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Zedrin In reply to Cyklopi [2014-01-02 15:13:19 +0000 UTC]

Kyubey was a neutral. Kyubey didn't cause grief. Hope and despair were human elements.

You're the first person I've heard suggest that Kyubey is the antithesis to Madoka. :v That's probably why you're so confused--that's a baseless link of logic. There's no evidence whatsoever that Kyubey exists to balance out Madokami--Kyubey is purely neutral. His goal is to simply pray off the struggles between hope and despair of the human race.

The idea behind Madoka's wish was that she changed how despair materialized, while understanding the need to allow humanity to advance with help of the Incubators. Hence, curses became ghosts of the people who bore them--as wraiths--rather than concentrating inside magical girls themselves as witches.

Though, that's not the point of what I provided.

The antithesis in this case rests purely with Homura, actually. Each wish will be met with an equal amount of despair. My interpretation here is that Homura's wish was more powerful than she could have fathomed: she ultimately gave rise to the goddess of hope, ergo she needed to ultimately succumb to the ultimate despair.

Whatever despair Madoka encountered, she gave herself the ability to fight it, rewrote the world, etc. It's still there, but she was able to deal with it.

It's not a matter of balancing the world, it's balancing their desires themselves. In the new world, a wish too great will still lead to tragedy or even death--Sayaka still dies for Kyousuke's sake, Kyouko's family still is killed, Mami still is the only one to survive in her family, it's assumed even Nagisa dies shortly after contracting (notes suggest she made her wish in the hospital, only to realize she wished for the wrong thing and she immediately fell to despair, becoming Charlotte in the original timeline, and simply dying in Madokami's world). Their wishes still have a cost to them, and grief still follows them, it just doesn't doom them to becoming a witch.

This comic isn't playing it off as balance but rather order. Homura's wish ultimately came true: she protected Madoka at a grave cost.

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Cyklopi In reply to Zedrin [2014-01-03 01:28:42 +0000 UTC]

It is rather debatable if Kyubey was neutral or not - many people consider him to be evil. But that's not my point. My point is that Kyubey is in FACT opposite to Madoka: he is emotionless - she is very emotional, he is deceitful - she is truthful, he don't give a damn about people - Madoka care about everyone, he was sacrificing others- she sacrifice herself for others. You can't deny that, it is so  obvious! Also if you consider that PMMM series was reinterpretation of "Faust " then Kyubey is naturally Mephisto - the devil figure, so it's only natural that Madoka who in the end become a Christ figure, is Kyubey's antithesis.


And yes, Kyubey was praying on human despair - that in itself is rather evil, if you ask me - but if he didn't granted girl's wishes, then they wouldn't fall into despair and they wouldn't turn into witches and they wouldn't die. For exemple: in first few timelines Sayaka didn't made a contract and she didn't meet her demise. Her tragedy was direct result of wish she made, wish granted by Kyubey so he was at least partly responsible for all girl's tragedies.

So, like I said: you don't have to balance things out - you don't need a devil figure, because you already have one: Kyubey/ Mephistopheles and Madokami/Christ figure is his antithesis. You don't need to create force opposite to Madoka's hope, because despair never disappeared - it could be even argued that despair grown stronger in world created by Madoka because before, Madoka's sacrifice there was only few emanations of human despair, after Wraiths were greater in numbers than Witches.

As for Homura's wish - it's another reason why "Rebellion" make no sense-. TV series proved that  Homura CAN'T protect Madoka - she can at best help her to gather karma, that's it. If Akemi's wish was grantable, it would come true long ago. But it didn't. In one  interview Urobuchi said that Homura was trying to save Madoka hundred times over, and she always failed, every single time. I don't see a reason why now, and only now Homura's wish would come true? It make no sense.

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Zedrin In reply to Cyklopi [2014-01-03 02:00:28 +0000 UTC]

Your interpretation is fine if you insist upon maintaining it. I disagree with it because I find it baseless and fallacious, especially the note on Kyubey as it's a major stretch to make such a connection and it breaks a lot of established canon (just because it's based on Faust doesn't mean it follows it 1:1), though I can understand that if you have the preset bias of said interpretation that you would choose to ignore what was stated in this comic I drew, and you're not going to bother trying to consider it because of that.

