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Published: 2022-05-22 06:25:28 +0000 UTC; Views: 7827; Favourites: 13; Downloads: 0
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When one partakes in Vs. debates often enough, certain bad arguments show up rather often. As a Star Wars fan and debater, one of the worst of these is Vader lowballing. I've already debunked the "Vader is weaker than TPM Jedi" bullshit here:Anti-Vader Lowballing by Spider-Bat700 on DeviantArt
But there is also the painfully ubiquitous claims of "Vader is slow" and "Vader is weak to lightning". So its time to debunk both of these:
BS Claim #1: "Vader is slow"
False. This one can be neatly disproven by invoking his actual feats:
According to Ferus Olin, Vader, even as of 18 BBY (just a year after Revenge of the Sith), is faster than anyone he's ever seen move except for Yoda. As Ferus was a Jedi of the Prequel Era Order, he would have logically seen many Jedi exhibit superhuman speed, making this an excellent accolade:
It happened before he could get out another word. Faster than an eyeblink. Faster than he'd seen anyone move, anyone except Yoda.
-- Last Of The Jedi: Secret Weapon
He kills Roan Lands before Ferus Olin can react, indicating that he could have speedblitzed the latter:
"He is a former associate, yes, but --"
It happened before he could get out another word. Faster than an eyeblink. Faster than he'd seen anyone move, anyone except Yoda.
The lightsaber hadn't been there, and then it was, and the lightsaber was a blur. Vader moved without seeming to move, and the lightsaber sliced into Roan, straight into his chest. Straight into his heart.
-- Last Of The Jedi: Secret Weapon
He'd stood by and watched, too slow to react, as Darth Vader had casually flipped his lightsaber and ran it through his best friend, his partner, Roan Lands.
-- Last Of The Jedi: Against The Empire
Vader dodges an enraged Ferus Olin's attacks:
Ferus heard Amie shout, but he couldn't focus on anything but his own need to plunge his lightsaber deep into Vader. He whirled and attacked again, but Vader again was gone, moving with a speed and lightness that was surprising considering his body armor.
-- Last Of The Jedi: Secret Weapon
Vader moves with such speed that he doesn't seem to be there when an enraged Ferus Olin attacks him:
This was it, then. The final confrontation.
He was ready. His rage was ice and fire.
He charged.
His first blow was easily parried. He came at Vader again. Again. Circling, jumping, vaulting past him, turning. Each time his lightsaber came toward him, it was eilher deflected in a shock that ran up his arm, Vader simply wasn't there.
---
Ferus leaped over a gaping hole in the floor and attacked Vader again, but his lightsaber cut through empty air.
-- Last Of The Jedi: Reckoning
Ferus was also seemingly empowered by a Sith holocron during this fight, which should have enhanced his speed:
He had everything he needed to defeat him, didn't he? He had the Sith Holocron for strength, Vader's true identity in his hand, his own rage. With those tools, he could do it. The Emperor had told him he could. Ferus thought quickly. He wanted to pick the battleground. Someplace that would unsettle the former Jedi.
-- The Last of The Jedi: Reckoning
Vader comes out of nowhere in front of Ferus Olin:
Vader came out of nowhere, raising a gloved hand. Ferus felt himself lifted up, over Vader's head. He couldn't breathe.
-- Last Of The Jedi: Reckoning
Superhuman leaping:
Vader leapt, his powerful prosthetic legs carrying him to the top of a broad but short flight of steps in time to see Shryne sprint across the bridge at Jedi speed, motioning to his accomplices to move Zar through the gate.
Vader leapt again, this time to the bridge, and to within only a few meters of Shryne, who spun about, dropping to one knee and firing repeatedly. This time Vader decided to show Shryne whom he was dealing with. Holding his lightsaber to one side, he raised his right hand to absorb the blaster bolts.
Clearly astonished, Shryne remained on one knee, but only briefly. In an instant he had passed through the gate and was shouldering his way through the crowd outside the wall.
Vader's final leap landed him just short of the rampart. Over the heads of the milling beings, at the forward edge of a landing platform, a woman with gray-laced black hair was gesturing frantically to Shryne and his cohorts, who were already hauling Fang Zar up the platform steps.
All too easy, Vader told himself.
Time to end it.
-- Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader
Vader dodges Roan Shryne's lightsaber blow by leaping, and then lands behind him, in spite of Shryne possessing tremendous speed:
For an instant it seemed that the blade was going to pass clear through Vader's knees, but Vader leapt high, half twisting in midair and coming down behind Shryne.
-- Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader
As tenuous as his contact with the Force sometimes was, Shryne was still a master with a sword, and almost thirty years of training had honed his instincts and turned his body into an instrument of tremendous speed and power.
-- Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader
He deflects blaster fire from all sides:
Wings uplifted, the shuttle made a rough landing on the tier, bolts from Wookiee blasters careening from the fuselage. When the boarding ramp had extended, Appo and his stormtroopers hurried outside, Vader right behind him, his ignited blade deflecting fire from all sides.
-- Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader
Vader performs a lightning-fast underhand sweep:
Lightsaber grasped in both hands, Vader took a single forward step and performed a lightning-fast underhand sweep that almost knocked Forte's lightsaber from Shryne's grip. Spinning, Shryne regained his balance and raced forward, feinting a diagonal slash from the left, then twisting the blade around to the right and surging forward.
-- Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader
Vader and Starkiller swing their blades so fast that they are visible only as blurs:
Finally, Starkiller saw an opportunity. They were exchanging rapid blows along the edge of the buckled platform, blades swinging so fast they were visible only as blurs. Vader's defenses were impenetrable; his lightsaber seemed to arrive a split second before Starkiller's, every time.
-- The Force Unleashed 2
He moves his lightsaber faster than the human eye could follow:
Faster than a human eye could follow, Vader's lightsaber was up, activated and moving. Grammel's slashed form pitched wildly, stumbled backward and tumbled over the side of the crawler. There was a lull as the stunned driver looked on in terror.
-- Splinter Of The Mind's Eye
He swings his lightsaber so fast that it becomes nothing but a blue circle:
"No," Vader assured him, "no. You overestimate yourself, child." The Dark Lord drew himself up to his full, awesome height. "I have finished playing with you."
Swinging his saber until it was no more than a blue blur in the dank air of the temple, he leaped straight up into the air. It was more than a jump, less than levitation. Out of the blue circle of energy he flung the saber.
-- Splinter Of The Mind's Eye
He draws his lightsaber faster than thought, waves it invisibly fast and deflects at least a dozen blaster bolts while caught off-guard:
The faint click of metallic weapons reached his ears. Faster than thought, Vader drew and ignited his lightsaber. In the same moment, small openings appeared in the walls and ceiling, and hidden blasters fired. Energy beams rained down on the Dark Lord and his soldiers. Stormtroopers cried out as blaster bolts shattered their white armor.
At least a dozen bolts streaked toward Vader himself. Moving faster than the eye could follow, Vader's lightsaber blocked them all.
Except for one.
The last blaster shot slipped past his saber and glanced off the Dark Lord's armored shoulder. Circuits snapped and sizzled. Looking down, Vader saw that the energy beam had sliced a thin hole in his armor and reached his skin. A tiny stream of blood trickled down his armor and dripped onto the stone floor. The Dark Lord let out a low growl and covered the wound with his gloved hand. The wound itself was only a scratch, but he relied on his armor's power to keep him alive. Now that it had been punctured, he would have to have it repaired.
More blasters fired.
-- Galaxy of Fear: Clones
He casually dodges/parries Aurra Sing's attacks, and seemingly moves faster than her, to the point that Sing sees him move preternaturally fast:
Her fist never made contact. Raising his right hand and bringing it around in a swift arc, Vader blocked the blow and sent the body behind it flying across the room. As she flew, a startled but still wholly self-aware Sing tucked and rolled. She hit the opposite wall hard, bounced off, landed on her feet, and immediately came at him again.
“The reflexes of an animal,” Vader murmured. His lightsaber hung at his waist. He ignored it, his fingers going nowhere near the weapon. “That’s what the Empire needs: a few more well-trained, domesticated animals.”
“Domesticated? I’ll show you who’s domesticated!” She leapt high, kicking out, and in midthrust somehow bent sideways to kick harder with her other leg.
In a movement preternaturally fast, but which somehow looked almost languid, Vader ducked, reached up, and with one gloved hand lightly tapped her in the middle of her back. A serious thrust catching her in that position could have broken her spine. The Dark Lord’s touch was more of a caress. He was letting her know what he could have done.
Landing in a crouch, a feral expression on her face, she raced at him again, low this time. Her speed was startling: a droid would have been hard-pressed to match her acceleration. She dropped low to the floor and swung her right leg around in a powerful circle sweep. Her intent was to take his legs out from under him.
