HOME | DD

#caranthir #feanor #tolkien #haleth #beleriand #silmarillion #haladin
Published: 2015-01-03 09:59:13 +0000 UTC; Views: 29710; Favourites: 273; Downloads: 161
Redirect to original
Description
The history of relations between Men and the Eldar was possibly the subject within his own writing closest to Tolkien's heart, and often enough, especially in the most famous cases, it is the relationship between genders. Invariably, in every man/elf pairing, the man is, well, a manThese two were a lot of fun to paint, as both are long-time favorites of mine from the 'Silm.' I'm quite proud of Caranthir's "korinthian spangenhelm," I imagine this is one of the "tall helms with plumes or red" wrought by Feanor. His overall silhouette I wanted to feel like a cross between ancient nordic styles with a classical greek elegance of form. Haleth's swirling blue warpaint (or possibly tattoos) was of course inspired by the ancient celts, but the high "eyebrows" they culminate in was actually inspired by those sported by the fearsome Lady Kaede in Kurosawa's "Ran," and the way they wrap around her wrists came from how Athena is often represented holding snakes in both hands (I imagine they might end in little serpent heads). She's a warrior by nature, one of these inherently mighty specimens humanity produced a lot of in its earliest generations, I wanted to depict her topless not so much to sexualize her (although as I mention above sexual tension is an important part of the piece) but on the thought that, like the real life ancient celts, the haladin warriors might, by custom, fight stripped to the waist (or possibly even completely nude) and as their new leader Haleth opts to go bare-chested into battle as well. I loved the image it provided, not only for the tension between her and the elven lord, but providing this vision of her as this timeless, archetypal heroine-savior figure, like Delacroix's "Liberty leading the people", Joan of Arc, Boudicca, Elizabeth Tudor or the goddess Athena (or more recently Jennifer Lawrence
Related content
Comments: 83
TurnerMohan In reply to ??? [2022-09-05 12:19:43 +0000 UTC]
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Lukkijurpo In reply to TurnerMohan [2022-09-06 00:14:14 +0000 UTC]
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
Izvin [2020-11-18 10:46:04 +0000 UTC]
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
CaptainofVingilot [2018-08-21 15:04:24 +0000 UTC]
Intriguing, very intriguing - though I'd have thought that Haleth would at least have a little leather armour. I say this not out of prudishness, but puzzlement, since if memory serves, her people aren't totally primitive and were besieged. And during a siege, not wearing at least chest armour is like saying 'here are my vital organs, please shoot them'. Even if the rest of her people fought semi-naked, she probably wouldn't.
👍: 1 ⏩: 0
5ilvara [2016-07-20 01:24:09 +0000 UTC]
Nice. This analysis seems complete enough to be used as a reference in my future discussions and debates regarding fantasy. Thank you very much for providing that! ^^
I find your theory 90% verified, BTW, especially since almost 99% of all manner of fantasy books I find feature a romance according to what you said.
Though, at :
"It is the only time (at least in the Silmarillion) that we get to hear about the meeting of a male elf and a human female,"
Didn't you forgot About Aegnor and Andreth?
Also, I *could* have sit quietly and simply enjoyed the nice description, but it seems that it proves to simply be an impossible feat to me... Soooo, regarding:
"they're bad boys, and time and time again the Luthiers and Idrils and Finduilas's go for it; they respond to their human immediacy and their ability to act and live in the moment and work with this short life-cycle and curious fate they've been given, leaving the cooler, more reserved Daerons and Gwindors and Maeglins of the world eternally friend-zoned. these are all classically, primal-ly attractive male traits"
I'll just say that this is a definitive generalization and remind you that all women are not the same. Even if what you have depicted seems, quite embarrassingly, to correspond to the majority, many women remain who know what they want and how to get it precisely enough
-> not to have to burn their bra, put their hair in flames and run to embrace naked insanity
(Er... Okay, I just wanted to write the last part somewhere online. Achieved. Now back the make sense of this sentence I'm trying to build: )
-> not to have to give their lives away to first stud so he can consume down to the ground.
(Er, sorry. Did it again. I just can't resist the fun image what you wrote gave me.)
Well, you get the idea. ^^
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
TurnerMohan In reply to 5ilvara [2016-07-29 19:02:18 +0000 UTC]
Glad you find my opinions overall sound. As to your first question i think the operative words would be "in the silmarillion" as andreth and her relationship with the elven prince are given no mention in the silmarillion as printed. Like the much briefer and less romantic "relationship" between haleth and caranthir, aegnor and andreth are in a way this failed forerunner to beren and Luthien, and it's strange that Finrod, who is otherwise decidedly liberal and openminded, and even dies helping beren secure the dowery for an interspiecial union, is so against it. It is, as many fans percieve it, his one dick move, standing in the way of love. Might his aid to the love between beren and luthien be interpereted as, in adition to a fulfilment of his oath, a quest for personal redemption of sorts? The fanfic wheels start turning...
on the second point (which i understand as you taking issue with my description of the immediacy and brashness of humanity compared to the eldar as being solely male traits) i do go on, in the next sentence, to say that that is all true of human women as well. Haleth, morwen, nienor and, many many centuries later, eoywn, are all self-willed women-of-action, i think many human women are in middle earth, my point is that when they are it seems to put them at odds with the typical gender roles seen in traditional fairy tale romances.
