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AtheosEmanon — I judge your protests by the arrests by-nc-nd

Published: 2011-11-25 16:56:30 +0000 UTC; Views: 3350; Favourites: 26; Downloads: 23
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Description A friend and I were speaking about social movements in this nation’s history and how in general social movements were usually met with mass arrests for those doing the protesting, and in some cases deaths as well. My friend who, full disclosure, is a conservative republican who then countered my argument saying how a group he supports the tea party has had no known arrests and that shows how justified their cause and how unlike the occupy wall street people they know how to conduct themselves… I shall touch back on this towards the end..

It should be stated that when I say arrests I am speaking of not only the number of people arrested which below I will show a long history of such but also show of the naïve people who expected help from those whose main job it was to enforce the laws on the books. It should also be stated that I am not marginalizing protests where people were not arrested merely showing that arrests does not mean that a protest is not justified nor predicated on liberty and justice which was what got me writing this.

Note: I did not go too in depth in any one subject usually just writing a few paragraphs, I am sure a quick google search will support everything I have said as the truth, as well as tell you a whole lot more information on the few subjects below as well as some other movements that I did not cover… it would be impossible to cover the hundreds of social movements that have occurred in American history by city, by state, and even by country…


A. M.-We can look at the abolitionist movements where men and women who were fighting for the abolition of slavery were arrested many times. At times these movements did turn violent as those who were opponents of the peaceful rallies of some of the abolitionist movements would come with sticks and guns to beat up on the protestors.

I could not pass this part without mentioning people like John Brown who led a revolt against the laws by action, where he and several of the men he led attacked slave settlements where their goal was to actively end slavery by what they thought were attacking those that actively stood in the way of liberty, those who owned slaves. Brown was later arrested and killed for his actions. I say this only to show that where peaceful resistance were shown to not work a man decided to take another route, one that caused his death yet dying for a cause of liberty for millions is something I must stand behind.

With also looking at the abolitionist movement what did we also see? Were the police simply bystanders? Sorry to tell you this; but for the most part the police are there to maintain the law, the police are there to keep order and maintain the status quo. It would be very naïve to expect help from a group whose main job is to maintain order and work with the laws on the books when you are by definition protesting the very laws on the books for a sense of justice that you believe is not there or from a law that is there yet that you believe to not being practiced.



[link]
W. S. The next movement I would look at is the women’s suffrage movement when American women were fighting for their equal rights under the law. Particularly the right for women to vote and hold political office the same as their male counterparts could. During this movement important women to the movement were arrested, such as a group of women led by Susan B. Anthony who were all arrested for voting when of course it was illegal for a woman to vote.

In 1913 on the day before the inauguration of President Wilson, Thousands of women were protesting for the rights of women, hundreds of them were attacked and injured by those opposing the rights for women. There was never any arrest made.

In 1917, hundreds of women were arrested for their attempt to bring rights to women across the country. Nearly 200 of them served jail time and some claimed to have been brutalized by their jailers, the very people who were supposed to guarantee their safety while incarcerated.

As with the previous movement, I shall say yet again it would be naïve of you to expect help from the police, it would be naïve to challenge a law and expect help from a group of people whose main job is to enforce the law on the books. Now, I wish to be certain to not smear all police as being this way, yet I would say all social movement that have shown themselves to be of importance started with defying a law… it has been this way since the founding of this country. The founders defied the laws stating the supremacy of Britain… You cannot have a true social movement that will get recognized without going against the unjustified laws that may be on the books.



L.M. The labor movement has a long history of not only arrests but killings as well. I will start with The Battle of Blair Mountain where hundreds of miners fought private companies for their right to unionize, for safe working conditions and a livable wage. During this gun battle, which is called one of the largest civil battles in American history since the civil war, which took place in West Virginia 15,000 coal miners fought against the sheriff’s department, the State Police, The US Army and a private detective agency. All of which actively fought against the workers gaining worker rights. Any stepping outside of the law was met with charges of treason by police officers, some convicted many others not.

