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TeknicolorTiger In reply to OdeeSS [2012-08-23 04:28:07 +0000 UTC]

"A certain aspect of your style." You mean, that I like purple? XD

But thank you very much. I'd like to paint more werewolves, I feel like a lot of their features change when I go from lines to lineless paints. >.< I'm afraid they look inconsistant. And that'd make me very happy if you could read what I've got so far. XD I'm really unsure about the first part but the more I write in it the more confident I'm becoming. The story is starting to progress much better than my last attempt...which was full of fail.

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OdeeSS In reply to TeknicolorTiger [2012-08-23 07:11:44 +0000 UTC]

Haha. I don't think that it's so much that you like purple as it is really vibrant and stark shadow choices, such as in that picture with Hayden jumping and you used the red background as the shadow.

I don't fuck around trying to color outside the lines. It's difficult for me to make things seem solid and alive without my line art to lean back on. As for your art, I have no idea what you feel is lost because I'm not there watching the process. So, to me, this lineless art has a lot of expression.

I looked at your gallery just now to find the Hayden picture I mentioned and now I realized that you wrote an essay about werewolves and psychology. I completely forgot to reply to your last comment on the conversation we were having on the poll (this was right when I left for vacation). I really wanted to start talking to you about how sometimes I like to use werewolves in my imagination to think of mental illness. But alas, it's 3am.

If you are open to commentary on your writing then I am more than happy to share my opinion.

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TeknicolorTiger In reply to OdeeSS [2012-08-23 20:25:00 +0000 UTC]

I had to gradually ween myself off of lineart, but thankfully I already had some background in painting traditionally so that really helped. I never liked my lineart. Especially back when I was using Photoshop. I have naturally unsteady hands to begin with and for some reason Photoshop liked to remind me of this. Most of the time, my lines were jagged and irregular even when I was just trying a single, straight one across the screen. For the longest time I thought it was me. Then I started using SAI and realized that Photoshop just sucks for lineart. (Even though sometimes the lines were perfectly fine. Most of the time they were really jagged/irregular and or very light. After using SAI, whenever I try to draw in Photoshope I feel like I have to press harder in order to get them to show up with the same sharpness as they do in SAI. Hence why that Data Sheet Meme thing I did looked so terrible in some places. It was like drawing with a fucking crayon.) But anyway, Photoshop's crappy lines did push me to learn how to paint linelessly just because I hated the way it looked.

As for werewolves and mental illness, I have to say that's one of the reasons why I think I like them so much. They embody all of my loves; anthropormorphism, psychoanalysis, monsters, Otherness, snarly wolf-things and tradition/history. I've always loved werewolves but until I started writing for my novel I hadn't really given them as much thought. I feel like I've really found my niche with them, though. But, going back to the mental illness thing; yes, that is a big thing to me in regards to what makes them monstrous. I could probably write a whole essay on why this works so well (in fact that one essay I wrote does go a bit into that) but you probably already know why anyway. XD As someone who has had a lot of experience with mental illness and psychology, being able to apply that experience with something like this is very intriguing to me and is something I want to really play on in my novel. I'm not sure I really understand why a lot of people don't seem to associate lycanthropy with personality disorders because they already have a lot in common. Even clinical lycanthropy has to do with the brain. But it's funny how the werewolf can almost be used as a personality indicator itself according to its fans. To those who prefer the more mystical, gentle, "natural", anthropomorpised werewolf, they seem to be more spiritualistic themselves and see purpose in everything. The werewolf as they see it is something to aspire to, and although they may be able to take on a human form, the resemblances stop there. They're superhuman, better-than-human, because they are not human.

Then there are those like us who like our werewolves as something aberrant and monstrous and somehow reflexive of human nature at its most raw; we seem to be more skeptical and probably think of ourselves as more "realist". We know that wolves are animals, and that people are animals, and all that that entails. The spiritual aspect of this is more of an afterthought than what we consider to be the true nature of the beast - which is like any other animal, fuckkilleat.