Additionally, this might be worth reading (2012) images.puella-magi.net/6/6c/Ho…

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Cyklopi In reply to Zedrin [2014-01-03 10:37:41 +0000 UTC]

Why it is baseless and fallacious? I already given you a lot of arguments proving that Kyubey is Madoka's antithesis - again: she is very emotional- he is completely emotionless,  he is deceitful - she is truthful, he don't give a damn about people, she care about everyone etc. And since you have nothing to say about my argument, since you don't have any counterpoints, then I consider that I won in our little debate. I pointed out opposing character traits of Kyubey and Madoka - on the other hand, only opposing viewpoint between Madoka and Homura is that Akemi don't respect people wishes, where Kaname have respect for people free will: scene in concert hall when she offered Sayaka to undo her wish and bring her back to life, but when Miki said no, she honored her wish. And that difference between Homura and Madoka only exist in "Rebellion" - before that, Akemi had some moral standards. If she was so immoral that she didn't respect Madoka's free will, then why she never kidnaped her, and keep her away from Mitakihara, and wait until Walpurgisnacht threat was over? That's because Homura had some morals, and certainly she didn't want to hurt person she loved. There is nothing in TV series that could suggest that Homura is a devil figure - she could be seen as Faust, or even better as Cassandra daughter of Priam, but she was never metaphorical devil. Her behavior in the end of "Rebellion" was totally out of character: Homura had never done anything so deceitful and selfish up until that point. Why else would it shock people? You don't expect her character to do something like that!

And you said that only because PMMM it's based on Faust that doesn't mean it follows it 1:1. OK, so then why you insist  that "Madoka" must be literal interpretation of judeo-christian mythos? Just because we have "god", it dosen't mean that we need a "devil" to balance her out.  And by the way, if you agree that PMMM series was reinterpretation of "Faust", then who Kyubey was if not Mephisto himself?

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Zedrin In reply to Cyklopi [2014-01-03 12:36:18 +0000 UTC]

And if you're typing up a response, please don't. This argument's getting old and pointless.

I'm fine with people disagreeing with my theories when it comes to my comic, but at the very least do it on grounds involving correct information. Don't use a flawed interpretation to tell me I'm wrong. (Again: Kyubey as the antithesis of hope? Every single person I've talked with finds that notion utterly absurd.)

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Cyklopi In reply to Zedrin [2014-01-19 23:07:17 +0000 UTC]

If you don't want to talk to me, then simply don't respond, just ignore me. But I will not going to shut up, just because you don't like what I've have to say.

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Zedrin In reply to Cyklopi [2014-01-03 11:57:59 +0000 UTC]

The thing, I've already pointed out that Kyubey isn't the antithesis of Madokami. I've provided evidence to that that you weren't able to refute, and you've yet to provide evidence that actually supports that notion.

To reiterate: canon demonstrates that Kyubey's motives are not out of grief or hope. It's purely about energy for him. You're telling me that the being who doesn't even understand despair and hope is the embodiment of one. That's why your argument is absolutely baseless.

The big thing that's been a recurring element in the show is that the girls were betrayed by their own wishes--NOT by Kyubey. This is something even Urobochi has declared during an interview. Kyubey did withhold information wherever it would be most lucrative for him, but in the end each girl face grief equal in weight to their wishes. Every little shitty move Kyubey made was about practicality, not about malice, despair, etc.

And one other key error you're making--you're assuming Homura is evil and Madoka is good. That's not what my argument is, specifically. While it is possible for them to be as such, my comparison is between grief and hope, which is something that's confirmed in Rebellion.

You also need to keep in mind that Homura just went through being a witch. She literally went insane, and became something no longer a magical girl or a witch, but something more. Something strong enough to take down a god. She calls it a demon. Her morals no longer matter (and I don't think they're totally gone either. There seems to be some guilt in the final scenes, plus she gave everyone a new chance at life, whereas Nagisa and Sayaka originally died).

And all this follows through because of the wish she originally made: to redo her meeting with Madoka Kaname and be the one to protect her. At the end of Rebellion:

-She meets Madoka again

-She is now her guardian, even if it means pulling the wool over her eyes and manipulating her

Her wish up to that point had never come true. You're right: in the series, every single time she failed to protect Madoka. But here's where you're wrong: every single wish a magical girl makes when they contract ultimately does come true. If the wish has too high a cost, it often leads to their death immediately, or they find that the impurities in their heart ultimately led to them being betrayed by their wishes (Sayaka saying she wanted to help Kyousuke, then realizing she just wanted him to love her; Mami wanting to save herself, neglecting her parents; Kyouko wanting people to listen to her father, not specifying how). Again, this is common knowledge from the series itself, and was also discussed by Urobochi during interviews.

As for Faust, I haven't read Faust. That's not exactly relevant. I can acknowledge it pulls much from the same path, but at the same time, there's no reason for it to be restrained to that path alone. As a work in its own right, it's free to diverge, and that's what took place in Rebellion. Hence, it doesn't need to follow 1:1.

