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BrokenMachine86 In reply to ElrondPeredhel [2013-07-30 03:56:39 +0000 UTC]

Thank you so much for that detailed and constructive comment! that's the kind I need the most! 

About Morgoth during the fall of Valinor:
-The idea is make it look like a dark knight, but I don't want a full body armor... or at least I want it a bit hidden below black clothing and a black cape. I just like it more that way.
-I was thinking making the helmet and the crown just one thing... but it could be a good idea to make them look like separated things. But the helmet with a mask stays, haha. I mean... I hate it when his face is shown in some illustrations, it just make him look silly... or too orcish. I just feel that inspires much more respect and fear if we never see his face. I never though the mask had a "stormtrooper look", but now that you say it I see the likeness... sort of haha. Anyway, I think I'm really digging that looks, still needs some modifications, but it will look pretty much like that on the finished version, someday
-About Thorondor and Morgoth's scars... well, the hit could throw Morgoth's helmet/mask off, and the claws bury in his face, or maybe pierce through the metal, or maybe he wasn't using the mask part of the helmet in that moment to see Fingolgin face to face. There's various possible scenarios I think that give us the opportunity to play with how it looked and make different illustrations about it!
-The sketches at the bottom looks like Sauron because it was more a test about size comparison thatn anything else. Believe me, I don't want him to look like Sauron hehe. I mean, yeah, he could look a bit like Sauron... in fact it must look a bit like Sauron (or Sauron could looks a bit like him, to be more precise), but I don't want them too look like twin brothers. That's why I reduced the pikes in the crown, to not make them look so long and tall like Sauron's helmet.

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ElrondPeredhel In reply to BrokenMachine86 [2013-07-30 14:02:29 +0000 UTC]

Hehe : Being what I'll call "un dessinateur du Dimanche", a french expression meaning 'an amateur drawer' (litteraly "a Sunday drawer" - No se si se dice "dibujador/designador del Domingo" en Argentina) I'm not good enough to do technical comments. So  I only do constructive comments about Tolkien illustrations

- I totally follow you on the "not-full-body-armor" : it can be eather way. In fact I see two Morgoth "panoplies" : the Morgoth in full armor fighting Fingolfin with not too much clothing (it's important to see him with his feet in order to imagine Fingolfin's death) and the Morgoth "tyran of Middle Earth", all clad in black clothes with a huge cape flying in volutes around his throne.

- I don't hate his face being shown as long as he doesn't look like an Orc. There is a lot of things to do. Look at this sketch by Turner Mohan : www.deviantart.com/art/The-Kin… . Sauron is shown with a face looking like an ivory statue. Morgoth was a God of fire and light in the past (when he was also beautiful and seductive) and then became more a God of the darkness and the underground. I can imagine his face like a black statue made of some volcanic rock, looking a little like coal (like something burnt but which doesn't burn anymore) and with a broader and more masculine face (while Sauron is quite androgynous).

- On the mask I was kinda mean about the stormtrooper look It's not the way I imagine it but it's still cool and kinda new so it's only a question of feelings and personal taste here I'll say : if for you it's a way Morgoth could look like, then keep going. As you say : we can imagine many things. I think Morgoth was scared by Fingolfin and would not have fight him if there was some other solution. But his great captains are here (not only Orcs but Balrogs, Boldog(s?) and probably some Werewolves) so he have no choice but to fight. So I guess if he used a mask he will have take it for this fight. But may be, as you said, the mask could be thrown off ? Or may be Thorondor's claws pierced through the metal, exactly. But you can also imagine that the mask came AFTER this fight : to hide the scars on his face ! I like this idea though, Morgoth could have asked to Sauron (probably the best smith in Angband) to forge it for him and Sauron will do the same for himself after the Drowning of Numenor (and the loss of his former beautiful face). What do you think ? Of course that's just the way I envision it and your free to use, or not, those ideas as it's just fan-fic I'm doing right now.

But remember, if you don't want to draw his face that doesn't mean you have to make a complete mask : look at this miniature of the Necromancer by Games Workshop ( www.games-workshop.com/gws/cat… ), it's a perfect Morgoth's head for me (not the body, notheavy enough).

- On the similarities with Sauron. In fact, Sauron in the movies does look a lot like Morgoth should be (heavy armor, a mace, big feet to crush Narsil down and break it, etc.), and as there is no real description of Sauron I imagine they take a lot of inspiration from Morgoth's description in the Silmarilion. So obviously it's difficult to go far from it.

