at that since the enemy cannot run away.
Chara didn't like humans. They shared a body with their brother and saw humans rushing to kill him. Of course they took action, and since they clearly had issues beforehand (why were they on the monster infested mountain? why did they have a knife? what sad things was Chara planning before they were caught??) they resorted to violence rather than their words. We aren't sure what happened to Chara, but children don't hate what they come from unless something has gone very, very wrong. Neither Chara or Asriel knew that Chara's consciousness would remain after their soul was absorbed, so for all Chara knew, they would completely die. Even if they wanted power, dying is a bad place to start. On the genocide route, killing more and more monsters leads to a child being able to destroy everything. All Chara had to do was build power, something a royal child could have done if just a little bit clever (there aren't even bodies to hide as you build up to killing the powerful royals).
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Asgore made that decision in a fit of rage, that is true. I'm just saying He didn't really have any options. He could of made that decision in a fit of rage, because he felt that was the only thing he could do. Even if he regrets that decision, I understand why he made it. The previous war "ended" with the humans trapping the monsters underground. But after a war like that, you can understand why most monsters would hate humans. Honestly, Chara was lucky that the Dreemurrs' house was the first building they came across. They might've been killed if they landed by a different monster. The Dreemurr's took them in as the own, even though one of them could have just killed Chara, taken their soul, crossed the barrier, and started killing other humans. He obviously doesn't dislike all humans even after what some have done, but what other choice could he make? That's probably why he didn't change his declaration of war. He tries to get seven souls even though he only needs one to get to the surface, and then he could take 6 more souls and become extremely powerful. Toriel even says "You would rather stay here, merely hoping another human never falls down." Because he doesn't want to have all that power and kill all those humans. He's trying to prolong the fact that he will have to fight all those humans on the surface when he gets seven souls. Many things show that he was indecisive, and not fit for being a king. He has a troubled spirit that is in need of guidance. He wants to help his people, but he doesn't want to do what he thinks would help his people. I feel bad for him. Honestly, I feel bad for all the dreemurrs. They had a happy family, and it was just destroyed. Maybe Chara did just want to help monsters with their "suicide", but even if their plan worked, and they killed those humans on the surface, Toriel ad Asgore wouldn't be happy with that, especially Toriel. They'd also be heartbroken that one of their children no longer had their body, and the other one was a horrifying beast with both of their souls. No matter what the reason behind Chara's decision was, it devastated that family. Neither Chara nor Asriel told their parents about this terrible plan, and that ruined Asgore's life, and it hurt Toriel's a lot too.
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Again, the easy choice would have been to team up with the human children and try to find a solution together. They would die long before Asgore, so not killing them and instead being friends with them would have benefited everyone. The monsters as a whole are not war hungry; they all befriend Frisk no problem. The fact that Frisk, a small child, was able to keep their cool and make friends with their assailants shows that the game considers it possible. Another choice would be to build on the Underground, make it more like a home. So long as they're trapped, try and find the positive. Not an easy task, no, but a worthwhile one.
Perhaps Chara was lucky, but after them, the other children should have been luckier. Even if the monsters assumed humans were evil before, one lived among them as one of them. They proved that humans are more similar to monsters than different, and was even mourned when they died. Asgore has no excuse for killing the others, especially since they did not start the war.
Sure, he's a troubled soul who has no idea how to rule. But he's in charge. He made the choices that led to the deaths of six innocent children. The LV he's earned will reflect in his soul, and now, when they go to the surface, their king is a child killer. Imagine if Frisk had been able to say that no one hurt them, that everyone was kind to them and that there weren't six human corpses in the basement. Humans aren't unreasonable, they would be touched and at least give monsters a shot. But now, there is blood to be answered for. Who knows what happens to the characters after the credits? We can only hoped they're resealed and not exterminated. Consider what a genocide Frisk can do. Now imagine it's a vengeful adult who's lost a child.
