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ChatlaninKyr — Asitheyokths

Published: 2017-05-13 14:44:17 +0000 UTC; Views: 2284; Favourites: 23; Downloads: 5
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Description     If you ask modern galaxy inhabitants what makes a space civilization properly "space", going from deep space exploration to deep space exploitation, the majority will say: "Probably the invention of FTL engine?.." Although there are many arguments against such simplified definition, one can’t deny that the creation of a spacetime warp drive is a very important milestone of technological progress. Naturally, groundbreaking technologies, along with providing potential for development, often bring new unprecedented dangers; in case of a warp drive, such danger is a phenomenon known as the "arrival effect".
    During superluminal motion, particles of interstellar matter accumulate at the outer boundary of a warp field. When the field is deactivated, the accumulated particles are released in a form of forward-directed radiation similar to a shock wave. The particle outburst created by a starship that traveled several light years vaporizes any solid objects in front of it; if a habitable planet happened to be on a path of the particle stream, the results can hardly be described in other words than catastrophic. For this reason, spacetime warp technology is considered to be one of the Great Filters. Currently, this Filter is the last one known to the galactic community, and the most terrifying one, since a hypothetical war involving the use of the arrival effect can leave literally no trace of the civilization that started it. Some scholars hypothesized that there could've been many such wars in the past of the galaxy; others argued that any creatures sufficiently intelligent to invent FTL drive can refrain from weaponizing it. This discussion remained purely theoretical until the contact with Asitheyokths.
    Theyokth is a planet with a dense atmosphere that makes a full rotation around its axis for 14 earth days. Like many other Theyokthian organisms, Asitheyokths are adapted to long night periods: large eyes can see well in the dark, and between them there’s a thermal sensing organ hidden beneath the skin. Limbs that evolved from tongues have two functions. First, they collect particles from air (and anything they touch) and pass them to vomeronasal organ in the mouth. Second, they are sensitive to air currents; for better perception Asitheyokths have to periodically moisten their "hands" with saliva. Because of these factors, the limbs, despite becoming bigger in the course of evolution, still can fully retract into oral cavity.
    The civilization of Theyokth was characterized by a fairly rapid and stable development. The planet had a single big continent with no significant natural barriers, so trade and cultural ties between all nations inhabiting it were established quite early — in the historical period equivalent to antiquity. As a result, the civilization developed at almost equal rate all around the world. Wars among Asitheyokths were quite frequent, but never too intense and usually small-scale compared to those of other sophonts’ cultures. The space program began as an international initiative, and subsequently all major space exploration projects were carried out jointly by many Theyokthian countries. One of such projects was the invention of FTL drive and the first interstellar expedition to a habitable planet near a star 17 light-years away from Theyokth.
    However, what is good for a civilization doesn’t always have the same positive effect on a planet’s biosphere. As living standards in the Asitheyokths’ society grew, the inevitable population growth and its increasing needs affected the global ecosystem. But, despite severe pollution and loss of biodiversity comparable to mass extinction, countermeasures were directed against the consequences, not against the cause: standard strategy was installation of purification plants to create clean zones within populated areas. Thus, most Asitheyokths could afford to ignore the problem, and individual ecologists’ protests were simply ignored. Unable to induce anybody to take any effective measures, some environmental activists decided to resort to more radical methods. Ecoterrorism gradually became a widespread phenomenon, but among the wide public it predictably only caused stronger rejection of the environmental protection ideas, which, in turn, led to further radicalization of the movement.
    In the meantime, the first interstellar expedition was followed by new ones, and colonization of the newfound planet, named Sotodssi, became the next logical step. Promising a better life in a new virgin world, the leaders of the colonization project got plenty of volunteers and investments. According to ambitious plans, a developed self-sufficient colony could potentially become a new home for the entire species, if the homeworld is no longer able to support their existence. Obviously, in reality, when a number of migrants was a few thousands a year at best, it would’ve been physically impossible to evacuate billions of sophonts, but a loud advertising campaign and bold statements did their job. As a result, the international project helped to unite the Theyokth’s population, simultaneously in a short time turning the Sotodssian colony into a prosperous, rapidly developing society with huge scientific and industrial potential and, ultimately, with its own space program. At the same time, the colonial administration was gradually gaining more and more political influence, making it increasingly difficult for the home planet to restrain separatist sentiments among the colonists.
    Unfortunately, nature conservation was hardly considered any more important on Sotodssi than it was on Theyokth. While at the homeworld countermeasures were deemed futile because degradation process had already gone too far for recultivation, at the colony civilization’s influence still seemed to be too insignificant for serious restrictions. Unsurprisingly, cells of radical pro-ecological organizations soon appeared there as well. As further exploration of space was bringing reports of new habitable worlds, and population of Sotodssi was increasing exploitation of the planet’s resources, ecoterrorists were coming to a depressing conclusion: Asitheyokths will continue to spread through the galaxy, destroying all found ecosystems and leaving behind devastated, barely habitable worlds. To prevent this from happening, one of the most radical organizations decided to take a desperate step, which, in the members’ opinion, was their last hope: the destruction of the entire Asitheyokthian civilization.
    The plan was to unleash a war with the use of the arrival effect by capturing one of the Sotodssian interstellar ships and aiming it at Theyokth. Since there’s no superluminal communication, it’ll be impossible to warn the home system; the fleet of Theyokth will inevitably take the attack for the separatists’ actions and launch a retaliatory strike against Sotodssi. Further mutual attacks directed against space infrastructure will assure impossibility of the civilization’s recovery.
    The first part of the plan was eventually executed, and is still considered to be the biggest act of genocide in the galactic history. When the particle stream hit Theyokth, all living beings on the hemisphere that was facing the arrived starship died almost instantly from the secondary ionizing radiation. Rapid atmosphere heating caused violent storms; evaporation of huge amounts of water led to greenhouse effect and caused tectonic displacements due to decreasing oceans’ mass. Only a few thousand inhabitants of the opposite hemisphere managed to leave the planet before atmospheric instability made flights impossible, and launch facilities were destroyed by earthquakes. Over the next few days Theyokth turned into a Venus-like planet, and ​​proposals of subsequent expeditions in search of survivors became meaningless.
    The seemingly inevitable interstellar war was prevented by a single individual: admiral Shethsavisath, who assumed command after the destruction of headquarters on Theyokth. Realizing that the loss of both worlds would result in the entire Asitheyokth species perishing, she immediately ordered interstellar ships that were preparing to attack Sotodssi to stand down, and redirected them to assist rescuing the survivors. It took great effort to keep situation under control: at that time this order cost Shethsavisath reputation and nearly cost her life when a group of officers seeking vengeance attempted coup d'etat. However, for the following generations of Asitheyokths Shethsavisath, who literally saved the whole civilization from destruction, has become an acknowledged national hero.
    The crisis was eventually resolved by the colonial messenger starship that had arrived in a few days, after which the united fleet began evacuating the remaining population of the Theyokth system. The emerging tensions between colonists and refugees disappeared when it became clear that Sotodssians were equally horrified by the catastrophe. Moreover, the new joint government decided to take a name of Theyokthian Republic in honor of the lost homeworld. The attempts to restore everything that was lost, recreate Theyokth’s culture and fill gaps in history became an important part of the republican policy. After the contact with the galactic community the cost of interstellar travel has been greatly reduced, which allowed the Republic to start sending regular archaeological expeditions to Theyokth; for the Republic’s citizens they became a kind of pilgrimage that has to be undertaken at least once in one’s life.
    An unexpected consequence of the Asitheyokths’ unique history was the emergence of yet another political faction. The Chsonnutzi Stratocracy, seceding from the Republic, instead of restoring the past decided to focus on securing the future by reducing the threat of the arrival effect. To achieve this goal, the Stratocracy started an unprecedented project of gas giant colonization. Floating cities, distributed over a planet’s vast skies and hidden beneath a thick atmosphere, have fairly good chances of surviving a directed attack of a warp-driven starship. At the same time, high costs of establishing new settlements and their inability to become fully self-sufficient remain to be the problems that the Stratocracy has yet to solve.

