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Published: 2012-04-03 08:08:22 +0000 UTC; Views: 682786; Favourites: 2160; Downloads: 0
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by techgnotic The recently announced changes to the core mythos of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and the backlash from fans over the ending to Mass Effect 3 have ignited an incredible discussion about the rapidly evolving “collaborative” relationship between producers and consumers of videogames, movies, and similar “products.” Now it’s exploded beyond the secure borders of top news publications, gaming and entertainment websites. Looks like this long-bubbling cauldron of traditional ways and means, modern tech, web economics, core beliefs and future shock has finally boiled over... The gaming industry, and gaming media, is wrong to label upset consumers as ‘entitled’ or ignore the They don't "owe" you anything. They make a product, and then you decide if you're going to pay for it. Since many of you think it's okay to download anything you want for free, even that second step isn't a guaranteed part of the process anymore. But it's a very simple transaction. They make. You consume. … Even so, you are not actually owed anything beyond whatever entertainment they produced for you in the first place. It’s the question roiling the genre arts sparked by the release of Mass Effect 3 and speculation about changes Michael Bay may make in his reboot of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Should a video game creator rework a game’s ending if enough fans are dissatisfied with the original? Should fans’ responses to rumors about projects-in-planning be a major consideration in the creation of those projects? In this article I contend that it’s not simply that the gaming and movie industries are mistaken to dismiss Let me make another important point. I’m always annoyed when the “they make – you consume” contenders try to moot or obviate the whole discussion of producers and consumers by referring to movies, games, songs, etc. as mere “entertainment”. When I eat a cheeseburger at Umami, ride a rollercoaster, or laugh at a joke in a late nght talk-show host monologue, But movies, videogames and music are different. We “invest” ourselves greatly in them. Ask any young fan who thrilled There is no such thing as a singular fan reaction. Art is an interpretive experience. What you read in Moby Dick, No person other than the artist can make his or her art. Art is the manifestation of one man or woman's vision for a In my personal experience, listening to the feedback of a rabid fanbase can be a double-edged sword. Say your film or TV show is But the flip-side is, ignoring the early adopters or original fans can be to your peril. Often, film and TV executives are far removed Personally, I think the best storytelling is the product of a strong, single voice. I think it's important for creators to listen to Author/Creator of “Diary of A Wimpy Kid” The makers of Mass Effect have, I imagine quite by accident, found themselves suspended over what they must find a frightening abyss, with There have always been editors, censors, critics and all the other intruders necessarily a part of commercial publishing. And the “input” of public Having an open and sincere dialogue with fans has become an integral part of our business and our books. We value their passion CEO/Publisher of IDW Publishing While I think there is a lot of merit to the idea of listening to the core audience of any given franchise. I think "caving" too Dickens never would have made the mistake of incorporating his readers’ ideas throughout a novel’s chapters and then written a final chapter Hardly. The new technology driving instantaneous feedback and a greater demand for reader participation is simply forcing writers and visual The new paradigm of feedback-fed conception, production and distribution will take a while to establish itself on the still “Wild, Wild West” In the end, as always: yuumei , alexiuss and vesner are creative, visual and narrative storytellers who, with well over a million Writers have editors, but who says the editors can't be the audiences themselves? If I were writing a story mostly for my own Author/Creator of Knite & 1000 W0RDS I believe in altering endings, as long as the fanbase demands it, but not in a way that the original book/game/title is heavily Author/Creator of "Romantically Apocalyptic" People were disappointed with ME3's ending, not just because the developers promised something completely different, but because Co-Creator of Off-White Graphic Novel Dave Elliott and Jordan Greenhall are acute observers of the deviantART community and its impact. Being in the comics industry, you are acutely aware of two things: 1) that every corporate character has a history Author/Creator - Weirding Willows It is no stretch to recognize that the nature of a civilization is tightly linked with its form of media. In the modern day, where interaction on a global level happens in seconds, involving the audience while a work is in progress seems to be the best way to ensure success, so long as the writer makes an effort to consider all of the feedback they get, in addition to considering what story they intend to tell themselves. Feedback is a tool, sharpened by the instant communication and social networking options made available today; but like any tool, if wielded improperly it can deface a work of art as much as redefine it. There will always be astounding stories that pay no regard to what an audience wants and are all the more richer for it. And I'm bloody thankful for that…I certainly care for the opinions of my readers, and I have kept them in the front of my mind during one story or another. People who create to be consumed would care about pleasing the audience, people who are consumed by their creation quite frankly care only to please themselves. There is certainly a delicate balance between considering input from outside sources and creating something how you, as a writer, imagine it to be. However, that fine line doesn't make the input any less meaningful. As a visual artist, have you ever experienced being pressured to alter an artwork, either by a dealer to make it more “salable,” or by your watchers, critics, or friends? As a writer, have you ever experienced being pressured to change an important part of a story, either at a prospective publisher’s or editor’s insistence, or simply because of a reader’s impassioned entreaties? As a reader or viewer (of movies, TV shows, videogames, art, etc.) do you feel a sense of entitlement giving you the right to not only criticize but actually demand changes be made to a disappointing work? Do you feel this entitlement is based in your great investment of both money and time in the work? Or do you feel this entitlement is based in your great investment of your head and heart in a particularly resonant storyline? As a writer or visual artist, is the connection between you and your audience important enough for you to want to make a change pleasing to them? As an online reader of Knite, Romantically Apocalyptic, or Off-White, is there an increased value or special connection you experience in being able to connect with the authors of your favorite works-in-progress and contribute your feedback? Does the ability to offer comments, suggestions, criticisms, and encouragement bond you creatively to a property in a way eclipsing passive fandom? Does Fan art and Fan Fiction created around an online story with author/reader interactivity become more of an integral part of the property than traditional offline fan art tributes? If you played ME3, how did you feel about the ending? TMNT or TANT?
The Future ofStorytellingHas Arrived
Should you listen to your audience?
The Contenders
investment of fans beyond simply spending their hard-earned cash.
vs.
disgruntled fans as nuisances deluded with a false sense of “entitlement” – I actually contend that commercial
storytelling across all media should increasingly incorporate community feedback as an essential element in a
project’s success. Fan influence might alter a project by 5% or 60%. It’s all in the balance of how fan feedback
is utilized in the process.
I am partaking of an “entertainment”. These are those momentary pleasures in life that help you relax or give you a cheap
thrill – and they are instantly disposable.
to vicariously inhabiting one of the characters in the Hunger Games. Dick Clark once rightly said that music becomes the
“soundtrack of our lives.” Movies have always been (and now, too, videogames) the alternative “religions” or mythos that
we choose to identify with, and by which we often define and direct how we think about our lives, sometimes to an extent
exceeding actual religions or ideologies. What I’m saying is that the “psychic stakes” in this current dispute are a little
higher and more vital to our culture than it just being a “consumer complaint” situation.
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles by Zlydoc
From TheArtist GodsOf The Genre
and what I read in Moby Dick, are different things. That is very much one of the joys of the arts. We don't have a singular
response. There's a quote which states, 'All art aspires to the condition of music,' and that's because music is infinitely
interpretable. Who would want to conform an artist's vision into something else?
better world. And, hopefully, that vision will inspire generations to create their own art. That's just the way I see it.
CliveBarker , as a uniquely modern renaissance man, is especially qualified to comment on our topic. Only Stephen
King rivals his fame atop the charts of popular fantasy and horror fiction. As a novelist his books include "Abarat", "Imajica" and "Thief of Always". The Candyman and Hellraiser films were based on
his writings. But he is also a renowned visual artist, his paintings and drawings having hung in prestigious fine arts galleries.
He has been creatively involved in videogames, comic books, films and even costume design. He has produced films as diverse as
Gods and Monsters and The Midnight Meat Train. His perspective is that of an absolute original.
based on preexisting material like a comic. On the one hand, you have to be careful not to adhere too closely to the source material.