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
grisador [2016-04-30 21:16:08 +0000 UTC]
Elven looks to Barbarian woman in An odd Kind of way >:]
Great work
👍: 1 ⏩: 1
Jakegothicsnake In reply to grisador [2022-09-02 07:54:50 +0000 UTC]
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
deevii [2015-04-11 02:31:09 +0000 UTC]
What I absolutely love about this is that it conveys a lot of things at once:
- incredible juxtaposition: Haleth is clearly ragged, exhausted, tired and dirty but appears the calmer of the two (even just because of a combination of exhaustion/wonder at the awesome elf lord or she's basically too tired to move); Caranthir is literally on his high horse, clean even after a skirmish, expensive looking and lordly but clearly the more unsure and jittery of the two: the move of his helmet-hair and cloak, his head leaning forward convey movement and uncertainty.
- Also Haleth: half naked but still and unashamed/Caranthir:fully dressed in finery but uneasy. Brilliant.
- In my mind,I can see the mindf**k going through Caranthir's mind: "What do I do with this: do I admire it? talk to it? F**k it? Capture it? Walk away from it?" I can almost sense him smelling her human smell and his body/mind trying to apply the right reaction to it. With your depiction of their meeting, Haleth's walking away from his offer makes more sense: she does not trust him as she senses his thought-currents and does not trust them entirely; she is not sure of this gorgeous creature's motives. Again brilliant.
- Love the tatts on Haleth, they scream "wild and unconquered". Love the ratty hair again in awesome contrast with Caranthir's elegant plume. The red plume on "dark" Caranthir is a great nod to Feanorian fire.
I love it even though I love my elves more Manga-like and otherworldly (daLomacci's Caranthir is my favourite) and I only ever pictured hidden tatts on poor Eol. Great work, I actually love being awed by a work of art that doesn't quite agree with my visual headcanon but there are enough layers of meaning here for a whole elf-feast! Awesome work!!!
👍: 1 ⏩: 1
TurnerMohan In reply to deevii [2015-04-21 04:15:26 +0000 UTC]
thank you my friend, this is the kind of comment i love getting, long and well considered. you've gotten everything i'd hoped to convey between the characters perfectly; the contrast between the two, haleth's calmness and seeming superior authority despite the great power and splendor of the elven lord, caranthir's imposing but skittish and uncertain presence (i often picture the sons of feanor as up on these big muscular warhorses, it gives them this edge of lordliness and predatory sexual aggression that fits them well at several points) and yeah I'd hoped to make a scene that, without any words (though i guess i've given it many ) would make sense of haleth's decision to move on to brethil.
i'm not a big anime/manga fan, particularly as applied to tolkien's elves; the uniformally small cute features and big eyes of the manga aesthetic just doesnt sit well with my imaginings of the great warriors and kings of the noldor as these intense, sculpted nordic god-types (though i havent seen daLomacci's caranthir and so shouldn't judge, can you give me a link?)
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
deevii In reply to TurnerMohan [2015-04-23 09:00:12 +0000 UTC]
You are very welcome! Sons of Feanor looks amazing already, totally getting the "predatorial" aspect of Feanorians on horseback.
Oh but that's the amazing thing with Tolkien's world isn't it, you see nordic god-types, I see manga-like, otherworldly, almost girl-pretty Elf lords, neither of us is right or wrong, although I bet money JRRT would have found your style more to his tastes! Nothing wrong with nordic god types anyway My headcanon probably reflects my love of cartoon comics. Your style is more Alan Lee/John Howe than, say, Gerwell (I actually love both styles), what is amazing about yours is how one picture tells a whole story, that's rare (and awesome) and you can make the sort of art where the more you look at it the more layers of meaning you unveil and that draws me in in a big way. I love your Eol/Aredhel too for the same reason.
Here's daLomacci's Caranthir , (for academic purposes )
👍: 1 ⏩: 0
ebe-kastein [2015-03-25 15:14:42 +0000 UTC]
Thank you for your art piece, and even more for starting this fascinating discussion on the obvious lack of gender balance in Tolkien's cross-racial series of marriages, where we keep seeing the grotty, short-lived human males successfully stealing the hearts of immortal elven maidens, while no human woman ever seems to be quite 'good enough' to truly and properly win the love of an ellon.
Since my net time is so limited, I must keep my comment short, but coming across your work and the related comments was an exquisit find!
