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TurnerMohan In reply to MoArtProductions [2014-12-13 22:35:43 +0000 UTC]

uggh, i knew that comparison was coming before i opened the picture. i'm not the biggest fan of jackson's trolls, particularly as featured in the hobbit movies.

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MoArtProductions In reply to TurnerMohan [2015-02-09 06:22:51 +0000 UTC]

Just checked it out. Turns out those were Orgres, which Tolkien actually referred in his stories (The Appendices I warrant)

Looking back on this particular drawing, I notice his cranium is double domed, like an indian elephant, which gives a some what asian or persian-like essence like he's one of those un-human minions of Xerxes in 300... which I am not a fan of for several preferable reasons.

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TurnerMohan In reply to MoArtProductions [2015-02-09 06:53:55 +0000 UTC]

yep that's why i did it, to make him look persian.

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MoArtProductions In reply to TurnerMohan [2015-02-09 08:18:44 +0000 UTC]

...Really? 

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TurnerMohan In reply to MoArtProductions [2015-02-09 18:48:06 +0000 UTC]

no, not really, there are alot of other types of animals that have that type of skull. i mention one in my description

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MoArtProductions In reply to TurnerMohan [2015-02-09 19:09:26 +0000 UTC]

*Re-Reads the description page* Oh... Oh! *Blushes*

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MoArtProductions In reply to TurnerMohan [2014-12-13 22:57:35 +0000 UTC]

I think this is supposed to be some kind of Orc or Goblin, either way I sincerely apologize for sharing.

BTW, have you see some of my orcs, or the orcs drawn by Mara999?

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TurnerMohan In reply to Zeonista [2013-10-23 22:17:39 +0000 UTC]

actually a pair of old time mutton chops (with the bald head) would work quite nicely. I discussed at some length with ElrondPeredhel below about how I see alot of tolkien's baddies (the orcs or ofcourse the three trolls) as kind of evoking crude 19th/20th century english ruffians in their speech and manner, and sideburns would add to that "victorian back-alley thug" vibe I see the character of azog as possessing, definitely the type you might expect to see showing up in something like "snatch."

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Zeonista In reply to TurnerMohan [2013-10-23 22:27:17 +0000 UTC]

Your image of Azog is not untoward for the earlier form of uruk-hai, who were basically Orc 2.0 types of creatures. It would be easy to mistake them for the larger and tougher forms of common orc found in the Misty Mountains at the top of the goblin/orc pecking order. Azog's man-like proportions seem more like those of the White Hand (who were mainly half-orcs that favored the orcish side of their lineage) or a further refinement, like some of the tall orcs that Peter Jackson had marching out of the Black Gate in ROTK. The debased Regency/early Victorian image is not out of place; see my comments below.

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TurnerMohan In reply to Zeonista [2013-10-23 22:46:03 +0000 UTC]

tolkien describes the character as a "big orc," which got me wondering how big, exactly, a big orc is supposed to be. the Uruk-hai of saruman are described, i believe as being nearly man height, and the half orcs that marched on helm's deep as being probably taller ("man-high, but with goblin faces") i figure azog, being a big orc, but naturally occuring and centuries before saruman's genetic tamperings, would sit somewhere in the "nearly man height" range, 5'6" or thereabouts, but, like any chimp that size, quite a lot to handle; long arms, huge hands, thickly muscled and powerful, a much more impressive specimen than the average moria goblin (who I seat as varied in stature but roughly dwarf height on average) but yeah generally peter jackson's 6'4" maori stuntmen (punctuated by the ocassional 7ft+ monstrosity) were a bit too lofty for my vision of orcs.

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Zeonista In reply to TurnerMohan [2013-10-24 03:06:52 +0000 UTC]

