HOME | DD

TurnerMohan In reply to Zeonista [2014-07-11 00:05:02 +0000 UTC]

I picture turin as one of those guys for whom the beard is basically exploding out of his face from the nose down. for a long time i had pictured him as being bearded, and now i kind of like the idea of him (like most guys who don't work office jobs) alternating many times in the course of his adult life between having one and going clean shaven (i like artigas' suggestion of 17-20 year old turin sporting a beard in doriath; it's something elves cant do, and a subtle - but aggrivating to some, like saeros - way of showing his human pride in the face of all these incontestibly wise, superior elves, and i don't see that he'd have much reason to shave among the outlaws, but at the same time I love Ekukanova and Meneldil-elda's clean shaven depictions of turin, maybe that's during his stay in nargothrond, and who knows, maybe he sports a mustache and plaid clothes among the celtic haladin in brethil)

but enough about beards , it was mostly the look on his face and in his eyes that made me decide on turin, rather than aragorn, for this one; as you say he is indeed a prepetual plaything of fate, the curse morgoth laid upon him seeming to guide and dictate every wrong turn in his life. he knows it, and as tom shippey mentions, he seems to take the name "master of doom" in defiance of what he knows to be the apparent truth about his life (a truth and a fate that inevitably catches up with him, and is even acknowledged on his headstone) the fatalism of turin's tale (and moreover the fact that he knows it, and rebels against it) is for me what makes his story the best of the three "elf friend" stories from the first age, and what i was trying to capture here. I think there's a natural atrraction with turin; seemingly everybody wants to fuck him (though he seems, for the most part, to be too messed up emotionally to really reciprocate, making him ug-gettable and therefore all the more alluring) and certainly his story is more popular among fans than tuor or beren, a fact even the tolkien estate seems to have acknowleged in releasing "the children of hurin". He's closely related in mind to my mental image of bruce wayne; this big strong, stoic, macho guy who's actually kind of a wreck and a hurt little boy on the inside, and it's no suprise that, like turin, people generally love batman a whole lot more than superman (who's just kind of boring, alot like tuor )

I lay out alot of how i feel about aragorn in relation to turin or beren in my response to libra1010 below. He's quite a bit more of a mature adult, i think, than his famous ancestors (being quite a bit older than any of them at the time of their great deeds) I always thought of aragorn as being somewhat like gregory peck crossed with charlton heston, the kind of guy who, while he seems like there's alot going on in his head that he doesnt talk to anyone about, is actually quite good at talking to people (something viggo never really pulled off, for me)

👍: 0 ⏩: 2

Libra1010 In reply to TurnerMohan [2015-01-03 17:12:41 +0000 UTC]

 If you're looking for a Heston-as-Aragorn image Master Mohan, I think you might find it in this one …

👍: 0 ⏩: 0

Zeonista In reply to TurnerMohan [2014-07-11 01:46:05 +0000 UTC]

Viggo Mortensen back in the Nineties could have played a moody-cool Turin and done the role justice. These days he is past it, and would have to play Barahir, although he is not decrepit enough for Sador.   I must admit that while I liked Viggo's Aragorn, touchy-feely script & all, my mental voice for Aragorn is more often than not John Hurt, who pretty much is the balance between Gregory Peck & Charlton Heston. 

👍: 0 ⏩: 0

TurnerMohan In reply to Artigas [2014-07-12 21:58:03 +0000 UTC]

actually i'd never heard of BWS, but seeing his work now i can see why you made the connection. I'll have to check out more of his stuff, he seems like he knows what he's doing with a pen and ink

unfortunately i cant really claim credit for that assesment of michelangelo's adam and eve, how they seem to contain all the germ of humanity within them, it was based on my (loose) memory of a quote from an art critic, but i found it very applicable to humanity in Tolkien's world in it's first few generations, and actually wanted to convey it in a less "classical" way than michelangelo does with adam and eve who, like almost all his figures, are swollen but still quite classical nudes in repose with largely hairless bodies. I think of the men of the first age in beleriand as being somewhat more primitive and brutal in physical appearance than that (and than later generations in middle-earth) which was what inspired the stubble. Turin, though strikingly handsome, is one of those guys who might be considered cave-mannish, with a beard just explode out of his face and a jaw and cheekbones that seem to be made out of stone (actually looking at him now he kind of reminds me of both mel gibson in Braveheart and nicholas cage in Conair, say what you will about the 90's, but they knew how to wig up an action star ) in general i see the men and women of the first age as having that look to them, not classical figures (that's more like the elves) but something more like that primitive, pre-classical frazetta aesthetic of sinew and raw emotion. for some reason alot of my getting to know a character or a race always comes back to doing figure studies; i had considered doing a nude of Haleth - with whom i seem to have an ongoing love affair - that would convey at once her femininity but also this worn, muscular harshness to her, like a female bonobo (caution; monkey porn ahead www.lolayabonobo.org/images/et… )