BTW, I have been planning to depict Haleth myself. I have had the idea for a long while, but the queue of art commissions that need to be finished has held me back in a (usually very pleasant) way.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
TurnerMohan In reply to ebe-kastein [2015-03-26 04:18:24 +0000 UTC]
yeah commissions'll do that
I think it's more than just the male elven princes being "too good" for those raggedy human women (although alot of them are kind of snotty like that) with the stories of the "elf friends," beren, turin and tuor, it's that classic "adventurer story" (or as it's called today the "white male savior" story) we see this trope all the time - avatar, the last samurai, fern gully, pocahontas, dances with wolves, titanic, the karate kid ect - and it's almost always the same note for note; the human male wanderer/adventurer/soldier happens in upon a hidden world previously unknown to his own people, almost always goes straight for the king's daughter because he's just got moxie like that, incurs the jealous wrath of her bethrothed/kinsmen/suitor(s) from among her own kind (or creepy cousins/attempted kidnappers in the case of maeglin or celegorm) overcomes all obstacles and jock love wins the day (sometimes)
I call it the adventurer story because it seems like it's sort of the natural, sexual extension of any story about some bold man wandering into unknown lands and meeting with strange people, that he, like any hot blooded, adventurous man, is gonna go straight for the hot foreign/fairie/alien girl, and that she in turn responds to his courage and sense of adventure and all that. it's a case of very classic gender roles, and it doesn't (or atleast hasnt, in the history of drama) usually worked the other way; that some pampered prince falls in love with a bold, hardened woman (though there are instances of it here and there of course; saturninus and tamora from titus andronicus comes to mind, as do jiro and lady kaede from kurosawa's ran, though in both cases the woman doesnt love the man and is just using him to get revenge on someone else ) funny because tolkien (being the so often almost conspicuously asexual writer that he was) gave us several iterations of the "adventurer (or elf friend, in his world) story" that doesnt have any sexual end to it (beor spends forty years or something in nargothrond, bilbo in his own way fits the bill as an adventurer who ends up living out his last years as a guest and close student of the elves, and tolkien's whole fantasy opus was, at one point, to be told from the perspective of eriol the anglosaxon who stays with the elves on tol erresea, all without a sexual dimension) and he even played around with one possible male-elf-female-human romance in the story of andreth and aegnor (though finrod kind of shuts that one down, in surprisingly prudish fashion considering he is otherwise mr. open-minded, and infact dies trying to help secure beren's dowry for luthien, wtf finrod) but there's no denying it; the human/elf stories tolkien seemed to care about the most were all man-on-elf.
that said, tolkien (as I've remarked many times before in other comments) actually had a somewhat surprising "girl power" leaning for a guy who probably had (especially by today's standards) some pretty conservative ideas about gender roles. luthien - no doubt his dearest elf maiden - basically does everything in the "lay of leithian" and, like titanic, it seems by the end (or always did to me atleast) that she's actually more the lead character of the lay than beren is. but still it's all pretty damn heteronormative; all these "great women," despite their "greatness" and natural spunk, do tend to settle down and marry, and from then on basically do nothing but have children (it's especially jarring in the case of eowyn) in that regard halteh stands alone, and it does feel, subtly, that her prepetual single status is something tolkien holds against her to a degree ("proud" is often the word he uses when describing her and her actions, some of which lead her people to misfortune, and it always seemed to me that one of the things she was too "proud" for was settling down and having children). I dunno it is what it is, and the fact that her "biographer's" (or rather, inventor's) account of her life and rule comes off a little chauvinist and condescending at times actually adds to her sense of reality as an ancient female ruler, for me (because god knows every single real life historic female ruler has had to endure similar criticisms from historians)
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
ebe-kastein In reply to TurnerMohan [2015-03-26 13:38:57 +0000 UTC]
Thank you very much for your thoughtful and thorough reply! It is a trait of yours I instantly came to love when I happened to come across your gallery (which was yesterday). It's also a treat -- mind-candy for me. I so thoroughly enjoyed reading your comments that I *had* to re-visit your place here today as well! That's a luxury I cannot have every day, though, since I don't have a net connection at home.
Your reflections on the rules of a typical adventure story that we as a race have grown used to during the last millennia (an adventurous young man 'going straight for the king's daughter' -- had to laugh, as you nailed it perfectly) make perfect sense. Indeed, it's more than some conscious choice in gender conflict, where only *he* must get to choose whatever / whom ever he desires. Considering the lack of balance I mentioned before, I believe Tolkien had become so thoroughly soaked in the pattern you pinpointed that I'm quite sure he noticed it less than we notice the air that surrounds us. It's not something I want him whipped for; after all, he did come up with a world we all enjoy.
But still, in that regard he did not manage to rise above the thought patterns of his time, and I can't help wishing that he had been broadminded enough to do so. I understand the fact that he was a Victorian man, after all, and princesses / females in general were expected to wait for a night in shining armour, rather than be the tough creatures who might rescue an overwhelmed (elven) princeling in distress. Well, Eowyn theoretically had a potential for that, but to be honest, I groaned and almost threw the book to the corner after reaching the scene, where Tolkien made her *kneel*before Aragorn and beg a favour from him! He managed to spoil it for me quite a bit...
I don't want to be unfair, though. Yes, he did come up with some wonderful females despite what must have been crammed into his head ever since his childhood. Luthien and a few others really represent the moments of surprising 'girl power' in his fictions, just as you said. But then he stumbles again on the conventions of his time, exactly as you pointed out (the firm rule that a woman *must* marry, procreate etc).
Heavens, I keep agreeing with you on everything, but apparently I can't help it! Forcing Eowyn of all people to become a docile little wife disappointed me sorely, even though her husband was my favourite male character in the Ring trilogy -- way more so than Aragorn, who never stopped yammering about his ancestors (just how many times did that man utter the words: 'I'm Aragorn, son of Arathorn', as if a person's lineage could actually shape him?!). Still, I could have accepted Eowyn's choice, if it had only been presented somewhat differently, with more dignity.