Most of that I put down to the influence of games, both electronic and tabletop these days. Most RPG orcs these days are (by LOTR standards) uruk-hai in size and physique, and pretty bulky ones at that. Half-orcs are pretty much depicted as a distinct "race" of human-proportioned uruk body-builders. (Turbine's Lord of the Rings Online is a notable exception, with a good range of orc physiognomy.) The LOTR movie trilogy has its own internal logic tossed into the mix. with the Last Alliance orcs, Isengard goblins, and Moria orcs keeping to standard orcish build, while the uruk-hai are tailor-made footballers, and the ROTK Mordor orcs show a definite uruk influence, even to most of the ranker soldiers. (The group that Sam& Frodo get mixed into are all snaga-types though.)  That all being said, Ugluk per text was a tall & powerfully built orc, able to intimidate others by his size. Shagrat was big enough for Sam to play it safe while stalking him. Azog was mentioned as "big", and even accounting for the Dwarven perspective, he would have been a big bruiser. Even accounting for the inevitable stoop of navigating tight quarters underground, Azog would have been taller than any Dwarf or common orc; Dain Ironfoot made a name for himself by slaying such a powerful foe at a young age! The orc-chieftain mentioned in the fight in the Chamber of Mazarbul is "almost man-high", which doesn't sound like much until one realizes the men serving as comparison are Boromir and Aragorn! 

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TurnerMohan In reply to Zeonista [2013-10-25 22:34:21 +0000 UTC]

yes indeed games have taken orcs, originally small goblin-like creatures, and turned them into, more often than not, the incredible hulk with a topknot and an underbite (where are all these orc gyms?) this seems very ill suited to tolkien's vision of the orc species. the movies were okay, and, as you mention, my favorite orcs onscreen in terms of being "orcish" were the 2nd age mordor orcs, and the moria orcs. It seems like "almost man high" is about as big as orcs get. I never do know what tolkien means by "man high," i'm usually inclined to think that the average height for the men of middle earth would be whatever it is for people in the real world (with most men falling in the 5'6" to 5'10" range) with the "northmen" and the "dunedain" on the north side of average, and the dunlandings, men of bree, and (some of) the easterlings a bit on the south, but then when he refers to galadriel as "man high" it is probable that he means the old numenorean "two rangar," or 6'4" (boromir is said in tolkien's notes to be 6'4", and aragorn 6'6", both tall for their day, but shorter than dunedain of such high birth would have been in numenor's hey day) and I dont know why, but I doubt that, when calling an orc "almost man high," he means That big. the half orcs of isengard (as i'd mentioned before, are taller than even big regular orcs at "man high with goblin faces") were probably meant to be more like 5'8" or so than 6'4".

I would think azog at any height in the middle-to-upper 5' range and built like a house (and knowing how to fight) would be a rather goliath-like figure to the (I would imagine 4'6" to 5') dwarves, but far less so to an adversary like, say, eomer (who is remarked to have killed ugluk in single combat, an orc captain who could probably stand as comparable to azog in size and fighting prowess)

this is, ofcourse, my own opinion only, and tolkien never geeked out on his audience with feet and inches and those kind of point for point "deadliest warrior" stats that effectively rob heroic duels and swordplay of all their romance, but when considering these things for the purpose of concept art, that's usually where I land.

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Zeonista In reply to TurnerMohan [2013-10-27 19:12:04 +0000 UTC]

Tolkien said in many places that the common orcs, let alone the lesser sort more readily known as "goblins", were inferior to Elves and Men in height and applicable strength, although the orcs were always strong for their size. In "The Disaster of the Gladden Fields" Isildur's guard, all of them pure-blood or mixed-blood Numenorians, tower over the orcs, easily repelling the first assault with strong blows. In the accounts of the second battle of the fords of the Isen, it is said that Dunlendings are used to attack the Riders' shield-wall, since they are closer in stature to the men of Rohan than most of the orcs. Still, many of the orcs, especially the large orcs of the mountains who lorded it over the goblins, and who later on would have some uruk blood in them, would be on the long side of five feet in height, with broad shoulders and a barrel chest for strength, or a wiry, whipcord strength to draw a bow or mount a warg. (In fixed lines of battle, they would be inferior to Men or Elves, but as a raiding party, watch out!) At the Battle of Five Armies Tolkien states that Bolg and his bodyguard from Gundabad are taller, stronger, and fiercer than most of the goblin-host.