I feel terrible for most of the Dreemurrs too! I think Chara being a good child is more tragic, personally; they wanted to help so bad and everything fell apart. They had to watch their brother die and supposedly now haunts the Underground, watching what Flowey does knowing it's their fault. Asriel was a naive child, a follower who wanted to help his sibling so much he was willing to listen to whatever they said, and now lives as an emotionless husk. Toriel was a loving mother who watched her own babies die, then her ex husband slaughter six others. But Asgore...my pity ends. I see that he's a tragic character, I do, but I just can't get over what he's done. To compare to another series, he's the Purple Guy of the FNaF world...but with one extra body under his belt. DX
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I feel the need to say this again, thanks for being reasonable and having civilized discussion.
I don't think it would have benefited the monsters. They probably wouldn't be free, as they are now. "Humans aren't unreasonable, they would be touched and at least give monsters a shot. " Considering they started a war against monsters for pretty much no reason, I wouldn't be sure about it. "Again, the easy choice would have been to team up with the human children and try to find a solution together." I disagree with that. That wouldn't be the "easy" choice. The kingdoms hopes and dreams had just been taken away again by humans, so that would be a hard choice to keep supporting humans that fell down. "The monsters as a whole are not war hungry; they all befriend Frisk no problem" A lot of the monsters didn't even recognize Frisk as a human. And the ones that did tried to kill them. Sans would have killed Frisk right away if it wasn't for that promise to Toriel. Yes, eventually the monsters became friends with Frisk, but so did Asgore. It really seems pretty easy to befriend Asgore as a human. As soon as Sans, Papyrus, Toriel, Undyne, and Alphys came to the scene and showed Asgore that they were friends with Frisk he had a happy expression. And this was before the barrier was even broken. When Chara and Asriel died, it was humans the killed them. So while Asgore knows that not ALL humans are bad because he raised one himself, a lot of them have done so many things that ruin the monsters way of life. You can see why Asgore made that decision in a fit of rage right afterwards. And despite all that happened, He still doesn't WANT to kill any humans he just wants monsters to have hope. And monsters did actually gain hope after his decision.
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And thank you! It's great to have a peaceful, non-rage inducing discussion over a great game! You've been great to chat with!
I would argue it would; even though it wouldn't be as fast, having human souls that weren't slain would mean that a) the monsters could learn about the modern human world through the children, b) wouldn't have any blood on their hands when they reemerged and could claim that yes, they were good to the children (they even have cameras for evidence collecting), and c) would lead to less monster deaths as well. Look at the barrier as a waiting game, and one the humans would join in with. Who knows, maybe the humans would even breed, if they fell close enough together.
Even though the monsters have left the Underground, their fight is far from over. The king has some serious PR problems on his hands, and considering that the humans' last contact with the monsters was in a war, we can assume they would already be a bit cautious.
The humans started a war with the monsters for fear of having their souls stolen. This indicates to me that it happened at least once before; otherwise, what is there to fear? Also, humans don't tend to fly into war for just one incident. Either the monster government backed it (see 9/11 and Pearl Harbor) or it was happening more frequently. We don't know much about the war, but war is seldom one-sided.
You're right, perhaps "easy" isn't the right word. "Logical" suits it better. I can't really imagine what the monsters are going to face now, but I would guess the humans aren't going to listen to battered ambassador Frisk. I work with kids, and it is almost certain that Frisk would let it slip that they were killed by the monsters.
You have a point about the monsters not recognizing Frisk as a human...and that may lead to more issues. Seriously, that happy pacifist ending keeps getting bleaker and bleaker! X'D However, becoming friends with Asgore isn't really easy. Keep in mind the personality traits that each soul has. The two that stand out to me are Patience and Kindness. They were slain too, presumably being kind and patient to their murderer. Only because Frisk can reset did they manage to save themself from his trident (since you have to go back).
Of course the humans killed them; Asriel was carrying the body of a dead child. Not only is this a terrible sign of what's to come (x6) but it's completely rational. From the human's points of view, an adult monster (who would think that he was a kid?) had slayed a child, stolen their soul, and now approached with the corpse. Asgore had every right to be heartbroken, but had no right to declare war on all of humanity. He wasn't an average person, but a king. He could have even changed his decree, consulted others (like his wife, who clearly kept a straight head), and avoided this whole thing. You'd think if he'd truly wanted to stop the murder, he would have tried.