And I'd better correct myself about something I first gushed out, when I came upon your lovely work here. I said I had been planning depicting Haleth for ages, while it was actually Andreth I meant. Forgive me! I have a horrid memory for names. Of course, Haleth deserves every artists' attention as well, but it was the tale of Andreth / Aegnor that I still mean to illustrate first -- possibly because Finrod's (hopefully I'm correct now?) infuriating dialogue with her that made me want to shout at him for the way he defended Aegnor's decision to leave her. It was the *one* time when the rigid roles ('man-on-elf', as you aptly put it) were almost broken, and I personally happen to believe that love should bloody conquer everything, including a sense of duty at times... *sigh* See, how all the rules were at least initially broken in case of Luthien / Beren, where the princess whistled on the custom of marrying someone roughly matching her own rank, fully disobeyed his father and just did what she saw fit for her love!
Speaking of Luthien, I wholeheartedly agree with on The Lay of Laithian. It's not only because I like to see a sassy girl in action, but yes, Luthien clearly achieved more than Beren. Without her bravery and personal power he would have died a heroic but fruitless death. Had to laugh, when I saw your 'Titanic' comment. It suited perfectly!
You definitely have a point in saying that the word 'proud', at least when describing women, seems to be a rather negative trait in Tolkien's view. At least it seems to bode ill for all of them. Remember Morwen, one of my favourites? In her case that word is repeated the most often, and naturally she finds a horrible, miserable end (she wasn't timid and passive enough to stay under Melian's protection). It probably has a lot to do with Tolkien being a Catholic, and pride being one of the seven mortal sins, if memory serves.
But despite Tolkien being often stuck in the ways of the time period he was born into, he occasionally tried rebelling a bit against it, just to be shamed by his own friends. Once he wrote a poem of Aman, where the elves dance naked, and naturally he was forced to correct such an awful mistake.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
TurnerMohan In reply to ebe-kastein [2015-04-06 05:40:12 +0000 UTC]
tolkien was definitely a man of his time, and i would go a step farther and say that his literary interests and preferences as a storyteller were very antiquated even by the standards of the time he lived in, that's why I cant ever really hold it against him - however frustrating some of his narrative choices may be sometimes - that his work falls into these timeless tropes; i think it's part of what gives his fictional world the resonance and "ancientness" it possesses, it would seem somehow fake (to me atleast) or pandering to contemporary sensibilities if he'd written his female characters the way, say, daenerys from game of thrones or elsa from frozen have been presented (to say nothing of the cringe-inducing image makeover maleficent was given) and while it's true that in middle-earth "good women" usually get married, pride is a point of criticism, and people do tend to suffer under female rulers, i feel that tolkien has given us alot of strong female characters, just presented through this sometimes offputtingly old-fashioned lens.
gender relations/sexuality in tolkien's world is a subject of great interest to me (all the moreso for how buried beneath his, often seeming, natural prudishness it is) it's a thing I talk about alot in comments and descriptions of various pieces of mine. it sounds like a subject of interest to you as well, in which case you might be interested in checking out Haleth and guardswomen Trapped in Nan Elmoth Aerin and this Sketch for a silmarillion cover concept.
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
TurnerMohan In reply to Saeleth [2015-02-10 05:09:36 +0000 UTC]
thank you my friend! glad you like it.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
TurnerMohan In reply to MuttMix [2015-02-10 05:10:17 +0000 UTC]
thanks, and nice thumbnail pic (always liked that book)
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
Artigas [2015-01-08 03:21:49 +0000 UTC]
I like the way your watercolors are slightly different than the usual here. The unfinished quality really added to the painting, and the texture is richer than the usual.
I like it a little crude and bold, the character is just overwhelming.
Also this is a bold composition in many ways but you managed to make it work.
Yeah Tattoos. So you thought about it better huh
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
TurnerMohan In reply to Artigas [2015-01-08 04:06:03 +0000 UTC]
well i still have my reservations about tattoos as applied to turin or any man of the edain born at his time, having had so much cultural exposure to the certainly not self-marking noldor by that point (plus he mostly grew up in doriath, so unless he got them when he was really little or just did them himself, though turin doesnt seem like the artistic type ) but haleth's alot earlier than them; she was born at a time when men hadn't even run into elves yet (except the avari, who i kind of like the idea of them using tattoos, or some process of bodypaint unknown to man) plus the haladin especially were always a little backwoods and "misguided" (as the noldor, functioning as tolkien's mouthpiece at many points, might have called them) so marking up her body seemed right for her
thank you about the composition and the characterization, i was quite proud of those things myself, and i'm glad you like this rougher more bled out strategy in watercolor; i was going for more alan lee than john howe here in terms of technique, or atleast what i can assume to be their techniques by studying their work, and in john's case, that wonderful fantasy art workshop book he put out, in which he explains a bit of his process. alan lee's watercolors are actually a lot more simple than john's in terms of detail and color glazing, i remember hearing john remark on one of the LOTR extras that he draws just a little faster than alan, but i wouldn't be surprised if alan is the faster painter.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Artigas In reply to TurnerMohan [2015-01-08 16:08:48 +0000 UTC]
Well I think I should better surrender my argument so I guess I have this tattoo thing too overrated anyway.
Nice to see you are studying the master's techniques, I'll get myself some books when I'm down under for sure!
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
silamir [2015-01-07 04:56:40 +0000 UTC]
Awesome, I love her tattoo designs. The contrast between them and the composition is great.