As a side note, I do believe that Tolkien used two rangar as "standard height" per Numenorian-derived measures. It seems like a standard measurement, like an ell or cubit. (A 38" tall Hobbit would literally be a "halfling"!) Based on that, most orcs would not be close to "man high", being a good foot or so (at most) under that, due to breeding or a permanent stoop from ducking through all those cavern tunnels. An orc-chieftain who was "almost man-high" and a heroic leader for his tribe might be six feet tall and built like an NFL linebacker with extra-length arms, a very respectable foe indeed! Ugluk was much taller than Grishnakh (a standard orc), comparable to a man of Rohan, with a more discernible height due to his straight-legged, straight-backed posture. (The last detail is mostly my own emphasis from the description in TTT 3:1, since in MERP I have had to describe various orcs to a willing audience. Regular orcs could easily be distinguished from Men or Dwarves at a distance. The uruk-hai of Isengard are mostly half-orcs favoring the orcish side instead of being squint-eyed men looking "half like a goblin" in the detail. So I made a human-like physique the tell for the White Hand, or for the elite uruk-hai of Mordor who were the last word in Sauron's evolution of the race on the purely(?) orcish side.)
 

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MoArtProductions In reply to ElrondPeredhel [2015-06-29 06:08:54 +0000 UTC]

I read the Hobbit myself, and I don't remember Azog saying anything funny... OH wait, your referring to the Appendices? Shoot it's been a couple years since I read that one again and I don't remember everything I read from it. Please tell me, what did Azog say exactly that was funny?

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ElrondPeredhel In reply to MoArtProductions [2015-08-13 14:10:28 +0000 UTC]

It is in the appendices, not in the Hobbit in which Azog is just briefly mentionned, but he doesn't say antything funny. It's just that the way he talks makes him sound like a XIXth century thug, bragging and laughing, which make it funny because of the gap between him and the very serious and medieval Dwarves.

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TurnerMohan In reply to ElrondPeredhel [2013-10-19 16:43:58 +0000 UTC]

I agree on the chainmail and leather armor, i was not a big fan of the shirtless "orc conan" look they gave him in the movie, with this drawing (which started as a simple headshot and expanded outward) i was thinking about putting him in armor, but got sucked in by the opportunity for another orcish figure study.

One of the traits not only of tolkien's work but of much of fairy tale literature (going back at least to shakespeare) is that fairy tale creatures, especially villainous ones, tend to talk like people of the more or less contemporary day. despite the black/sallow skinned, apelike, mongoloid appearance of orcs, they are almost always written, like the three trolls, as speaking like 19-20th century lower-class englishmen, like the weasels in Kenneth Graham's "the Wind in the Willows" or the titular big friendly giant in Roald Dhal's "The BFG" (unlike say smaug, who talks like an aristocrat) and with Azog I always got the impression of a big, nasty London back-alley thug from the Victorian era (like Mr Hyde, or some of the more unpleasant characters in Dickens) atleast in his speech and manner, and that's a "style" that, while threatening and unpleasant, has an inherent humor and charm to it. It's hard for me to picture him not smiling, in battle or otherwise.

as for who/what he is, you make some really interesting points. The Boldogs of the first age, like the wargs, vampire bats, or ungoliante (or huan for that matter) are all ainur who chose to appear in middle earth, in the forms of creatures of middle earth (some greater like ungoliante, some lesser like those spirits which inhabited the wargs or boldogs) and as ungoliante proves, like melian, the bad ainur were also able to have children. I could see azog as the long descendent of a boldog from the 1st age. 

When writing the webcomic series I mentioned above, I always liked to think (and this is not mentioned by tolkien, but I'm not above a little fanfiction ) that there are roughly two types of orcs in moria at azog's time; the smaller, more "goblin" type, natives of the mountains who came to moria first and on their own, and are the majority, and then a smaller but dominant class of big uruks from mordor, sent by Sauron (this would explain why the goblins of the misty mountains are usually described as being small, but they have big captains among them like azog, bolg, the great goblin, or the black mailed orc who spears frodo) Azog and his retainers (black skinned in my imagination) are descendants of the latter, and I can see him being proud of his Mordor lineage, and contemptuous of the lesser orcs, who he sees as being small, weak and cowardly. Also I like the idea that he often boldly blasphemes against the "Burzughashu" ("the dark fire" in orcish, a name the goblins gave the balrog, who exists for them as this Cthulhu-esq, great and terrible but mostly unseen god) and many of the goblins are made uneasy by azog's irreverence, thinking trouble will one day come of it (which of course basically does happen)

But yeah that exuberance and charisma he seems to posses in his few lines in the appendices was missing in the film, regrettably. I'd considered putting Nar in here, weeping and terrified, with azog's big, sinewy arm draped over his shoulder, drawing his big ugly face and rank mouth horribly close, holding thrain's head by the hair in his other hand (not the way the scene was done in the book, but azog of all characters seems like the type who'd indulge in a bit of bravado)

You aught to put up that old drawing of yours if you can find it, I'd love to have a look.