This latter philosophy is something I really want to play on in my writing. I'm hoping I can somehow convey that the true nature of the universe may be something beyond our understanding. Being an animal is no better or more distinguished than being human. In fact, in some ways being human is probably worse because we are supposedly aware of the "bad" things we do whereas animals are free from that responsiblity (unless directed by a human, I suppose. E.g. Dog getting into the garbage when it knows it shouldn't). Werewolves might be kind of caught in the middle of this because they are both animal in the true sense of the word and human at the same time. Thus, why my characters have to make a choice on which they'd prefer to resemble more. But in the end, they learn that neither choice is really no more divine than the other; giving in to either impulse is neither good nor bad, it's just a choice with repercussions and it really depends on if they're ready to accept those repercussions. Some of my characters straddle this line more than others, which is probably why I find Hayden so fascinating. He's both human and animal at the same time in almost every sense of the word; he's barbarous but also dignified, passionate and yet unfeeling, extremly selfish but will go out of his way to help others if it will benefit him and he doesn't try to hide that fact either.

And once again I find myself rambling. This is what happens when you say you want to talk about werewolves with me. I hope you're happy. XD ANYWAY, I'd be more than happy to partake of your opinion on anything, particularly my writing. I really need all the feedback I can get. XD

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OdeeSS In reply to TeknicolorTiger [2012-08-30 18:01:59 +0000 UTC]

I really wish I could invite you over to my house and discuss werewolves over a drink -- coffee or alcohol, whatever you prefer. lol

I was never big into lineart until I got a tablet and started doing digital art. My best friend at the time had anime influences and had a line dominated style, and I learned from her what her process for digital art was (sketch, ink, color). I started to really enjoy the process of drawing the line art, and I became really hooked after people started giving me compliments over how clean my lines are. The irony is that I felt as though line art was impossible with my style in the beginning....now it's something I get complimented on and commissioned for.

I admit that lineart is currently a "crutch" in the sense that I feel inept trying to paint without it, but I am also trying to work on integrating it more with my painting. Whenever I paint/color a lineart, I have been deleting lines within the full body and replacing it with shading (such as, shading a shoulder and deleting the lines that once formed the shoulder.) This looked SO much better! I’m trying to work in the direction where shading will replace lines and I can begin blending my main lines into the painting.

I definitely perceive my “darker” interpretation of werewolves having a lot to do with my cynical, biologically deterministic beliefs. I think that humans are riddled with instincts that are so natural to us, we don’t even know they’re instincts – they’re in the back of our minds influencing what we perceive as thoughts we’ve entirely crafted by our own free will. (Silly us!) ; ) I love exploring these instincts through the template of a werewolf, where the instincts are changed just enough that they’re not so easily looked over.

In terms of mental illness, mental illness is a topic that’s really close to my heart due to personal experiences. For years I’ve struggled with mild depression and anxiety. It wasn’t until I started college where I felt like it gained a mind of its own. I began seeing a psychiatrist who just recently said “fuck it” to antidepressants and gave me a mood stabilizer….I haven’t felt completely “whole” yet, but these past few weeks I’ve been feeling a hell of a lot more even!

I often feel like there’s a second half to me that I’m waging constant war with. I have to fight that “base emotional” side of me in order to act rationally and socially appropriate. It’s a bit of a win and a loss when it comes to how well I can hide it: It’s a win because I know I don’t treat people with the same tempestuous emotions that I feel. It’s a loss because I’m constantly hiding a “beastial” side – that half that hurts and isn’t socially appropriate.
Anxiety is perhaps the most basic experience of all – the desire to live and the physical fear over bodily harm. I imagine werewolves being more connected to the sensation of every fiber of your being becoming prepared to protect your survival. I can only imagine that a first shift would be a lot like an anxiety attack – feeling hot and cold at the same time, the prickly sensations, heart racing, worried like hell, ready to fuck something up, etc etc.

If mental illness and personality disorders are dysfunctions of otherwise normal, survival enhancing processes, then werewolves would be the mental/personality disorder prime candidate : there’s a lot of factors fighting for control in a brain that likely shifts as much as the body. If some people can’t keep their single human mind in balanced, how can you expect a monster of two minds to do the same thing?

Not that I think werewolves should be loaded with disorders or to lose sight of their human values. A lot of people struggle this way but cope and adapt. I think that every werewolf would experience a personal journal and struggle to understand their selves and remain sane, regardless of how naturally stable their personality was before.

Sorry that I am often late on replys! Often I see your responses but want to wait until I have ample time to read it and respond. Like I said, given a few drinks I'm sure we could stay up all night on this topic.