There was an actual romance between an elf-lord and a human woman, but they never married, recounted in Morgoth's Ring. A tale I really want to read about.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
TurnerMohan In reply to silamir [2015-01-07 16:39:58 +0000 UTC]
yeah i remember it, one of finrod's brothers (i forget which one, one of the A's) and a woman of the haladin who's nme also escapes me.
thank you, i'm glad you like it. the tattoos were a stretch (i often think tattoos are overused these days in historical/fantasy fiction, having become so popular in our real world) but i'm glad i went for it, i think in haleth's case they paid off. glad to hear you agree
👍: 0 ⏩: 2
ElrondPeredhel In reply to TurnerMohan [2015-01-23 17:18:54 +0000 UTC]
That is Aegnor (Finrod's little brother) and Andreth (a woman of the House of Bëor). And you have no excuse to forget it since Ekukanova did this piece :
www.deviantart.com/art/Somethi…
I think this is her best art, both in composition and skills, but I may be wrong since Aegnor & Andreth is the lovestory I like the most in all Tolkien's work. I believe it is because it's the only one told from the point of view of the girl (and also the only noticeable one we are told of an Elf male and a Man female).
Edit : Oops that was allready corrected ! ^_^
👍: 1 ⏩: 1
TurnerMohan In reply to ElrondPeredhel [2015-01-23 18:15:18 +0000 UTC]
right you are, a beorian, my mistake to imagine tolkien would ever grant one of the haladin even the possibility of one of those much sought after human/elvish romances, they are lowly celts afterall, what was I thinking?
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
ElrondPeredhel In reply to TurnerMohan [2015-01-24 22:24:39 +0000 UTC]
I have recently questionned the anti-celtic prism we were both attributing to Tolkien.
Of course Tolkien said he had "a certain distaste" for celtic legends it is obvious that he used a lot of them : the Elves are inspired by the Irish Tuatha Dé Danann in many ways, the arthurian legend had an influence on his work (though he won't recognize it), a guy on Tolkiendil even found an extract of the Book of Lecan about the spear of Lug and the sword of Nuada/Nuadu that Tolkien openly copied when he speaks about Aeglos and Narsil in the Silmarillion.
Generally Tolkien just didn't like people to look after his sources cause he considered that, then, they won't value his work for itself. It is the "Beowulf syndrom" : Tolkien felt it was a real pity that so many scholars were looking at Beowulf as a scientific object, researching its sources, analyzing its language, and not reading it as the masterpiece it was for him. I believe Tolkien strongly identified to the anonymous author of Beowulf.
And I think it is interisting that Tolkien considered Beowulf, a text to which he dedicated years of research, the pinnacle of northern litterature, mostly "celtic in essence" (sources to come...). It is also worth noticing that Tolkien considered that the separation between German and Celtic culture was somehow "artificial" (anticipating on recent research apparently) !
I recently had all these questions after re-reading the Wandering of Hurin and watching the "Viking" serie with the awesome Gabriel Byrne, the second one reminding me of the first, and I realized something : the semi-democratic/semi-monarchic political system of the Halethrim takes more than a glimpse of the nordic system.
It is also interisting on that aspect that Tolkien changed his mind about the relation between the three houses. During some time the House of Bëor had a different language and the House of Marach and Haleth had a pretty similar one, then things changed and the House of Marach became more alike to the House of Bëor while the House of Haleth developed its own and separated language, finnaly Tolkien intended the House of Marach and Bëor to be one and the same before arriving in Beleriand except that the Bëorians mixed with the Halethrim (which explain the dark hair) and became a different branch.
Of course we can still imagine that was Tolkien being influenced by the nazis' craziness about the romans being a germanic people but I'm more inclined to believe that Tolkien never had an opinion as solid as we imagined (like : Bëorians=Alpins/Marachrim=Germans/Halethrim=Celts) and used different influences for all of them.
Now the Gwathuirim have an abvous link with the britons (rising stones, driven into the hills by the "romans" and "saxons" of ME, using a language similar to welsh, etc.) but I'm not sure that makes it for all their relatives. After all the closest thing we have to the Halethrim in the Third Age (living in the woods and vales, using axes, being close of nature, etc.) are the Beornings who have "hadorian roots".
Now that's food for thougts don't you think ?
👍: 1 ⏩: 2
TurnerMohan In reply to ElrondPeredhel [2015-01-24 23:47:29 +0000 UTC]
and yeah i hear you on "beowulf syndrome;" tolkien seem continuously defensive about seeing the literary work that he enjoyed (either his own or those things that inspired him like beowulf) analyzed by potentially irreverent critics, though honestly for my money taking it in it's historical context is really the only lense through which beowulf can be actually enjoyed or even tolerated (i think tolkien's probably one of the few people who ever lived to consider it a great work on it's literary or narrative merits; even as a life long lover of all things viking-related i have to say the illiad or the oddessy have got beowulf beat to shit as compelling human stories)
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
ElrondPeredhel In reply to TurnerMohan [2015-02-07 23:38:20 +0000 UTC]
I read the Illiad this summer and I was really surprised how "viking" it was to me. I mean, I associate greeks, romans and christianity, forgetting the greeks were pagan. That tale in the Bronze Age of petty disputes between Gods, crual heroes possessed by an antic furor, women treated like sh**, etc. I only read a version for middle-school before and I didn't remebered it that way. I was chocked by how Achilles treat Briseis (basically saying to Agamemnon "Alas if the bitch died in an accident we won't have fight eachother and proud MEN will stille be alive"). Even Hera whipping Artemis' cheek with her own bow seems so ungodly and alien to a modern reader.
