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AdeptCharon In reply to EeVeeEe1999 [2018-03-10 06:08:16 +0000 UTC]

I didn't think of the Sound/Flying->Sound/Dragon evolution one o:

But my decision was simply based on the assumption that gamefreak had a deliberate reason to make those Flying/Dragon and not Dragon/Flying like everything else.

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EeVeeEe1999 In reply to AdeptCharon [2018-03-10 14:27:21 +0000 UTC]

Oh, ok then

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AdeptCharon In reply to fauxlens [2018-03-05 20:43:56 +0000 UTC]

Whenever I'm considering type match-ups, I have a certain approach that makes a distinction between the offensive and defensive side of a type.

I try to come up with a hypothetical creature, that acts as a representative of a type in the most straightforward and pure way (so I think of what would be stereotypical features of a PKMN that was ONLY that type, with no other type influence whatsoever, and then exaggerate it as if it was double that type on a single PKMN). That's what I put on the defensive side.

In other words, I avoid imagining pure elements coming in contact and the reaction that follows. It's always an attack of element X being used against a creature of element Y.

So let's say I wanted to explain the type match-up between Fire and Water. Normally people are satisfied with just going "literal water extinguishes literal fire". I don't see it that way. Because it makes it sound like just any benign puddle of water is a threat to fire. That's not what happens in PKMN. The real explanation we want is one that explains that Water-type moves (which means it's an attack, it does damage, that's a given even before its element enters the discussion) are super-effective against Fire-type PKMN (so what we are looking for is what kind of creature doesn't just take damage from it, but more damage than you would expect).

So just saying element X makes element Y go poof, doesn't work for me, because that could often just be an argument for it dealing any damage. We need to know why it deals more than neutral damage when it deals damage to something.

But after saying all that, I have to ruin it all by adding that a lot of type match-ups don't have solid reasons behind them. Often it's just an exaggeration of one aspect of the type, other times balancing plays a key deciding role (for example I wouldn't want to make Ice moves even more amazing than they already are).
And a third part that's often not considered, is to make the type really feel unique when compared to all other types...like, maybe it has a combination of weaknesses that none of the other types had a chance to show off.


But onto Sound.

Sound is a difficult type to think of on a type chart from the defensive side. Because causing damage with a sound-move is easy to imagine, but imagining a typical Sound-type creature enduring different kinds of elemental attacks is a lot harder.

So I tackled the offensive side first.
Sound waves travel through A LOT of things. So sound travelling through water doesn't sound as enough of a justification for a weakness to me. Yes, sound does behave differently in water than in air (it travels ~4.5x faster for example).. but at this point I'm imagining a typical Water type PKMN and a typical Normal type PKMN getting hit by Hyper Voice and whether one gets harmed more or less than the other.

I see the "typical Water PKMN" in this scenario as something wet with thick oily protective skin, a creature that doesn't mind the increased pressure of deep diving, and that makes me think it would take less damage from sound than a regular PKMN.

The easy targets for a weakness to Sound seemed types that feel like they're skills. Because when you have, say Psychic, I imagine a humanoid creature with superpowers with their mind as the source. I feel like Sound-moves would mess with their "skill" that they use for offense and defense. Same for Fighting. I can easily imagine an honest powerful trained fighter PKMN completely losing its focus and put off guard from being blasted by sound-moves. (other types I considered for similar reasons include Flying (since staying airborne is often an active process that needs to be kept alive, so disturbing that would attack the essence of a pure Flying type) and Dark (I mean you could argue that there's no hiding from sound-moves, as the waves propagate around any space and even through some obstacles), the only reason I exclude Dark is because it would cause quadruple weaknesses to Sound for type combinations that already have quadruple weaknesses (like Dark/Fighting would be 4x weak to fairy/sound, and Dark/Psy would be to bug/sound..)... but I will concede that the official type chart has some really bad cases as it is (Grass/Bug is really bad, and Rock/Steel is ridiculous with 2 glaring quad weaknesses considering its meant to be a combo of 2 very defensive types), so maybe the "quadruple weaknesses" themselves require some kind of adjustment, in which case I'd want to slap Dark in to Sounds victims as well.

The other side I considered as PKMN weak to Sound, was "what kind of material is the creature made of?". I didn't see any immediate reasons for thinking Dragons or Fairies would be more susceptible to Sound than other creatures. But I did figure that Bugs and mineral-based creatures probably have extra layers to dampen the incoming soundwaves, or just less complex internal body structures I guess.. most of all, they could really use another resistance LOL.

But Steel types strike me as this creature that is partially made of alloys, partially covered in metal armor.. in other words, I see individual concentrated metallic layers rather than something homogenous. And that makes me think of all sorts of resonance and reverberation issues that would make the sound-moves persist or cause more harm than usual.

I imagine something heavy and metallic like Metagross getting hit by a powerful Boomburst, and it just getting broken on the inside, especially with being Psychic as well. Whereas for an Aggron the damage is neutralized by it being a more balanced mixture of steel and rock.

I also felt like Grass-creatures would take sound-moves well, because being organic and stable, makes them more...rubbery, if that makes sense.

As for Sound VS Sound... my initial thought was just as yours.. an obvious case for an immunity. But I quickly reconsidered that. Because usually what makes you think of an immunity, may just be a good reason for a resistance, you need a really strong case to say that the damage of an incoming attack is actually straight out nullified rather than just resisted (like Flying being immune to Ground, or Ghost to Normal... very strong cases). Sure, Sound creatures I'd imagine would be used to taking stronger soundwaves..considering they endure their own ones that could damage them. But actual immunity to Sound seems like something that a select few special Sound types would have.. and that can be done by an ability like Soundproof, so really, a resistance seems perfectly adequate to me, I see some Wigglytuff getting hurt by Hyper Voice, not as bad as a Clefable, but it also wouldn't just be unaffected by it either.

So that takes us to the more problematic defensive side. When you have a type that is hard to imagine "defensive features" for (usually the case with very elemental types.. for example Electric. As an attack it seems like the most obvious thing ever, but as a defense...what do Electric types gain defensively?.. all I can think of is electrical charge..and that gets completely circumvented by Ground moves as they funnel any built up charge straight into the floor upon contact) it may mean that you should just stick with a smaller amount of weaknesses and resistances total for it.

The typical Sound type... I imagine something with orifices that produce sound or features that can vibrate, but that's about it.
Water seemed like the element that would mess with them...in the same way a dust storm would...it's just that dust storms aren't an exclusive feature of any single type, while Water is... it's not the best idea I have, and I'm open for changing the Water weakness to something else...
Similalrly, Bug as a weakness was mostly just an inference from Bug resisting Sound (we see this often in a type chart..when something is obviously weak to something else, there is often a resistance going the other way, with no obvious explanation). But suffice to say that whatever defense the Sound type provides, Bugs would battle you like if that defense wasn't there... I still need to come up with a specific explanation for this one, sorry xD

As for the resistances... I threw Fairy and Electric on there to keep it simple and because those 2 resistances would be really useful in the existing metagame.

One additional description I could be sold on for features of Sound creatures, would be that they're often covered in insulating material that dampens or counteracts incoming soundwaves.
And perhaps that would warrant an Electric weakness.

Sorry, this got really long and it's not even as well thought through in the context of a Sound type specifically XD But I hope it gives you some food for thought on how type match ups can be viewed more in depth.

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fauxlens In reply to AdeptCharon [2018-03-06 07:47:27 +0000 UTC]

Hmmm interesting read, but I def feel like we have different interpretations of how typing in Pokemon works (not that that’s a bad thing!) hehe

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