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jimmyhook19202122 In reply to AlphamonOuryuuken [2020-03-21 01:16:13 +0000 UTC]

You know what I think ? You're nothing but a assfartball McGee who refuses to believe the truth.

BLOCK ME ALL YOU WANT! YOU WILL REGRET YOU OPINIONS ON HER ANYWAYS!!!!!!!!!!

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AlphamonOuryuuken In reply to rfcres [2020-03-20 17:18:22 +0000 UTC]

Too bad they refused to reform, that's their fault, not hers.

Here's the thing. It was Friendship that changed characters like Starlight or Tempest. Or rather seeing what true friendship is about that changed them. Cozy was literally taught that in the school. And since she was evil the whole time one would think she would change her mind and reform that way. But no, she actively went against everything that she was taught, fully knew the effect her actions had on others and took joy in all of it. Hell, she flat out said she'd do it again. So that kind of was her chance and Twilight and them did make an effort to get her to embrace the thing that helped so many others (which is why she created the school in the first place) They just didn't know it.

And need I mention she had another chance to change her ways in Frienemies? Where she actually knew how good it felt to actually be selfless and whatnot, the other two villains felt it too. But once again, they all willfully perished the thought because they view friendship as a "disease" despite knowing first hand how it really is.

So really what else is there to do? If the School of Friendship wouldn't get to her, what will? It's not that she didn't understand or was an innocent, she just didn't care. And no I don't think Tartarus or even stoning was too harsh. Because if she were in any other solitary confinement, she would've easily manipulated others to let her out because that's how she works

Bottom line, Cozy technically did get a second chance but she actively disregarded them because she'd rather have power and destroy things and people.

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rfcres In reply to AlphamonOuryuuken [2020-03-23 18:44:34 +0000 UTC]

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AlphamonOuryuuken In reply to rfcres [2020-03-24 05:08:26 +0000 UTC]

I'm not saying that Twilight couldn't have reformed them, or put in the effort. I'm saying that the three of them outright refused the idea. The difference between them and characters like Starlight and Discord are the factor that day at the very least showed some semblance of empathy for their actions. These three on the other hand? Even when they were depowered they made it clear that they were never going to stop trying to conquer Equestria. And even then turning them to Stone was a precaution the princesses took, not Twilight herself. And given the fact that they had a lot of rebuilding to do after the damages the trio did, do you really think she'd have the time and patience to deal with them at that moment? When does the past. Plus they almost ripped off Spikes wings...

Not to mention the fact that even if they were somewhat genuinely unified, in the final episodes they made it clear that they were just going to go back to rulling on their own when they won.

And a minor note on your idea that the school of friendship was futile, if it was then the student six never would have gotten together well enough to the point with the tree of Harmony actually chose them as secondary bearers of the elements. And given what we see in the epilogue, it's pretty clear that the school seems to have helped break down the barriers between Equestria and the other races.

You don't get the blame Twilight for "not doing enough" when she's done all she could for Equestria as a whole, holding the failed redemption of three jerks against her is beyond unfair. Plus, Chrysalis was given a second chance By Starlight, and she swatted it away. Tirek had his chance when his brother outright pleaded for him to change his mind about stealing Equestria's livelihood, and to this day he still considers his brother worthless for not going along with his plan. Twilight gave Cozy a chance to explain herself and was genuinely hurt and wanted to know why she would betray them. Cozy chose to gloat that she was never going to change and simply try the exact same thing elsewhere.

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rfcres In reply to AlphamonOuryuuken [2020-03-24 17:40:03 +0000 UTC]

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AlphamonOuryuuken In reply to rfcres [2020-03-25 02:08:09 +0000 UTC]

[For however brief their moment of clarity was, they actually have a one-up on those earlier villains.]

It would have been a wonder that they actually put further consideration into changing their ways. But they quickly drop kicked that idea into the garbage.

Plus, when they were planning on dominating Equestria, they made it clear that they were going to divide it and rule over the lands separately with the agreement that they'd never have to deal with each other again. So they didn't exactly learned that much from that one scenario either.

[You make an interesting comment about having no time to save souls due to collateral damage that had to be fixed. Wasn't this also Sunset Shimmer's situation in Equestria Girls? Canterlot in rubble is of course more than a school building, but it's not as if Twilight would have to fix everything on their own.]

Sunset was tasked with helping fix up the school AFTER she willingly gave changing her ways a shot. And Twilight was on a time limit so she couldn't stay any longer.