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TeknicolorTiger In reply to OdeeSS [2012-08-31 00:44:05 +0000 UTC]

Oh definately. XD I'd love to talk werewolves over [insert drink of choice here]. XD I don't often get the opportunity to chat about such things; atleast not without feeling like an embarressment.

But it sounds like a good idea in regards to your lines, I mean. I've toyed with a similar idea in the past - using lines to separate some details while using shadow and colors in others. It certainly helps.

Also, I agree with everything you just said about werewolves. X3 I've struggled with anxiety and depression my entire life and was raised with a bi-polar older brother and had a father with a similar disorder. I guess it's because of this that I've such an interest in psychology. I'm pretty stable now thanks to finding the right combo of meds and counseling, but I totally know what you mean about having to struggle with an inner demon. There were a lot of times growing up where I became enraged and felt empowered by it and enjoyed it. I was a bit of a bully but I liked to bully other bullies as they were surprisingly easy targets because they were already insecure and a lot would hesitate to hit a girl who wasn't afraid to get in their faces. I've changed a lot since then, jeez. I'm a total wuss now. XD But, yeah, I write Autumn a lot like how I've felt living with this side of myself; being afraid of it and yet grateful for having it because I felt it empowered me in some way. But as you said, it's not a socially acceptable aspect of myself, so I've had to bury it. I've sometimes wondered if this side of ourselves isn't perhaps some leftover from having evolved too fast; we're still all territorial, primitive apes trying to keep comfortable in our surging hierarchy and constant need for reassurance. Like you say, our instincts are there but we've become so used to them we don't see them any more, or they're otherwise overshadowed by our intelligence, but they unconciously creep into our sociology all the time.

The werewolf is definitely an overexaggeration of these instincts, I think. I can understand why many people would make the connection that a were"wolf" should look more like an ape. The ape is a primitive form of man, and is scary because it's so like us and yet unlike us at the same time. Apes, to me, are frightening enough in and of themselves, they deserve to embody their own monstrous aspect. Making a werewolf look too much like an ape is almost overkill to me, but I've always much preferred the wolf look, because an ape is still too close to ourselves. We already acknowledge that we are primates. The wolf is quite far removed from us, identity-wise and biologically. And there's all this myth and legend surrounding them as keepers of the wilderness and the eater of small, lost children. Our indirect relationship with the wolf is what makes it a suitable animal to be half of in this case. It's Otherness is a great representation of our subconciousness and its dog-like behaviour becomes an aberration when applied to something as intelligent as a human. I think an important aspect of being a werewolf is, as you say, that whole journey of trying to discover how much of you is human and how much animal and eventually discovering that you are both and neither. You're something completely new, which in and of itself, can imply both something special and wonderful, but also something terrible and monstrous.

Clearly, werewolves don't always have to be monstrous or internally conflicted to have appeal, but to me that's definitely more of a defining feature of a werewolf is the internal struggle (not necessarily the ability to control your forms). Without that, you just become a shapeshifter. Speaking of shifting, I also agree that the beginning stages of a transformation would be very similar to an anxiety attack (especially that skin-tingling sensation and the inability to sit still. >.<) The unfiltered fear that you're losing control of your body, and sometimes your reality, is probably a key factor.

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OdeeSS In reply to TeknicolorTiger [2012-09-02 16:08:19 +0000 UTC]

A couple of months ago I got some interesting responses when I asked my boyfriend about his opinions on werewolf behavior and appearances. They were interesting because they were coming from someone who wasn't a werewolf fan and doesn't have strong feelings about what they 'should' be. For one, when I asked him about artistic rendering of genitalia, he surprised me by saying that werewolves missing their junk just looked wrong and that he couldn't understand why anyone would be offended by canine genitalia on a werewolf. When I described to him the concept behind "tribal weres" he was primarily annoyed by their pseudo/historically inaccurate Native American vibe (he's working on a degree in Archaeology) but he also criticized the idea of werewolves having an animistic/shamanistic type spirituality -- he stated that "being half animal" would make them as spiritually sophisticated as an enraged chimpanzee.

I really dislike apelike werewolves because I can't stand chimps, or most of the great apes for that matter. Chimps are just too human to me -- they're like brutish, hirsute assholes. On one hand, I think it's the 'chimp' aspects that really put the MONSTER in a werewolf, but I also dislike limiting werewolf flaws to only anthropological ones: I still think that a werewolf has a lot more to say than a Jekyll and Hyde 'missing link.'