Other facts:
  ·  "Admiral" is an approximate translation of Shethsavisath’s actual rank, since Asitheyokths’ military hierarchy is quite different from that of humans.
  ·  For all their unique history, biologically Asitheyokths are sometimes viewed as the most generic sophonts in existence. Two sexes, bilateral symmetry, four legs, mouthparts as manipulating limbs, visual system as a main sensory organ, verbal communication and some of their other features are very common in various combinations among intelligent species of the galaxy.
  ·  The arrival effect is based on an actual theory  of FTL drive properties.

The left one on the drawing is a female and the right one is a male.


RUS: то ли из-за многабукаф, то ли по какой-то другой причине DA не желает сохранять версию, содержащую описание одновременно на английском и на русском. Дублировать картинку только ради сопроводительного текста на другом языке кажется неуместным (это ведь не схема с подписями). Если есть вопросы по описанию, буду рад пояснить.
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Comments: 40

Vumpalouska [2018-04-15 16:42:07 +0000 UTC]

If a single FTL ship can destroy any planet or habitat with no chance of defense, I bet not many people would want to live on planets or habitats - nomadic civilizations constantly on the move would be the norm, making it practically impossible for them to be destroyed by the arrival effect.

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ChatlaninKyr In reply to Vumpalouska [2018-04-15 20:36:25 +0000 UTC]

Well, not any FTL ship, only the ones with long-range warp drive. Currently, such spacecrafts only exist as weapons of mass destruction, and they are quite expensive to manufacture and maintain in operational readiness.
And even though the idea has clear logic behind it, the setting's current level of technological and economic development doesn't yet allow for the existence of a self-sufficient nomadic space communities. Even if such an entity arises at this time, it'll soon find itself outdeveloped and at the mercy of planetary civilizations.