In this battle you had Sheriff Don Chafin who received hundreds of thousands of dollars in order to fight against the workers unionizing, of which he ordered his men to arrest and imprison any coal miner who wished to organize and unionize usually with trumped up charges.

Then you have the battle of Matewan, which once again was a fight between labor groups, people who wanted to unionize and the private companies who hired thugs to kill those trying to organize. The private company known as Baldwin–Felts Detective Agency was hired to stop the people from unionizing by evicting them from their homes.. which had hoped would make them move and do away with the attempt to unionize. They attacked the town of Matewan where seven of the private detective agencies were killed, and four townspeople were killed, including the mayor of the town.

The police Chief Sid Hatfield and about two dozen other people was arrested for the death of one of the Private Detectives… but they were all acquitted,. When going to another trial at a later date Hatfield was shot and killed by the brother and an associate of one of the private detectives that had died in the battle of Matewan

As with the previous incidents, for the most part the law was against the miners and their right to unionize, as previous stated not all of the law were like this evidence of such men like Sid Hatfield who fought against the abuses happening to people who attempted to unionize, who was arrested and eventually killed in his fight to help the workers and stop the abuses.



L.M.-C-L: When speaking of the labor movement it cannot be covered without mentioning the child labor movement. Children were often used in mines because of their small frames they could squeeze in and place charges in the rock where a grown person could not fit into, this throughout the time caused the death of many children.

Yet when speaking of this it is not just dangerous at time but it is also unjust in that the children generally did the same job as their adult counterparts yet were not paid nearly as much. While there are many of those who advocated for the abolishment of child labor laws, one of the most well-known people was Mary Harris “Mother” Jones [more commonly known simply as Mother Jones. Jones was arrested several times in her fight to get equal pay for the young workers as well as the abolition of child labor laws as a whole.

In 1908 during her work trying to get coal miners in Paint Creek, West Virginia to unionize. During this strike armed men hired by the Coal mine owners to kill the strikers opened fire with machine guns on the crowd.. in this a guard was killed and as such Jones was arrested on conspiracy to commit murder and other charges..

she was convicted and sentenced to 20 years in prison, though she got very sick while in prison and just a few months after this her sentence was overturned by the senate in which she was found to be innocent of the charges.

In 1913 she was involved in yet another strike and was found guilty and spent nine weeks in prison… she was deported and then found her way back … where she was arrested yet again.

Like previous incidents the police in most case did nothing to help those being picked on. Ironically after the labor movement you now have many police unions and the majority of cops in America belonging to some type of union. Yet like previous movements only a naïve person would expect the help of the police whose job in a general sense is to keep order and maintain and fight on behalf of the laws that are on the books… so to expect help from a people who by definition are to uphold the law while you are fighting to change it is not smart at all.



G.R.M. – I will also discuss briefly the gay rights movement. I do not think any person can speak to the gay rights movement in America without speaking of the Stonewall Riots which was a series of at times violent clashes between gay rights opponents and police after years of police and government persecution of the gay community.

There were very few clubs, diners, and other businesses that allowed openly gay people to come to their places. Because of this many homosexuals started opening their own establishments, generally clubs where gays, lesbians, trans people could go, be welcomed and so on… yet this of course cause a problem. Police would raid these establishments since homosexual sex was still illegal during the 60s

[link]

It was not until 2003 when the last of the sodomy laws were repealed, sodomy laws of course made any sex between people of the same gender illegal though the main focus of this law were generally gay men.

When speaking of gay rights it would be hard not to bring up several men.