-- Coruscant Nights II: Streets Of Shadows
Credit goes to this for the feats: Darth Vader Respect Thread (Part 1) - Gen. Discussion - Comic Vine (gamespot.com)
I really don't think any more need be said on this score. I could of course point to other things, like his fighting other superhumanly fast characters with no great disadvantage in speed, but I don't think there's much need. The above evidence clearly shows that Vader is in no way slow.
"BUT THAT ISN'T THE MOVIES!!!"-Inevitable reply from lowballers and hypocritical EU haters. To which I will say this: neither are Grogu and Ahsoka. When in a debate, you can't accept and reject EU material by no standard other than your own arbitrary one.
And as it happens, Disney Vader is no slouch in speed either:
Vader was forty meters from her. He stood up straight, towering over the crew near him. He was looking right at her, his lightsaber held at his side, and she could feel the weight of his regard pressing against her like a punch. He exploded into motion, moving toward her at preternatural speed, his strides devouring the deck space between them. Crew scrambled out of the way at his approach, his dark form knifing through them.
She raised her blasters and took aim, shooting as fast as she could pull the triggers, scribing the air between them with lines of red energy. Vader didn't slow his sprint and his lightsaber was a blur as he came on, deflecting her shots in all directions. A few came back at her. One hit the pallet and sent tools skittering along the deck. Another scorched the bulkhead beside her, but still she fired.
The crew in the corridor panicked, scrambling in all directions. An officer got in Vader's way, slowing his approach for a moment, and Vader tossed him aside with his free hand as if the man weighed no more than a child.
Isval! Eshgo said from behind her.
Vader was twenty meters and closing.
She was shouting, firing, but her shots could not get past the line of his lightsaber. She didn't understand how it was possible, until her own words came back to her: Vader was not a man.
-- Lords Of The Sith
and:
The freighters opened fire, writing thick lines of plasma onto the air. The shots churned the ground, destroyed trees, heated the air of the clearing; one slammed into the chest of a Royal Guard and vaporized all of him save for his helmet.
Lost in the Force, Vader anticipated the shots that would have hit him, saw the appropriate angles of impact and deflection, and used the rapid spinning of his lightsaber to turn first one, then a second, and then a third shot not into the tree line but back at the ships, the heat and energy of the blaster shots driving him backward, warming the hilt of his weapon, a heat he could feel even through his glove.
-- Lords Of The Sith
and:
Beak was shooting, too—Namir could hear the sound of energized particles scorching cold air across the hall, but he didn’t dare look. Vader didn’t hesitate or fall. Instead, something appeared in his hand between the pulses of crimson light and suddenly he was holding a weapon, a blade of coherent energy that danced with a twist of his wrist. If Vader had been protected by a force field, it appeared no longer necessary: his energy blade deflected bolts impossibly swiftly, humming and buzzing and crackling as it swept aside a storm of fire.
-- Battlefront: Twilight Company
and:
Vader stepped from the lift and used the Force to augment his speed, sprinting through the smoky, crowded corridors. He saw a Twi’lek repair crew ahead, four men and a woman. They navigated an antigrav tool-and-parts pallet through the corridor, and nothing about them looked suspicious. He didn’t care. He ignited his lightsaber, and when he did, the Imperials in the corridor parted before him, wide-eyed, confused.
The Twi’leks had only a moment to register his approach before he cut them down in rapid succession. He left five corpses and a hall full of gawking troops behind him as he pelted onward.
-- Lords Of The Sith
and:
She looked up, saw the V-wings turning sharply to come back in on an attack vector. They must have found something along the top of the quarry at which to shoot.
Movement outside the ship caught her eye, and when she saw the source, it caught her breath.
Lord Vader strode heedlessly through the crossfire, cape flowing out behind him, his lightsaber cutting the air before him, deflecting dozens of blaster shots back at the Twi'leks, killing one, another, another. He did it all almost casually, as though his mind was on other things. The black lenses of his helmet were fixed upward, at the rim of the quarry.
-- Lords Of The Sith
and:
Repelling blaster fire and moving his blade fast enough to turn the air red:
Those V-wings are coming back around, Goll said, firing down into the quarry at Vader, who was sprinting across the quarry's floor, coming on so fast that Cham would not have believed it had he not seen it. Isval had both pistols out and aimed, firing red lines at Vader. Cham was shooting as fast as he could, too, but Vader's blade was faster, deflecting every shot, sending fully half of them back at Isval and Cham and Goll, causing them to duck and cover.