I think that the idea that wolves represent a certain mystery to us makes us more open to finding the 'beauty' in their mentality rather than withdrawing with revulsion from otherwise psychopathic, base human compulsions.

Admittedly, I'm still enamored with wolves and I try to illustrate what I find to be a romantic concept -- the idea of beauty in being a beast or beauty in a werewolf 'lifestyle.' So when I find myself drawing very "mainstream" werewolves, I often stick pointy ears just to say that they'll never be perfect, docile beasts to me. I always want my werewolves to have something "other" about them.

I like to consider werewolves as unnatural and apart from humans and canines entirely. I want my werewolves to look a lot like buffed up wolves, but at the same time with eerie details that tell you that something isn't right -- exaggerated teeth, pointy web-like ears, whites around the iris, spooky paw hands, etc. I think once someone is bitten and changed, that they will never revert to either being completely ape or canine, either physically or mentally.

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TeknicolorTiger In reply to OdeeSS [2012-09-03 13:29:56 +0000 UTC]

It's funny you should mention the genitalia thing. XD That's something I've always kinda copped out on. For some reason I don't like the way my werewolves look when I draw them with a canine sheath. It makes them *too* canine, I think, though I am considering experimenting with the style a bit more, especially since I recently started drawing them with carpal pads which I held off on doing for a long time because again, I thought it made the design wander a little too far from humanoid, which is what I really would like to retain. (I added the carpal pad because it actually made sense to have it considering how mine shift between walking on the balls of their hands to flat-palmed when running. From what I understand, in most animals that have them, it's presumed that they act as breaks for when the animal is jumping or running and keeps their paws from slipping forward...At least that's what I read, and in this case it made extra sense, but anyway....) In some of my earlier sketches I did draw visible genitalia on them because it was logical but then I found it to be just generally too distracting. Maybe I'm a perv or secretly sexually repressed or something, but even when I made it modest I found I kept looking at it and it seemed to take something away from the design itself. So I started drawing it "furred over" with a significant lump/dangling bit still visible to at least have something to represent its sex. The fur down there is particularly thick and longish to protect it, and is even more dense if the individual has not be circumsized (more skin = more surface area for fuzz). And this is probably the longest paragraph you will ever read regarding werewolf junk.

As for the second part of your first paragraph concerning werewolves and their "spiritual philosophy", I think I'd only really half agree though it's intriguing that your boyfriend explained it like that. One one hand, it makes absolute perfect sense to me, and it's how I approach my werewolves in my book. On the other, it really does depend on the "kind" of werewolf we're talking about. The people who depict psuedo-Native American werewolves seem to think that they should lack any kind of internal conflict, or at least one that isn't severe enough to qualify as monstrous or even a problem, I suppose. Their werewolves are generally unified in that their bestial and human halves function as one in the same and there's no conflicting emotions or thought processes between the two. The animal half is accepted as a neutral, sometimes even benevolent or glorified, totem. I'd say that the wolf aspect represents Nature in general and not human nature. In this case, I can see a shamanistic approach working for them, but there's a fine line between shapeshifter/skinwalker and werewolf. As I said, if it lacks that internal struggle it is not a werewolf to me, it's a run-of-the-mill shapeshifter or at it's most basic, an anthro wolf that has the ability to take on human form. Some might call it a skinwalker, I guess, but after reading more about them, I'm not sure how accurate that would be either.

But anyway, I definitely agree that trying to apply a shamanistic philosophy to an entire race of werewolves seems too unrealistic and romantic to me. I could see perhaps maybe an individual having this affinity but not all of them. But I guess it really does depend on how you want to approach the entire werewolf philosophy.

But to narrow our focus on our respective views, I can't see my werewolves in general having a spiritual/shamanistic kind of relationship with their wolf personalities, but then I treat it more as a psychological thing rather than merely a spiritual one. Consequently, I leave it more up to the individual character to figure out based on the elements I've given them. In this case, that all of my werewolf characters are pretty much complete basketcases that have to decide how they're going to cope with having an alternate personality that embodies powerful urges to eat people, mark territory, and sniff butts. lol Obviously, I enjoy romanticising my werewolves to a degree as well, but sometimes trying to convey them as the visceral, ugly creatures for what they are I find equally as satisfying. In fact, I've been trying not to shy away from writing about certain acts and ideas in my book because I really shouldn't have to, and I, myself, enjoy reading stories that just don't give a shit in regards to content and does what it wants. I want my werewolves to be believable even if the way I design them, at least physiologically, is anything but.