Besides, unlike the villain Trio, since it didn't spend her moments after her defeat ranting and rambling about how she would never change and that she would always come back to harm Equestria. She has a very least surrendered and got it through the thick skull that the way she was going about things was wrong.

The villain trio didn't even raise a white flag of surrender after they got their magic removed.

[She has three other alicorn princesses with her, in no way would it have been negligence of duty for Twilight to take time to redeem the villains—redeeming bad guys whenever possible is one of the defining duties of the Princess of Friendship.]

At the moment, it's pretty obvious that she wasn't inclined to give them another chance considering the fact that they already wasted there's and nearly ripped Spike's wings off.

[On the School of Friendship, it must first be pointed out that, curriculum-wise, the School was never responsible for the friendship between the Student 6.]

You literally just contradicted yourself. If that were the case then why did they get together and go on the adventure in the first place? All right, because they befriended each other at the school. A friendship that wouldn't have occurred if Twilight head and open the school to begin with. Since none of them had met before then.

And given the fact that even more races are shown integrating into the equestrian Society in the epilogue, it's pretty clear that the school has worked wonders since then.

[While I am accusing Twilight of negligence her of duty, it's understandable to argue that she has done enough.]

You don't get to accuse her of negligence of her Duty PERIOD.

She's saved the question in abundance of times with the help of her friend, successfully perform several other villains, and yet three jerks who refused to reform suddenly warrants reading her the riot act and claiming she's neglected her duties? That's both unfair and selfish and you know it.


[Rather, I'm explaining why Twilight is blaming herself in the form a nightmare.]

That's the equivalent of Luna blaming herself for Nightmare Moon. She was possessed by a separate entity that prayed off of her negative emotions, so that's not entirely her fault. Where's the Twilight, the princesses and the Discord decided their punishments after Twilight had successfully gone through the effort of depowering them and they made it clear that they were never going to change and keep returning to harm Equestria. Just because she feels guilty doesn't automatically mean the guilt is placed solely on her.


[Cozy and Chrysalis each got 1 chance—Cozy firmly revealing her misunderstanding and Chrysalis almost accepting it—I don't know why you are saying Chrysalis was offered one before To Where And Back Again.]

Cozy didn't misunderstand, she just wanted friendship for the wrong reason, to exploit it for her own Selfish nice. Chrysalis was offered a chance to change By Starlight and she swatted it away.

[I'll also count Tirek as being given a chance although this is based on a lot of speculation and has nothing to do with Twilight at all. I wouldn't base my moral policy on folklore. In any case: there were no second chances.]

Like I said before, they have their respective chances, but they threw them away in favor of wanting power for power's sake. They have no one to blame but themselves for that.

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rfcres In reply to AlphamonOuryuuken [2020-03-25 08:03:39 +0000 UTC]

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AlphamonOuryuuken In reply to rfcres [2020-03-25 15:21:08 +0000 UTC]

[Explain this: if Starlight Glimmer has already rejected an offer of friendship, and then manipulated space–time, sedning Twilight into several dystopian futures and was willing to tear the fabric of reality itself, what makes her any more "deserving" of redemption than these three of whom we know what their grievances are, and possibly how to tackle them?]

Empathy.

Starlight still showed she has SOME semblance of genuine remorse for her actions when it was shown just how bad she'd screw over Equestria.

The villain trio was perfectly ok with bringing complete ruination to Equestria and Chrysalis even planned to let the Windigos stay loose despite knowing what they'd do.


[This refutes nothing because we never know what would have happened to the villains had they not been condemned to eternal torment.]

They are in suspended animation.

Also, they made it clear they'd just try to take over again.


[It's not the Princess of Friendship's good heart that is responsible for kickstarting Sunset Shimmer's beautiful redemption arc, but the time limit on an interdimensional portal?]

What I meant was she didn't have the time to oversee Sunset making amends and tasked the humane six with watching over her.

[and I still don't know why you think it's fair for her to become a lead character if she was given a chance but rudely refused it and proceeded to almost destroy the world another time.]

I refer you to my above statement.

Plus, Starlight is one of the few villains in this series who genuinely thought she was in the right for certain amount of Time before Twilight opened her eyes. Most of the other villains were rainbow nuked into reformation. The villain trio still willingly remained dedicated to their evil ways even after said rainbow nuke.

[The reason they got together and went on and adventure was because they wanted to escape it. You are arguing that because the system failed and gave a good result on accident, it worked. No.]