What's right for one medium (a comicbook or videogame, say) may not necessarily be right for a film. And vice versa. Secondarily, when
thinking about a film or TV show, you're talking about million or even tens of millions of viewers (as opposed to, say, 40,000 comicbook
readers). You are making a mass-market adaptation, so the broader audience may or may not be amenable to certain conceits.
from their actual consumers. Many of them no longer see movies in a public theater. More still, have never set forth in a comicbook
store. To some executives, there is literally no differentiation between, say, Superman and some small-press indie comicbook. They
perceive all comicbooks to be the same. They may have no understanding of the source material's DNA. I can't tell you how many times I've
had an executive suggest a change that I knew, in my gut, would send the fans screaming. It's hard to explain that to an executive,
sometimes. It's truly a gut-check kind of thing.
David Goyer provides invaluable perspective, having mastered every facet of the genre arts narrative. He is a
screenwriter (Dark City, Batman Begins, The Dark Knight, Man of Steel) who has also written for TV, comic books and videogames. He is
a film director (Blade: Trinity, The Unborn) and producer (Blade II and Trinity, Ghost Rider: Spirit of Vengeance). He is a novelist
(Heaven’s Shadow). Heaven’s War, the second book of his sci-fi trilogy, is unleashed this July; The Dark Knight Rises, the film sequel
from his original story, is in post-production; and his newest creation, Da Vinci’s Demons will debut soon on Starz.
their fans and to make adjustments along the way, but I'm not so sure that a collaborative effort can create a singular vision. I think a
creator should not only write to please their audience but also to occasionally surprise them.
Rue - The Hunger Games by Patsie
So what’s really going on with theMass Effect 3& TMNT showdown?
one foot planted in the old way of doing things, and the other foot toeing the unfamiliar terrain on the other side of the yawning chasm. They
encouraged fans to change the outcome of the game with their own decisions – but then largely ignored those decisions. Is this really a dispute
over creator’s rights vs. fan entitlement – or is it about how technology’s new tools are fundamentally changing commercial story narrative creation?
readership has always factored in as well, with some artists cursing it and others embracing it. Rather than write “take-it-or-leave-it” novels,
complete at time of publication, Charles Dickens was famous for creating his serialized stories a chapter at a time, published weekly of monthly
in magazines or newspapers specifically so he could gauge readers’ response to each chapter before writing or revising the next. Great Expectations
is certainly the product of Dickens’s brilliant compassionate mind and expert writing talents – but it’s also to a tremendous extent a collaborative
creation with hundreds of “contributing authors”!
Mass Effect 3 how it should've ended by Hellstern
ThePublishingPerspective
and input, so direct conduits like social media have helped us form a solid bond and bring us even closer in what is already a
tightly knit industry.
much to what fans want can lead to a watered-down product. Sometimes fans think they want something and as soon as they get it, the
franchise suddenly loses its dramatic tension. The bottom line, for me, is that sometimes there's a groundswell that is too loud to ignore.
If the majority of your fanbase is upset by something you've done or clamoring for a plot point that has been ignored, it would be
silly to dismiss it out of hand. But creators should also be wary of taking every single critique of their project too seriously.
Co-President and Co-Publisher, Ardden Entertainment LLC
Comic Book Writer, Flash Gordon and Phoenix / Founder, Macmillan Films
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles by SkyFinch
So Here IsThe Point
completely at odds with all those ideas. The Mass Effect 3 mistake was to encourage player “revisions” to the storyline – but only as a gimmick
rather than committing to this new reality as an integral part of the evolution of the narrative. Any “narrative” today, to be commercially viable,
will have to be “written” for the full spectrum of storytelling demanded by the evolution of web production and distribution. Stories must be full
spectrum narratives, able to fit themselves to tellings as videogames, comics and graphic novels, traditional novels, feature film and television
and Internet productions (live action or animated). And all these iterations of a core story will be subject to constant fan comment for revision
and extension. This is the brave new world that Dickens would have embraced as liberating rather than destructive of his authorship, the tool of
“reader” feedback having now become an instantaneous and continuous global information stream that will propel forward those who learn to navigate
it, and drown those who fear a “loss of control” in uncharted waters.
So is “authorship” doomed?
artist/creators in other art forms to face new realities and make tough decisions about how their artistic expression is going to be distributed to the planet.
Every time a painting or journal is posted on deviantART it has the potential to be experienced by a thousand times the number of people who had access
to anything written by Charles Dickens in his time. And be instantly commented upon by those people. Personal artistic expression and connection
has been liberated as never before. But the conundrum remains: No artist has to ever alter or revise an artwork, but then again, no artist has to
ever make a penny from his or her art. Writers, and all artists, must find the spot on that “art vs. pay” continuum where they are most comfortable
and functional. There can always be art for art’s sake, unintended for sale, but there is now a radical new way of becoming a successful and
world-popular commercial storyteller. And the new way heeds the feedback enabled by the new tech from word one.
Internet, but it will provide producers of content-driven stories with a real security in the commercial success of their properties – rather than
the increasing chaos they are currently falsely fearing. In the end “authorship” will always be bestowed upon the artist individual who most
commands respect as the one whose efforts most connect with us, the readers or viewers, regardless of any input from feedback or cuts by editors.
Writers need not fear a degradation of their work, nor their becoming mere typists transcribing the public’s wishes.
True talent and true vision will win out.
Charles Dickens by JuanOsborne
Deviant Artists AlreadyEmbracing the Futureof Storytelling
reads each for their stories on deviantART, enjoy an unprecedented relationship with their online audience. Their input is informed
by their status as artists already participating in storytelling’s new paradigm.
enjoyment, then I have no obligations to please the audience. However, if I am creating something with the main purpose of
marketing to the masses, then my work should reasonably meet their expectations, and the best way to do that would be to listen to their opinions.
edited, but rather in the way in which the 2nd story of the title continues. For example, if the protagonist dies in the 1st book,
he can be somehow brought back to life if the fanbase really really wants to read a 2nd book about him. Without this alteration,
one of the greatest books I've read called 'The Golden Calf' would not exist. Personally I'm very heavily influenced by critics and
fans, so if my work is lacking in some regard, I update it or try to improve on it.
players didn't just watch/play this story – they were an integral part of it up to that point. Every player who spent their time
playing all of the three games created a strong bond between themselves and Commander Shepard to a degree that, in a way, they all
became Commander Shepard. We all want to believe that our actions can change our fate and the fate of the world.
with certain aspects of that history carved in stone, and 2) these characters have a strong, ardent following that, if
you are going to change them, it had better be good, or you'll know about it via Twitter, Facebook, and deviantART. I
will no doubt face this myself 10 times over with "The Weirding Willows," which merges timelines and histories of more
than a dozen beloved, classic characters. Whilst being as respectful of the characters and their histories as possible,
I won't let that stand in the way of what I want to do with the possibilities represented. I'm looking forward to the
feedback I expect from this one.
It must be understood that we are undergoing a media transformation quite as substantial as the invention of written
language. As a consequence, we should expect social media (or, better, what will come to be known as Transmedia) to reshape
our world in deeply profound ways. This movement from center to edge, from author to community, from broadcast to interactivity,
is a fundamental. We will be seeing it literally everywhere, including art. Especially art - as we come to discover that one
of the core threads of this transition is a (real) aestheticization of life.
Mass Effect 3: At Any Cost by Arkis
Massacre of the InnocenceGeorgie Porgie threw an orgy
just outside L.A.,
where Jack Be Nimble grabbed his thimble,
outing him as gay...
Little Jack Horner bought Time Warner
before the bubble burst,
though Jumping Jack Flash saw the crash
and liquidated first...
Jack said Jill was taking the Pill
to ward off impregnation;
the Three Blind Mice have lobbied twice
for victim's compensation...
Little Miss Muffet had her tuffet
liposuctioned out,
and L
I Have Hope I have Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. I have to remember to breathe every time those words come, I don’t want to believe it. I still can’t believe it. I remember the first time my counselor looked at me and told me that my depression and anxiety might be something more. Great, I thought, What could possibly be worse than this?
Firstly, PTSD is not a disorder that only affects our war heroes, though that is what it’s commonly associated with. My own first thoughts were: “isn’t that a disorder for war veterans or someone who witnessed war first-hand?“ The truth is there are many causes for Post Traumatic Stress
QuestionsFor the Reader
Related content
Comments: 3125
sakurasoul In reply to ??? [2012-04-14 15:15:25 +0000 UTC]
You're right in that point: "As an artist/writer, you are the catalyst for creation and destruction."