One mentioned below is Bayard Rustin, an openly gay civil rights icon, the chief advisor to Martin Luther King, who also in his later life advocated and was a proponent for gay rights in America and who testified in 1986 in front of the New York state Senate in which he said
“Today, blacks are no longer the litmus paper or the barometer of social change. Blacks are in every segment of society and there are laws that help to protect them from racial discrimination. The new "niggers" are gays. . . . It is in this sense that gay people are the new barometer for social change. . . . The question of social change should be framed with the most vulnerable group in mind: gay people.”

Which challenged the notion that social change was predicated solely on racial and gender injustices. Challenging the social mantra of somewhat conservative thinking of their view of family of only man and women and any who dared to step out of this could expect to be demonized.

When also speaking of gay rights mentioning Harvey Milk who was a huge proponent of the gay rights movement and was the first openly gay person to be elected to public office in California. Milk got into politics after seeing hundreds of people what he believed to be illegally arrested and being generally picked on for being homosexuals



C.R.M. you cannot speak of social movements in America without speaking of the civil rights movement. I decided to connect this with the labor union movement since a key figure in both movements was Martin Luther King Jr. A man who fought for the rights of black workers to unionize and at the time of his death he was in town to protests with the sanitation workers so that they may unionize.

Yet moving on the civil rights movement which is more than labor, which is more than children’s rights, which is more than woman’s rights and gay rights and so on…

King protested at many venues and was arrested quite a few times, in order to try to make the people lose favor king was smeared as a communist, anti-American… he had his phones tapped many times, was tailed by federal agents to try and get dirt on him and those he was around. During his life MLK was imprisoned nearly 30x for the fight for civil rights for people he believed were not being given them.

When speaking of the civil rights movement you cannot do so without discussing the mass demonstrations that took place on college campuses, marching onto public places, peaceful resistance which had thousands of people arrested, dozens of people killed, which had women raped and beaten by the opposing people

You had people like civil rights leader James farmer who led peaceful protests yet who reported how police beat up protesters, how many people were arrested, himself included for peacefully protesting on what was public ground.

You have men like Bayard Rustin, an openly gay man who was the chief adviser of Martin Luther king, who, himself was arrested for being a homosexual in his younger years which was considered illegal.

The civil rights section of this incorporates all of the movements previously mentioned. From the abolitionist movements, from the labor rights movements, from the women’s rights movement, from the gay rights movement, to the abolition of child labor laws and from many of the other civil rights and social movements that one has taken part in our history, where the people were usually met with mass arrests and mass injustices against the them usually by public officials as well as the police.


W.U. To wrap this up I will get back onto the premise that caused this where a friend was speaking of how the tea party movement is more justifiable because they have had no one arrested. To say that is to say all of the major civil movements in American history which granted rights to millions people were not justified because people were arrested. Currently in the Occupy Wall Street Movement thousands have been arrested, several hundred arrested just a day or so ago in the “day of action” when they were marching around New York City. To say this is not a justifiable movement because people are being arrested make no sense given the historically correlation between civil protests and mass arrests.

As with the other movements, it would be naive to expect help from police in general. Police are there to protect and abide by the very laws that you are now challenging. They are there not be sympathize but to enforce. I have seen very few social movements in this nation's history, if any, where the police in general sided with those challenging the very laws that they swore an oath to uphold. So it does not come at any surprise when I see police using pepper spray intended for bears, not people, at a minimum of 15 feet away... spraying it at point blank range in the eyes of people. It does not surprise me when I see police shooting rubber bullets at protesters, it does not surprise me when I hear the stories of police enclosing protesters in a small areas in order to arrest and pepper spray them more, it does not surprise me when I hear these things because history tells us that the law enforcers are there for just that, enforcing the very laws that you are now protesting, that you are now challenging.... no one ever said that change was easy and no one ever said that true change happens overnight... it is a long and hard fight for justice, for some resemblance of liberty... for some distant memory of the idea of liberty that is the ideal of us all...