The reason why I don't care to argue further is because there's not much of a point in doing so when someone's entire argument rides on a singular fact that, despite being incorrect according to the explanations of the original author of the work, insists upon standing by it. It's a simple matter of I trust the author's word over your own.

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Cyklopi In reply to Zedrin [2014-01-19 23:04:36 +0000 UTC]

Sure, I'm incorrect because you said so... Can you show me a quote in which Urobuchi said that Kyubey is not evil, and that he is not Madokami's antithesis? Only because you said that my claims are baseless dosen't mean that they are baseless. You must actually refute what I'm saying, not just ignoring what I'm saying and make your ow claims.

Again: my point was that he is emotionless - she is very emotional, he is deceitful - she is truthful, he don't give a damn about people - Madoka care about everyone, he was sacrificing others- she sacrifice herself for others, he is benefiting from peoples suffering, she is paying the price for helping others. Tell me, how is this not true??? You didn't refuted this at all. In fact, you didn't refuted anything - you just said that Kyubey is morally neutral, which is not true since he is deceiving girls and he is feeding on their despair. At best you can say that Kyubey is doing wrong things for a right reason - he is using girls to save the universe, but that doesn't make him good, it's debatable if he, himself is evil or not but one thing is sure, what he is doing IS evil: HE IS ACTUALLY FEEADING ON DESPAIR AND HE IS CREATING THIS SICK SYSTEM! In fact all Madoka did was to clean up Kyubey's mess - yes, her actions were direct result of, Kyubey's actions, nothing more, nothing less. Yes, ultimately wishes betrayed girls, but Kyubey granted those wishes in the first place, so he is at least partly responsible for what happened. For exemple: if he didn't granted Sayaka's wish, she wouldn't be able to heal Kyousuke and therefore she wouldn't fall into despair, she wouldn't turn into a witch and she wouldn't die. Yes, Kyubey was at least partly responsible for this - he is like a drug dealer who is selling kids seemingly a quick fix, he is taking advantage of girls emotional problems, he  know damn well what is going to happen and he is benefiting from this! How is this good or even morally neutral action? And again - all Madoka did was to change this sick system created by Kyubey, and that's another reason why she is Kyubey's antithesis. And BTW - aside from being evil Homu-devil is not antithesis of Madoka's hope - she is at best embodiment of selfish love, but she don't want to hurt people, she doesn't benefit from their suffering and she actualy want to MAKE people happy - whatever they want it or not. So, unlike Kyubey she is not feeding on despair, quite the contrary, she wants to create illusionary paradise for Magical Girls - so there is no dichotomy of hope and despair here at all. Even more: there is no balance of power and ideas here, because Madoka is no longer goddess, therefore she is not counterbalance for Homu-devil. That's not zero sum, my dear - that's metaphorical Satan being stronger than metaphorical God, and God being reduced to mere mortal. That's not balance - that's devil ruling over the universe, something that Madokami never could do. So, no, this is not hope and despair canceling itself out - that's devil triumphat and that's very mean-spirited and contrary to shows message.

As for Homura's wish... It could be argued that in the end of TV series, her wish indeed come true - she helped Madoka to gain enough Karma to allow her to destroy all witches before they were born, therefore Walpurgisnacht coudn't kill Madoka, because Madoka erased Walpurgis from existence. As for meeting miss Kaname - Homura meet her multiple times, this wish come true. But again Homura couldn't save Madoka on her won - the only way that she could do that was to help Madoka gain enough Karma. If this wish was grantable in any other way it would come true, earlier on, in some earlier timeline. But it didn't. What you are saying is that Homura's wish was so seemingly powerful that it could overthrown a goddess and rewrite entire universe, but it wasn't even powerful enough to save Madoka from Walpurgis, which was city level buster witch at best? That's why your claim make no sense! And why Homura's wish would be more powerful than Madoka's wish? And BTW this whole soul gems being corrupted by love, and love itself being more powerful than hope and despair,  put together is ridiculous ass pull! It was never even hinted that it's even possible! What's more how this never happened before? You telling me that in thousand of years in which Kyubey was making contracts no Magical Girl ever loved someone? How about Sayaka's "Love me do"? How about Homura herself? Did she never loved Madoka before "Rebellion's" finale? How about all those times when she was trying to save Kaname from Walpurgis, and she always failed, where was her power of love back then? Or how about Homura transforming into a witch in "Rebellion" - she didn't loved Madoka back then? And how Kyubey - you know person who created this whole system in the first place - doesn't know that love is seemingly more powerful than hope and despair put together? That's why "Rebellion" make no sense at all!