By the way, we actually have somewhat similar situation in real life, where any large city can be destroyed by ICBM strike with little chance of defence. And yet, I believe, there are no crowds of people leaving for the countryside

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Vumpalouska In reply to ChatlaninKyr [2018-04-15 21:19:52 +0000 UTC]

Our current situation is not really comparable to the one you described - the closest hypothetical situation would be a submarine-based terrorist organization using submarine-launched ICBMs to hold the world at ransom. Were something like that to happen, however, that submarine would no doubt be hunted down by the entire world with extreme prejudice. But space is, compared to a single spacecraft, vastly, vastly bigger than all the oceans of Earth compared to a submarine, and most star systems don't contain habitable planets at all; it would be much easier for a sufficiently advanced space-based civilization to disappear should it want to. Heck, it might exist in intestellar space for 99.9% of the time, minimizing its energy emissions and only making quick forays to uninhabited star systems to collect vital resources. Or to inhabited star systems to collect tributes from planet-based civilizations in exchange for not destroying their planet with an unstoppable, undetectable arrival effect weapon.

As soon as this type of FTL technology advances enough to allow for the existence of such civilizations, they will most likely emerge sooner or later, and there's absolutely nothing anyone can do to stop them. Unless they invent FTL sensors or something that can detect incoming FTL ships.

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ChatlaninKyr In reply to Vumpalouska [2018-04-16 13:11:14 +0000 UTC]

> "...the closest hypothetical situation would be a submarine-based terrorist organization using submarine-launched ICBMs to hold the world at ransom."
I'm afraid I don't see much of a similarity here. All currently existing interstellar warpships are controlled by governments or government-like bodies, which have their own planets and habitats to protect. Needles to say, those in power take considerable measures to prevent mass destruction weapons from falling into wrong hands.

Also note that, although technically capable of supporting a nomadic civilization, warp drive (type I FTL) is largely impractical for interstellar travel compared to the commonly used type II FTL technology (and nobody managed to weaponize that, so far).

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Vumpalouska In reply to ChatlaninKyr [2018-04-16 15:08:38 +0000 UTC]

But the risk is there as soon as the technology allows it. If not now, how about in 100 years, or in 1000 or 10 000 years? Those are all very small time periods in the context of stellar or biological evolution. All it takes is for a single group with the resources, technology and mentality to become an arrival effect weapon utilizing nomadic civilization, and they can control all other civilizations, and they can do this with no risk of mutually-assured destruction, as they themselves don't have planets or space habitats that could be destroyed in retaliation. It's a winner takes it all situation for the first group that decides to do it, and once they've done it, no one can ever stop them.

And wouldn't it be possible for a nomadic group to house their population in type II FTL ships, but still carry around type I FTL arrival effect "missiles"?

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ChatlaninKyr In reply to Vumpalouska [2018-04-16 20:36:10 +0000 UTC]

Well, for one thing, if you can think of it, then in-universe those responsible for the global security also can   And if they can think of it, they can track emergence of such a group and undertake necessary actions before it becomes dangerous.
Not that this sort of threat is realistically able to arise in the next couple of centuries, really. And I see no point in trying to imagine what the galactic civilization will look like in 1000 years (I'm not even going to mention more distant future). At the moment it is roughly half a thousand years ahead of humanity's current level (that is subject to change, however), and already it includes a few phenomena incomprehensible for our minds. Actually, I always thought that applying time scale of biological evolution to a technological civilization creates most improbable scenarios. This is only my opinion, however.

Of course, in theory — and in a hypothetical future — it is perfectly possible. I just wanted to specify that not every nomadic starship is a weapon of mass destruction by default.

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Vumpalouska In reply to ChatlaninKyr [2018-04-16 20:50:15 +0000 UTC]

I'm interested in this topic because like you, I really like worldbuilding. I'm a bit paranoid about the potential applications of any fictional technologies given the right circumstances. This is why I always try to look for loopholes to exploit fictional technologies to completely wreck the universe they exist in.

(My own fictional universe, set about 1400 years in the future, does include a very advanced nomadic culture. Despite the setting being pretty heavily skewed in system-bound civilizations' favor, the nomadic civilization was able to fight a very successful war against a system-bound civilization by taking advantage of the distances and timescales involved in interstellar space travel, as well as their own lack of stationary targets that could be destroyed in retaliation. They would love to have something like the arrival effect at their disposal, and would likely use it to rule over - or simply wipe out - everyone else.)

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ChatlaninKyr In reply to Vumpalouska [2018-04-20 20:38:12 +0000 UTC]

Pointing out loopholes, logical inconsistencies and "misapplied phlebotinum" is perfectly understandable, and I do appreciate people giving my concepts thought and making critical comments   However, I admit I was a bit taken aback by the firm tone of some of your statements (when I bring forth what I see as potential problems of others' fictional universes, I usually try to do it more tentatively; or so I myself think, at least).