But the best part, Achilles' dilemna and the sudden turn of fate that brings him to change his mind to fight and die ultimately, that still is remarkable.
The Hollywood version was really interisting (though I won't call it a good movie per se) since it's always interisting to see how modern studio will handle this almost immortal myth. The decision to make the Briseis-Achilles affair a lovestory or to make the gods disappear from the all story is remarkable in that regard.
Now I need to read Beowulf...
👍: 1 ⏩: 0
TurnerMohan In reply to ElrondPeredhel [2015-01-24 23:41:13 +0000 UTC]
yeah i definitely agree that such distinctions were not necessarily as grounded in tolkien's mind or work as they can be interpereted, indeed there's very little to the beorian people, at least of the first age, that seems italic in any distinct way; they're basically just a less rash, more "elvish" dark haired fantasy version of the ancient germanics. i don't even know how familiar tolkien ever was with the race theory of his day, and kind of doubt he ever took much professional interest in it (seeming to be more interested in the history and heritage of language and culture than bloodlines) it's the kind of connection that seems obvious and intentional to a person looking back in retrospect (and with the wikipedia-style skim through of historic trends of thought available to them) but i doubt tolkien was dictated, in his own mind, by the necessity to have, say, the haladin mirror the "alpine" type, they just seem to do so in many places. truth be told, though it is of great value to me in drawing his world to find those areas where tolkien's histories of peoples and cultures seem to be skirting the line of real historical ones, aesthetically i think tolkien's world (and especially depicting it visually, as is my primary concern with it these days) will always be a balancing act between wanting to invest a feel of legitimate, real-life-derived historiocity in his races and peoples, and keeping in mind that everything in his world has this strong nordic/anglo-saxon overlay to it, as it was a mythos designed for the english language and people (and also that tolkien himself, who created all this, was not some perfect, impartial observer but a man of his own tastes, interests, passions and foibles; there's really no reason, historical or otherwise, for example, that stated sexuality is as absent from middle earth as it is) a good example of this, i think, is the valar, who are, as far as i can tell, or as far as any visual hints that are dropped lead me to believe, all or mostly white (caucasian) when deigning to appear in the form of the "children," as seem to be basically all of the elves (that we hear about) this would, ideally, not be the case if middle-earth was - as a modern thinker like myself who loves tolkien's work but sometimes wishes it to be "bigger" than it is might hunger for - a body of mythos that could speak for all humanity and all human mythology, but alas arda as written is decidedly euro-centric and anglo-centric not only in the narrative lense through which we see it but in its very character, and ultimately, as would be the case if one were to try and depict the figures of norse mythology, i think the safest approach (in terms of making smething tolkien would likely approve of) is to take the least chances and stray the least distance from the overall northern/anglo look of maille and spangenhelms and white people and so on, tiresome and oppresive as that can sometimes become.
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
silamir In reply to TurnerMohan [2015-01-07 21:47:40 +0000 UTC]
Aegnor and Andreth...? I think? hehe
Me too. well I guess being warpaint instead may be a little more historically accurate, but either way it's great.
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
Zeonista [2015-01-03 23:30:47 +0000 UTC]
I enjoy you show the many ways of flensing a feline. It's an interesting take on this meeting that manages to be very different from any other picture I've seen regarding the scene. It is as good as any illustration on the divide between the Firstborn and the Aftercomers, and the gulf between the Eldar and the Edain when they first met. In this respect one gains a greater appreciation on what that meant for the Beorian and Hadorian houses in their advancement, and how the folk of Brethil came to resemble the later men of Middle-earth who remained aware of the Elves, but lived apart and were content. For myself, you are persuading me that Haleth and Celebrimbor were more alike in their personalities than not. They were both strong-willed leaders with a commitment to family and kin above all else, and not averse to risk if it meant attaining their goals, and not being in debt to anyone because of it. I have no doubt that Celebrimbor's offer was sincere, and that Haleth received it as such. Your illustration makes it seem that Caranthir liked and understood Haleth more than we are told, and that he respected and possibly admired her decision to lead the Haladin folk on their way under her own terms. How else could a son of Feanor respond to such a decision? I am not sure Finrod or Fingolfin or Maedhros could have handled the situation any better, although Finrod's ability to be condescending while being kind and understanding is hard to beat.
As for shipping, I would disparage any Caranthir/Haleth story or picture which was not overtly humorous in nature. Haleth (especially your Haleth) seems completely out of place in fine Elven gowns and Dwarven jewels on Caranthir's arm. It would have made both of them laugh a great deal at the image, which was patently absurd. (Making this idea of a union between Elf and Man seem non-absurd would have to wait a few generations of Men, while the Edain became more cultured and proved their worth as allies, and the Elves learned to accept the idea of Men as equal children of Iluvatar. ) Caranthir might be excused for having a brief vision of his own Hithlum or Dorthonion, filled with the homesteads of hearty, hard-working Men who would not be afraid of Orcs, and would stand in the line of battle with the resolution he had seen them display that day, and whose chiefs might give the sons of Feanor the firm allies they so badly needed. Haleth's pride might usually be cited as her reason for declining such an alliance, but in the direct aftermath of the siege and battle of her people's camp, doing more of the same with better weapons might not have been appealing, and she might have sensed Caranthir's disquiet spirit, even under his gleaming mail and other finery.