Their HOPE may have risen, but so did their LOVE. The monsters technically are always trying a genocide route.
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Well, we got to take into consideration that the humans in Undertale do not represent humans in real life, they probably think quite a bit differently.
I think you make some good points about taking care of all the humans that fell down could be beneficiary, but the monsters have lived with the humans before, so I think they already know a decent amount of stuff about them. Maybe they start knowing less and less as the years go on though as some monsters pass away. If Asgore didn't make the decision, they might have never been able to leave the underground. If Frisk declines to be the ambassador in Undertale, Papyrus ends up being it instead, with Sans, Undyne, and Alpyhs close behind. And the credits show them living on the surface normally. So I think they're all fine for now, but that definitely could change, as it's happened before. About the personality traits, we still don't truly know what those humans were like. Plus, once again we don't know if Asgore was the one that fought them. If someone with those said personality traits went up against someone like like Undyne, they would have no chance. I'm sure if one of them got to Asgore and just said "I don't want to fight" that might even be enough to stop him. But if they offered him butterscotch pie(If they still had some that Toriel gave them) or offered to talk about all of this over tea, or even just given him a hug. I honestly think he wouldn't be able to fight you if they did anything like that. Considering he doesn't even really want to fight. "Of course the humans killed them; Asriel was carrying the body of a dead child. Not only is this a terrible sign of what's to come (x6) but it's completely rational. " Yes, for sure. I don't blame the humans here at all. I never said I did. I'm just saying the fact the humans were the ones that killed his children, and everything else that happened provides why he would make the war descsion."He could have even changed his decree, consulted others (like his wife, who clearly kept a straight head), and avoided this whole thing. You'd think if he'd truly wanted to stop the murder, he would have tried." This is a tough point to argue against, but I'll do my best. Like I said before, I personally think the only reason he didn't change his decree is because he is too concerned about his kingdom. He's worried about what everyone wants right now, rather than his own beliefs, or what maybe best for the future.
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Undertale provides very little in terms of the human culture; however, based on the items the monsters use and associate with humans, coupled with the fact that we are supposed to use Frisk as a proxy, we can assume that they are the same (if not a bit more accepting, based on Frisk's choice in gender pronouns).
Undyne believes that anime is an accurate description of human history and Papyrus and Monster Kid cannot identify Frisk as a human child. Papyrus and Monster Kid I understand, but Undyne is the head of the Royal Guard and she has no idea how humans work. This shows me that there isn't much education when it comes to humans and could benefit from some living educators. Besides, considering that they have been down in the Underground for hundreds of years, they don't know what's changed. Think about how much our culture has changed in the past hundred years. Now imagine if someone from 1916 was thrust into our world. Technology along would blow his mind, much less the changing social norms. Those six children could keep everyone up to date.
I worry more for Frisk because they have been through a traumatic experience...no way they come out unscathed mentally. T.T I like to think that they somehow pushed beyond the scars, but think about children who have been beaten in real life.
The souls are labeled as Bravery, Patience, Integrity, Kindness, Justice, Perseverance, and Determination. We only get to meet Determination, but we see how their soul impacts who they are. They are so determined they stand up to Photoshop Flowey, Hyperdeath Asriel, and/or Genocide Sans and refuses to give in. This determination is what fuels them to continue their journey and gives them their powers. Thus, I assume that the other children were fueled by what they are named after. This means that Kindness was unable to change the hearts of those around them, and Patience couldn't wait them out. You do have a good point. Undyne may have been the one to kill the children, but that blood goes to Asgore's shoulders. Maybe Kindness just never reached him to try and change his mind? Who knows? It is impossible to tell which monsters have the LV from the murders...though that would be an interesting detail.
Frisk comes with the pie and Asgore still attacks them. Pacifist Frisk doesn't get a chance to speak for themself, but their lack of murder proves that they don't want to fight. Even just dodging his attacks and trying to reason with him doesn't lead to him surrendering; he still tries to kill them until the player is forced to take action.