Regarding the nomadic civilization argument, if you are interested, I can elaborate on two specific aspects which... well, not eliminate, but at least considerably affect this sort of problem in my setting. The first one is fuel for FTL drives, and the second is the aforementioned type II FTL — the jump drive — which is about as different from the warp drive as the warp drive itself is different from conventional propulsion (that said, it is depressingly unscientific).

Yes, I looked through your gallery earlier, and suspected you had the Outsiders in mind during this conversation. 1400 years in the future means your setting (may I ask if it has a name?) must be much more advanced than Initial Stage, although the comparison is largely imperfect. And I noticed that it actually took the Outsiders several centuries to become a force to be reckoned with.

Regarding the planetary/nomadic argument, there is a logical question: wouldn't a planetary civilization be able to divert more resources to expansion, mass-production, economic development and scientific advancements, than nomads? Wouldn't the latter always need more resources just to keep their mobile habitats running? Wouldn't their numbers always be orders of magnitude lower than planet-dwellers? And wouldn't that, in turn, mean that the nomadic community, to put it simply, will produce less bright minds to lead the civilization forward?

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Vumpalouska In reply to ChatlaninKyr [2018-04-20 21:48:50 +0000 UTC]

Planetary civilizations do indeed seem to have the advantage, at least initially (though there are many variables to take into account in a science fictional setting - for example, in a mostly post-scarcity society with extremely high levels of automation, which one is ultimately more efficient in developing new technology and coordinating itself: a large, decentralized society with many political interest groups and competing needs, or a small but very dedicated group made of cutting-edge specialists?).

However, all the advantages of planetary civilizations may become moot in a setting that allows completely unstoppable, extremely destructive FTL weapons. In such case, the only deciding factor may ultimately be, "who has the guts/foresight/means to do it first?" A nomadic arrival effect -weapon utilizing civilization might be far less advanced than the planetary civilizations under its yoke, but since the nomads could, at any time and with absolutely no risk to themselves, wipe out any planet-bound civilization, there's very little the planet-bound civilizations could do to defend themselves. It'd be a situation of barbarians ruling over much more advanced but ultimately powerless vassals. If you're familiar with Larry Niven's work, he intentionally created a somehwat similiar situation as part of the backstory of his Known Space universe by giving a dumb, unintellectual and otherwise unremarkable species called the Thrintun completely irresistible psychic powers. Eventually, the Thrintun ended up controlling countless of slave species, most of which were smarter and more technologically advanced than the Thrintun.

Do not take anything what I've said as a criticism of your work - I find the ideas behind the arrival effect and the FTL methods you've introduced most fascinating. That's why I brought up the whole issue. I wanted to point out certain inevitable possibilities allowed by such tech and discuss whether or not the outcomes I predicted could be avoided in your setting. (Depending on your long-term plans for your setting, it might be an interesting twist to have, at some point, the denizens of your universe deal with arrival effect weapons launched by decentralized groups with no stationary targets of their own - or just the possibility of such groups emerging in the future.)

My own setting doesn't have any "official" name. So far it's just a loose collection of ideas I've had and a couple of simple comic stories. One of the central themes of my setting is that technological advancement has the potential to *completely* change some very fundamental aspects of what we think of as civilizations. The Outsiders are supposed to be one example of such change - despite lacking the raw industrial and population base of their opponents, they could inflict horrible losses on their enemies with little risk to themselves simply because they could retreat and disappear in interstellar space when things got too dangerous. And because of life extension technologies, they can afford to be very, very patient when planning their attacks. (Though so can their enemies.)

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ChatlaninKyr In reply to Vumpalouska [2018-04-22 14:57:24 +0000 UTC]

That is subject to argument. Coordination is certainly good when working towards some ultimate goal, or when scientific research is focused on a certain field or a few fields; but does it have as much benefit when applied to scientific progress in general? It might be enough to ensure free access to all research results, let scientists choose their subjects of inquiry — and the society will advance perfectly well on its own. And competition, as long as it's healthy, can provide great motivation and prompt optimization — although, of course, it costs some resources on its own. So I guess the end the result of planetary/nomadic argument depends mostly on author's decision and specific rules of the setting.

Yes, I've read World of Ptavvs. And I remember that eventually Thrintun's slaves outsmarted them and revolted, which led to the extinction of all sentient species of that time. (Also, I must confess, although I can't deny ingenuity of Niven's ideas and his unquestionable competence when it comes to science-based fictional concepts, his sophont species always seemed disappointingly one-dimensional to me.)

All the long-term plans I might have for my setting are limited by its "present day" and preceding historical time. There will be no exploration of its further history, aside from predictions and guesses of its current inhabitants. Now that you've pointed out this particular problem, it will, of course, be added to the list of dangers to come — somewhat like the possibility of terrorist organisations getting hands on nuclear weapons is a potential danger IRL. You may be interested to know, however, that this discussion actually helped me to discover yet another weak point in the mutual deterrence logic of arrival effect warfare, and also one promising, although imperfect way of protection against incoming particle stream (again, hardly possible at the setting's current technological level).