To connect previous person to this you have the MLK Quote:
"You can't talk about solving the economic problem of the Negro without talking about billions of dollars. You can't talk about ending the slums without first saying profit must be taken out of slums. You're really tampering and getting on dangerous ground because you are messing with folk then. You are messing with captains of industry.... Now this means that we are treading in difficult water, because it really means that we are saying that something is wrong... with capitalism.... There must be a better distribution of wealth and maybe America must move toward a democratic socialism".

The OWS group, usually called the 99% are people who are doing just that. Who believe that to address social progression you must also take the money out of politics. You must hold politicians accountable, yet make sure that money does not drown out the want of the people. They also want realistic regulation, they are not “anti-American”, nor do they want to see American destroyed. Quite the contrary they wish for America as a nation and its citizens to flourish … not just a few select people making record profits as the nation goes into record debts, as 1/6 of the country now lives below the poverty lines, as we do nothing to address the over 100K Americans that die each and every year from a lack of or no medical coverage, how we continuously cut education and wonder why America has went from being in the top 10 of all academic subjects worldwide to now being in the 20s-30s range in many of the academic subjects.

So, while I may not agree with the tea party to say they are more “justified” because they have not been arrested makes no sense in an historical; social movements in the nation’s history. If you wish to be a tea party person, great, have at it yet saying you are more justified and as such have a better message because no one is arrested should make you evaluate why that is.

In many social movements in our nation’s history those involved in social movements were challenging the establishment, were arrested, beaten, and in some cases killed. If you say this group is wrong because they are being arrested and beaten, even veterans who have taken to the streets have been beaten by officers. I believe history will be on the side of those from Occupy Wall Street, yet with respect to the Tea party, have you never wondered why the establishment for the most part are not against you? That those in power do not see you as a threat to their profits? … it is because you are nothing more than pawns being used as a chess piece by those in power.


As always, the views with respect to the opening and closing is all my opinion and myself as a liberal, progressive and democratic socialist will not lie and say that there is no bias based upon my views because I am sure there more than likely is. Yet it does not take away from the historical facts listed above of mass arrests of people who challenged the status quo and who would not sit by and do nothing.

As always comrades,
Let knowledge be that truth, which portrays humanity, condemns malevolence; that respects the differences in others while abandoning the hatred and misconceptions of the past.
-Emanon
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Comments: 111

Fuiron In reply to ??? [2012-02-07 02:44:05 +0000 UTC]

*nods* Yes, indeed. As for learning by myself, I enjoy it, but I like having company, too. Other people can offer insights I cannot see, and their ways of thinking can be truly alien.

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AtheosEmanon In reply to Fuiron [2012-02-07 02:55:07 +0000 UTC]

Well being an autodidact does not mean you do not take the views of others. I can read the views of others I may disagree to either reaffirm my views or see what it is about their views I do not like or how I would do better. Such as Ayn Rand, good general ideas yet I would approach in a much different ways than her stand by and just let the market handle it approach.

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Fuiron In reply to AtheosEmanon [2012-02-07 21:53:46 +0000 UTC]

I meant more along the lines of talking with others. ^^

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AtheosEmanon In reply to Fuiron [2012-02-07 22:49:04 +0000 UTC]

You can be an autodidact and speak with others... I am pretty sure that is common knowledge.

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Fuiron In reply to AtheosEmanon [2012-02-07 22:52:36 +0000 UTC]

*nods*

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werejaguar In reply to ??? [2011-11-26 20:16:34 +0000 UTC]

Great job, and all I have to say is that when it came to the tea party people it seems that they were older and more likely to be armed than say the ows people are.

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AtheosEmanon In reply to werejaguar [2011-11-26 22:08:27 +0000 UTC]

If Occupy Wall Street happened any place else you may have seen guns. Since the gun laws in New York are quite strict but since their message is reform not revolution like the tea party that of course is another reason they did not have guns. They wish to reform the system, hold politicians accountable and so on.. the tea party speak more of the overthrow of the federal government

Thanks for the fave as well

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werejaguar In reply to AtheosEmanon [2011-11-26 22:15:25 +0000 UTC]

You're welcome and yeah I don't doubt that for one minute. That is why I think the tea party are the more dangerous of the two, that and they have electoral sucess already.