but turin, of course (like his mother) is regarded as posessing almost an elven beauty, and so I would think his appearance would balance that roughness with a certain gentility and a look of somber, mostly wordless intelligence, somewhat like arnold in Conan. I love your analogy to a lion or a tiger, as i think i've said elsewhere, I sort of regard turin as a similar character, emotionally and physically, to bruce wayne/batman, of whom I've done alot of very purposefully tiger-like portrait and figure studies, trying to capture that movement and intensity of theirs (it continues to amaze me how much we think alike)

i'll have to scope out that convo between you and Zeonista, you're two of my favorite people to hear opinions from, so I'm sure it'll be interesting.

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

Artigas In reply to TurnerMohan [2014-07-13 04:22:59 +0000 UTC]

Well if you did not know BWS it just amazes me more. Your art is always going I prefer art to be. He is an old school artist, very known because he draw Conan and Wolverine, for most of his career, and as he started very young he progressed A LOT on the course of the years. His first works were much inferior but already were powerful and original.

He have many “periods” and the one that reminds me of your new work is this one here: 37.media.tumblr.com/5f5750da97…

He uses a lot of different crosshatching techniques and also a dash o pointillism.

Your thoughts on Turin and the first men are really inspiring, I love your analogy of Bones of Stone Indeed I can see what you mean.

Woah! I didn't see that one coming! Monkey teats huh Ambiguous feelings here hahahah.

Very cool, I got your intent but I sorta didn't figure out how it will be applied to Haleth's concept. I'll sit and wait patiently to see it done for good. For now it seems like another powerful and bold idea is gaining form. Keep it this way bro.

This improbable connection between Batman and Turin is just disturbingly perfect! Good point, cleverly observed. I think it fits like a glove. Maybe that's why I always felt like I already knew Turin before. Both are gloomy murderous paranoids, they have serious issues but a good nature, but they are also pressure vessels that explode unbelievable fast and in a very disproportional fashion. I can understand the guys. I think this uncontrollable nature makes them more human.

For the feline mojo, I tried capturing this latent power a number of times, with no success. The power and majesty are unquestionable and obvious to perceive, but it is so impossible to identify where it comes from. It is certainly subtle and I have my doubts as if it is possible to harness and use with human anatomy. Anyways, if you ever discover the trick, remember to have a chat with me about it.

Me too, I am repeatedly amazed by how we think alike, our styles are very similar and there are some drawings that even I would have difficult identifying the author We have a very rare and singular way to perceive and create Fantasy art, and I feel really lucky and happy to know such a brother in art. What we have here is very precious to me, and is helping a huge lot to improve my art. Needless to say I am having a really good time too. You are a very nice dude mr Turner.

Well, I have some sketches that might interest you, I'll post them today.

For now, I'll let you with a selection of some of BWS best works to get you pumped up:

linesandcolors.com/images/2006…

3.bp.blogspot.com/-900EJqyr0sE…

38.media.tumblr.com/caf06d7631…

cdn.comicartfans.com/Images/Ca…

3.bp.blogspot.com/-DHC5fZieEPM…

38.media.tumblr.com/29bd73f83e…

2.bp.blogspot.com/_zD76GyK9Tjo…

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

TurnerMohan In reply to Artigas [2014-07-19 17:42:26 +0000 UTC]

I think among the human heroes of the first age, fans generally like turin the best for similar reasons to why batman (or wolverine for that matter) are such enduringly popular comics heroes; he has pathos, he's intense, he's tragic, and, despite his time with the elves and there being a dragon involved, like batman, his story seems more human than tuor's or beren's (I like the lay of leithien mostly because i think it's ultimately luthien's story more than beren's, like jack and rose in "Titanic." tuor's story always kind of bored and frustrated me) it's "harder" more gritty, more tragic, and ends in his suicide, like a greek play, rather than in some special fairy-tale deal with the gods (again, WTF about tuor getting to live forever?)

