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TurnerMohan β Hall Of Fire preliminary sketches
#elves #rivendell #tolkien #vikings #lordoftherings
Published: 2015-03-23 05:33:28 +0000 UTC; Views: 7672; Favourites: 109; Downloads: 74
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pursuant to my recent elven architectural studies, i spent the better part of and hour the other night re-reading the couple of pages in the hall of fire, probably one of tolkien's most well described elvis structures (which is not exactly saying alot) and with it - in everything from description of the hall to the song of the elves to bilbo's poem of earendil with his shining maille and his swan necked ship vingilote - he seems to be giving us the elves at their most romantic, nostalgic, and stylistically, at their most purely ancient germanic, like we were in alfheimr of nordic mythology.It was suggested to me some time ago to do a take on the hall of fire, i figure once i've got the building itself to my own satisfaction, i can work on using it in a finished composition (I already have one in mind)
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Comments: 18
I really like this intrepetation of the hall of fire, and i shall be inspired by it for my own art. I myself as very much inspired by my own upbringing here in sweden, especially rivendell is a lot more swedish "folk" then other peoples art.Β
I am actually quite tired of the movies elven astethics (how beautiful they may be!). And its refreshing to see a new take, but still with that elven otherworldlyness, that the movies had. Would love to see your thoughts of the other parts if rivendell.Β
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I would love to see what you make of the Last Homely House--it's always been hard for me to picture it, coming as I did to the book after the release of Peter Jackson's first film. I like Alan Lee's early sketches of something that might fit in with art nouveau meets Swiss chalet, but I think that's not quite right. Ted Nasmith comes close but his architectural conceptions lack the organic feeling and sense of nostalgia that yours possess.
Elrond's house to me always has the impression of being rather large, with those corridors that Sam gets lost in, like a rambling English country house, old and yet timeless. How would that translate to something that the Elves of Imladris--being a mixture of Sindar and exiled Noldor--would have built as a lasting home "away from home" as it were for themselves, and as a refuge for the diminished race of Numenor? Interesting to think of.
Is the Hall of Fire a pendant to the great hall where everyone sups together? They are across a single passage from one another. What does the rest of the house look like? Is it four ranges around a courtyard, holding sleeping rooms for sleepless Elves? Or guest accommodations? What do Elven kitchens and pantries look like?Β
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Gosh your sketches are so sweet!!! I love them!
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This really is awesome...
Just for the record, as you've probably seen it, Tolkien did draw Rivendell at least three times : here , here and there (that inspired Ted Nasmith's ). The first things it shows is that Tolkien had no clear idea of how the surrounding should look like. 
John Hodgson's attempt , though not imaginative and "curvy" enough to me, convey many things of Tolkien's paintings.
I like what you wrote about Elves don't even needing structures and building only "for beauty and enjoyment" (by the way : did someone ever told you that your 'e' look just like your 'r' ?). As for the "all roof"/"roof and wall" design I hesitate. I just love the "all roof" design : it reminds me of the Sagrada Familia (one of my architectural crush) with the natural curviness and the tree-like pillars (especially appropriate for Elrond who considers himself the last heir of Thingol) and the vastness. It is also "alien" enough to look very elvish (even though I believe you took inspiration from the vikings. On the other hand it might be too big to bring the cosiness that I imagine when reading. Furs are a good idea to convey that feeling too I guess. It seems that only Elrond and Arwen have their own seats the others being like ol' Bilbo on stools or on cushionss, with their backs "propped against a pillar".
May be an important part with the "wall or no wall" interrogation is to consider what you will choose for halls like those of the Kings of Rohan (since your smaller drawing resemble Meduseld has seen in the movies). Meteorological aspects can be at stake : while the Vale of Imladris seems to be quite protected (though windy in december according to the departure of the Fellowship the 24th) the Rohirrim built Meduseld only a generation after their arrival in Rohan so it was probably copied from the halls they used to build up north (that probably closely resembled the House of HΓΊrin in the snowy land of Dor-lΓ³min). Considering that aspect I'll say that the hall of Meduseld should use the most effective structure against snow and cold while Imladris could use the other. That's just one idea among other to help you decide (though as I said I have a preference for the "all-roof" hall for Elves and the more classical one for Men).
I don't know if you noticed but the "Hall of Fire" closely resemble the Room of the Log in the Cottage of the Lost Plays : there are many smilitudes between the Cottage and the Last Homely House and Lindo and Elrond to me and the Room of the Log plays the same role, it is the place in which you hear tales and songs around a great fire after dinner. If you haven't I suggest you re-reading that passage, you may find ideas that could help you in your research.