As for Sayaka being alive - that's one of the reasons why I'm so piss off about this movie. Now, TV series is completely irrelevant, pointless and meaningless. Sayaka is alive so her story and her character arc in TV series is absolutely meaningless - there is no consequence of her choices at all. Even Kyousuke is healthy, so there was  no price to pay for Sayaka resurrection, and that's incredibly lame. Same can be said about Madoka - her growing up arc is now, completely pointless because she is just a kid again and her sacrifice means absolutely nothing. But somehow witches are not around anymore - even though Madoka is no more helping Magical Girls to avoid despair - having a cake and eating it too, and that's lame. How is this even possible? This same can be said about all positive messages of the show - message of hope is now completely gone. So what was the point of original series? Yes, now TV series is completely pointless. How is this a good thing? This movie ruins the Madoka name, there is no way to deny it.

As for "Faust" - if girls are doing faustian bargain, then only logical conclusion is that Kyubey must be Mephisto, there is no other way.

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Zedrin In reply to Cyklopi [2014-01-20 01:02:02 +0000 UTC]

bagh, too long.

I'm just gonna say this: there's plenty of articles and writers out there to explain it. If you don't want to heed mine, fine, but you're up against a lot of explanations to disprove.

Your claim is that something doesn't make sense. You can argue that it doesn't, true, however it's kinda a perilous stance to take because if there's a logical hashing-out of how it DOES make sense, it puts your argument in jeopardy. There's been several articles, blogs, and arguments that do manage to explain it very well, both what happened, why it happened, and how it happened, from a very diverse set of viewing angles, not just one.

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Zedrin In reply to Zing-007 [2013-12-23 23:17:00 +0000 UTC]

It only took me a week of writhing in mental pain

I would've taken depression and despair over that, though. That was just frustrating and made it hard for me to experience the 'feels' that the original series gave me.

But still, now that I've got it figured out...

Rebellion wasn't a good movie in its own right. But it was a hell of a lot more than just a movie--considering the prior two, the series itself, the world and lore--and that's why it's good.

Forgoing the symbolism, there's another thing that makes it so much more brilliant: it's facetiously everything the fans ever wanted.

-Kyoko and Sayaka are alive and together

-Mami is no longer alone

-Charlotte lives and doesn't become a witch

-Homura is finally able to protect Madoka

-NO ONE IS DEAD

You asked for this, fans, and it came at a price. Be careful what you wish for, because you've been betrayed by your own prayers.

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Zing-007 In reply to Zedrin [2013-12-24 05:50:36 +0000 UTC]

Haha XD

I'm so glad someone brought that up. It's funny how the fans literally got everything they wanted, but now that they have it, some don't want it. (I'm actually fine with it, I love bitter endings) In a way, its sort of how the whole wish system in the tv series worked: "Every wish comes at a price"

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Athyra In reply to Zedrin [2013-12-24 02:20:22 +0000 UTC]

I totally agree with you! First impression after the movie's over: OAO -total numbness
By itself, Rebellion would be... let's not go there. But considering it's a sequel, and combined with what we know and feel of the TV series, one can really appreciate the various messages throughout the movie. Homura's characterization for one, is brilliantly done and gave the movie's title its true meaning. There are so many things I enjoy in the movie that outweigh the con, and all the symbolism is one of the many.

-Kyouko and Sayaka - yes! practically married lolololol call her Miki Kyouko from now on XD
-Mami finally having someone by her side, I'm totally on board with that
-NO ONE IS DEAD <--- yes. Like Homura said to Sayaka, they should just enjoy the new life they've been given and cherish it.

Also, Mami and Homura's gunfight. Epic to the nth. The word 'intense' doesn't even begin to cover it

The only part I'm sad about it Homura's own happiness. Poor thing just never gets a break, but then this is MSMM we're talking about. Like the zero sum theory you speak of (which I totally agree), everything has a price. being meguca is suffering after all

I'm looking forward to the rest of the comic

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Zedrin In reply to Athyra [2013-12-24 03:48:05 +0000 UTC]

I think Homura's technically happy at this point, in a sadistic sort of way. Or she's forcing herself to be content with the outcome.

As for the comic, it's only 4 pages o-o wasn't meant to be a long project.

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Athyra In reply to Zedrin [2013-12-24 06:05:06 +0000 UTC]

compared to before, yeah I'd say she's definitely happier. While out of reach, at least Madoka's real and not just a mere concept.

Oh I see, well it's well done and I enjoyed it

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