If you want a good book to read, go to Borders, but if you want a game, go buy a Tetris game or play Clue. Your point in the target audience brings us to GTA, NeedForSpeed, Mass Effect and the rest of bloody games such as NoMoreHeroes, that are good games, but meant for adults and not teenagers. The reasons are simple to understand: the children that made what the game industry is today; they grew up and need other types of stimulations.
The controller's functions are biased by the WiiU (another Ipad) and the concept of gaming has somehow changed dramatically to a mental freakshow; when in the times of Atari, it was something so simple, it could be decided with 25 cents and really have some fun inside of the arcade.
The word "success" in the game industry is kind of hard to understand. It all depends on what they want: money, or a good story. If they keep changing the writer's influences on a story; they can lose material full of potential if they influence the author way too much by the audience and the big companies. There will always be exceptions, like J.K. Rowling and Harry Potter videogames?
The authors must be conscious and aware of what they want to do with their story and should resort to game companies only if the story is not linear or makes a perfect complement inside of a game related world; to feedback, if their story was made to be edited in the first place.
In The Sims; a life simulation and not a game, you create your own story. That cannot happen in linear games as the Final Fantasy series, for instance. Editors and companies change strategies in gaming in order to gain money and recognition and not necessarily a good product and writers sometimes fail to see the companies demands.
Some gaming companies expect the gamer to tighten their budgets and that the producer suffers the consequences of a good or a bad production with their team. They just want the guarantee that the game will sell on it's own; the same reason why some writers and work teams will create a comic and then develop story varieties and comic shorts, just to give everything popularity; or depend on previously made hits.
Still, people always identify themselves with the first product and rarely a second game (unless it is a fragmented game like Xenosaga). Mario is famous for the 6-bit version and Mario 64, not for Super Mario Galaxy. People lost respect for Final Fantasy after the 10th disc. Zelda's Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask were a wonder, not because they changed the story, but because of the 64's old graphics, that gave the game the precise and sometimes fake medieval aesthetic. Games demonstrated that by becoming one with art, they became part of the main masterpiece. Games are "interactive stories", but just that in the whole business.
Gain recognition for being a good writer, or be swallowed by the masses and create something they won't end up liking because they created the story in the first place? What to do?
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Griff496 In reply to sakurasoul [2012-04-15 08:25:18 +0000 UTC]
I agree with you on all of your mentioned topics, and I forgot to mention where inspiration and influences, as you mentioned, can affect the value and ultimately the success of a story, possibly games as well. It's nice to have something completely original and enjoyable, like a Miyazaki film.
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fuzi666 In reply to ??? [2012-04-13 03:27:40 +0000 UTC]
I loved. This article made me think about a lot of tihings and has changed the way I thought about a lot of things about this.
This is great.
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PsychoticHeart In reply to ??? [2012-04-13 03:14:32 +0000 UTC]
Well.
In a personal opinion, and as a wannabe writer, I believe that, yes, feedback is quite an important part of creating a story. However, sometimes the story is already set. The scenes are planned out in a general basis and plot. The characters have been developed. The beginning, middle, and end has already been decided. All these things has the author done at this point. It is what the writer intends it to go by. Sure, maybe making a few changes, such as minor details like more action in fight scenes or perhaps a tad more info on the characters backgrounds, maybe a little extra romance here and there between the two lovers.
HOWEVER, the author should not have to edit their entire plot simply because they would rather have Mr. Whatever be the one to activate the bomb, or having the hero be the ultra-super-powered hottie that every fangirl loves, or add in a sexual scene for the pervs, or a few fans wanting so-and-so to be with what's-his-face, when, instead, the writer still believes it best, in their mind, to leave it at sidekick pushing the button heroically, the couple just kissing to keep it toned down, or wishing for said so-and-so to really get with that-one-guy.
Sometimes, the author has a porpose in their work. Most of the time, there's a theme, a lesson, a message within. Always, there is the artist's desire, will, wish, dream of what they so passionately strive to do in what is soley THEIR work. So, yes, perhaps the one you are closest with in the story must be the one to die. You never want it to happen, but then the potagonist becomes a legend. Then it is revealed that sacrifices must be made. Then it shows what it means to be a hero.
It is important to understand what the creator was invisioning at that moment. The one who is playing the game, listening to the music, observing the painting, or reading the literature must be able to look at the viewpoint of the one who actually performed the work.
The opinions of consumers do matter, yes, but, in the end, all the great works in the world were made for self-satisfaction, a sense of accomplishment, a bit pride in oneself. The judge in the end is only the artist. Thier own critique is the one which matters most, for it was made for their own need, for their own purpose, for their own soul. It was penned and painted from their own blood, etched from their minds to their fingertips, beating with the life they intended to give it.
So, try to understand the artist's mindset behind the work. Do not critisize it because it is not personally liked, but for its quality based on what the creator wished it to be. If the world was able to do this very thing every day, then there would be less need for arguments as heated as these. Of course, I suppose now that it is unlikely for all to meet at the same agreement in complete acquiescence, but there can still be a few ties her and there for a connection that the comedy-lover, happy ending-romatic, anime-otaku, scifi-gamer, fantasy-imaginative, horror-fanatic, and action-packed can all meet on in one level of "we all love what we love because we simply do" type of wavelength.
Perhaps this was delving too deep, but this is what is my personal belief.
The future of storytelling has, and always will be, the artist's dream.
Sincerely Passionate,
Psychotic
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virenity [2012-04-13 02:35:19 +0000 UTC]
Way to have a sensationalist title. None of this changes storytelling itself.
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OriJuice [2012-04-13 01:22:42 +0000 UTC]
I just finished a podcast touching on this exact subject actually. My opinion is that when you start creating for the monetary value, when you sell the idea for money and fan base; that's when you owe it to your audience to give what they want. If I go to a restaurant and get a plate of under cooked chicken I usually complain; why is the same not done for the gaming and movie industries? They are still developing, creating and marketing a product for people to consume, and as such should aim to create a product that draws off the opinions of those who shall consume.
The moment a publisher tells me that me, the consumer that my opinion doesn't matter and that the game/movie will go in the direction they wish is the moment I simply refuse to buy into the production. Why should I support the producer that can't support their own consumer base? Its bad business, period.
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makepictures In reply to OriJuice [2012-04-13 03:52:26 +0000 UTC]
Where could people find the podcast?
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OriJuice In reply to makepictures [2012-04-20 16:47:55 +0000 UTC]
It's in its mastering stages and I am still working out the odds and ends. It will soon be available at www.kylelacelle.com however and on YouTube @ GreatBigMedia.
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theavatarhouse In reply to OriJuice [2012-04-13 01:50:12 +0000 UTC]
exactly how i feel about it. i dropped kingdom hearts for the reason you stated. i can no longer understand the story at all. i would keep following the story if square actually put forth some effort into giving it an understandable story.
they could have anyone browse kingdom hearts fan sites and see that it is split 50\50 of those that understand it and those that don't. and these guys made other awesome games and have the ability to make quality games, so why they don't is beyond me.
but yeah it may be art but it is also a mass produced product, most art pieces cannot be prefectly copied 100 or more times. but a game can be copied over and over and be the same every time.
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OriJuice In reply to theavatarhouse [2012-04-20 16:52:43 +0000 UTC]
The reality is that game companies are out there to make money, and once a franchise is created (ie. Kingdom Hearts)it then self-markets. Much like Halo, where the reputation for the game drove the franchise, and the FF series, as well. I find that Mass Effect semi went that way, in that they relied on the reputation of the game to proceed the commitment to their fans. Indie developed games are great in that most devs will work hand in hand with the community, seeking input; as they are an overall smaller community, with a smaller target base.
But with the advent of forums, online polling and the ability to have an online presence there is no reason why a game company shouldn't use the community base to help develop a product they'll ultimately buy into; it however is a matter of general value vs individual opinion. One person may want this, another this. You can never please everyone.