the only tips I could offer for bringing some of that big cat mojo into a human figure (I've had what i'd call some humble success in the endeavor, some examples of which I'll try and put up in my scrapbook, though i'm sure the endeavor is not unfamilar to you, and I'm sure alot of my advice will be familiar territory) is that it lives mostly in the forward-thrust angle of the neck, the eyes, the muzzle and the nose; tigers and lions always appear to be staring at you from beneath their eyebrows, with their pupils right up below the brow ridge, which coupled with those huge cheekbones of theirs and the brightness of their eyes gives them that cold but intense gaze (i tried to invest some of that in Feanor ) I think also a very prominent chin and jaw structure but a relatively terse upper lip, giving the figure that look of being perpetually dried up into a clint eastwood scowl. frank miller's design for marv s3.amazonaws.com/rapgenius/fra… , with that unforgetable profile (that i think took him a few attempts to really pin down) is among the best ever attempts, in my opinion, to invest a human figure with some of that power and purpose, and it's influenced alot of the way i'll try and draw "intense" faces; definitely my attempts at batman (Mr. Wayne  and Black and Terrible 2 ) Gothmog and even my take on Fingolfin  all owe a partial debt.

those BWS peices are terrific, thank you for sharing them.

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

Artigas In reply to TurnerMohan [2014-08-01 17:06:23 +0000 UTC]

I like the way you think here. The way you compare the heroes and stories, it is just great. You really have a very deep understanding of things and is very skilled in helping others see what you see.

About the cats: Thanks again, I am resuming my studies in big cats with your tips in mind, and it already started to pay off. Specially about the eyes and facial structure. In fact the stare itself plays a big part in the overall effect. The next thing I'll try to solve is the unique way they move and for that matter, the way they just stand still. Fascinating beasts, we have a lot to learn from studying them.

You really managed to convey the effect on those drawings, I was able to perceive the power in the images but before you pointed it out I did not make the connection. Congratulations again, as always it amazes me the depth of concept and study behind each one of your pieces. Your art is becoming increasingly inspiring and fascinating to me.

👍: 0 ⏩: 0

TurnerMohan In reply to ElrondPeredhel [2014-07-10 13:23:47 +0000 UTC]

well, what can i say... (besides that, ya know, this one doesnt really look anything like me )

i try

👍: 0 ⏩: 0

TurnerMohan In reply to sathewins [2014-07-10 03:12:01 +0000 UTC]

thank you, i've been trying to step up my output in that department!

👍: 0 ⏩: 0

TurnerMohan In reply to Libra1010 [2014-07-10 03:41:21 +0000 UTC]

thanks my friend. Turin is indeed a "fated" man, or perhaps, as tolkien would have put it, a "doomed" man, and as the old adage (or at least the popular misquote of the real old adage ) goes; 'he whom the gods would destroy they first elevate.' certainly there is a god who has it out for turin, and it always seemed to me that perhaps the man's greatness, through metaphysics incomprehensible to man, was in part ordained by morgoth, so as to make his fall all the more awful. tom shippey touches on this, briefly but brilliantly, in "author of the century," inwhich he touches on how, at every stage of his life, turin, seems to hear just the right words, be spared from death, or be put in just the right place, that culminate, elaborately, in his suicide. it is as if, in a sense, morgoth is "saving" him for his eventual doom, and that god-driven fate of turin always stood out to me in these subtle but notable, greek-hero like moments in turin's life (it is said in nargothrond that turin could not be killed except for by a stray arrow, and perhaps it would have been better, ultimately, if he had died in battle, and the scene where he kills a member of forweg's band with a pebble always seemed to me like something you'd see from bread pitt's achilles; a move only able to be pulled off, almost as if by magic, by a god-ordained tragic hero)

aragorn, indeed, I would probably imagine to be less, well... potent. he's older by decades than his great, ill fated ancestor ever lived to be; wiser, more collected, more reflective, and having learned alot from life that turin, sadly, never got to. i think I'd ideally make him a little leaner, more ascetic, less iron-jawed, less a man to shoot first and ask questions later, and (something i don't think turin could ever really pull off) someone who could be a good leader and even father figure.

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

Libra1010 In reply to TurnerMohan [2014-07-10 10:58:26 +0000 UTC]

 In all seriousness it has occurred to me (repeatedly) that Aragorn, son of Arathorn should wear a face that would be out of place neither in The Court of Pharaoh or the encampment of a Vardo wagon train (one should also note that I would not be very keen to see the old Rankin-Bass cartoons if it weren't for the fact that I rather desperately want to hear Mr John Hurt voice Aragorn, for I suspect that he'd be perfect for the role!).