👍: 0 ⏩: 2
JeantineHobbit In reply to Zeonista [2015-01-04 23:24:24 +0000 UTC]
What I love about your depictions of Middle-earth and your descriptions of them is the fact that you show the world and its people evolving through the ages, instead of just being stuck in a perpetual medieval limbo. Also a lot of people can take some tips from your Haleth (Movie-Kili, Bella Swan, Éponine, etc.) Looking forward to your other Beren and Luthien! (And for the record I never read Twilight. I was just unfortunate enough to have the curiosity to try and watch the first film on TV. I never made that mistake again. Also I truly believe that vampire sparkles are actually exploding skin cells.)
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Zeonista In reply to JeantineHobbit [2015-01-05 00:24:00 +0000 UTC]
I think you got me instead of TurnerMohan, so he may have missed this comment. See if you can directly connect to him again, he will appreciate it! (I do agree in passing about vampire sparkles.)
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
JeantineHobbit In reply to Zeonista [2015-01-05 00:28:48 +0000 UTC]
Thanks for pointing that out, man!
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
TurnerMohan In reply to Zeonista [2015-01-04 18:22:41 +0000 UTC]
first note, having only seen other depictions of this scene since putting this up yesterday (and there are only about three or four that i'm aware of) i think the big difference (and it's one that i consider of high importance in my art when depicting the people and events in the silmarillion) is that they all look - from the armor and the general dress, hairstyles and overall "attitude" of the characters - like they take place in the same roughly late dark-age/early medieval world as the lord of the rings; that gentle alan lee-esque aesthetic where everybody looks like a slightly celt-ified version of those long-robed, mellow-faced religious icon off of medieval cathedral doors and such. that seems to be the default aesthetic, in many ways, for depicting scenes and characters in middle-earth, but precisely what's appealing to me about the heroic first age of middle-earth is just how rough and primitive humanity is (the elves too, in their own way, but especially humanity) they're only a handful of generations old as a species at this point, so i like to think, both in their dress (especially before exchanging culture with the noldor, which elevates them rapidly) and even in their physical appearance and character, they're some pretty rough-hewn, barbaric, almost caveman-ish specimines (i've got two separate pieces, a drawing and a painting, of beren and luthien together in the wings in which beren owes more than a small debt to josh brolin, with luck they'll bring to bear in images better than i can in words that primal attraction i discuss between the human male and the faeirie girl, rather than just making them look like movie-aragorn and arwen part one)
Yes i think think Haleth and caranthir find an honesty and almost a kindred spirit with eachother. Caranthir the dark seems like such a fuck-head throughout the 'silm,' contemptuous, violent and generally unpleasant. his big defining trait seems to be racism; he's said to be most like his father in temperament out of all his brothers, and like feanor he continualy comes off as proud of his "all-noldor" heritage and contemptuous of those he deems "lesser;" finarfin's children, thingol, the teleri, the sindar, eol (also like his father, one suspects that caranthir's racist jabs are perhaps motivated in part by insecurity in his own position; as a vanyar Indis, and by extension her grandchildren, may actually be said to possess some "seniority" over the feanorian line, and thingol, though a king of dark elves, was personally one of the original five to behold the light of the trees, and married an ainur of power and majesty surpassing the entire noldor royal family; atleast caranthir's never sexually violent about it like celegrorm and curufin who hate and have contempt for thingol and his people but are smitten by his daughter and want to marry her (or maybe just take turns raping her like chiron and demitrius in "titus andronicus;" the line line between lust and hatred, abduction and romance, is tread alarmingly often in ancient legends, as we see with eol and aredhel)) but when he meets the haladin, perhaps because they are SO far apart from him (and beneath him, by all appearances) he doesnt seem to feel the need to be a "loftier than thou" prick like he usually does. also, despite the vast gulf between them, Haleth seems like his kind of person; stern, brave, a bit of a loner (caranthir often seems like the only-partially-welcomed third wheel of the "brothers C," amrod and amras have their twin telepathy, and the two eldest take council with eachother). these humans are not the compliant puppets of the valar (or anyone else seemingly) that his father (who knew absolutely nothing about them) predicted they would be; they're tough and don't expect much from life, and their leader, while again falling well below what Caranthir could probably bring himself to call a peer in any way, is a bold, masterful creature and even kind of a babe. their relationship seems totally honest; he offers her aid and alliance and he means it, she takes that for what it is, sizing him up to be most likely true to any word he gives, she doesnt doubt his sincerity but she refuses because she's also proud and independent (and maybe on some level cant help but notice that he's gorgeous, and thinks it best she stays away from him), he takes that for what it is and the two part ways and never meet again (though i do like the idea of caranthir, as i mention in "haleth and guards" giving the lady of the haladin a sword of surpassing quality - being a feanorian work - which she takes to brethil) it's a respectful, short story of human/elvish relations, one which probably stayed with haleth until she died, and might have even opened a few internal doors for carnathir (perhaps when it comes time for the second kinslaying, though driven by the oath, he's got less of a hardon about the issue of dior being some half-human abomination than celegorm or curufin)
👍: 0 ⏩: 2
JeantineHobbit In reply to TurnerMohan [2015-01-05 00:31:08 +0000 UTC]
What I love about your depictions of Middle-earth and your descriptions of them is the fact that you show the world and its people evolving through the ages, instead of just being stuck in a perpetual medieval limbo. Also a lot of people can take some tips from your Haleth (Movie-Kili, Bella Swan, Éponine, etc.) Looking forward to your other Beren and Luthien! (And for the record I never read Twilight. I was just unfortunate enough to have the curiosity to try and watch the first film on TV. I never made that mistake again. Also I truly believe that vampire sparkles are actually exploding skin cells).