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Zeonista In reply to TurnerMohan [2013-10-23 22:07:31 +0000 UTC]

Tolkien said at one point that he based the orcs' behavior and speech patterns from people he had known in his military service. Hence the bully-boy NCO attitude of the leaders, the gang-like unit loyalty, the grousing about duty, and the cockney accent. No PC soft-lens portrait of the urban poor here, Tolkien must have met some of the "lifers" recruited from the east-end slums of London or yobbos from the poor side of the northern industrial towns. Not nice people, "enlisted for drink", but good soldiers when put to it. Tolkien did worry that he had made the Orcs soulless, faceless sword fodder for the heroes, but various analytical types have noted a sort of base militarized humanity in them. Ugluk and his fellow White Hand uruk-hai have a swagger and unit pride to them. Shagrat and Gorbag are old soldiers who know that their lot is to do all the hard work, regardless of how "the war" is going on. Azog is the Orc who would be King.

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TurnerMohan In reply to Zeonista [2014-02-25 04:24:01 +0000 UTC]

I would count this as a response to your last comment about the size and physicality of the orcs above, as i feel that their physicality and character are related.

no indeed tolkien was not exactly crafting a sensitive portrait of society's "lower elements" (insofar as the orcs could even be said to be so) in fact I tend to think of tolkien's attitude toward class relations (again, as presented through the orcs and "wicked" men, especially in the instance of a fight) as being this distinctly old-time, aristocratic, sort-of-Byronic conviction (or at least it can be easily applied to Lord Byron's writing, although it is an attitude which seems to have been prevalent from the time of Homer all the way up to karl marx) of "men-of-parts-are-worth-a-hundred-scum-anyday." In middle-earth it's pretty much a given that, exempting arrows, an elf or noble warrior among men can be expected to take many, many orcs (or even lesser men) at a time, with little-to-no harm to his person. this is a very romantic notion on tolkien's part, an as I said a distinctly aristocratic and old fashioned one (old fashioned to the point of being almost completely out of fashion; I think most other 20th century authors, if they had written lord of the rings, would have probably been more likely to view the massed, downtrodden, bully-boy orc soldiers as sympathetic characters, if not outright underdog working-class heroes, opposite the cold, lordly elves and haughty men of the west, in fact their is a book you may have heard of "the last ring bearer," which is the lord of the rings re-written in exactly these terms)

I like to think of the orcs, physically as well as in their speech and character, as being, like the members of the real-life working class, quite formidable in their own way. your remarks on their wiry, whipchord type strength (coupled of course with tolkien's own consistent descriptions of their cruel strong hands and long arms) evoke for me the image of Hornblower-era british seamen scurrying up the lines, or industrial-era factory workers, or even the work-hardened black slaves on pre-civil war plantations; a race of these rough-hewn, sinewy beings, not big, handsome, well-raised and well-fed "gentlemen" like the elves or some men, not as well armed or trained with weapons, but possessing this animal ferocity and sort of mutually goading-on pack-animal courage. depending upon how I'm feeling at the time it's pretty hard not to root for them; they seem (if taken a certain way, and certainly not the way an old-school classist like tolkien would have favored, but apparent nonetheless in my opinion) alive and possessed of a fleshy, dirty reality of which the lounging, shimmering, anne-rice-vampire-like elves gathered in the hall of fire don't. It's not hard to picture the rutting, barely-consensual mess that is orcish sexuality, or the interpersonal power plays of a charismatic big dog like azog, the little kids who want to be him, the underling beta dogs who follow his every move, and the skulking dissenters who can't stand him but don't dare to say so openly. they're like humanity's more beastial, obvious side; all of our bad or just horribly undignified traits, opposite the elves who, like living greek statues, embody all the subtlety and nobility and in a way cold and unreal perfection of mind and body that we idealize.