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AtheosEmanon In reply to werejaguar [2011-11-26 22:55:19 +0000 UTC]

Sadly some of the stuff I hear from the Republicans remind me of a man I respect and who is on my influence map
[link]

"while the state exists there can be no freedom when there is freedom there will be no state"
-Vladimir Lenin

Funny if they knew they sounded like Lenin they would shut up about the evil state or perhaps embrace their inner revolutionary hahaha

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werejaguar In reply to AtheosEmanon [2011-11-27 00:46:12 +0000 UTC]

Maybe, maybe not, I swear these Republicans are like old people complaining about young people skateboarding. They are a geneation if not more behind in their way of thinking and think that if they can be ignorant or bigoted enough they can go back to their "good old days".

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AtheosEmanon In reply to werejaguar [2011-11-27 01:00:16 +0000 UTC]

lmao @ old people since their party is called the GOP .. Grand Old Party.

They are just Tories ... I often laugh at how similar they are in their want for a liberal economy, a state's right supremacy and yet everything they advocate for must be done at the federal level. But hey, I fully support them if they want to take their state and leave the US *whistles*

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werejaguar In reply to AtheosEmanon [2011-11-27 01:04:53 +0000 UTC]

so do I, as long as those states are called Alabama, Mississppi, South Carolina and Utah

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AtheosEmanon In reply to werejaguar [2011-11-27 01:21:59 +0000 UTC]

Such a shame, the women in Alabama, Mississippi, and South Carolina are naturally thick and sexy...

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Fuiron In reply to AtheosEmanon [2012-02-05 05:35:46 +0000 UTC]

How sexist (a joke, I assure you)! What of the men? I've met a couple of fellows down there I rather like... Lincoln was right to keep everythin' together.

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AtheosEmanon In reply to Fuiron [2012-02-05 15:11:19 +0000 UTC]

Lmao, well I am not into men I simply find, and this could be because of my travels that most northern women, such as in NY, Jersey are so concerned with being thin while southern women I find are very secure with their thick shape.

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Fuiron In reply to AtheosEmanon [2012-02-05 20:55:34 +0000 UTC]

I am into men, women, and quite a few things in between (what is in between, anyway?), hence my comment. The South has great cooking, interesting culture, etc--thus, they produce some truly unique individuals. And, gotta appreciate a lady who's not afraid of being huggable, so I understand your point *winks*.

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AtheosEmanon In reply to Fuiron [2012-02-06 13:43:11 +0000 UTC]

Transsexuals perhaps? I do not know, I have several pansexual friends who are into men, women, transgendered, transsexuals and so on.. As long as they are happy and no one is harmed I go by the to each their own train of thought.

Lmao, yes I agree, I was born and raised in NYC, it will always be home. Yet I have been to every state with the exception of Alaska. I have been to many countries but NYC will always have a special place in my heart and will always be home.

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werejaguar In reply to AtheosEmanon [2011-11-27 01:24:10 +0000 UTC]

maybe, but if these went, plus Arkansas, I really would not mind

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AtheosEmanon In reply to werejaguar [2011-11-27 02:12:13 +0000 UTC]

Can't we just keep the attractive women? I mean southern women, sexy, can cook, quite humbling

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werejaguar In reply to AtheosEmanon [2011-11-27 22:36:15 +0000 UTC]

Well you can, as for me cooking well.... not really all that important to me, for now.

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AtheosEmanon In reply to werejaguar [2011-11-27 23:44:35 +0000 UTC]

lmao, cooking is not important? You eat your food raw? hahah

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werejaguar In reply to AtheosEmanon [2011-11-27 23:46:28 +0000 UTC]

Well there is always take out....