Sorry, I got a little passionate about the humans killing Asriel and got a bit off topic. 
By the way, I really respect your debating skills! You're great at combating points logically and making intelligent, insightful points.
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To be fair though, Frisk didn't offer Asgore pie, but rather ate it right in front of him after the battle started. It does still weaken his attack and defense by half though, so even that had a big effect on him. "Pacifist Frisk doesn't get a chance to speak for themself, but their lack of murder proves that they don't want to fight." Well, I don't think Asgore knows that they haven't killed anyone, and Frisk can kind of talk. But they don't really do much to keep the fight from happening. They only say they don't want to fight once the fight has already started. "but how can he reason with the parents of the children he slayed? He's on the surface now, and he's got grieving parents to deal with...and more powerful ones." Okay, first off, IDK if I said it before but those children climbed Mt.Ebott knowing the dangers of it. I doubt their parents really cared about them. There's a good chance that those children were trying to kill themselves, as sad as that is. You don't just fall into a cave without a reason, unless you are just that clumsy and or stupid. Even if one or more of them was an accident, the parents would just think that the child died from the fall. Unless Frisk told humans that monsters tried to kill them, and they killed others, I don't think any human would even know. Earlier you said that monsters have been in the underground for hundreds of years(Idk if that's true or not), but if it was, that just means that the parents of those children would already be dead anyway.(Unless humans live an insane amount of time in the "Undertale" world.) Now back to the top, " however, based on the items the monsters use and associate with humans, coupled with the fact that we are supposed to use Frisk as a proxy, we can assume that they are the same (if not a bit more accepting, based on Frisk's choice in gender pronouns). " Considering they started a war with monsters just because they worried worry about what they might be able to do, I don't think they're that accepting. But it's hard to really know, because everyone is different."Undyne believes that anime is an accurate description of human history and Papyrus and Monster Kid cannot identify Frisk as a human child. Papyrus and Monster Kid I understand, but Undyne is the head of the Royal Guard and she has no idea how humans work." Undyne was able to recognize that Frisk was a human right away. There is plenty of information on humans and the war throughout the Underground. I just think she hangs out to much with Alpyhs. And Papyrus does know that you are a human. He calls you "human" all the time.
Thank you, by the way. You're a good debater too. Undertale definitely is a game that leaves a lot of room for debate.
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The game doesn't give you the ability to plead for your life right away, nor is there a "give" option for the items. That leads me to believe that Frisk can't quite argue for themself or hand over the pie to try and plead for mercy. It is true that it is possible that Asgore doesn't know that no one has died, but considering the small population in the Underground, it seems to me like a death would catch some attention. Either way, he shatters your ability to be peaceful (not sure how that works) and forces you into violence.
True, the parents may all be dead...I didn't think of that. However, as a species, humans are defensive of their young and there are definitely child corpses in his basement. No way that information wouldn't get out. Plus, the humans made the barrier: they know that seven human souls are required to break through. Eventually they would ask where the other six souls came from. We don't know for sure that the parents didn't care; assuming that hundreds of years have passed, it's possible for six kids to make the same devastating mistake. Either way, even if their birth parents didn't care, humans as a whole would. Look at events like Sandy Hook. We didn't exactly look favorably on that, and most of us don't know anyone from the school.
Frisk would have some mental scars (and physical ones) and people would want to know what happened. Again, I work with kids, and weeks and weeks after getting hurt, kids recount the tale of a paper cut and show off the band aid. Frisk maybe could be trained to keep their wounds quiet...but someone would notice when they reemerged.
I say that the humans are more accepting because Frisk goes by gender neutral pronouns; society in our world really don't know how to handle that. Again, we don't fear things for no reason, and the threat of having our souls stolen came from somewhere.
Undyne believes Alphys's lie that anime is human culture. Imagine if I tried to tell you that this (www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMEFRm… ) was an accurate portrayal of African culture. Odds are, you wouldn't believe me. Undyne does believe that anime shows human history. She believes that this (www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECME0t… ) is what she can expect.