I remember the article about interstellar war on Project Rho bringing up an interesting idea for civilization-scale mass destruction weapon: relativistic gas cloud several times the size of a planet. It is essentially similar in effect to Alcubierre drive energy build-up, with the sole difference that you can see it coming for some time before it strikes. But then, the question in the article was, even if you could, how exactly do you counter it? Technology of your setting seems to be capable of such attack, so I wonder if the Outsiders could use it against their planet-bound adversaries.

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Vumpalouska In reply to ChatlaninKyr [2018-04-22 19:28:46 +0000 UTC]

Hah, glad to hear that this discussion provided you with new ideas. That's the thing I like about science fiction - big sciencey ideas and lots of speculation about how they might be used under specific circumstances.

Hmm, I don't think even the Outsiders could wield such star system sterilizing weapons, at least not without very extensive and time-consuming mega engineering projects (though who knows - maybe they are building some kind of gigantic particle cannon in interstellar space, expected to finish construction in a couple of centuries). My outline for the "Fifty Years War" that features heavily in the backstory of my 'verse did include the use of relativistic impactors, however, launched from interstellar space and timed to hit their targets just before the FTL ships of an Outsider invasion fleet arrived to the system.

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ChatlaninKyr In reply to Vumpalouska [2018-04-28 16:25:15 +0000 UTC]

Relativistic impactors certainly are a proven concept for fictional interstellar warfare. They seem to be relatively easy to destroy if you detect them, though, — just throw enough matter on the intercept course. The logical option would be to launch enough projectiles to saturate defence systems, but then in the first place accelerating them to relativistic velocities is probably rather costly (unless your FTL can make it easier somehow).

Regarding the relativistic gas clouds, I actually thought up something that looks like a possible solution, to my modest knowledge. Take this concept of RAIR : it uses ultraviolet lasers to ionize interstellar hydrogen, to be able to gather it. So, why not try to ionize incoming cloud of particles with giant defensive lasers, and then deflect it with ramscoop-like magnetic field?

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Vumpalouska In reply to ChatlaninKyr [2018-05-03 19:01:57 +0000 UTC]

I'm generally very paranoid about FTL abuse, which is why I have a very specific set of rules for my "quantum bubble drive" (essentially a hyperdrive that always moves at 180 c and can't work inside stellar gravity wells, forcing ships to resort to interplanetary travel while in-system).

My outline for the Outsider invasion had them planning their attack for decades before finally executing it, first by seeding the Oort cloud of the target system with automated, self-replicating Von Neumann warships and then timing the arrival of their relativistic impactors to when the defenders were busy dealing with the first, purely diversional attack by the automated ships, only THEN followed by the arrival of the proper invasion fleet.

Invading a well-fortified star system would likely be a very, very hard undertaking for a faction of roughly equal technological advancement, at least if the defenders had a chance of detecting the incoming attack beforehand. But no defense plan is completely fool-proof.

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WorldBuildersInc [2017-05-25 13:38:48 +0000 UTC]

I love this concept through and through. It's absolutely brilliant, as per usual. you've really got a knack for working out interstellar politics!
I also liked your quip at the end about the Asitheyokths being generic sophonts

Remind me how the interstellar community negates the shockwave effect of warp travel? I believe we discussed it before but I can't recall.

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ChatlaninKyr In reply to WorldBuildersInc [2017-05-26 17:28:41 +0000 UTC]

Thank you very much

Well, it's just logical. I mean, how else could a generic sophont look like? A being with radial symmetry? Or something that evolved manipulating limbs from legs? Or a creature that perceives its surroundings through echolocation? Of course, there are several examples of sentient species with these traits, but who would even theoretically think of them as generic ?

As I wrote in one of the comments below, I simply postulated the existence of another type of FTL for interstellar travel. The warp drive is currently used only for in-system jumps and accumulates too small amount of particles to be dangerous (although it still can damage sensors or unprotected spacecraft's electronics). For the details you can check the note I sent at 24.09.16.

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JiliTheSpaceboy [2017-05-14 15:25:43 +0000 UTC]

This is awesome. Even I don't really like the concept of FTL, this story is a great use of FTL theories to create scenario.

Most people don't like science to get into their way. This is why hard SF is so rare. However, some stories, like Larry Niven's Ringworld and yours, actually take the consequence of using the technology it have to create an entirely new, exciting scenario.

Thank you for sticking to science!

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ChatlaninKyr In reply to JiliTheSpaceboy [2017-05-14 18:42:48 +0000 UTC]

And thank you for the kind words

Well, I don't think one can create a space opera without FTL, it's kind of a genre requirement. And I have to admit there's a second type of FTL drive which is much less science-based, as well as instant FTL communication (the Asitheyokths just haven't invented it at the time of the story). Aside from these three technologies, I try to keep this fictional universe as scientifically accurate as possible. Corrections and suggestions are welcome.