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Zeonista In reply to TurnerMohan [2014-02-25 19:21:09 +0000 UTC]

As this was an old post, I needed to get back to the discussion at hand first to give a good answer.

Character and physicality do have connection in the terms of old-fashioned epic story telling. Not so old-fashioned either, since it wasn't until the previous century that it became impolite to automatically associate "looking foul" with "feeling foul", to borrow the simile from Frodo. Indeed, in Orcs that is the case, no metaphor needed. Indeed, the conversation with Strider at the Prancing Pony turns into an ironic comparison between the trail-worn Ranger, Butterbur, Bill Ferny, and the Ringwraiths in terms of being trustworthy despite outside appearances. So Tolkien knew when ugly = evil and when it just meant somebody in need of better looks or better manners. However, for the Orcs Tolkien did not just address all of working-man Britain as ultimately sub-human; that would be H.G. Wells! The Professor knew from first-hand experience in the Army of the conditions that turned men into beasts, and kept them beastly all their lives, even onto the battlefield where they ought to rise to the occasion for King and Country like he learned in school. (A quick survey of news on the Internet will show that an orcish strain in humans seems to continue no matter what we do in this modern age.) Those characteristics were written into the Orcs, and with their goblin appearance made them the perfect storm troopers for his Dark Lords. Ugluk's band of White Hand archers recalls the English soldiers of the Hundred Years' War who willingly participated in the chevauchees that at times turned western France into a wasteland, so it's hardly a condemnation of the Twentieth Century alone either. Those things have tended to occur whenever war has not been restrained by conventions enforced by all sides. In that downfallen respect we can understand why & how the Orcs act as they do. In fact, the meddling of Morgoth & Sauron to skew them towards that sort of action is one of their worst evils for having done so.

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ElrondPeredhel In reply to TurnerMohan [2013-10-19 23:25:09 +0000 UTC]

Well that's very nice of you but I'm afraid I don't have a scanner and I probably lost anyway. And even if I didn't... well, I'm not sure I really wanna see how it looked like. Better having only a memory of it.

I wasn't criticizing your naked-Azog. I saw it as a more personnalized attempt to your classic "Orc-body-study". And that's a good one, it reall makes me whish to see what you could do with such a concept and Ugluk, Grishnak, Shagrat, Gorbad and all the others...

As for your explanation on Azog being some kind of "Victorian thug" (or Mr.Hyde). That's really refreshing to speak to an anglos-saxon fan cause it gave me some new vision that I'm never gonna have with the usual french-Tolkien-experts. It's easy to see with the Three Trolls (eve, more with the new translation which give them some really local "rednecks" names and speaking behaviour) but it wasn't that obvious for Azog.

For the Wargs, some make the hypothesis that they could be, like for the Wraith of the Barrow Downs, some kind of lost Elven souls. Tolkien did sepak about lost souls, who never came to Mandos, and full of hartred. And Sauron took his name of necromancer cause him and his disciples were using those souls. And the wraith apperead from Angmar and the Wargs in Tol-in-Gauroth. Given to the fact that the Wargs are really numerous I prefer the idea that only the mightiest (like Glaudruin and the alpah-males and may be Charcaroth...) could have been Maiar.

But yeah the idea of Azog being a lesser descendant of a more noble kind (much more like the movie-Azog : handsome, more "elvish" -and vene Orcs in general could have been less degenerated at this time-, less ape-like, etc...). Like Charcharoth, a mighty and huge black werewolve, compared to some grey-haired warg of the TA.

It seems to me that there are always two types of Orcs in each group :

- In Ugluk's warband, like in Shagrat's garnison, there are Orcs called "snaga".

- Among the "notherners" in the TT, it is said that the tallest/strongest join Ugluk's group.

- Tolkien mention some Orcs well-trained (and some others trained for forest-fights) during the First Age.

- During the Gladden-Fields the are some "greater-Orcs" mentionned also.

Also, speaking about Uruks, Tolkien did mention the idea that there could have been some Uruks in the FA. Cause he said that both Sauron and Saruman came with Uruks on their own and that Sarulan re-discovered ancient secrets to breed humans and Orcs or something like that.
But I can't see your Azog as an Uruk in the way that he is not human-enough. For me Uruks, opposite to previous great orcs (which look like bigger chimps or even like gorillas), are like a midway between chimps/orcs and humans. Everything is done to give that impression : they are good runners, they use longbows like men (and not horn-bows like Orcs), swords (and not scimitars) etc. I guess they are not only taller but also straighter in the way they stand and walk, with their back straight and not curved, etc.