Would they have gotten together at the school wasn't built? No. Therefore it technically work, just not in the way Twilight intended. And even afterwards she went out of her way to make sure the school was altered slightly so that things would work out better.

[Yes I do. I am holding her to the title and standards that she has proven herself to be capable of handling splendidly,]

The failings of three separate jerks don't automatically mean that she was negligent when they never gave friendship a chance and refused to reform.

[Nothing was stopping her then, and nothing is stopping her now.]

After the vilelness they displayed, what reason did she have to spare them the fate they earned?

[Let's break it down. Not to sound like Joker, but what do you get when you take three miserable individuals, put them together, talk further anger and revenge into them, and give them a machine gun to boot? Can you then blame them if they ignore a spark of goodness and later commit a massacre?]

And that's Twilight's fault HOW exactly?

If anything, they're lucky she isn't the vengeful type and didn't shatter their statues.

Then getting turned to stone wasn't her fault, even if she feels a small bit guilty for it. They're the ones who rejected the idea to reform, they are for that's their fault, not hers. Is this comic goes the way I think it doesn't those are you better be damn grateful and kiss her hoives when they get freed.

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rfcres In reply to AlphamonOuryuuken [2020-03-25 19:33:46 +0000 UTC]

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AlphamonOuryuuken In reply to rfcres [2020-03-26 00:10:52 +0000 UTC]

[It was only later that Starlight fortunately saw her actions in a manner that touched the empathy that was in her all along. This is why I don't believe in the game of "one/two/three offers of redemption and you're out", because the reasons for one's choices can be very well hidden.]

That would be the case of the villain Trio actually had legitimate reasons for their choices, yet as far as we know, they're just assholes who want power for power's sake.

[I'm reminded of Meghan McCarthy's saying that "there are no evil people, only hurt ones", which I fully stand behind. I will argue that it is an axiom that the show was built upon.]

Well that may be true, there are also hurt ones who just want to hurt everyone else and genuinely don't want to heal because hurting others to make themselves feel better.

[Given the right set of circumstances, anypony can be made to understand how others feel. And we know how the villains are hurt, and how they are misunderstanding, and how they got where they were during the show finale.]

Do we?

Tirek basically disowned his own brother just because he wouldn't steal ponies magic with him. Cozy used everyone for her own gain and couldn't care less about the consequences. Chrysalis is just a straight-up tired who wanted her subjects to remain permanently hungry just so she'd get all the power for herself...

What do we know about how the villains were hurt? Nothing.

[And just as an aside, Tirek and Cozy Glow didn't swear revenge, they were cowering in fear.]

Funny how they didn't actively disagree with Chrysalis, and they didn't even so much as raise the white flag and shout "We surrender! We'll go peacefully!"

[Of course not, because the rainbow nuke has no inherent power to redeem ponies. It humiliated Luna and Sunset so that they could be talked to,]

Actually it Purged the evil energy from their bodies and returned to them to normal.

[No, but anything else to which they were invited would have sufficed. The students proved they could simply become friends out of their own, they just needed to be in contact.]

Again, they wouldn't have been in contact under any other circumstances other than the school. Therefore they wouldn't have got together if the school hadn't been made. And before you say anything else would have sufficed, what could have possibly gotten them all together in one area. Let alone. And then to get along with each other at the school hadn't been created?

[Yes it does.]

No it does not, they chose to stay evil of their own accord. Twilight had no role to play in that. Stop blaming her for their actions.

[ None of the things leading up to this can be called her fault (she didn't know about it), but when the very individual who has incited their attack is the one to punish them, she really should have stepped in.]

After everything she's been through? I think she deserves a break to celebrate her victory. Plus, you literally just said that it was her fault by calling her negligent in the matter. By that logic she should have drag the shadow entity that possessed Stygian out of the portal to reform him as well.

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rfcres In reply to AlphamonOuryuuken [2020-03-26 18:27:59 +0000 UTC]

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AlphamonOuryuuken In reply to rfcres [2020-03-26 22:57:10 +0000 UTC]

[What are "legitimate" reasons anyway? Is being jealous of your sister a more legitimate reason to become an evil tyrant than being unable to win the approval of your father?]

Yes, mainly because Princess Luna was possessed by an outside entity and not completely in her right mind. Something that the elements fixed when they purified her.

[Compare this to Sunset Shimmer, whose motives are even shallower; in Celestia's words: "[Sunset] began her studies with me not long before Twilight. But when she did not get what she wanted as quickly as she liked, she turned cruel and dishonest. I tried to help her, but she eventually decided to abandon her studies and pursue her own path."]