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AtheosEmanon In reply to werejaguar [2011-11-27 23:56:32 +0000 UTC]

Lmao, why have take out when you can have home cooked meals

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werejaguar In reply to AtheosEmanon [2011-11-27 23:59:29 +0000 UTC]

Well true, I guess I figure I can cook pretty well by myself so cooking is not really needed, for me at least in a woman. Now a woman that is in to kinky sex is another story.

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AtheosEmanon In reply to werejaguar [2011-11-28 00:00:57 +0000 UTC]

Lmao, I can cook but... why cook when I can have someone cook for me hah

The gay roommate does all of the cooking.

I am posting a debate I had on religion with an atheist he called me misguided and delusional

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werejaguar In reply to AtheosEmanon [2011-11-28 00:17:55 +0000 UTC]

nice and go on ahead, that debate I have got to see.

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AtheosEmanon In reply to werejaguar [2011-11-28 00:18:14 +0000 UTC]

[link]

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werejaguar In reply to AtheosEmanon [2011-11-28 00:44:06 +0000 UTC]

thanks

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MechaTails7218 In reply to ??? [2011-11-25 23:14:45 +0000 UTC]

Well said, good sir. Just a word of advice, put a "read before commenting" tag or whatever it is before the article because someone might misinterpret this as an anti-OWS piece.

I like how this shows how real movements, not astroturfed ones like the tea party, are met with opposition from the establishment. A corrupt government won't play nice when it's met with opposition, and will make up and use flimsy excuses to attack them. Besides direct opposition with police raids, they will also use plants like rabblerousers to make the movement look bad, the media will use strawmen fringers to demonize the movement. They know they can't win if the middle and poor united against the wealthy, as we outnumber them 99:1.

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AtheosEmanon In reply to MechaTails7218 [2011-11-26 03:33:15 +0000 UTC]

To be quite honest good sir, if someone comments on something with their preconceived notions of what something may say or may not say then they are the very people who go into an election booth and vote straight ticket... the same mindless people who will serve better use as slaves rather than leaders... if one is serious in their ventures then they should not have to be told to read something before commenting it. I can lead someone to the ideal but I cannot make it theirs...

I agree with your assessment, like that one guy who had an antisemitic sign at the occupy wall street ... Fox news and all of the right wing stations showed that one man for weeks what they DID NOT show is what happened after that. When the OWS people were confronting that man asking him to leave because this was not a hateful movement and so on... Fox did not play that because it does not fit their narrative of the OWS people being antisemitic evil commies who want to destroy America.

Instead like the tea party, the right wing narrative is to smear them as evil people. Let us not forget that they did the EXACT same thing with Martin Luther King Jr. they called him a communist, they said he was an subversive agent to the American way of life and wished to destroy it...

The smart are often challenging the ideals of the powerful to make life better for the many at the expense of the self.
-Emanon

This is the way of all true social movements, a small group fighting, dying for an ideal that is greater than the self, the ideal of liberty.

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MechaTails7218 In reply to AtheosEmanon [2011-11-26 05:06:38 +0000 UTC]

True, true.

We should be careful with throwing out the left vs. right phrasing. While Fox News is right winged, and they blatantly set up propaganda in favor of the big corporations and the Republican party, the left vs. right war is one of the biggest tools these crooks use to divide and distract the people. With the vast majority of both parties in the pockets of big corporations, they capitalize in on the "We need to vote a Democrat/Republican in because we can't let a Republican/Democrat screw us over" line of thinking. OWS has people on both sides of the isle and people in between them coming together to fight the real enemy, the last thing we need is a splintering of the movement.