But all your idea of Azog being proud of his Mordorian origins, etc. Are really thougtful and interisting. But his blasphemise against the Balrog are kind of opposed to the idea of the "Balrog-helmet" for the Moria-King. Don't know which one I prefer though, they are both cool !
I never heard of the "Burzugashu", where does that came from ? You made it up ? It sounds orcish anyway and I recognize the "gash" though, and it does sound like the dialogues of the Orcs in the TT ("The Uruk-hai" is probably one of the best chapters from Tolkien's hand).

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TurnerMohan In reply to ElrondPeredhel [2013-10-20 05:57:11 +0000 UTC]

I'm glad you feel some of my ideas about azog's speech and character can provide you with a more "anglo-saxon" perspective, it's one of the more charming, fairy tale like things about tolkien's world, especially in the hobbit and LOTR, that some of the characters (especially the orcs) seem far less archaic in their speech and general manner than the full blown "thee, thy, thou" of the silmarillion. I'd like to take a stab at Ugluk, Grishnakh, Shagrat, Gorbag, ect. especially as i think the "champion orc" is over represented in my presentations of the species so far; their population has no shortage of scrawny, wrinked, sagging, or otherwise wretched specimines, far outnumbering the Azogs and ugluks.

very excellent point about movie azog; he is much closer to my picture of some first age, maiar-inhabited boldog, or a vampire of sauron-occupied Tol-in-Gaurhoth than an orc of the third age, he's too straight backed, handsome, demonically evil, and posesses that kind of humorless archaic dignity you expect from the mid-level forces of darkness in the silmarillion (helped in part by speaking only in subtitled orcish, not cockney english)

tell you the truth I'd agonized over that point about the Helmet for the longest time; I'm very proud of the design, and of the ideas that went into it, but at the same time, from a dramatic, storytelling standpoint, it works very well to have this conflict and the dichotomy of Azog as the king of the moria orcs, but also disrespecting and even at times calling out the balrog (challenges which the balrog, who hasnt been seen in living memory, never answers, throwing doubt on whether he even exists) it worked really well for the story, but the helmet (and the particular story behind that) was originally intended as a concept design for a movie prop (something bolg could wear onscreen, and who azog, who is seen briefly in flashback but never fleshed out as a character, had worn) something that told the story in simple visual terms, without getting too deep in. I think that, if I had plans to include the helmet atall in my story, i would have made it an heirloom, passed down to the cheiftain from a time before the orcs of mordor came to moria, then adopted by them - like the english language and customs by the norman conquerors - and largely neglected by azog, like hurin with the dragon helm, or simply worn by him with no appreciation or reverence for it's history or "religious" significance, only it's value as a famous old rallying point and, well, badass piece of equipment)

"Burzugashu" is a name I came up with in the course of writing my script for the webcomic, as I realized, for the balrog to feel like a real facet of moria-orc culture, he'd have to have a name they could call him (like gods or monsters in real, historical human mythology) rather than always being called something like "the dark one." I tried to construct the word as accurately as I could using tolkien's texts; "burz" is the root word for "dark" in the black speech (like "Lugburz" the Orcish name for the Dark Tower, or the last line of the ring poem "agh burzum-ishi krimpatul," "burzum" here meaning "darkness") "Gash" is "fire" and considering how few words of their language we have (from tolkien himself, rather than those who've tried to flesh out his languages) it seemed a convenient enough pair up for a creature referred to by others as "shadow and flame," I suppose literally it would be "the dark fire" (as per gandalf's famous words at the confrontation on the bridge)

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ElrondPeredhel In reply to TurnerMohan [2013-10-20 10:12:01 +0000 UTC]

Yeah there is a lot of life in those Orcs portraits. John Howe did a good job on some of them (while I don't like Shagrat and his Gorbad lacked personnality, his Ugluk was awesome with this "shark-look" and tiny eyes -the scar was a bit too much though-). You've probably seen them but if not, they are visible on Tolkien Gateway (I haven't found them anywhere else though).