I wouldn't dare to compare my little project to such classics as Ringworld  However, in terms of scientific realism I prefer Niven's Footfall. Ringworld still have some speculative aspects; in particular, the concept of luck as a force of nature sounds strange, at least in my opinion.

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JiliTheSpaceboy In reply to ChatlaninKyr [2017-05-15 02:44:03 +0000 UTC]

Who said you need FTL for space opera?

www.orionsarm.com/ Here you go. 'Space opera', no literal FTL.

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ChatlaninKyr In reply to JiliTheSpaceboy [2017-05-15 19:46:35 +0000 UTC]

It appears that Orion's arm (as I learned to my own surprize) has traversable wormholes . But if by "literal" you mean moving faster than light in normal space, then there's no "literal" FTL among the technologies I mentioned as well.

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JiliTheSpaceboy In reply to ChatlaninKyr [2017-05-16 03:25:28 +0000 UTC]

Well, I guess those metric (Alcubierre) drives also belong to the 'non-literal FTL', right?

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ChatlaninKyr In reply to JiliTheSpaceboy [2017-05-16 18:00:30 +0000 UTC]

According to Wikipedia: "Objects cannot accelerate to the speed of light within normal spacetime; instead, the Alcubierre drive shifts space around an object so that the object would arrive at its destination faster than light would in normal space without breaking any physical laws."
The warp drive in my setting is meant to be a further development of Alcubierre's concept. Second-generation FTL doesn't actually "travel" through any space, normal or warped, at all. Pairs of instant point-to-point communicators (based on somewhat overused quantum entanglement principle) are manufactured together and then sent to different locations to provide link between them.

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JiliTheSpaceboy In reply to ChatlaninKyr [2017-05-17 01:27:40 +0000 UTC]

I see. Thanks.

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ChatlaninKyr In reply to JiliTheSpaceboy [2017-05-17 19:20:20 +0000 UTC]

Welcome.

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CrossDevice [2017-05-13 17:28:38 +0000 UTC]

Now FTL drives in my universe tend to create shockwaves on arrival... but nowhere near strong enough to wipe out half a planet .__.

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ChatlaninKyr In reply to CrossDevice [2017-05-13 21:38:55 +0000 UTC]

The research paper phrases it like "any people at the destination would be gamma ray and high energy particle blasted into oblivion", so I'm not really sure if the effect I described is weaker or stronger than the "realistic" version. The original idea was that a shockwave could vaporize entire planet, but then it was discarded as being unreasonably over-the-top... That said, the damaging effect depends on the distance travelled in warp mode, thus, theoretically it's still possible to vaporize a planet, it's just too costly and completely unnecessary.
At the present time in the setting warp drive is used only for in-system jumps and accumulates too small amount of particles to be dangerous (although it still can damage sensors or unprotected spacecraft's electronics). There's another, more advanced (at least in some aspects), cheaper and safer type of FTL for interstellar travel, which is responsible for the cost reduction after the contact with the galactic community mentioned in the description.

If I remember correctly, FTL travel system of your universe consists of interstellar gates, long-range and short-range in-system jumps? I suppose only the last two produce shockwaves?

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CrossDevice In reply to ChatlaninKyr [2017-05-15 02:53:07 +0000 UTC]

I see~, Its certainly an interesting danger to add to a setting.

Yeah thats pretty much true. I figure the shockwave would only happen in atmosphere and would be mostly tied to the ships mass. 

I imagine it could be weaponized, but for the most part, only reptid ships would be precise enough to use it without accidentally warping into the ground or something

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ChatlaninKyr In reply to CrossDevice [2017-05-15 20:31:37 +0000 UTC]

Thanks
Works as a limiting factor as well. There's a notable lack of militaristic expansionists in I.S. universe due to the fact that even less significant political powers can afford a couple of starships with long-range warp drives.

Well, in this case it looks more like a typical atmospheric shock wave from an extremely fast-moving object than a specific side effect of FTL jump.
There's one question that came to mind: what if a spaceship jumps from atmosphere? I guess weaponized retreat is a thing many commanders would really appreciate

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CrossDevice In reply to ChatlaninKyr [2017-05-15 23:16:02 +0000 UTC]

That makes sense! Don't cause problems, our we might erase your home planet from existence

In that case I picture it creating a reverse shockwave, still quite usable!

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ChatlaninKyr In reply to CrossDevice [2017-05-16 18:44:01 +0000 UTC]

Yes, more or less like that.

Well, this gives your FTL drives at least one unconventional application as well

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CrossDevice In reply to ChatlaninKyr [2017-05-16 22:48:31 +0000 UTC]

ANother thing I've randomly started considering is mechs. 

I figure tanks will still be the go to heavy ground vehicle, but mechs would have an advantage in mobility.