Also, if you ask me, a good chunk of the movements in history have been about a form of class warfare in one way or another. During the abolitionist movement, who held the most slaves back then? The rich plantation owners. Slaves were expensive to buy and upkeep, so only those that had a lot of money could keep buying more slaves and gruel to keep them fed. Women's rights? If women got the right to vote and run for office, that's a huge variable/group to cater to that might not vote in your favor if you play your cards wrong. Which would make it harder for a politician to be corrupt, including ones that are bought out. It would raise women from a subhuman like class to a human one. It goes on. And these movements had the exact same opposition throughout history: people that are mislead through misinformation through various dubious sources, or misunderstand the reason for them, or are just plain ol' hateful about change and would rather cut the nose off to spite the face.

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AtheosEmanon In reply to MechaTails7218 [2011-11-26 05:35:42 +0000 UTC]

*compromise on policy [not police]

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AtheosEmanon In reply to MechaTails7218 [2011-11-26 05:30:14 +0000 UTC]

I do not think it is a tool to have a set of principle and are willing to go against those who oppose those views through your last breath. If a man does not stand on a set of principles that he would put above all else then what good is he? I use the term right wing in the sense of what the “right” or more conservative leaning groups have been known for throughout history, particularly the socially conservative groups in this country’s history. Such as the limit of the individual in conjunction for a business or economic venture. I wear my politics on my shoulder and they are definitely to the left of many, I am an unapologetic liberal, I am an unapologetic progressive and I am an unapologetic democratic socialist if these things would divide me from a group that I would not agree with on my best of compromising days then so be it. I am more than willing to compromise on police, but I shall never be willing to compromise on principle. This is not a dividing tactic it is a simple truth of what one holds dear personally vs what has been shown to work historically. If one wishes to allow division based on something that they would not and cannot agree with anyway, then so it.

I am not naïve enough sir to believe that I will agree with everyone in this country, man is naturally divided, it is a good thing to have different views and the liberty for such. Where that line must be tempered by pragmatism is in the not automatically seeing the different of opinions as the opinions of destruction and assuming them to be enemies. While I do not agree with many of the right wing narratives in this country they are not my enemy, and in general both sides have the same general ideal but different ways of getting there. These people are no more useful to me in my direct and loud opposition to their very position on my premises of what I believe to be liberty which does not allow me to compromise on many things for the sake of the people I am fighting for,

A man’s politics like his faith are his own, to work under the false premise that there is no left vs right, that there is hm differing of political opinion and a manner of doing things make no sense to deny such an obvious thing. Does it make one a buyer of propaganda, no sir, it makes one aware that in this country and on this earth that not everyone will share your particular views be they politics, social, economic, religious and so on.

Notice sir, I did not mention party, you did, I generally see no real different in the two major parties with very few exceptions. I would vote for a Democrat like FDR any day, I would vote for a Republican like Eisenhower or Goldwater as well. But principled politicians who understand that hatred comes from change and that gaining the hatred of people who you vehemently disagree with is not something to be shied away from… it should be embraced and loved for standing up for an ideal that you would not only live for, but that you are willing to die for.

Everything can be predicated on the premise of class. The have and have nots will always battle for a bit more.. this is a way of life, has been since our founding and before. I see nothing new under the sun as matters of differences, only thing new is the players the game is and shall always be the same. To test the limits of human greed but to not be so quick to be unable to differentiate between human need and want. It is a fight of the ages, to provide but not to enable, to give but to not spoil.. a thin line but one that must be walked.

Many social movements tend to be the have nots vs the haves, those that have learn to be prosperous on the abuses of a system and those who believe themselves morally obligated to challenge that system… The fight has not changed in thousands of years, it is the same battle, over the same wants over a different means of attaining them.

Time tells who was right, yet as the saying goes, history is also written by the victors so we must learn to find the truth with the lies of the text written even if it challenges what we believe to be true, especially if it challenges what we believe to be true.

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MechaTails7218 In reply to AtheosEmanon [2011-11-26 06:15:39 +0000 UTC]

It's nice arguing with you. You actually argue with well thought out arguments instead of strawmanning the opposition (or use other logical fallacies) and claim victory.