I'll finish on Morgoth size, cause you talk about it. For me he is between five and six meters. I don't like depictions of a ten-fifteen meters Morgoth. Fingolfin is not a flying surfer like Orlando Bloom, I believe, and should be able to strike Morgoth, even on the back of his horse (too often forgotten), somewhere else than the legs without climbing on him. Cause if he does only wound his legs how would he be able to kill him ? And why will the last wound (in his foot) be different ? Also Noldor are around two meters and the Balrogs are said to be twice their size, so around four meters, I do imagine Morgoth to be a little taller (like two and-a-half / three times the size of a Noldor) but not too much.

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BrokenMachine86 In reply to ElrondPeredhel [2013-08-01 20:36:07 +0000 UTC]

Even if you are a "dibujador del domingo" (no sabia que hablabas español, pero seguiré hablando en inglés, por si te es más fácil para entender) in this case I appreciate the comments and critics of a Tolkien fan as much as the ones of an visual artist. 
-When I said "too orcish" I was thinking in the Ted Nasmith painting: www.eithel.narod.ru/nasmith.jp… . Pretty amazing on a artistic and technical level, but the character design is horrible. Other ones look too human, too elvish, too... I don't know, just not the source of terrible evil and fear that it's supposed to be Morgoth. I've seen one or two that are not so bad, but I found it far more effective and scarier not being so explicit, not showing is face, so one doesn't know how it really look like. The sketch by Tyrner Mohan, that's amazing by the way, shows Sauron as Annatar, its supose to be beautiful, in a dark and menacing way. Your suggestion about Morgoth's face sounds good, that's close as I would do it but it's no so easy. Maybe I'm just too difficult to please on that matter
-About the mask, I forgot to mention that Morgoth will be facing Ungoliant, so we would not even notice if he is using a mask or not. But someday I'll do a frontal version with the mask, that could easily be Morgoth AFTER the fight with Fingolfin
-And about his size, Tolkien describe it tall as a tower... but I always thought it was more a figurative than a literal description. Those illustrations where he is like 15 meters tall are ridiculous, after all, like you said, Fingolfin should be able to fight him in some way. I actually imagine him a little shorter, like no more than 3 or 4 meters top. I think the perfect size for him is like in the John Howe painting (one of my personal favourites): images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__c…
Beside, Morgoth put his foot on Fingolfin's neck... that means that if he was like 10 meters tall or so, he would have a 1 meter foot

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ElrondPeredhel In reply to BrokenMachine86 [2013-08-04 09:23:27 +0000 UTC]

Exactamente: Acabo de regresar de un año en los Estados Unidos y lo que he aprendido en Inglés, lo perdido en español.

You are absolutely right on Ted Nasmith's awful desihgn. I don't praise Nasmith that much except for a few illustrations ("The Mûmak" and "Tuor's first look upon Gondolin" to be precise). The Valar took an appearance close of the Children of Illuvatar so it's not choking for me to see a Morgoth with an human or an elvish face ,) But I totally understand your point.

3 or 4 meters are okay but I imagine him a little taller, as I said, to make him look taller than the Balrogs. But this illustration of John Howe is not bad at all (I just regret : it should be at the doors of Angband and it looks like a desert land in the middle of Angband, also Morgoth's pose seems strange for me, finnaly, of cours : Fingolfin's blond hair)

A pleasure to hear you

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BrokenMachine86 In reply to ElrondPeredhel [2013-08-04 18:57:10 +0000 UTC]

I thought for years that Fingolfin had blond hair because of that illustration and then I was kind of disapointed when I found out that he had dark hair...damn John Howe!! XD
Anyway, I just love that illustration. And I like Nasmith, but only for landscapes and sceneries... his characters desings are indeed awful.

Well it's been a pleasure to discuss this stuff with you. You're always invited to post your comments on any new Tolkien work that I upload, if you want to of course ^^

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ElrondPeredhel In reply to BrokenMachine86 [2013-08-04 20:36:58 +0000 UTC]

It's been a pleasure for me too. To be honest I have to confess I have two reasons to comment that stuff :
- As an amateur game conceptor I can have new potential illustrations for my "work" if the artist agree.
- As a Tolkien fan, the more my ideas can spread, the more I can put images on my thougts.

But discussing Tolkien and design with fine fellows is such a pleasure I'll do it anyway

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BrokenMachine86 In reply to Fergusthefiddler [2013-07-26 23:28:53 +0000 UTC]

Alguna? TODA! jaja, John Howe es uno de mis ilustradores favoritos de todos los tiempos, además de una de mis mayores fuentes de inspiración, así que es muy probable que se vea su influencia en las cosas de fantasy art que haga, especialmente de todo lo que sea de Tolkien. También de Alan Lee, que lo amo, aunque tiendo más a tirarme por la estética de Howe.

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