 On another note, I'm rather embarrassed to say that it only struck me last night that relative to Turin, old Strider is definitely Odysseus compared to Achilles; embarrassingly enough it was only after thinking up that comparison that it really hit me that Turin is definitely a Hero in the spirit of Achilles - it's hard not to read his self-defeating pride and taste for battle as a desperation to hold onto his Honour and that of his Family (and further add to it) born from the keen awareness that as the Curse of Morgoth hangs over him his life will be short, so he had better make the most of it (hence courage honed to such an edge of desperation that he's willing to execute a frontal assault on a DRAGON).

 That Aragorn DOES rather resemble Odysseus in coming through battles and wanderings fit to weary a multitude to his Beloved and a Home that he might rejoice in DOES rather strengthen my confidence in this series of comparisons.  

 

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

TurnerMohan In reply to Libra1010 [2014-07-10 13:47:41 +0000 UTC]

turin to me is middle-earth's greatest all-purpose hero, borrowing freely from (or rather inspiring, thousands of years down the line, as seems to have been tolkien's intent) so many of the classic hero tales we are familiar with from ancient mythology; he is a dragon slayer like Sigurd and Beowulf (and uses sigurd's method) kills himself like Oediphus (and for similar reasons) plays both the role of Telemachus (as a child facing the encroachment of the easterlings in the absence of his father and all the men of their country) and later Oddysseus (returning to slaughter the easterlings in retaliation for the rape of his land and kin) along with many other sources (like the hero of the finnish Kalavala) with which I'm less familiar. It's like tolkien took these archetypes and imagines them all as taking place in a consistent world, embodied in a single man, and, ofcouse, that man is cursed by the gods, but like maedhros (for whom a substantial connection to the torment of prometheus can be made; angered the gods, chained to a rock, an eagle was somehow involved) it's not zeus or poseidan (as with oddyseus) who is cursing them in middle-earth, but morgoth, the "dark god."

I see aragorn as a self-aware descendent of men like beren, hurin, turin, tuor, and earendil, very well aware of his (really kind of all-important) lineage, but more a modern man (like the hobbits) than an all-out archaic hero. that's what makes him able to relate to the hobbits (and makes their relating some of the most enjoyable parts of LOTR) as well as the more archaic men of rohan, really much more so than his ancestors or even (relative) contemporaries like thorin or boromir, he is not proud, or atleast not in that classic, loud, hero way that blinds people. He's a patient man and a talker, when the situation can be resolved by talk, not unlike gandalf (as frodo remarks)

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

Libra1010 In reply to TurnerMohan [2014-07-11 11:15:03 +0000 UTC]

 You really have hit the nail on the head, Master Mohan!

 It actually occurred to me yesterday that it's interesting to compare the likes of Turin and Aragorn with their great literary contemporary Conan of Cimmeria (some strange scruple of conscience forbids me to refer to the latter as 'Conan the Barbarian' given that whatever else he may be accused of - and his rap sheet would doubtless give Robin Hood an incredible inferiority complex - he's generally able to speak whatever the local language happens to be sooner rather than later).

 I've been known to muse on characterisation a bit, especially for the purposes of comparison mostly because I find it amusing to contemplate how these characters would interact when they bump into one another in that great Green Room/Valhalla for fictional adventurers that anyone with a passing acquaintance with Fantasy knows MUST take the shape of a Tavern; when you get down to it, I suppose my definition of the difference between the likes of Conan and Turin is that the Cimmerian has no real PURPOSE in life.

 He has goals, has natural inclinations, he has whims but he doesn't really have - nor does he take much interest in finding - a cause worthy of his powers to focus on (unlike Turin and still less like Aragorn); perhaps this is why Conan is so much more cheerful than Turin (who struggles on but remains all too aware of the hopelessness of his quest) and so much more unpredictable than Aragorn (absent any immediate or impending crisis, Conan gets BORED).

I have come to suspect that the Curse of Conan is that he was born with a frightening brilliance into a place which offered him no real outlet for that star quality and a temperament which prevented him from ever accepting or being accepted in those places where he might have done just that (something to note; Conan could no more rest easy and at peace with himself in Cimmeria than he could in the Palaces of Aquilonia - he's just too much of an iconoclast and an individualist!).

 I'll close by saying that I suspect that if Aragorn and Conan met, they'd probably be able to drink companionably (with some colourful anecdotes and a careful eye on the other fellow's weaponry), but that I suspect Conan and Turin would win up killing one another sooner or later!

👍: 0 ⏩: 0