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AtheosEmanon In reply to MechaTails7218 [2011-11-26 08:13:04 +0000 UTC]

Thank you sir, I wish you a good day...or rather night/morning? since it is now 3AM here.

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xDraconianKingx In reply to ??? [2011-11-25 17:34:40 +0000 UTC]

Not bad! I think Woodrow Wilson once said "If you want to make enemies, try to change something." which is a good quote in my opinion. I also, like FDR's quote of "Judge me by the enemies I have made."

So really I'm glad you posted this!

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AtheosEmanon In reply to xDraconianKingx [2011-11-25 19:20:52 +0000 UTC]

Both are quite true statements. You don't make many enemies by remaining silent and doing nothing... you make them by challenging the system and putting your life on the line to change what you believe to be truly a great injustice.

Thanks for the fave as well.

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xDraconianKingx In reply to AtheosEmanon [2011-11-26 15:41:40 +0000 UTC]

Not a prob!

Unrelated, but Skyrim is freaking cool! XD

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AtheosEmanon In reply to xDraconianKingx [2011-11-26 22:06:47 +0000 UTC]

Yes I have been playing it for a few days... I just ordered Shivering isles upgrade for oblivion as well

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xDraconianKingx In reply to AtheosEmanon [2011-11-27 05:24:23 +0000 UTC]

Niiiice. Sheogorath is entertaining, though I can't go back to Oblivion after playing Skyrim. Sadly, money seems to be REALLY hard to come by in Skyrim.

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AtheosEmanon In reply to xDraconianKingx [2011-11-27 06:41:03 +0000 UTC]

YES money is hard to come by though I do love how you can still move when holding extra weight...sucks you cannot fast travel with it though

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xDraconianKingx In reply to AtheosEmanon [2011-11-27 07:13:59 +0000 UTC]

I got scared when I saw two dragons circling in the skies at the same time.

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AtheosEmanon In reply to xDraconianKingx [2011-11-27 09:55:59 +0000 UTC]

Lmao, have you killed any of them yet? I have not started many of the quest in fact the only quest I did was the first one with the dragon claw. I am doing like I did in Marrowind, like I did in Oblivion... before I start the game I am walking across the map trying to get the entire map visual ..so when I start the game it will be with a stronger character, with extra funds, and with strong armor.

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xDraconianKingx In reply to AtheosEmanon [2011-11-28 02:39:05 +0000 UTC]

I've killed, so far, four dragons. I'm debating whether to help the Stormcloaks or the Imperials.

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AtheosEmanon In reply to xDraconianKingx [2011-11-28 02:43:35 +0000 UTC]

Lmao, I am just leveling to try and get the Daedric Armor... no where near level 90 in smithing but I will not start the main quest or much until I get my beloved Daedric Armor hahaha

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xDraconianKingx In reply to AtheosEmanon [2011-11-28 02:51:36 +0000 UTC]

The Daedric armor looks beautiful in Skyrim from what I saw.

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AtheosEmanon In reply to xDraconianKingx [2011-11-28 03:12:16 +0000 UTC]

yeah I saw it on youtube such a shame I have to get my smithing up to level 90 to even make it

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xDraconianKingx In reply to AtheosEmanon [2011-11-28 03:17:38 +0000 UTC]

Could be worse, the whole Dragon Armor is crazy hard to make from what I've seen. I'm actually considering using console commands to give myself some extra gold.

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AtheosEmanon In reply to xDraconianKingx [2011-11-28 03:52:55 +0000 UTC]

[link]

[link]

Daedric is stronger and in my opinion looks better hahahaha

console commands, no do not use cheats it ruins the game

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xDraconianKingx In reply to AtheosEmanon [2011-11-28 18:27:13 +0000 UTC]

I honestly agree that the Daedric stuff looks cooler! I honestly want the Daedric weapons because while my Orcish weapons are cool, they aren't powerful enough :/

I decided against it because I wanna play the game right THEN I'll go and mod

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