And yet after she was rainbow nuked, she finally held up the white flag and acknowledged that she was in the wrong.


[You are putting a spin on the meaning of the quote. It means that evil people are doing bad things to others because they are trying to fill a hole.]

That doesn't make what I said less true. There are individuals out there who just want to hurt others just because it makes themselves feel better.


[I think the Changelings physiology is an especially nice metaphor for this: they eat love, but they stay hungry, indeed it keeps them starving and wanting to take more. But when they share love, they attain a beautiful, healthy form.]

Here's the thing, Chrysalis didn't want that. She wanted her Hive to remain starved so they would want to take more, most of which would go to her. Hence she only wanted them to remain stopped so she could remain at the top of the totem pole.

"Do we?" Yes we do, I've explained this in my original post. Also see the points above. What you say about Chrysalis is completely wrong. Consider her words in A Canterlot Wedding: "And as queen of the changelings, it is up to me to find food for my subjects. Equestria has more love than any place I've ever encountered. My fellow changelings will be able to devour so much of it that we will gain more power than we have ever dreamed of!" She was going about it the wrong way—she didn't see that sharing love was the only way to stay nourished—but she did care for her Hive. The sentiment is repeated in To Where And Back Again. All of her conquests are in the interest of her children, one might call the impetus to survive an actual "legitimate reason".]

It would be legitimate if she didn't automatically contradict herself by claiming that most of the power went to her.

And I have that stands above, her claiming that she was doing it for a subject can be seen as just an excuse. Especially considering the fact that I even after all of her children were shown to have embraced a better way of consuming love, she was still against the idea and wanted to go back to the old ways. If she truly wanted what was best for her Hive, she would have been embraced it as well. But she didn't, because she was selfish.

[Really, only Cozy Glow doesn't have a hint of a backstory; she's just a super intelligent filly who understood the superficial aspects of friendship but failed to see the bigger picture. We didn't hear Starlight's sob story until at the very end, so we cannot take absence of evidence as evidence of absence, especially not if we are talking about the life of a ~10 year old child.]

There is evidence of her being rotten from the start however, she willingly Allied herself with tear and just to remove all the magic from Equestria.


Of all of the objections that can be raised against this, it suffices to say that it didn't do that to Princess Luna when she first turned into Nightmare Moon in the flashback of the S4 opener.

That can be attributed to the fact that the elements word that full-strength. Remember, better than both Celestia and Luna were the ones who had power over the elements, Luna was corrupted so Celestia had to use all six by herself, the absence of one of their wielders could have had something to do with the elements only being capable of banishing her to the Moon instead of completely purifying her.

When she came back and the elements had choosen new bearers, they were at full strength and were able to purify her in one shot.

[And Granny Smith wouldn't have never dared to swim if Flim & Flam didn't give her the placebo tonic, yet we are not crediting them for that.]

That's completely different scenario, mainly because they were actually swindling individuals and their intent came from a motive of greed. Twilight on the other hand was motivated to help others by creating the school, so this isn't the same thing.

[So regardless of the pretense under which they would have come over, be it a school, a boot camp or even a roller skate disco: they would have become friends. It was the result of common social interaction, nothing more.]

Once again, you don't know that. Exactly why and how would they have ever interacted with each other outside of their homelands without the school actually being set up? That's a simple question that you still have refrained from answering.

And here's the answer, they wouldn't. Smolder sure as heck didn't even want to be there and only showed interest in staying after she befriended.

Stop pretending that the school was objectively worthless in the grand scheme of things. It wasn't.

[You are confusing blame for how the villains became evil (which clearly isn't Twilight's, she didn't know what kind of insane shit Discord would pull) with blame for not trying to redeem them when the opportunity was there (which it is, and the reasons for me saying so I have now repeated many times).]

And those reasons are false at best. The opportunity wasn't there because by that point they'd proven they had no intention of changing.

What was she supposed to do, suddenly jump in front of the princesses and ask them to let her reform them after everything they've pulled? Chrysalis would have zapped her in the back in a millisecond just to get a free shot at her and you know it.

Stop blaming her for not reforming them when they chose not to be reformed in the first place.

[It's literally a husk of black magic, not a live being. This is ridiculous.]

It's sentient isn't it? It's capable of independent thought isn't it? If you're going to get on Twilight's case for not reforming them after the stunt they pulled, why not this thing?