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theavatarhouse In reply to OriJuice [2012-04-23 03:38:27 +0000 UTC]
i know everyone can't like every feature in a game. but after i paid for da not once but twice, ps3 and pc.
it would have been nice if they wouldn't have ignored my cry for help. when i went on the forums to try and find some way to get the game stable for more then 10 mins. i wasn't asking for the world, just advice or some decency to listen when i asked over and over. 2 years later i got help from someone on youtube.
so bioware couldn't care enough to fix their game. i had no idea how it would run on my computer. and over 2 years i have pumped over 1,000$ into trying to fix this mess, and in between buying the game and getting help from youtube. bioware didn't give two shits. and i'm not ungrateful for the help, i nearly cried seeing the game run smoothly for the first time since i started playing it. i never thought i would see that game run decently ever on anything i owned.
it's good that software and mods exist but it shouldn't come to the consumer having no choice but to fix their product. and the bad thing is i do enjoy the game, and i was doing everything i could find to get it to run long enough to actually enjoy it. all that happened was i lost the better part of 2 years time.
as a result i don't give input to game companies, i don't ever expect them to listen, regardless of what company or how big the company is. i don't waste my time anymore. because i have no doubt i can solve a problem in a game before bioware would bother to reply to the topic.
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theavatarhouse In reply to ??? [2012-04-12 23:41:57 +0000 UTC]
honestly i never liked mass effect or tmnt. and i can see a game as an art form. but no artist can grow or improve without feedback, it is a general fact.
they don't need or should do everything a fan asks, but take critic into consideration at least. the way i see it to many companies seem like machines, like humanity no longer exists in them. because they don't respond to us 'i asked for help for a damn long time in the bioware forums to solve my dragon age issues never got help even once, the game still runs as crappy as day 1'. when they broadcast info they seem robotic in nature. and i'm not sure about anyone else but i often feel as i am just cannon fodder to keep the machines running.
like the gasoline in a car, it is only needed if a task is performed. so a company only gives a damn when you are buying their product, and they only care about getting paid. i stopped following the kingdom hearts story, but do you think square enix gives a shit that they bastardized one of my most loved games, the story in kh makes no sense anymore. but they couldn't give a shit, they have plenty of income from others to cover for me. so i often feel pointless and worthless on my own to any company.
the few companies i see as worth caring about are mohjang, the authors of minecraft, and the company that made eve online. and as a curtosy i don't give two shits about them unless it hinders progress on the next game i want. they want to treat us like cannon fodder, i say bring it.
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N0XI0US--GLiTCH [2012-04-12 23:13:23 +0000 UTC]
mmm. never was into TMNT, but
i have to disagree with this. it's incredibly arrogant for a fan demanding something to be changed in the author's story. the author's story is his/her own and they will tell it how they envision it, but also may ask fans for what they wish to happen next. otherwise if not asked, what gives fans that right to change their imagination? utter bull if you ask me; of course the audience's opinion matters, i get that, input is an IMPORTANT thing yes, yes, but. if they don't like how something goes in the author's mind then they can simply just stop watching/reading it, or ask the author for rights to tell the story how they think it should go. if you never asked "hey what should happen next?" or "hey guise how should this /have/ happen?" then no one has the right to demand you to make changes in your imagination.
now of course people are going to totally take this the wrong way or misunderstand because i tend not to be the greatest at expressing my thoughts, buuuut eh oh well.
and to answer one of the questions, as a writer, it's not that i've felt pressured to alter a piece because of someone's different envisions, it's just that. it makes me unmotivated. makes me feel like all the hardwork i've done to write about what magical adventures happen in my head goes to waste. ofc i value the other person's opinion, damn, i love it when people express their thoughts & opinions on my work but if they're telling me how to run the story on a piece of mine that /doesn't/ ask for help, then. they can just kindly click the back button, because i'm telling it how i envision it lulz my story, you no demand change unless you editor, my mum, or if i ask you. kthnxhaveaniceday. >:C
(crap this turned into a mini rant. i must sound like a jerk. my apologies otl)
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Chaossymbol [2012-04-12 22:32:53 +0000 UTC]
My answers to your questions :3
1. As a writter never have been pressured to change part of my stories, but some of my readers gave me advises I could improve like love scenes for example and I try to do so.
And yes I definitievely think so. For example in the Resident Evil franchise I think all the fans of the old horror style games, including me, have a big entitlement to demand that the creators should come back to this horror style, because these fans were it who made Resident Evil so popular in the first place.
2. I guess it's a bit of both. I have spent many times in playing the Resident Evil games, but I also always enjoyed the stories how the main characters struggle from one zombie invasion to the next and fight for their survive and uncover the dark mysteries of the Umbrella Corporation. In my opinion with taking away the horror, zombies, Umbrella and the puzzles the creators of Resident Evil 4/5 have taken away the core of Resident Evil, everything what was importint in this game.
3. Honestly I don't really think so. Although it's important for me what my readers are thinking I most time write my stories to please myself. Sure if my readers would ask for i would try to change my style of writing, describing emotions etc. , but it would never be so far that I would stop writing TF stories. But in the opposite to game creaotors I'm not earning money with my work.
4. I don't know, sorry
5. I never have played a Mass Effect game.
I hope you are fine with my answers
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multikiller12 [2012-04-12 21:58:51 +0000 UTC]
michael bay just ruins everything that you love i bet teenage mutant ninja i mean alien turtles is gonna be like tranformers lots of explosions and tits and other stuff like that next hes gonna make a thundercats movie but the thundercats are actually robots or something i think you get what im trying to say michael bay is a dick
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multikiller12 [2012-04-12 21:54:39 +0000 UTC]
just read some of it will read it all later i wanted to talk about what Drew McWeeny, HitFix was saying i think they owe us i mean without the fans they wouldnt have their money so i get why mass effect fans were angered about the anding they were promised much better they can do anything they want with the game but thats kinda like saying fuck you we dont need fans we will just have some dlc shit for the first part of the game i havent played mass effect but i get why the fans are pissed
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Echostarter [2012-04-12 21:03:58 +0000 UTC]
1. As a visual artist/story writer, I can understand that there are pressures to alter work to make something more appealing to an audience. I would very much POSSIBLY consider those alterations BEFORE a final product is released. As a reader or a viewer/consumer, I feel I am entitled to critique disappointments in a creative media/art product (eg. visual arts, literary arts, interactive arts, performance arts). But, in no way do I feel entitled to FORCE/PETITION the creator to change a final product that they have deemed finished/complete no matter how disappointing and invested I was.
2. My entitlement to CRITIQUE is based on the fact that I invest time, money and energy into the creative media/art product. I don't feel entitled to force changes.
3. As a writer and visual artist, the connection with an audience is always important. And as much as I appreciate feedback/criticism/critique, I would not appreciate being bullied into changing a creative piece of work that I feel I am more than satisfied with--a piece of work that I believe I relate to--a piece of work that reflects my personal views. And, if, in the future, I find myself agreeing with the critical audience, then I can always choose to do a re-imagining of my prior work.
4. I have never read Knite, Romantically Apocalyptic, or Off-White. But, I have read other authors that release works-in-progress for audience feedback. I generally opt out on giving feedback because I don't want the story spoiled. I want the experience that the author builds--a different perspective--not an experience that I am already aware of. I don't want to try and influence the artist. I want the artist to try and influence me. If I don't like the artist, I don't contribute, or I express disappointment.
5. I have played ME3. The ending was awesome. The creators/writers intended an ending, and that ending fit despite some possible loopholes that I find inconsequential anyway. People argue that they wanted significantly different endings based on their decisions in past games. I argue that the decisions you make throughout the trilogy only affect your journey in a story that was meant to have a relatively definite ending.
As for TMNT. It's disappointing that Michael Bay would make those changes. Unfortunately, he is not my slave. So I'm not going be demanding any changes from him. Suggestions, maybe. But, no demands.
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PhaserRave [2012-04-12 20:16:55 +0000 UTC]
If the story is a genuine story, and not some mass product with no feeling in to it, then it should be the author's own. The author has a story to tell, and it should be how that author wants it. If the fan sees it differently, they should write their own.
If an ongoing story is re-written in the middle, and has little relation the first part of the story, then it might as well be a completely new story.
Of course, there is always room for criticism.
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PhantasmalBastian [2012-04-12 19:57:07 +0000 UTC]
1. Not demand change, at least not in the normal sense (would be based entirely around the situation in question). But, yes, always crtitcize. A reader/watcher/player always has the "right" to criticize. I have criticized ME3's ending time and time again.