Yeah the orcish language wasn't a bad idea, at least for the never-smiling-Azog they wanted to do.

I understand your dilemna between the visual bonus which the helmet could be and the added value of fan-fiction to make Tolkien's world even more coherent and deeper than it is already. I think your explanation worked well, and the helmet will gain a new value for Bolg after his father's death.

"Burzugashu"seems a good construction. Tolkien's languages are usually very complex and it's possible that even for the Orcs the language have some rules we can't know (there are still reviews presenting his notes on his different languages, I think it's called Parma Eldalamberon and people are still discovering things about his languages). I'm not really good in that I'm afraid, it's way too complex and not at all my study field. I'm glad enough to speak French and that I do well enough to speak and write Engish and Spanish in an understandable way, Sindarin will come after Italian, Arab and Portuguese.

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TurnerMohan In reply to ElrondPeredhel [2013-10-22 05:43:37 +0000 UTC]

I was familiar with those john howe orc portraits (though from his website, not the tolkien gateway) he did a few others in that same series which you may prefer to shagrat and gorbag (or atleast I do) lagduf www.john-howe.com/portfolio/ga… and Snaga www.john-howe.com/portfolio/ga… I particularly enjoy lagduf, he has that very classic "fairy tale goblin" look (basically a really ugly man with a huge pointed nose ears, and just generally "cartoony" proportions) that I try to be cautious not to loose entirely in my attempts to portray orcs as a more or less consistent species; i figure orcs are, like the myriad of dogs breeds, actually quite a bit more diverse a species than men (and I've always been a fan of that "caricature-of-kieth-richards" look for orcs, it fits their smallness, meanness, and as i mentioned before, this charicterization of them as essentially english "dregs of society" types)

I think john howe's shark-like ugluk (good comparison ) pretty perfectly captures what I imagine a black uruk's skin color to be (like the ashy tone of a gorilla or mature chimpanzee's face and hands) and his ugluk actually looks quite a bit like azog in AUJ, only a bit more "orcish" (and that little bit helps)

I'm glad you enjoy some of my attempted fan-elaborations (I'm usually very cautious of fan fiction, both my own and other people's) at some point I'll get around to drawing a few pages of that webcomic, or maybe I'll just post up some of the script first, I could probably use some tolkien fan feedback, it's hard to write orcs and go into depth with them in a way that feels real and convincing, but still orcish (not just like "misunderstood people," I hate when fanfic writers do that )

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ElrondPeredhel In reply to TurnerMohan [2013-10-28 11:33:53 +0000 UTC]

I found a quote about Orcs that will please you (I guess) from The Treason of Isengard :

" Swiftly they stripped the ore, peeling off his coat of black scale-like mail, unbuckling his sword, and unslinging the small round shield at his back. The black iron cap was too large for Sam (for orcs have large heads for their size), but he slipped on the mail. "

Actually I'm not very found of the "fairy tale goblin" look, fighting for years against my vision of ME not being PJ's and not Warhammer and D&D either. I like that your Orcs don't have that feeling too much (less than mine actually) cause for me the Orcs are more "serious" creatures than that, "The Uruk-hai" is a nightmare more than a fairy tale, the way I see it (there is a huge vocabulary of pain and unconfortness in this chapter and Grishnak's touchings does sound a little like a rape).
Still having a little bit of this feeling don't hurt and Grishnak was one of the Orcs I preffered in the movies and the closest of this archetype. But those John Howe's portraits are too funny and not disturbing enough for me.
But a "Keith-Richards-Orc" rocks ! (obviously )

I agree about Ugluk looking a little like the movie-Azog which doesn't disturb me : Uruks seems to be more human (logically) and more "awesome", "purer" also in the way that they have a more human morphology, etc...
Talking about movie-Azog : I just found out that Draugluin, the Werewolf-Lord, means "blue-wolf". Is it a pale-blue or a really black skin with blue shinings ? I don't know...

What you are describing about Orcs being represented as "misunderstood people" is exactly what I don't like about the "faity-tale-goblin" : Orcs are fierce and crual creatures, they are not dumb people.