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rfcres In reply to AlphamonOuryuuken [2020-03-27 16:39:08 +0000 UTC]

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AlphamonOuryuuken In reply to rfcres [2020-03-27 19:42:35 +0000 UTC]

[She was consumed by anger but it was still her own doing]

No it wasn't, likee I said, it was an outside entity that had more to do with it. Case in point, the fact that the comics introduced Nightmare Rarity. And the fact that Twilight herself refer to Luna and Nightmare Moon as separate individuals.

[Recall that this is a response to me saying it doesn't matter how many redemptions are refused, what matters is that there is a reason for one's acting so. You argued that this only makes sense if such reason can be found. I've proven it exists, and now instead of arguing the cause you've gone back to arguing the outcomes.]

What reasons did you prove exist from the three? Aside from an exclamation from Chrysalis that can be deduced as a simple lie? None.

[Even humiliation didn't have priority over the need to feed her race in her speech. The Changelings are her children, after all, she is not making them suffer on purpose.

Yes, she was:

Here's a quote from To Where And Back Again:

(Chrysalis: By replacing the most beloved figures in Equestria, my drones will be able to store all the love meant for them, and return it here to me!)

Funny how she only specified herself.

Plus, trying to kill Thorax didn't exactly win her any points. You said it yourself, the changelings are her children, so she straight-up tried to murder her son.

[Chrysalis is just as love-starved as her children are, if not more so. If she knew that becoming good would stop the craving then surely she would chosen that over making her own children suffer.]

Thorax revealed that she he was no longer starved for love when he chose a different way, and she tried to kill him.

And after all was said and done, when her children were revealed to have a better way of life than what she chose, she still refused to reform. Further proof of how selfish she was.

Plus, even though the changelings were thriving oh, she was perfectly okay with trying to revert everything back to the way things were. To the point where she was willing to let the windigos stay loose.

[We didn't know at the time she had a sad backstory. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.]

The difference is that totally going to the exact consequences of what was going to happen, Starlight didn't.

What evidence do you have of Cozy not knowing better? None.

[The Elements of Harmony defeated Nightmare Moon's laser in a tug-of-war, incinerated her in a blazing rainbow, transported her to the moon and sealed her there for a thousand years. They were working at full power I reckon.]

If they were working at full power they would have purified her in one shot.


[The intent is different but the accidental mechanism is the same.]

No it isn't, they were only swindling people just to get rich and promised results that were false. Granny being able to do what she did with a happy coincidence at best.

Twilight on the other hand founded the school out of genuine desire to help others. and the school existing in general resulted in the sticks coming together, and she went out of her way to improve it when certain ways didn't work. She didn't simply do it to scam others. So no, it's not the same, stop pretending it isn't stop complaining about the school's existence.

[If there was only the excuse to get them together, then they would have became friends, that's what I'm saying.]

You're avoiding the question, how, could, they, meat, if, they, didn't, even, though, too, the, school?

[You need to prove that the School is responsible for this.]

I already have. Twilight built the school, they went there, they bonded together. It may have been through different means, but now that would have happened if they hadn't gone there in the first place. End of story.

The school deserves to exist and had a purpose. Get over it and stop whining about how much you hate it.

[It's the same scenario as To Where And Back Again, where the whole cast was ready to whoop Chrysalis's bug ass but Starlight Glimmer intervened, which almost worked.]

She didn't really intervene, she just tried talking to her while everyone else stared her down. No one made a move to blast her.

[She couldn't even have escaped if she tried.]

You avoided the question, what was Twilight supposed to do after everything was said and done? Jump in front of them and suddenly ask the princesses to spare them? Or rather, what reason would she have to do so when it was clear they weren't going to change it almost ripped Spike's Wings off out of spite? And don't go bring up Starlight again unless you could actually answer that.

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rfcres In reply to AlphamonOuryuuken [2020-03-27 21:01:04 +0000 UTC]

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AlphamonOuryuuken In reply to rfcres [2020-03-28 00:06:25 +0000 UTC]

[Look to earlier comments. I have done my part in trying to infer your posts charitably, I ask you to do the same.]

Tirek and Cozy don't really have any legit excuses that weren't completely made up.

[That's tragic but true. I'm not doubting there was a strong hivemind going on, i.e. acting in the best interest of the Hive as a whole, which involves punishing traitors. That's how she saw it, and she was wrong in that. She never learned the truth, sadly.]

She learned the truth when she saw the rest of her children turn into a thriving culture after learning to share love instead of take it. She just didn't care.