2. Both. Time and money mean nothing, past scraping up the money to buy the medium, to me. Emotional investment means more then you can possibly imagine.
5. Disappointed. Its not everyday that you play a series like Mass Effect. I dont think BioWare truly understands how bad they fucked up. TMNT. Whoever decided to make them Aliens is an idiot. Their lore explains how they were made already.....I wont watch it.
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jerrykimbro [2012-04-12 19:54:53 +0000 UTC]
The future of Story telling has arrived? What nonsense. You all are REALLY full of yourselves aren't you?
But to answer your annoying questions..
1) As an artist, Nobody has ever read anything i have done with a serious eye to publish it. most don't care about any comics that I have ever done. But since i'm not doing it for them- F*ck them.
As a writer, the story is in my won head. i don't like collaborating with people- but if someone has a good idea, i may play iwth it. But i decide in the end how the story ends.
As a reader, I do enjoy a story that makes me think- and occassionallly I will be inspired enough to write a sequel or a short story about something i have perused. But since its THEIR story- i can't really promote that as MY work. No i don't feel i have a right to criticize or demand changes... that's absurd.
2) No i don't feel i'm entitled to tell the writer, director or painter HOW to dot their job - simply becuse i am a fan of their work. HOW arrogant is that!
3) i do listen to the one or two fans i have- and ideas they have given me HAVE added new dimensions to my stories- so yes- i do like pleasing them. But i'm still in charge.
4) Never heard of any of that stuff. I have written harry potter fan fiction (Potter vs Cthulhu), but anyone who ever read it suggested that I go fuck myself.
5) Whats an ME3? Or any of that other gibberish you are spouting?
Bottom line- you people who think can tell the artist what to do with thier own work- SCREW you. UNLESS you offer me a huge paycheck- and then I will sell all my copyrighted shit to the Harry Potter/Twilight Series/Hunger games Entertainment EXTRAVAGANZA and retire to a life in luxury.
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Osiris0721 [2012-04-12 19:34:33 +0000 UTC]
I remember a time when a work of art that displeased its audience was because there was a flaw that marred the integrity of the rest, whether it is Van Gogh's fingerprints on the edges of a painting, or a typographical error like Michaelangelo from the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. And since creation is god-like, the audience can't change the history of unpopularity, and would be wise to not attempt to fabricate a creation without a heads up from the original. Does anyone remember how badly Germany wanted to "recreate" the Olympic thingy in 1978 during September? It was messed up but changing the outcome would be a complete denial of reality, and fiction is suppose to make you upset so when you reflect you may gain insight at how the creation will benefit, or deduct from your own quality of life.
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PhoenixArisen In reply to ??? [2012-04-12 17:18:34 +0000 UTC]
Wonderful article.
1. As a visual artist, have you ever experienced being pressured to alter an artwork?
Just over the past couple of months, I've been asked permission to use my artwork for some band t-shirts because they like the look of my fractals. I haven't felt the pressure or insistence to change my artwork. On a different note, though, when I was attempting to create some journal skins, the critiques and feedback which I received didn't give any different ideas but was found unacceptable for a group submission. I left that group but I know that my type of images and background with CSS or journal skins isn't exactly mainstream and I just prefer to make my own individual ideas and if people enjoy them I feel much more rewarded.
3. Personally, I am much more willing to accept whatever happens while reading or watching entertainment. There have been certain types of novels and movies which I felt were not to my liking, but I didn't feel that my own personal opinion should change the essence of the work. However, if I do invest a lot of time, energy, as well as emotional attachment into something like a story line within a video game or movies I feel that to ignore that or dismiss those feelings and investments will turn me off to the company for awhile. I am a firm believer in trying something first to see if it is something I enjoy. Once I have committed to a certain product and am let down, my chances of spending more money or time with that enterprise or products is much more difficult to overcome.
As a writer or visual artist, is the connection between you and your audience important enough for you to want to make a change pleasing to them?
This is a tough question because on one aspect, if they are asking for major alterations or plot points, my inclination is to say no. However, I have found that in order to become more successful as both a writer and artist I need to continually grow into uncomfortable areas. I would also seek to know what the motive behind making the change for them. I definitely feel that pleasing my fan and customer base is important but I also don't want to sacrifice my talent by trying to please everyone. If I start to acquiesce to all of the changes people want, I will lose sight of my talent and gifts by attempting to be everything for everyone. It is a fine line between growing in your craft, listening to your audience to keep them interested, and staying true to your artistic muse so that you don't get burnt out.
Does the ability to offer comments, suggestions, criticisms, and encouragement bond you creatively to a property in a way eclipsing passive fandom?
I think that using the ability to offer feedback in all of those forms does help bond me to the properties. However, I feel that in order to be taken most seriously, it should be intelligent, thoughtful, and non-aggressive because being taken seriously is more important than a statement like, "It sucks." Depending on my mood, I might ask them what about it upsets them but if they don't take the time to offer constructive feedback like "The blues tend to bleed into the yellows too much and should be crisper. Also, while overall the composition is interesting, it seems like there are too many strands which detract from the overall shape and emotive feel of the piece instead of unifying it." If that is a comment, I would most definitely spend the time to address those concerns and possibly resubmit something which might be more pleasing to the person who gave the feedback. Finally, I feel that being able to participate with the artists creation is respectful and a valuable tool if only because they know that you enjoy it enough to write something about it. I'm still amazed that some of my lesser known works maybe have 2 comments and I wonder what I did which nobody is willing to talk to me about.
If you played ME3, how did you feel about the ending?
I felt the ending was slightly weak, but I was satisfied with it. I wish that there had been some kind of integration with the main character besides what happened (trying not to spoil it for those that are still interested in playing it). There are few games where I give a perfect rating to and out of a 10 star rating, I would probably give it a 7.5 at this time. The combat was fun and I liked the integration of the previous characters DLC and actions from ME2 which carried into the game. I was slightly disappointed with the romance option. Overall, the graphics, gameplay, and integration with the previous game were definite improvements while the storyline floundered a bit but was overall acceptable.
I can understand people's frustration with the ending, but having played through a number of games where choices change the storyline it usually doesn't affect the main storyline but is rather intended to expand the understanding of the world. Having experience in programming, I know that to cater a game individually for every single consumer is an absolute nightmare of code so they tried to make as many people satisfied with the outcome as possible. In terms of mass production, this is just one of the necessary evils of product design and I believe that there is no real easy way to please everyone all of the time.
Please, bear in mind that these answers are my own personal opinion. I understand that this is a hot topic and one that I am paying close attention to since I am an avid video game fan. It could mean some major changes within the next decade, but for now I rely on my own opinion, reviews from established sources, and an open-mind to choose where and how I spend my time, money, and emotional connectedness. Once again, this is an awesome article and thank you for your eloquent views. I can see that this has garnered some serious comments and feedback already but I want my friends to see my views as well.
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DJNeonGlow In reply to ??? [2012-04-12 14:01:46 +0000 UTC]
1. any work i do is always for fun and for the pleasing of my friends and others who enjoy my work ( as average as it may be. ) If I am doing something for someone who either asked for something or is going to be paying for it, i take their personal input seriously and will work it into my art for THEIR satisfaction. Same goes with anything i write, wheather it be fanfic, song, essay, etc. So in short, the consumer has the right to give their opinion and the producer should take into consideration how their fans feel. Happy fans = more profit.
2. Both sides have reasonableness to them. I feel as a consumer i have the right to demand change wheater it be listened to or not. Its up to the creaters to take the heartfelt concern of their fans into consideration.
3. They have the right to give their opinions, of course, and i will always take them into consideration withen reasonableness. I also want to take into consideration of my own opinions and feeling. So in short, im willing to listen to my fans withen reasonableness and if anything have an intellegent discussion pointing out both sides opinions and work on a compromise that will make my fans and me happy.
4. yes, yes, and yes.
5. I can say that i was not satisfied with the ending because It completely disregards the idea of making either positive or negative choices that effects the outcome of the situation and gave us the same ending but with 3 different colors. In all honesty i dont see it as JUST Mass Effect 3 but for the entire company that calls themselves EA. They dont give a damn about their fans and is a money hungry company. Example, having to buy a seperate pass to play online while it should just come with it like EVERY other game out there.