Their complex moving parts probably reduces the amount of armor they can pack, but being able to attack from unexpect positions, or just reposition quickly regardless of terrain would make them nasty assault vehicles all the same

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ChatlaninKyr In reply to CrossDevice [2017-05-17 20:39:18 +0000 UTC]

Randomly indeed  I don't mind to discuss it though.

I think what you said mostly sums up the general idea of combat mechs. Details, however, will probably depend on the aspects of setting's technology.

Regarding advantage in mobility at the expense of armor, there's one more type of vehicle that comes to mind: hovering craft. Personally, I think that mechs are most useful when they're relatively small so that: 1) they can enter confined spaces inaccessible for vehicles with larger frame; 2) as you said, they can use truly unexpected positions to attack from; 3) small size generally equals higher manoeuvrability in combat. After exceeding certain size limits, all properties of a mech can probably be replicated in a hovercraft. And if a hovercraft can switch between stationary hovering with omnidirectional movement and ekranoplan/GEV mode, it'll far surpass any mech in speed and operational range. However, it'll never look as cool, not even close.

Now, there's another random thought: would a four-legged sentient species consider building two-legged mechs?

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CrossDevice In reply to ChatlaninKyr [2017-05-17 23:18:27 +0000 UTC]

XD, Well one advantage I picture mechs having is in urban and mountainous terrain, where they might be able to cling to buildings/cliffs for better firing positions. I figure the difference is a mech might have more control over its acceleration, which might make it more advantageous in relatively cramped areas.

I picture where speed and range are absolutely necessary, URW will likely resort to aircraft instead. 

Current concept for reptid ground forces is that most (if not all) of their ground vehicles are hovercrafts. They usually carry fixed direction (except for elevation control) main guns, who needs turrets when you can turn that quickly, right? Inversely I imagine reptids using the slower more heavily armed/armored mechs. I see the reptid hovers has relying on energy shields mainly for protection and thus having to leave battle for moments to give them time to regenerate... probably not the best for keeping up pressure. I picture their mechs being designed for defensive operations, or for putting pressure on the enemy

static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub… I picture my mechs being between the 1st and 2nd in terms of size.

For the 'Mod'rn' the "Tall Aliens" equipped with power armor basically serve as their equivalent of mechs.

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ChatlaninKyr In reply to CrossDevice [2017-05-18 18:00:47 +0000 UTC]

Clinging to buildings and cliffs is one reason why I argued for small size. However, judging by that picture, your mechs are consistent with what I had in mind. They're probably near the upper limit, though; I can hardly imagine anything the size of Titan to be able to cling to a building (unless you're in one of Michael Bay's Transformers movies). I think in my universe mechs manufactured by bigger sophonts such as Ranadgs are about the same size as yours, and the majority are the size of Wolverine or smaller, depending on the species. Meanwhile, there are many hovercrafts the size of Titan or larger, although nowhere close to Mammoth II.

Well, GEV hovercraft vehicles, compared to "pure" aircrafts, are (predictably) less vulnerable against anti-air weapons and can use terrain to their advantage almost as effectively as ground vehicles.

By the way, if capability of an energy field depends on the vehicle's powerplant, I suppose Reptids' mechs will have stronger shields than hovercrafts of the same size anyway, since they won't need as much energy for propulsion.
That said, if Reptids live on spaceships, how often (and, in fact, for what reasons) do they need to engage in combat on planets' surface instead of bombing anything hostile from orbit?
 
Also, sorry, but I'm not sure I understand the phrase "For the 'Mod'rn'"

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CrossDevice In reply to ChatlaninKyr [2017-05-18 22:21:07 +0000 UTC]

XD The buildings in Transformers must be made of solid adamantium. 

I think the largest ground vehicle in my setting would be these massive six-legged artillery walkers that reptids built in the previous 'era' and were promptly found to be impractical. URW uses their semi modular corvette class ships as mobile bases sometimes.

Hovers definitely have some good advantages. For the issue of cover, I imagine most aircraft in the setting having some limited hovering/vtol ability.

Thats a good point, they definitely should be better at energy conservation.

Reptid ships usually have relatively short range energy weapons, which most of the time isn't a big disadvantage for them, considering their jump technology. Larger ships would probably have better bombardment weapons, but if URW is good at anything, its taking out large slow targets at long ranges, so the larger ships only tend to join the fray (against URW at least) in ambush positions.

Generally reptids will just jump into atmosphere and basically act as giant Close Air Support units. If they are going after a fortress or something, its likely they'll have to take out heavy defensive guns before they can do that. I also imagine that large area shield generators may be setup on large cities and facilities and render all but the largest weapons ineffective.

As to why they don't have many bombardment weapons.... I got nothing XD I mean, since throughout the 'story' they are mostly.

Ah, Mod'rn was the old name for the faction that almost wiped out Basurants. I haven't come up with a replacement name yet

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ChatlaninKyr In reply to CrossDevice [2017-05-20 19:27:19 +0000 UTC]

So do you have a drawing of this artillery walker? How exactly large is it?