Also, Papyrus doesn't know what you are until Sans tells him. He is more distracted by a rock. Only after he is told does he start calling you human...and he's a "human catching fanatic."
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"The game doesn't give you the ability to plead for your life right away, nor is there a "give" option for the items. That leads me to believe that Frisk can't quite argue for themself or hand over the pie to try and plead for mercy. It is true that it is possible that Asgore doesn't know that no one has died, but considering the small population in the Underground, it seems to me like a death would catch some attention. Either way, he shatters your ability to be peaceful (not sure how that works) and forces you into violence."
- I'm pretty sure the only reason for all of that is because it's a video game, and it would be anti-climatic. The destroying of the mercy button is just for dramatic effect. Frisk can in reality, do whatever the want to in that fight. If they wanted to start singing all-star by smash mouth they could, but it's a game and options aren't endless.
Even if the humans did manage to find out that six of them were killed, I don't think it would change much. I doubt that they would expect the monsters to take care of them.
"However, as a species, humans are defensive of their young and there are definitely child corpses in his basement."
There lot of humans wouldn't care very much. Most of them were killed a while back. And once again, I don't think they'd except the monsters to treat them well. And at least all the dead children have tombstone. I'd guess that the tombstone says something about they child along with Rest in peace.
Perhaps Undyne doesn't know much about humans, but I'm saying throughout the game, there is a lot of information about them. Undyne could always just ask Asgore about humans anyway if she didn't want to read. She knows enough about them to know what they look like, and know that they can be a danger which is apparently enough for her.
Yeah, maybe Papyrus doesn't recognize you as a human, but maybe he does. It's hard to tell honestly.
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A good theory...but the problem is that Undertale actually gives you the option to solve problems nonviolently. If the goal was to create a climax, then it was successful, but within the contexts of the universe, it means that Frisk didn't have the option to solve the problem. You can ACT, but Asgore's heart is not swayed. He will continue to attack you even if you talk. Only Toriel can stop him.
Perhaps humans wouldn't expect their young to be taken care of, but they wouldn't accept the monsters knowing that they attacked children. They would be rightfully scared for their children. Integration would be much, much harder.
We live in a country that persecutes our politicians for things that happened years and years ago. We live in a world constantly looking for scandal, and that would definitely spread to monsters. Also, what can the tombstones say? Asgore didn't know those poor souls. He simply used them.
Again, think about how little monsters really know about humans. Sure, there are books, but those aren't as modern as the children, don't have the insights or know the norms. Reading about Greek mythology, we can assume some things about the people, but actually speaking to a Greek person from the time period would show us so much more. Now imagine we wanted to join the Greeks.
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"A good theory...but the problem is that Undertale actually gives you the option to solve problems nonviolently. If the goal was to create a climax, then it was successful, but within the contexts of the universe, it means that Frisk didn't have the option to solve the problem. You can ACT, but Asgore's heart is not swayed. He will continue to attack you even if you talk. Only Toriel can stop him."
-Even so, that still doesn't change the fact that frisk could try to get on his good side BEFORE the fight starts. If eating a pie can make him lose half of his strength to fight frisk and defend their attacks during the fight, it doesn't seem like it would be that difficult to just convince him to not fight before the fight was already started, considering all the other obstacles Frisk got through.
Well, I'd guess that humans killed monster children when they started the war against monsters. And then they forced them to live in terrible conditions. So it seems like the monsters would be more afraid of the humans and what they could do again, than the humans would be of the monsters.
Even with all of this, the ending of Undertale shows that the monsters and humans seem to be getting along better. I've said this before, but when Frisk doesn't choose to be the ambassador, Papyrus, followed by the other main characters end up doing it for them. And the ending is still the same. So humans seem to be fine with the monsters for now. Perhaps they are separated though because we don't see any humans next to the monsters in the overworld. That would seem logical; humans would designate some land for all the monsters to live.
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What I'm saying is that it is impossible to talk before the fight; within the context of the game, Frisk can make any choice available to them. Even weird things, like calling Toriel "Mom" then flirting with her. Frisk cannot speak before the fight besides say that they are not ready to fight, so we can only assume that they are not able to defend themself verbally. Besides, Frisk is a child; they should not be responsible for comforting an adult.