As far as it goes with TMNT or TANT, that just completely outrages me. Its like flushing years of faithful fan bases down the toilet with complete disregard to... well EVERYTHING. Im not a fan of the series but i have respect for it nontheless and it still gives me a tingle on the back of my neck every time i read it. I really hope for the sake of everyone who loves TMNT, the director will listen and be reasonable.
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Chaosa In reply to ??? [2012-04-12 11:54:30 +0000 UTC]
ME3 - I was prepared for glorious death, failure, success or surprise at whatever the authors decided was the most dramatic ending. I would not have dreamed of asking them to change the end.
However say J.K. Rowling created an expectation - say telling the fans that one of the main characters was going to die. Then in the final book not a single character dies and then halfway through the book aliens arrive and you find out Harry is actually an Alien, The End.
Mass Effect promised the fans that their would be very different endings depending on their choices, there was not. The ending was also just strange, with niggling questions of... um how did those characters get to the other side of the universe, why I am no longer covered in my own blood, why does my gun have infinite ammo? ... in all asking what the heck happened and trying to make excuses for the glaring plot holes.
After a beautifully crafted story - would you not feel let down if the author suddenly became rushed, sloppy and produced work that was beneath their previously excellent standards? It felt like "Well you've already bought the product, were not going to get any more money off you so lets move onto a new product that will bring in money."
(Anyone remember the ending to KOTORII?)
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SkylaStar In reply to ??? [2012-04-12 08:21:52 +0000 UTC]
1.) As a writer, I've never felt the need to change any of my work because of something someone else said. However, as a viewer, I feel that if you remake something, such as TMNT, you should keep the same basic plotline/character basis. NOT change MUTANT TURTLES (which is even part of the title) to ALIENS. That just doesn't make sense. And I love the original TMNT. So I think that in that right, the viewers should get a say.
2.) Both.
3.) It depends on what I'm changing. If it's my own work, that's not based on anything, then no. There is/would have been a reason for writing whatever it is that I am writing or have written. But if it's based on something else, then depending on how drastically people want it changed and why, then it would definitely become a consideration.
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Koontah In reply to ??? [2012-04-12 08:01:02 +0000 UTC]
I think as a society we look at media as all the same, whether it's a novel or a movie or a comic book. The problem is that it's a sore misconception. You cannot judge a movie based on the experiences of a book. You cannot expect the same expeirence in a movie that you've had in a video game. It's all like comparing a fish to a bunch of grapes and then comparing them to a pork roast. And yet the public-mostly the fans, expect the same experience in each media. It's unrealistic.
As for the rights of artists and writers, I think, again, the rights should be talored according to the medium used. A novel, for example, is pretty much a one-person invention. WISIWYG-What You See Is What You Get. But a movie, written by one person, directed by someone else and produced by yet another individual and the characters interpreted by other people, is a broader domain. who owns that? the Studio who foots the bill, the director/producer/screenwriter-adaptor or the person who initially invented the story? How can you hold on to a vision and call it your very own once you've tossed it to John Q Public?
My answer is that you can't. If you've forfieted your work for money, then you've more or less forfeited the idea to others either via interpersonal interpretation or by crazed fans.
I am a big fan of the TV series Supernatural. Supernatural fans are known for their unbelievable obsession over this off-network TV series that started initially as a 3-season story. Eric Kripke developed the idea for television. He created it for money. Legally, Supernatural is still his. But socially, it's not his anymore, it belongs to the fans. They have voted Supernatural as the best SciFi series of all times, outdoing even the world-famous, long-lived Dr. Who. There are almost as much fanfiction written about Supernatural as there is of Harry Potter.
I am currently writing my own science fiction novel series. But I have no intention of publishing it tradtionally; I'm going to publish it independantly. I don't expect a huge turn over money-wise because what I do is not about money. Therefore, I retain the vision, the story as mine.
I see video games as instant 'public domain'. Video games are designed for entertainment. you buy it, you develop whatever is available for developing (such as orignial characters) and just like a movie, where there are a number of creators, a video game is also (pardon the expression) free game. I dont' think it's about entitlement but about profit. If you sell something, it's no longer yours. It's like selling your car. That car isn't yours anymore, but the person who purchased it from you.
Input from fans is there for a reason. If you want to sell something, then there is an unspoken obligation to listen to what's important to the people who pay you for the goods. I will buy your car and paint it pink. You cannot tell me I can't repaint it becasue it belongs to me.
Does that make any sense?
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koreycabra In reply to ??? [2012-04-12 07:51:56 +0000 UTC]
There is a difference between creativity and exploitation of the media for revenue.
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DJNeonGlow In reply to koreycabra [2012-04-12 15:44:21 +0000 UTC]
Love how simple but true your statement is.
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Mischievous-Car-Bomb [2012-04-12 07:51:50 +0000 UTC]
A story belongs to the original creator, I don't think anyone is entitled to change it but them. I happen to be a fan who has been dissatisfied with many a story ending and decisions in the story direction, and sure, I would love it if they all just wrote things the way I want to see, but that is not fair. If they choose to take fan opinions into account and change their stories for us then that's great, but none of us have any right to expect that from them.
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JobStagris [2012-04-12 07:14:14 +0000 UTC]
I don't think there's a standing controversy here at all. What ME3 did was incredibly obscene. ME3 did not have the same people working on it then were originally producing the title through out the life of ME1 and ME2. The stories of ME1 and ME2 had endings that were always rich, dynamic, and hinged upon various character decisions. No one ending was easily similar. ME3 promised the same, then failed to deliver. What my Shepard would have done is completely different then what another persons Commander Shepard would have done in the ending situation of ME3. This is where the creators of ME3 failed, and that is why it should be revised, because it is completely and entirely contrary to the point of ME1 and ME2... to explore the consequences of ones actions through a provided medium. There were 'zero' consequences in ME3. There was one ending, for all actions. Period.
All artists understand that fan input is important to success, but input can only go so far before it destroys the creators original premise/theme/style/etc. When people provide input, it helps the creator to understand the audience which is pleased. If one simply bent to the whim of every voice, there would be no product, no cohesion, no substance, just shallow, faceless pandering to some nameless, undirected mass. Only so many things can be done on behalf of the audience, for the audience, before a products integrity is entirely destroyed...
Some will say, the opposite is true. ME3's integrity was destroyed by its creators by not listening. That's not true, the developers killed it before the audience could even respond. The ending for ME3 was revolting cause we were expecting the same quality, dynamic, and consequence based endings that we saw in ME1 and ME2. The creators should have ALREADY known how to develop their endings... and didn't. This was a result of pure ignorance. The question isn't "Were they wrong?", cause the majority already agrees, but "What do they do now?".
See, they already knew what the audience expected. That's why they made the promises that they did... but it was a lie. My experience has taught me that when ever you set wrong/poor/or even false expectations, you will completely destroy the fan base. You want to surprise them, yes, but you NEVER give the wrong expectations. Part of what makes consumers happy is giving them an accurate idea of what to expect without necessarily spoiling the goods. It's that simple, and ME3 failed on every single count.
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AIBoobPicsForSale In reply to ??? [2012-04-12 06:48:39 +0000 UTC]
I think it's a great idea to consider fan suggestions before a piece is finalized (no matter what form the piece takes, movie, game, writing), but once it is complete I believe technical or 'readability' improvements are all that should be done.
When most (reasonable) people give critique on an image, they focus on the technicals; what areas look 'off', composition adjustments, etc. They suggest how to enhance the impact of the work that is already there. I think this same thing is how we should approach other mediums as well. I almost never see someone make suggestions that a painting have entirely different subject matter that gives it a totally different essence; that's not what the artist intended to create. We should respect the decisions of the artist.
I do not believe it is beneficial for us to by-default start thinking of each creation as a democratic process that we the viewers have the authority to change. I believe this is more likely to result in a watered-down generalization of popular ideas than to encourage the memorable moments of 'genius' when a single person or small organized group creates something entirely unexpected, that goes against what people 'want'. What the collective wants to see is nearly inherently the most predictable things (even when it's predictably "unpredictable" things. i.e. when a lot of people come up with the same 'twist ending' we can't say it's that much of a twist). It is the things that are not trendy that set the stage for what will trend.