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TurnerMohan In reply to ElrondPeredhel [2013-10-29 07:50:12 +0000 UTC]

tolkien was very interested in the evolution of epic sagas and monster stories intended for adult audiences into child friendly fairy tales, and often tried to reverse the process, as with changing the goblins in the hobbit into more serious versions of themselves in the form of orcs. I think, depending on how serious a version of middle earth you're looking at (the hobbit was subtantially less serious than lotr or the silm) a degree of classic fairy tale "goblinness" in the orcs is a benefit (movie-azog had none atall, which, as discussed above, i think was a mistake, and felt tonally wrong for what aught to be atleast a slightly more juvenile film)

Yes the horrendous physical invasiveness of the orcs' prodding fingers in "the uruk hai" definitely comes off a bit "rapey." I really liked how, in the book and especially the movie, the scene among the orcs had the feel (from merry and pippin's perspective) of a prison rape, with all these hardened lifers arguing over the young "fresh meat," only applied to the much more fairytale-like and charming - though no less scary - scenario of being eaten instead of raped. i think actual rape, or at best a sort of semi consentual, animal-like sexuality would have to figure pretty damn heavily in any elaborated presentation of orcish social behavior, i cant really see them engaging in elaborate courtships.

right you are about draugluin, that does appear to be what his name means. of the two available options i would lean more toward black fur with a midnight blue sheen (similar to how i always pictured dwalin's "blue beard")

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ElrondPeredhel In reply to TurnerMohan [2013-10-31 15:52:03 +0000 UTC]

Your demonstration on Orcs/Goblins and their different degrees of conciousness is convincing. In fact I realized after writing that what I wrote wasn't entirely true but I like to throw things at you and look at what you'll come up with.

On the rest, as always, nothing to add.

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TurnerMohan In reply to Felipenn [2013-10-19 01:06:34 +0000 UTC]

movie azog, the G.O.W. guy, and the engineer from prometheus all look like brothers (it's indicative of a creative dry spell in the entertainment industry when the same mediocre design shows up thrice in a short time span) I think in general jacksons orcs look a little too much like, well, kiwi stuntmen in prosthetics. I always pictured them as more differently proportioned from humans (shorter legs, longer arms, more stooped) though the moria orcs in fellowship were really great.

do you have your take on Azog up? I'd love to check it out. and I know what you mean, about the movies and how they can influence and change your personal vision (I feel like I'm only just now starting to recover some of my own vision of M-E, pre-lotr movies)

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TurnerMohan In reply to JackRover [2013-10-17 21:38:46 +0000 UTC]

Thanks, I' glad you like it! orc psychology and social behavior is a tough one to try and wrap your head around, mostly because, as many people have observed, they really dont have a "light" side to their nature to counter the dark side. for that reason i think a degree of falling back upon (the bad side of) human or animal psychology is nescesarry. that's partially what prompted my inspirations; I think that prison is one of the few remaining areas in human society where human social behavior very closely resembles what you see in alot of animal societies, where everyone is constantly trying to assert and hold on to their place in the pecking order (kind of an "I'm bad so dont fuck with me," attitude) effectively turning almost every social interaction among themselves into a series of aggressions and withdrawals. Azog, to me, is a classic alpha, like you'd see in any human or animal society: a big, aggressive, high-testosterone bully who everyone's afraid of, but who is also recognized as the chief protector and breadwinner for the "pack."

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Zeonista In reply to TurnerMohan [2013-10-23 21:48:03 +0000 UTC]

You were fairly on the money with the characterization of orcish society. It is something of the wolf-pack, where the biggest, boldest, and most clever/cunning male takes the alpha position, and rules the others with a hand of iron. (Jack London's brutally romantic view of wolf life applies here in spades.) Rewards and punishments are handed out at whim, to keep order and raise (or lower) subordinates. Still, an orc-lord's tenure depends on capability to be successful; physical weakness, battlefield defeats, and a lack of imagination might trigger a "coup". The Lords of the North who rule over the orc-kind of the Grey and Misty Mountains are in theory absolute despots. However, the extent of that rule in practice ultimately depends on the will of the orc-lord to whip his forces into shape, and then actively use them to force the lesser chieftains to accept his rule and obey when demanded. Azog and Bolg were noteworthy for their leadership ability, but there must have been many intervals of weak Lords of the North, when the individual tribes did what they wanted.

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