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
Zeonista In reply to TurnerMohan [2015-01-05 00:02:27 +0000 UTC]
Caranthir on his best day (and it was) would be difficult to beat as a male "of interest", even for a tough gal like Haleth. It would be kind of like the reverse appeal of the Outlander series or the Last of the Mohicans movie for suburban soccer moms. However, I continue to suspect Haleth put aside husband and family as a personal sacrifice for being the leader of her people...and because she was too proud and stubborn to compromise for just any available man. Following the rescue by Caranthir's force, there may also have been few single men left in her generation that she would have liked enough to marry, even if she wanted. She did get the short end of the stick, but Haleth grasped it firmly none the less, and insisted on a fair reckoning.
Haleth has gotten a lot of flak for looking the gift horse in the mouth, but her reaction in retrospect seems reasonable from her own position. It's less than the reactions of Beor and Hador the elf-friends, but it is more than the bulk of the Beorians, and some of Marach's folk, who chose to return over the Blue Mountains into Eriador and skip out on the war against Morgoth. Tolkien was also at pains to inform us that the Haladin were less organized and less ready for war than the peoples of Beor and Hador, and so less useful in a directly military context. Caranthir might have mistaken the fury of desperate defense for the studied courage of Beor's folk on the one hand, and the pride in valorous skill at arms of the House of Hador on the other. In that situation, it would be to Haleth's best interest to politely but firmly refuse his offer and lead her people onward to the safest place they could call home. That still wouldn't prevent Caranthir and Haleth from parting on good terms, and Haleth gaining possession of a Noldor sword to wield, and her heirs after her. Caranthir also seems to have done better than Thingol, for he was there on the scene making his observations, instead of demanding absurd conditions from Menegroth. (Finrod once again played the friendly mediator in letting the Haladin settle in Brethil.)
It might be charitable to ascribe to Caranthir some personal growth and understanding of Middle-Earth on its own terms following the meeting. Maedhros and Maglor took the Easterlings as followers later on, and it might be that Caranthir had a recoomendation on securing the friendship of the next group of Men that came on a volkurwanderung over the Blue Mountains. I do also think that Caranthir had no real beef against Dior on a personal level like that which doubtless spurred on Celegorm and Curufin. He might well have followed his usual no-apologies-needed position and insisted that Maedhros fulfill the Oath of Feanor in its fullness. They had asked for its return, and been refused; now was the time for action!
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
n924 In reply to Zeonista [2015-01-08 18:01:01 +0000 UTC]
"However, I continue to suspect Haleth put aside husband and family as a personal sacrifice for being the leader of her people...and because she was too proud and stubborn to compromise for just any available man. Following the rescue by Caranthir's force, there may also have been few single men left in her generation that she would have liked enough to marry, even if she wanted."
Actually, Haleth was 34 when this happened - much above the known Edain women's marriage age that varied from 17 (Hareth) to 22 (Rían). I think she had chosen to stay celibate long before her father and brother and most of men got killed.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Zeonista In reply to n924 [2015-01-08 22:28:09 +0000 UTC]
Even I can forget the details sometimes. Haleth was then 34 then, that adds to her presentation and response to Caranthir. Maybe the siege finally brought Haleth's real abilities to the fore, and turned a tomboy spinster into a leader of Men. Now, I do think the pressure on a woman in a leadership role is greater than that put on a man in terms of home and family. I am familiar with Elizabeth I and Empress Matilda's problems, so I can sympathize with Haleth in her situation. But she did well enough, so I have to salute her dedication to her role. I do wish sometimes that Tolkien had left us more of her story.
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
Libra1010 [2015-01-03 16:32:09 +0000 UTC]
On a more serious note, this IS a most excellent work of art Master Mohan and I admire the facility with which you have made Lady Haleth look businesslike, rather than alluring and somehow made Dark Caranthir a hugely formidable figure without even showing his face!
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
Libra1010 [2015-01-03 16:29:56 +0000 UTC]
I admire your ability to paint a picture so well with both your words and your … pencils, paints, whatever else you turn your hand to, pardon my mild envy! - but I hope you'll forgive me if I write that I took one look at this picture and thought: 👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Haleth: "Make it snappy Elf, I've got a people to lead, kin to bury and Orc to wash out of my hair!"
Caranthir: "I see."
JeantineHobbit In reply to Libra1010 [2015-01-04 00:22:49 +0000 UTC]
Lol! Haleth rocks! Can't wait to get to her parts in the Silm!
👍: 0 ⏩: 2
Zeonista In reply to JeantineHobbit [2015-01-04 22:48:12 +0000 UTC]
Like he said, Haleth's part is very brief, and is part of the general history of the introduction of the Edain into Beleriand. But she really stands out as a character, even with such a brief appearance, that one wonders if Tolkien lost a notebook with some more notes on her.
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
TurnerMohan In reply to JeantineHobbit [2015-01-04 00:25:48 +0000 UTC]
then be sure not to blink when you get there, i think her whole story gets about four or five sentences
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
| Next =>