By the way, I forgot if I asked this before, does your setting have antigravity technology? If yes, it'll probably affect capabilities of atmospheric flying vehicles.

It's interesting how the presence of energy shields affects combat strategies. In I.S. universe the general rule is "if you control the orbit, you control the surface". When the space around a planet is secured, invaders fill low orbit with specially designed orbit-to-surface missiles. These things look something like small versions of a D-SEND plane , they carry only a small amount of fuel and usually no payload. When a target on the surface needs to be destroyed, a missile makes a small burn to deorbit, glides through the atmosphere at hypersonic velocity and hits the target with several kilometers per second impact. The missiles are dirt cheap, usually deployed in thousands, they're hard to intercept, have meter-scale accuracy and correct their course in flight, which makes organized resistance with the use of any heavy firepower practically impossible.
Thus, the main purpose of surface military forces is to deal with local threats, like especially dangerous criminal/terrorist organizations, or — in case of war — sabotage groups. When space around the planet has been taken over by enemy, they're pretty much useless. Large-scale surface battles only happen in so-called peripheral systems, where a single planet can be divided between several warring factions, neither of which is able to support significant space military forces. I guess it's quite different from your universe, where planetary battles seem to be important part of warfare. 

> "...since throughout the 'story' they are mostly."
I have a vague feeling that the end of this sentence is missing. Either that, or I'm missing something again.

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CrossDevice In reply to ChatlaninKyr [2017-05-21 02:18:22 +0000 UTC]

I imagine they'd be around twice the size of Star War's AT-TEs. I have no drawings of them, but they were based on something a I made from bionicle and lego parts more than a decade ago.

Anti-Gravity tech does exist, at least currently. I'm not too sure about things, cause I've been kinda trying to redesign lots of things to get around problems that were bothering me. The idea is that while most factions have some anti-gravity tech, its mostly to improve performance by effectively reducing weight rather than completely countering it. CoS was supposed to be the faction with the best Anti-Grav tech, which most of their vehicles use to some effective

For shield generators I imagine two kinds, the 'regular' type, and forcefield projectors which can project far tougher, more stable barriers (and could probably be weaponized, because they are solid). The idea being the projectors are so powerful that most of the time, trying to brute force your way through the barrier is a waste of time, so taking out the projector tends to be the objective... I guess I could handwave "two projectors covering each other" loophole by saying they'd interfere with one another and become unstable.

Ah,  a Rod from God style concept? Yeah they'd be pretty much no way to counter something like that, outside of somehow scrambling the communication/targeting system. 

Yeah, I can't really think up much of a reason to prevent 'bomb everything from orbit' from being the prevailing strategy. 

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ChatlaninKyr In reply to CrossDevice [2017-05-22 18:07:01 +0000 UTC]

But there are reasons against orbital bombardment as a prevailing strategy in your own comment  "Regular" energy shields alone can make it considerably less effective, and ground military installations equipped with nearly unpenetrable forcefields would be pretty much invulnerable against long-range attacks. In addition, when surface-to orbit shipment is cheap due to antigravity, invaders would probably prefer settlements on the invaded planet to remain as intact as possible because of, well, looting.

Yes, that concept was inspired by Project Thor. Good point about electronic countermeasures; however, by the time this system is deployed, everything that can be used to effectively counter it is usually destroyed (like communication and observation satellites, large ground antennas and telescopes).

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CrossDevice In reply to ChatlaninKyr [2017-05-22 22:08:40 +0000 UTC]

I guess I was thinking if such large scale shields exist, why not deploy them elsewhere? Like a mobile fleet wide energy shield... then I realize... why not? Giant fleet protecting shield generators might be a thing, and likely would have to be countered by close ranged attacks from smaller ships, which would make space battles more interesting than "snipe enemy ships before you can actually see them."

Ah yes, the infrastructure thing is one I realized shortly after I posted the comment.

Another is, if Large anti-orbital guns exist, they'd likely be built into the ground and have a limited cone of fire, so getting closer to the planet would reduce the risk of being shot down by one.

Thats a good point, they'd be more a statement of "its over, give up." than an effort to win the war. Cuz likely you're already on the path to victory once you can start deploying them safely

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ChatlaninKyr In reply to CrossDevice [2017-05-24 17:34:21 +0000 UTC]

An interesting way to justify close-range space combat. Looks logical enough. But one thing I don't quite understand is the shape of the forcefield. Does it look like a wall facing particular direction, or is it a sphere around the generator?

Also, I wonder, can you use a forcefield as a footing instead of, say, landing struts?
...
And then can you use it to push off the ground, to create a vehicle which moves by jumping on the forcefield? (Yes, I realize how strange and stupid this concept is.)

Yes, that's the basic idea.

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CrossDevice In reply to ChatlaninKyr [2017-05-26 03:00:58 +0000 UTC]

Hmm, I dunno, I think they'd come in various shapes, with Wall and Sphere types being most common

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