Also, I couldn't agree more with your last paragraph. I actually just wrote a section in my novel in which a character observes that werewolves are no more "wolf" than they are "human" and beyond a few physical and behaviorial resemblances, are really their own creature altogether. They're wolves with the intelligence and instinctual drive of a great ape. Not to mention, opposable thumbs! I'll never understand why humanoid werewolves seem to forget they have thumbs. Truly, a more terrifying werewolf is one that can open doors let alone rip through them. XD

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OdeeSS In reply to TeknicolorTiger [2012-09-04 02:49:07 +0000 UTC]

That was probably the longest paragraph I've read about werewolf genitalia, but I can't deny that I've had countless smaller conversations about them that would total beyond how much you wrote, lol.

No, I'm not personally into drawing genitalia, and it's for exactly the same reason you mentioned: that it's just too distracting. I also think it's far too difficult to not over exaggerate the junk, but at the same time don't depreciate it to the extent that it's obvious you're trying to undersize it.

However, I "advocate" werewolf genitalia in the same sense I advocate werewolves that break the Deviantart/Anthro mold. I really love what you said about reading stories that "don't give a shit" in regards to content. It's not that I'm particularly fond of 'offensive' werewolves, but I find myself adoring artists who don't see a reason to keep their content pleasant for the sake of others. This is why I encourage werewolf dick drawing on a regular basis. Personally, I don't like it, but I love artists who are dedicated to their own vision of realism, nudity and all.

(However, I would never say that just because someone isn't at least mildly offensive that they're not 'trying enough' or their material isn't 'deep' or 'meaningful' enough. You don't have to be offend to be considered serious.)

This really tempts me to start getting into a conversation about offensive material that I find acceptable (as ironic as that sounds, lol!). I'm okay with obscenity as it relates to reality -- sexuality, violence, and selfishness are all a part of our reality. I like that you seem to handle your werewolves in such a way that a line between chaste and obscene doesn't exist -- it's all part of one reality that we choose on our own to categorize. But on the other hand, I have a problem with obscenity for the point of being offensive, to act cool, or to actually hurt people. Hurtful obscenity doesn't need to exist, to me it's offensive because it often reflects an unhealthy and cruel personal flaw involving disrespect/cruelty/bigotry/etc. But telling 'it as it is' (and not hiding bigotry under the banner of "honesty")with openness to interpretation is obscenity I can agree with.

I guess I could say that there's "objective" obscenity -- representation of information to be interpreted -- versus "subjective" obscenity -- hurtful, flawed interpretation of information passed on as objectivity.

I think what makes good quality art, music, and literature is a dedication on the author's behalf to put the time and effort into making what THEY like and allowing others to decide if they like or not on their own.

And yeah, I think a werewolf's spirituality would reflect their individual and not so much what the are. Religion -- mono/polytheistic, animistic, whathaveyou whatever -- could easily be fueled by an individual lycanthrope's desire to understand themselves and I don't think that being a werewolf makes them more prone to adopt a certain mentality. If anything, the 'catalyst' of lycanthropy would probably create an insane amount of variation between reponses, personalities, values, beliefs, etc just because it's not a 'normal' thing that we have any understanding of how to cope with.

Also, I agree entirely about "shapeshifters" losing the excitement of a werewolf!

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TeknicolorTiger In reply to OdeeSS [2012-09-05 23:03:18 +0000 UTC]

^
Pretty much all this. lol

I've tried several times just now to justify why I do what I do with my art and writing but I can't really seem to come up with anything that makes sense. o.< I do pretty much what you just said; I draw and write what I feel. If other people like it then that's a plus. I can't really explain it without sounding really convoluted. All this attention I've been getting has just been recent so I'm not exactly sure what I'm doing "right" at the moment, because I'm still doing what I love and I'm becoming more comfortable and more confident in my art and writing. At the same time, I know there's always room to improve which is why I love it when people critique me.

But ANYWAY, violence and sexuality are just tools to me. Like color schemes, poses, and lighting. They're content just like anything else. And like the composition of a piece, if you draw something out of place it can wreck the whole picture or at least confuse your audience. If you include violence or sexuality in a piece - since both stick out so much to us humans - and don't justify it in some way, it'll seem gratuitious, empty, and uninteresting and most people may only give it a passing glance, or at worse be utterly offended by it, unless that's exactly what they're in the mood for. Sex, I guess, is a little different, because it seems to get along well enough without prior context, but yeah...it all boils down to taste.