When Vader reached the steep-walled side of the quarry he bounded up, caught a hold on some protuberance or other, crouched, and bounded up again.
That's impossible, Goll muttered, but he kept firing.
Isval knew better. She'd seen what Vader could do. Nothing he did surprised her.
And now he was coming for them.
They kept firing, leaning out over the lip of the quarry to fire down the steep side, but Vader's lightsaber turned the air red before him and none of their shots so much as touched him. He leapt from one spot to the next, ascending, pausing only for a moment upon landing to tense before leaping again and ascending farther.
-- Lords Of The Sith
I think the point is made. And again, please no "BUT THAT ISN'T THE MOVIEEES!!!" BS. You can't invoke that and love The Mandalorian and whatever parts of the EU you like at the same time. That ain't the way it works.
BS Claim #2: "Vader is weak to electricity"
This contention is honestly unsupported by a careful look at what happens in Return of the Jedi alone, to say nothing of the greater EU. Yes, Vader was mortally wounded by Palpatine's lightning, but he still took a full body electrocution long enough to kill the Emperor, and even afterwards did not immediately expire, living long enough to say his good byes to Luke. He was not instantly one-shot by the lightning.
Furthermore, Palpatine's Force Lightning is exceptionally powerful. That Vader could withstand a full-body electrocution from the lightning of Palpatine himself for several seconds would suggest GOOD pain tolerance Vs. electricity. Yet people routinely talk about Darth Vader as though he's a Flying or Water Pokemon and any random lightning user, no matter how puny, can beat him. This is false.
The Starkiller Clone's Force Lightning is powerful enough to, at max power, not just kill humans but turn them into dust. What happened when Starkiller's Clone went at Darth Vader in an absolute rage because he thought Juno was dead?:
Star Wars: The Force Unleashed 2 Walkthrough - Light Side Ending - YouTube
Funny how, for all his supposed weakness to electricity, we see here Vader taking a truly obscene amount of electrical abuse and coming away from all of it neither dead nor KO'ed. His armor does not even appear to be seriously damaged. Yes, he is defeated and imprisoned, but that is not the same as being killed. And again, this was an absurd amount of electrical punishment and damage he took from a Force-User who when going all out as he was here turns normal people into dust with his lightning. The idea that any random user of electricity can beat him is ridiculous. If anything, Darth Vader's showings versus electricity suggest he is actually very resilient to it, not exceptionally weak.
TFU II's other media sources besides the game proper (like novelizations) support the showing:
A burst of lightning arced from Starkiller's fingers. Too late, the Dark Lord raised his lightsaber to catch the attack. Lightning crawled up and down his chest plate and helmet, provoking a painful whine from his breathing apparatus. The servomotors in his right arm strained.
Starkiller had only a split second before his former Master repelled the attack. The Force flowed through him. Droid parts and debris rose up and spun around the room. With a harsh rending sound, the metal wall burst outward, letting in the fury of the storm. But even in the grip of his passions he knew that there was a difference. He was intimately familiar with what being driven by negative emotions felt like. His original had been a slave to the dark side until Juno and Kota had shown him how to be free. That legacy remained even now. He would choose the emotions that ruled him. He would not be a slave to them.
The dark side tugged at Starkiller, and it was hard to resist. He hated his former Master. He feared for Juno. He doubted the very fact of his existence. Killing the man who had created him would go some way to solving at least two of those problems. The temptation was very strong. Vader's blade caught the edge of the lightning. The Dark Lord began to straighten.
-- The Force Unleashed 2
and another one:
And when Vader forced Starkiller onto his back foot and raised his lightsaber to strike him down, Starkiller fired a lightning blast into the side of Vader's armor that was so concentrated, even the new insulation couldn't absorb it.
The Dark Lord stiffened, betrayed by his extensive prosthetics. The distraction lasted only a moment, but it was enough. Starkiller knocked his blade out of the way and moved in to strike.
-- The Force Unleashed 2
In summary, Vader is neither slow nor is he the Sith equivalent of a Flying or Water Pokemon. The overwhelming amount of evidence completely contradicts these ideas.
I rest my case.
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TheObsidianTalon [2024-05-06 20:51:22 +0000 UTC]
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