We cannot know what happened in the war or what war crimes were committed; considering how open monsters were to slaying the other six children, if anything, they are the more likely ones to have killed children to use their souls. That aside, we cannot speak for the humans. If Asriel is to be trusted and the game takes place over hundreds of years, then we must keep in mind that humans still warn their children not to go near Mt. Ebbot for fear that their children would be slayed. Sure, maybe the monsters are more scared, but the humans' fear is nothing to sneeze at. It is the equivalent of people nowadays being scared of things like vampires like they were in the past, so much so that we still buried people face down with mouths full of seeds. We don't, we evolved past those fears, but the humans of Undertale didn't.
We don't get much of an epilogue for Undertale. Even with an ambassador, there are PR problems. Papyrus, as sweet as he is, did canonically beat/try to beat the daylights out of Frisk. It doesn't seem reasonable to me that the humans would just give the monsters land...maybe they make their residence on the mountain? Besides, we never get to see what the humans think...maybe it's just a ticking time bomb.
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"Frisk cannot speak before the fight besides say that they are not ready to fight, so we can only assume that they are not able to defend themself verbally. Besides, Frisk is a child; they should not be responsible for comforting an adult. "
-Well, the game doesn't give you an option too, but still, it seems like Frisk would be able too. Yes, they shouldn't be responsible for comforting an adult, but look at what they've done throughout the game. Undyne wanted to kill them, and simply sparing her wasn't working. Frisk had to run away, and eventually found a way to befriend Undyne. Someone like Asgore is more emotionally unstable than Undyne, it seems Frisk should be able to do something to make him reconsider their fight. Frisk can get through almost anything with their Determination, but you're telling me that they can't even change Asgore's decision to fight, even though this is the same guy that can't even look at Frisk while fighting, shows and says that he truly doesn't want to fight? It honestly seems like the fight with Asgore is for climatic purposes for Undertale. Maybe Asgore shouldn't need Frisk to convince him not to fight. If he really doesn't want to fight, then he just shouldn't. But Asgore says he only fought to give monsters hope. He's putting his people's concerns above his, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. It just didn't work out very well. You could say that he isn't telling the truth, and I can't say for sure that he is, but based on what all we know about him, I don't believe he is lying. You could say that no matter what, there is no excuse for having six humans killed. Well, monsters aren't responsible for humans. They have no obligation to treat them well. Why should they treat humans well, after all they did to hurt them. But Asgore still took in Chara, the first human to fall down, and raised them as one of his children. You could say that Asgore knows that humans aren't all bad because he raised one himself, and yeah I'm sure he does know that not all are bad, but a big portion of them ruined monsters lives. Also, what really shows that Chara was nice? The tapes in the true lab seem to point to Chara being a mischievous child. At the end of the game, Asriel says something similar to "Maybe Chara wasn't the best person", however, someone like you(referring to Frisk) is the friend I wish I had." Correct me If I'm wrong, but I'm pretty darn sure he said something along those lines. Still, that doesn't prove that Chara is evil or anything, but maybe they weren't that close with the dreemurrs.
-About the ending, we don't truly know what happened once monsters reached the surface, but it does show the living there. So it seems that things are working out okay, at least for a while. Frisk can choose to live with Toriel on the surface, so if the humans are okay with one of their own living with a monster, I think the two species are getting along better. However, like you said, it could just be a ticking time bomb until humans and monsters start fighting again.
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Well i for one, have to just bring this up,...WHY ARE YOU GUYS DEBATING ABOUT THIS?! I for one, to state my own opinion don't like asgore that much either, but I'm not saying I hate him, I'm just saying they could have done more with his character. Thats my opinion, nothing more! Same with HedgehogsandBats, if they don' t like Asgore, then let them keep thinking that! You can't truely change a person no matter how hard you try! The only thing you can do is to respect them and think what YOU want to think, not what they want to! Now if you'll excuse me,.. I'll be making more memes thank you very much! Have fun getting TRIGGERED!!!!!😛😡😠🐶pup!
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