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these were most directly inspired by tolkien's own drawings of beorn's hall (of which there are three by my count 40.media.tumblr.com/5f583c6010⦠www.jrrt-obrazky.wz.cz/Beorn%2⦠web.uvic.ca/~hrycraft/PW401/As⦠, the last one - which I'm not really sure if it is actually beorn's hall or if it's just been listed that way - being a straight ripoff of a pre-extisting drawing of the inside of a viking hall) it's always a gift to fan artists whenever tolkien expressed in no uncertain terms (which is to say in a picture, especially one that isnt indescernably primitive or just plain terrible, like his drawing of orthanc) what he intended parts of his world to look like, and i doubt there'd be much question anyway - in the minds of astute fans who understand where he was coming from with his whole "mythology for england" - as to what is meant by his continued refference to "halls." he was obviously a huge fan, aesthetically and culturally, of the ancient germanic "longhall," (probably most famously exampled by Heorot, of which Meduseld is a pretty close copy) and used it's layout again and again in his descriptions.
as for how i would draw meduseld differently, i don't know, and to me there doesnt have to be any hard and fast rules on the issue of walls, like "human halls have walls, elven halls dont." as i've mentioned before (in refference to the armor of glorfindel and ecthelion and my use of basic gothic elements in elven stone architecture, and probably elsewhere) i think a pretty good way to imagine tolkien's elves is as how the ancient norse might have imagined a superhuman people (such as the "alfir") stylistically like themselves - it's pretty damn hard for any culture at any time to imagine a superior or futuristic culture that is not ultimately very much like their own contemporary culture in appearance, just look at how much of the technology and clothing in movies supposed to be taking place hundreds of years from now like "prometheus" basically looks just like our current stuff - but advanced and alien in beautiful and uplifting ways. I imagine a hall of men (particularly "north-men" ) like meduseld or hurin's hall in dor lomin would probably look a lot like heorot as it appears in the movie "beowulf and grendel" ( www.powayusd.com/teachers/dsyk⦠www.verasir.dk/images/Beowulf%⦠) i really loved that film's portrayal of the hall of hrothgar precisely for how back-woods and primitive it looks and feels, perhaps moreso than is fully appropriate for meduseld, but definitely closer to a mannish hall of middle-earth (and to earning the accusation of being a "thatched barn where brigand's drink in the reek") than the alltogether too clean and well made (for my taste) meduseld we have in the jackson movies. and if something like that's what a human long hall looks like, than elven halls like the hall of fire, as i imagine it, are the inspiration; the elvish original, imitated (as is always the case) by far less skilled human artisans to far less beautiful and elegant effect.
the high-elves ofcourse had already "evolved" into building cities and towers in stone long before the early second age when rivendell was founded, which encourages this picture in my mind (obviously not backed up by the text in any direct way, but useful for conceptual purposes) of the hall of fire - this purely "vikingish" hall by elven standards, and a place of singing and nostalgia - as being an intentional throwback architecturally. perhaps it's the type of building that the elves at cuvienen built, long before all their far more sophisticated stone towers and more "hallowed" royal halls and such. I imagine perhaps they built it at the time of the founding of rivendell as almost this sacred hall, sacred the way memory and song are so important to the immortal elves they might be said to be sacred; it's a hall of remembering, built along much the same lines as the very first elven communal structures were, long before aule taught them about stonework.
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I like a lot your interpretation of Rivendell as "a remnant of the past" : it is indeed. Both Lorien and Imladris play that role, but I see Lorien as combining the memories of the Nandor before they met their "greater" cousins (something that the Sindar princes of Doriath who came to Greenwood and Lorien have been looking for according to the UT) and the memories of Valinor that Galadriel cherish, while Rivendell is a remnant of Beleriand with a mix of Noldor and Sindar like it existed their before.
To comfort your theory of Rivendell as a memory of Beleriand at his pinacle (before the Noldor : the Sindar are apparently more into wood except when they associate with the Dwarves) Tolkien stated that Elrond sees himself more as the heir of Thingol than FinwΓ« (may be cause his sons rebelled against the Valar).
Otherwise I entirely agree on your vision of Elven architecture and its connextions with human architecture and I'm eager to see what else you will come up with !
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Stunning. I love your Interpretation of it. I wonder if Tolkien had imagined it similar.
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This is the ultimate evolution of what I'd "see" every time I read that scene. Tolkien would be impressed. Definitely.