Of course there is nothing inherently wrong with taking suggestions, but I feel it is very important that the creator stick with his/her original gut direction and to not start 'giving in' to outside influences if they are not following a similar path as the one he set out on.
I do agree that there is a growing stench in the air of 'entitlement'; that people are starting to feel that buying a product means they 'deserve' something more than what they bought. Maybe it is a cultural case of newer generations feeling that they inherently deserve things; I don't know for sure. You buy stories (movies, games, books) to discover where the authors will take you; if you buy them expecting them to make you feel good or to end in a way that you deem fits in to your preconceived box of what is 'acceptable', then I'm not sure why you're even wasting your time with these things. If the author took a direction that was obviously not such a popular one, there's a very good chance he/she/they did it that way on purpose - that it's what they wanted to create, and that appealing to everyone wasn't a primary concern. They wanted to do something different; they didn't want to feed us what we've shown we like to eat.
If I make something that you don't like, and the pieces that you don't like are highly subjective (as opposed to more concrete, technical flaws), then accept that my creation was "bad" and move on; don't assume it's your duty to 'write to congress' to start changing it in to something you think is good. Be aware of the difference between a suggestion beneficial to the original intent, and an entirely new idea.
There's a reason that buying a game, movie, or book costs exponentially less than hiring a person to make said product for you - you are buying the end product, not an employee. Do not let your ego spiral out of control. You give money to experience the creator(s)' creation, and it's not always going to be exactly what you wanted - but the best things are those which introduce to you ideas you didn't even know you wanted, so we should learn to appreciate what doesn't adhere directly to what we think is 'good'.
Learn to appreciate what is "bad" if the bad parts are actually done fairly well but just aren't to your taste. I routinely run in to works that I don't like on deviantART, but I can recognize when they are crafted with skill regardless of that; I do not start telling the creators to stop what they are doing and make what I like. I am glad that they have a different pair of eyes, because for all I know they could lead to inspirations for other artists that in turn lead to unexpected inspirations for me. Even the stones we don't like can create ripples that we do.
I don't want to sound like I am totally against large-scale collaboration, though. Sometimes the intent of the creator is explicitly to create the product of a social recipe. That is entirely fine, too, because again: it's following the creator's intent.
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XxGameWiZxX In reply to ??? [2012-04-12 04:06:39 +0000 UTC]
I'm very sensitive about this subject since my dream is to become a graphic arts designer and lead game director. Gamers have the right to voice their opinions, giving reactions back to producers and companies' products. It is their duty to listen to their fans as they are the ones that give video games its popularity and profits.
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DiscombobulatedCorp [2012-04-12 03:31:30 +0000 UTC]
In my mind, these movies and video games are made exclusively to fans all around. We have become used to an origin story that has been used but told in a different manner. But when someone completely steps in and changes one tiny fact, then the entire story changes. Like the upcoming "Ninja Turtles" the Ninja Turtles are Anthropomorphic Alien turtles. Well then how do we explain Splinter? If we change one minuscule fact then an entire story changes. Sometimes for the better but other times for the worse. To me, I am not a big video game guy but if a game based on the movie doesn't follow the film at all it makes me irritated. I mean if you are going to follow the plot, follow the movie. I like to write my own stories and I like to come up with stuff but when I have to change things around, add dialogue and change facts, I would have to change dozens of things.
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Madkill [2012-04-12 03:22:26 +0000 UTC]
As I found out, most 'TMNT' fans don't know about the true original concept of 'TMNT' and when you compare the original concept of TNMT to the current upcoming film concept they actually have a lot in common than most might think which means not many changes are being made.
What was announced was quite brief anyway and the source of the radiation that transformed regular turtles into the TMNT was from space anyway, so its not far off.
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Madkill In reply to Madkill [2012-04-12 03:23:19 +0000 UTC]
Oh and some of the pretentious opinions of most people on DeviantART are laughable at best. xD
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darrin18 [2012-04-12 03:13:15 +0000 UTC]
i don't think that becuase someone else doesn't like how your work turned out in the end is a reason to change it so that you will impress someone. Ive always felt that whn you make a piece of work iether wirting or a visual of some sort your working to impress yourself, more then the other people that are interested in it. After seeing the ending to ME3 i dont think that because the people who bought should be trying to get the creators to change it so that they will like it more. The same thing happend when assassin's creed 2 came out. No one liked the ending but the creators didn't alter what happend at the ending just to make the fans happy. I guess i think that when teams or just an indidvual set out to make a work of art or a masterpiece they are doing to make themselves proud thier accomplishment in the end no matter the impact it has in a community.
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ithypno [2012-04-12 03:07:51 +0000 UTC]
When it comes right down to it, money talks. If there are solid amounts of money behind an idea, it will float. Forget the fans!
As with everyone else, the huge change to TMNT, was nothing short of a sin and stupid. In as much as how M.Night, changed Avatar. TMNT, was popular in its own right. Most 30-35 year-old group, remember a certain story line. TO change it, is to lose their support. Its a very sick, and cheap attempt to turn TMNT, in to a sci-fi themed story; to get marketing. While, I am all for updating TMNT... DO NOT CHANGE IT ALL TOGETHER! Just because a writer or directer, feels they have some god-given right to change it, they end up killing it! Everything has to be marketable into many, many sequels, and because of George Lucas; Prequels. Even remaking Titanic in to 3D was a round about way of making Titanic 2! (for you history buffs, Titanic 2 should be Britannic. Since she was Titanic's Sister Ship... here that James... Britannic, was an epic story too! And you can reuse the same sets! IT was the same design of the ship!)
Who here remembers M.A.S.K? They should make that into a movie, just like how they made transformers into a great CG movie! LETS DO OTHER 80's Cartoons! Like a live action Voltron, Inspector Gadget died, because it was too soft and fuzzy, should have made it maybe a little more dark like batman!!
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natenutron [2012-04-12 02:30:41 +0000 UTC]
I was 9 when the first turtle movie came out and I was hooked of course. I watched all the movies and watched the cartoons every Saturday. It doesn't bother me that there will be a change in who or where the turtles come from. I think it is a good thing to experiment with things. Kinda like Marvels What If comics. What If the turtles came from a far off galaxy? Lets us see something different, and if all fails they will return back to the normal turtles. I get tired of seeing the same old characters over and over. Like Wolverine, can't marvel just find a way to kill him. Bring up some other heros that can get into his spotlight. This guy has been around for how long? Anyway, I like new stuff so throw me a turtle curve ball, because I will be excited when it hits theaters and I get to take my children to see something that means a lot to me.
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jemmytee55 [2012-04-12 02:25:26 +0000 UTC]
I used to write screenplays, and I cannot tell you how many times I was told I needed to change some aspect of the script to make it more sellable. Didn't mater if the script had won or placed in several different competitions; there was always something different that needed to be done to make it what that particular producer felt was acceptable. I started off making the changes then realized I was only making myself unhappy with them, so I stopped and just said, "I like the script as it is." That's when I started getting near misses in getting bought or produced instead of non-stop passes.
Then a friend who worked at Sony Animation suggested I change a script I'd written from live action to animation. I went along with it and worked in the changes he suggested, since he knew what the producers there would like. But with every change came a request for another change. By the time I put a stop to it, they were wanting to eliminate one character and change the ending of the script to something that didn't even begin to resemble what the rest of the story was about. That's when I quit screenwriting and shifted back to my art and writing books. Now I write for me and paint for me, and if nobody likes it, nobody likes it. But I've been published and I've sold some art, so...
I guess the moral to my story is, you have to know what you want in your work, and once you get it done the way you want it, keep it that way. Pressure by others to change it to suit them only courts disaster.
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flatearther [2012-04-12 01:10:03 +0000 UTC]
I am a professional traditional storyteller accredited and recorded by the National Archive, Canberra Australia. I have been invited to festivals and private homes around the country. The art of storytelling is a very exact and demanding discipline. It's core is the spoken word. Note I say word. I am also a commercial photographer and I get paid to produce images that need to stand alone without words. There is a vast difference in these mediums. Movies depend on the act of following what is written. Literature and oration are not the same. Knowing the limits and the strengths of each discipline is critical for mastery of the subject matter. Story TELLING is not image making or crafting. Writing a script is different from engaging actual people before you. I have seen poets write beautiful words and then crucify the same words when they try to speak them. I have seen others write absolute drivel and fake a great acting job to get rave reviews. Story telling is its own medium. Cheers!