Oddly enough, I'm working on another painting of Hayden right now. It's mildly suggestive without showing anything but also quite violent...or at least there's evidence of violence. I can't help but feel that I opt to depict this kind of stuff because I do enjoy it, so there's a kind of indulgence there, but I more or less enjoy showing off extreme aspects of my characters. Especially Hayden because I find him so fascinating as a character and I want others to see him the way I do. Now, a while back I was involved in a group that had some heavy censorship rules that I wasn't aware of until I tried to submit some pieces depicting some of Hayden's less scrupulous habits, most notably his interactions with women. Hayden has a very complicated relationship with the opposite sex; they're either food for his wolf, or a sexual partner for him...sometimes both. The pictures I created illustrated this and the mods took offense, pointing out the fact that all of the pictures I had tried to submit included violence against women in some way (even if one of the sketches was not intended to at all, but whatever. Doesn't matter now but that's what they saw in it.) During the discussion we had, I felt like I was almost being attacked for having a character that could do this to women, as if to say I not only condoned this behavior but enjoyed it. Even though, for the record, they never came out and said this. I know from experience that I don't enjoy it. I don't like being hit and I don't like being threatened with rape or death and no one, especially women, should have to go through that. Hayden is my way of trying to understand this behaviour because that's the way I am. I like to figure things out, because this shit actually happens and is happening right now. Yes, I do find it fascinating, but it's more or less an individual, character thing. It's a symptom of a bigger, more complicated problem. I find psychology and ethology - including human behavior - fascinating and something I enjoy exploring through my characters. I'm not drawing a picture of just some guy mutilating a woman; I'm drawing a picture of Hayden, the psycho werewolf, doing what he does. I felt pretty offended when they told me to "take the character in another direction".

I think this would be a really good example about what you said regarding "objective"/ "subjective" obscenity. Censorship is actually something I feel rather strongly about as I've been censored quite a bit in my career as an artist. Growing up I liked drawing pictures of dinosaurs fighting and dragons burning villages and monsters eating people, and my teachers thought I needed therapy. lol Admittedly, I was exposed to violence pretty early in my life, which has probably contributed to my depression and anxiety, but when I was little, I didn't see violence as something universally evil. I saw it as natural. But even I much preferred peace, so I, myself, wasn't violent and actually tried to get everyone to get along. I was often the peacekeeper amongst my group of friends, I guess because I knew how much it hurt. But anyway...

Werewolves are often associated with both violence and sexuality (though probably to a lesser extent. They're often depicted as a passive metaphor, because most people think horny man-wolf = bestiality. Or at best, furry erotica.) This is probably something even I'm having a hard time with writing about in my book just because of those selfsame reservations. On the other hand, they're animals, they're overflowing with hyperactive instincts and urges and what do animals do best but fuck and eat? lol So far I've got the eating part downpat, but the fucking....is proving a challenge without seeming...fetishistic or glorified in some way. Which sucks because sexuality is a fairly strong theme in my story. And yes, part of it is the fear of what others will think about me if they read it...which I know is kind of ironic considering how free I am with most other aspects of my work.

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TeknicolorTiger In reply to Buhaaghule [2012-08-20 03:32:52 +0000 UTC]

Thankk you. And I'll be posting the first chapter shortly.

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Buhaaghule In reply to TeknicolorTiger [2012-08-21 16:55:15 +0000 UTC]

Sweet!!

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TeknicolorTiger In reply to PreciousAngelWings [2012-08-20 03:33:06 +0000 UTC]

lol Thank you. Hayden always gets her hackles up. XD

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PreciousAngelWings In reply to TeknicolorTiger [2012-08-20 05:56:21 +0000 UTC]

haha it's adorable XP

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TeknicolorTiger In reply to Wuuthrad [2012-08-15 19:13:58 +0000 UTC]

Thank you very much!

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TeknicolorTiger In reply to Edeneue [2012-08-15 19:14:05 +0000 UTC]

Thank you!

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TeknicolorTiger In reply to liger0schnider [2012-08-15 19:14:11 +0000 UTC]

Thanks.

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