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well i hope the "ultimate evolution" will come when I get to feature my finished design for the HOF in a painting with the proper atmosphere and color and all 
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Your designs continue to amaze and improve! I can't help but fall into agreement with many of your interpretations, especially of the more obscure and under-described elements of Arda. I look forward to every new piece you submit with anticipation, as much for the art as for the explanatory description. Kudos!
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thank you! I'm always especially glad to hear when tolkien fans - especially those who sound like they consider such things - agree with my interpretations of tolkien's world; middle-earth is a world i sense most people (again those who've read carefully and considered such things) have a pretty close, similar vision of, like everybody kind of knows what places like rivendell or minas tirith should look and feel like. I'm happy i was able to strike near the mark for your taste on this one, I'll probably be doing a scene in the hall of fire as a finished painting which will hopefully come closer still
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I look forward to seeing it. I loved the movies' version of both Imladris and Lothlorien, but they weren't very similar to what I had in my head. Of course, the problem with watching the movies is that they have a tendency to overshadow the mental pictures you form when you read, so you start seeing the settings and characters as they were portrayed in the films. It helps to go back to the books and re-read the descriptions carefully. Of course, these still leave a lot to the imagination, since Tolkien could spend pages describing a forest but then not give us any information about the most basic of things such as, say, a character's hair colour or a building's architecture. That's why I'm particularly impressed and inspired by your interpretations β you take the given descriptions and build around them with educated guesses based on what we know of the invented cultures and histories, as well as how similar things were affected by similar cultures and histories in the real world.
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that's what I aim to do. I was just giving some thought last night and this morning to how i might do some of the elven architecture of galadriel's people in caras galadhon as opposed to elrond's. you're right, the key is re-reading; while the movies took some big liberties with tolkien's descriptions (and often pretty well considered ones, like leaving the "white city" all white rather than giving it a jet black first ring of the same stone as orthanc, as tolkien does) there's no real reason for fan artists like myself, whose only real intent is to make pictures of tolkien's world as he wrote it, to do so. Having seen (and tremendously enjoyed for many many years) the sets and minatures from the movie, I'd rather try and design a hall of fire (or a front gate of erebor for example) as that thing itself, not a good looking film set of it (sorry if that's not totally clear
I'm glad to enjoy the confidence and feedback of fellow fans like yourself with these designs, it definitely help me feel like i'm on the right track (now I'll probably do some sketches of galadriel's oval shaped dwelling)
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I like your idea here. The whole structure looks very Germanic, but not quite historical - it's like a superhuman race's idea of what Heorot would look like. Everything is really graceful, curving upward, artful instead of functional. The curving roof looks slightly organic, like a scallop shell, hinting at the Elves' marine origins. The "all roof" design, instead of any walls, is a nice otherworldly touch that fits the Elves. The interior is cool: a combo of Anglo-Saxon longhall and Gothic cathedral indeed.
I dunno if they should have art on the roof/walls. The whole structure is art. I remember hearing somewhere (was it the LOTR art book?) that Peter Jackson wanted the Elvish halls to have large open windows instead of paintings - the beautiful nature outdoors would be the "artwork", in a sort of Feng Shui harmony between house and nature.
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generally speaking, i agree with that disposition on pj's part, i think the "openness" of elven architecture as presented in the lord of the rings movies was really well considered (i also really like - and my studies on the hall of fire here kind of follow from it - the way that the "house" of elrond was presented in the film not as one building with many rooms but as this rambling collection of buildings strung together by covered walkways and such, it fits with the somewhat commune like nature of rivendell, and allows rooms like the hall of fire to be ancient, individual structures in their own right) and if i do more studies of rivendell architecture (the council chamber or elrond's dining room, for example) i'll probably do alot of big windows, but the hall of fire is remarked to have no other light sources but the hearth itself, which i take to mean no windows, and is supposed to be this place of song and memory, so i figure it's one of the more purely "indoor" structures in rivendell; if he elves want to walk around in nature they need only walk outside. i imagine it somewhat like an indian longhouse, this sort of dim place of smokes and the sound of crackling embers, where the great moments of joy and sorrow of the elvish past are kept, which is what inspired the "storied webs" (also i don't remember if they are said to be in the HOF itself, but tolkien remarks on the hanging woven cloths and such in rivendell.
I'm glad you like these. the curved "all roof design is my favorite so far, though the proportions probably still need a little fine tuning.
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Β I have to admit that my own mental image of Rivendell really gelled when I realised that it was more of a Family Home than a Stately Manor - even if the family is a Noble one - beautiful but still a place where people LIVE rather than a studio set.
Β Not to mention home to one of the finest collections of books and curios in Middle-Earth; where else do you think Aragorn and Gandalf would keep the souvenirs of their long and interesting travels?Β
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