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Dragonliger [2012-04-12 00:20:38 +0000 UTC]
I desperately crave for feedback but without readers I can't get it. The thing is you need it to know how good or bad you are, without it there's no future simply put.
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Esichs [2012-04-11 23:59:50 +0000 UTC]
Its a great article. I feel I can not wholly address the core questions though. I'm not a creator, I'm a consumer. IN a way though that places me in the position of giving a take from the opposite end of this narrative. As a consumer, I feel the need to partake in the arts (be they digital or traditional), in a way that brings me joy. That said, I feel absolutely no sense of entitlement what so ever when it comes to 'art.' Mass Effect was an original story, it was being told in the way Bioware wanted it to be told. I feel slighted by the ending of their epic, but not at all cheated. The experience of the journey was, in this case, far more rewarding than the end. (But hey, I liked MY ending, regardless of the fact I didn't think it was right.)
As for those Turtles, I feel such an alteration of what was their core is far too strong. Many of their stories very points hinged on their origin as mutants, it was, more often than not, one of the very focal points of the likability, character, and remarkableness. But again, going to far shouldn't effect you. Tim Buckley of Ctrl+Alt+Del honestly put it best in one of the blog posts for a rescent comic strip. In regards to the new Star Wars Kinect game.
"However cashing in on a different/younger crowd like this is not "George Lucas 'raping' my childhood.'" My childhood was fantastic, and the original trilogy was a major part of it, capturing my imagination and providing me many, many hours of entertainment (both through the films themselves, and diving into the EU when I was in high school). Han Solo dancing to pop music, while laughably silly, does not detract from any of that. Likewise, Han Solo shooting second now does not erase from memory the first time I saw ANH (where he indeed shot first).
I think too many people say "George Lucas is destroying Star Wars/my childhood!" when what they really mean to say is "I want new Star Wars stuff to appeal to me as much as the old stuff, and it doesn't. I'm really disappointed."" ~ Tim Buckley
In other words to paraphrase whatTim said better than I could have. "I think too many people say "Michael Bay destroying TMNT/my childhood/memories!" when what they really mean to say is "I want newTMNT stuff to appeal to me as much as the old stuff, and it doesn't. I'm really disappointed."
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Vintidora In reply to Esichs [2012-04-13 16:41:46 +0000 UTC]
Exactly! People who are hardcore fans or even if their not are disappointed when they don't like the newest addition, they are disappointed and therefore it becomes the destruction of their memories.
For example the Transformers question, I did not like it as much as the old one, but my younger cousin thinks it's the greatest thing ever.
Lucas and Bay are doing their jobs, they appeal to the younger generation which is what will keep them in employment, the older generation just needs to learn to step back for a bit and cherish their childhood memories.
Take it as what it is, it's not the continuation of childhood, it is in fact a new take on something old, and while we may think our younger counterparts only like it because they didn't live in the good old days the point is the things we consider our childhood are probably things that our parents had this same reaction to.
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CloakofCrimsonDreams [2012-04-11 23:37:18 +0000 UTC]
First of all.Those of us who are hardcore fans of TMNT in the first place fell in love with it because of how it was originally created and NOT because the creators "Catered" to the whining masses. That's the whole point of creating something in the first place is to create it. There are always going to be people who Love it,and people who hate it. IT's the natural order of things,so in my opinion,changing the end of a video game,or the core of a group of characters defeats the whole purpose of it even existing that way. If you don't like the way something is,fine make your own version of it but,don't Bitch because the person who came up with it didn't make it how YOU thought it should have been.
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anistasya [2012-04-11 22:48:04 +0000 UTC]
1. As a writer, have you ever experienced being pressured to change an important part of a story, either at a prospective publisher’s or editor’s insistence, or simply because of a reader’s impassioned entreaties?
Over the five year long process of writing my first novel, The Silver Hawk, I actively searched for and received a lot of critical feedback. Some of it was hard to take and I felt like it undermined the entire story, but with time and a growing confidence in my own voice, I was able to incorporate this feedback into a much stronger story. I now have a book I am really proud of and ninety percent of the time, the reader response is overwhelmingly positive. I feel that listening to my audience is vital if I am going to understand what moves them and is interesting to write about.
2. As a reader or viewer (of movies, TV shows, videogames, art, etc.) do you feel a sense of entitlement giving you the right to not only criticize but actually demand changes be made to a disappointing work?
I have experienced a feeling of disappointment in the past, usually with television shows that were brilliant and I was totally in to, which then proceeded to ruin a character I loved or make them do something ‘wrong’ based on everything they had done before. Killing everyone at the end of BBC’s Robin Hood or turning Morgana (from BBC’s Merlin) from being an intriguing and complex character into a two-dimensional ‘bad guy’ are some examples. I have often wished I could make them take it back and do it again, but right this time, and yet I have never seriously considered communicating that to the show producers. Instead, I make a mental note of the sorts of things I am going to avoid doing in my own work.
3. Do you feel this entitlement is based in your great investment of both money and time in the work? Or do you feel this entitlement is based in your great investment of your head and heart in a particularly resonant storyline?
Absolutely head and heart, all the way. The only reason we feel so passionate about a story is because we have gone there ourselves. Some part of us lives in that world and we want to complete the journey in a satisfying way. When suddenly all our hopes and expectations are twisted around, we feel the same way we would feel if the experience was really happening to us in our real lives. We are incensed that these people dare come in and tell us we are ‘helpless’ or our actions ‘don’t matter’.
4. As a writer or visual artist, is the connection between you and your audience important enough for you to want to make a change pleasing to them?
Absolutely. I love my audience. If enough people are saying something then I will listen. If even one person says something I’ll take it into consideration. It’s all about getting to the heart of what is upsetting them though. I wouldn’t go ‘Oh, everyone wants this to happen, so I’ll do that’ – it’s more like, they want to feel this way, so what is an interesting and honest way to explore that within the world and characters I’ve created.
5. Does the ability to offer comments, suggestions, criticisms, and encouragement bond you creatively to a property in a way eclipsing passive fandom?
How can it not? You get to begin sharing the fantasy of this place and these people – you own a little bit of it and with that possessiveness comes a whole other level of caring.
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yugijak In reply to anistasya [2012-04-11 23:20:46 +0000 UTC]
I applaud you for your thoroughness in your post and find multiple points in their I could very well, as a writer myself, put to good use. You have much wisdom, and deserve praise for not being blinded by fear and insecurity to accept critiques. All I can say is this, when it comes down to it, if you want to make a good story, and/or you want to start it over, it should be for your own decisions, with the thoughts of the reader in mind but not at the forefront, because in the end, the story is YOURS, and it always will be.
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anistasya In reply to yugijak [2012-04-14 10:09:31 +0000 UTC]
Hehe yeah, I totally agree. We need to own our story since we are ultimately responsible for what gets put on the page. At the same time, there's a lot you can learn from your audience. I don't pretend to know everything and I am hugely grateful to the people who have taken the time to think about my work and give me honest and useful feedback.
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yugijak In reply to anistasya [2012-04-14 18:02:30 +0000 UTC]
this much is true as well, but when it comes down to making changes, you shouldn't do it just because the fan's say so, you should do it because you want to. That being said, if one does want to make changes, the fans also have great ideas and tend to praise those which (as always, executed and developed properly) would often not only fit the world you create, but improve upon it in ways you didn't or wouldn't have dreamed of.
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anistasya In reply to yugijak [2012-04-15 12:33:12 +0000 UTC]
I totally agree. It's important to hold on to the author's right to decide the story, because only you understand all of the characters and their back stories and motivations. You can listen for feedback on what is not working - which characters are too shallow or don't make sense, but no one can tell you how the story should go. Only you can decide that.
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yugijak In reply to anistasya [2012-04-16 18:55:00 +0000 UTC]
It's good to see someone who understands this, but that being said, a writer is still under the thumb of the characters he creates, in more ways than one.
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