[She never understood that they got better from it or if she did she would have chosen for it herself because she was just as starved as her children if not more, which is what I was arguing in the first place.]

Care to explain how she was able to spy on the main five as well as witness one of her own changelings attending the school for friendship without succumbing to their hunger and somehow not put together the pieces that they were thriving instead of starving?

Like I said before, she learned the truth, she just didn't want to accept it.

[So it's guilty until proven innocent, then?]

That would imply Cozy Glow is innocent to begin with.

[Yet when Twilight uses her Element against Discord and the others don't cooperate, she doesn't even make a scratch.]

There was a difference in that scenario. Celestia and Luna used the elements together, Luna have three, and Celestia had three. So the elements were at half their strength when Nightmare Moon was banished.

The new Elements of Harmony wear 6 in total, only one of them was dead set on defeating him all the others were incapacitated.

[What if they knew that a little self-confidence and a lie was all it took? It may have been through, ahem, "different means", but it was successful. Except it still wasn't the tonic that was the cause of Granny Smith overcoming her fear.]

Dude, you're giving them more credit than it's worth just for the excuse of discrediting the school. Knock it off. You know darn well that they wouldn't care about that as long as I can make some Money.

By that logic they would have given everyone a refund when it turned out they were just selling some sour juice. Since otherwise they can be arrested for false advertisement.

[Later the School may have been effective at this, but at the time it manifestly was not. The Student 6 became friends all by themselves.]

Would they have come together at the school wasn't built? No.

The analogy doesn't work because the school was built out of a desire to help others, not Swindle them. And as time went on the school improved aspects of how it worked in order to properly help others. The snake oil salesman didn't approve anything and just rushed off with everyone's money.

Once again, the school was necessary. Stop whining about how much you hate it and deal with it.

[Angry faces. Charged horns on every unicorn and alicorn. Rainbow Dash has her "fists" up. Shining Armor is ready to charge in at her. They definitely would have attacked her.]

And yet no one did anything when she smacked away her husband ran away. Not even tossing her into a cage so she couldn't wreck havoc.

[I did answer it: she should have done as Starlight Glimmer did in To Where And Back Again.]

At what point did she even have a chance to do that? When Chrysalis was hollering about how they were going to keep coming back anyway?

[Spike's wings was a gruesome scene but so are the implications of your best friends (as well as the goddess–rulers of the land and a one-year old infant) being cocooned and siphoned until they have become a dry, lifeless, loveless carcass. It was not an unprecedented thing.]

So what? Just because it's happened before doesn't automatically mean no one should be pissed off at them for what they did.

[When the Princess of Friendship says "hold on, we don't have to turn them into garden ornaments, we can save them", the nation will understand.]

And what reason did Twilight have to actually put in that effort aside from "Princess of friendship"? What reason did those three give her to actually want to add the very least see them reformed? None.

Getting in the way of some well-deserved catharsis after the stunt they pulled would have been beyond inappropriate.

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rfcres In reply to AlphamonOuryuuken [2020-03-28 13:30:48 +0000 UTC]

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AlphamonOuryuuken In reply to rfcres [2020-03-28 14:16:35 +0000 UTC]

[If being abandoned by a childhood friend is a "legit excuse" to become a dictator and almost destroy reality itself, then so is being unable to win the approval of your father.]

Yeah, according to the comic Tirek didn't think highly of his father even before he started using dark magic. He just wanted power for power's sake. Nothing more. And that still doesn't explain Cozy either.

And once again, at the very least were able to show some semblance of empathy when they were formed, the villain Trio has no such excuse.

[She's gone practically mad by the time of The Mean Six. All in all, it makes more sense than her purposely enslaving her own children and lying when she had absolutely no reason to.]

She said absolutely no reason to try and murder her own son, and yet she did it anyway just because he tried to at the very least try to find a better way for his kind to live. She doesn't get to suddenly complain about her I've been brainwashed when the options within her hive we're "obey me and follow only my way a feeding or die".

And given the fact that in the comics we see, her casually sacrifice one of her kids to the volcano? Yeah, she doesn't care about her subjects as much as he lets on.
[Or are you rather saying that foals in Equestria can be born with Original Sin? I don't know which one is worse and I won't guess.]

I was referring to the fact that she straight up betrayed everyone in Equestria for no reason other than she wanted power.

Also there's the fact that she already confessed to doing so and being willing to do so again unless she was stopped. She has no excuse by this point.

[Whatever the true reason for this curiosity, whose explanation is ultimately speculation, your theory is still inconsistent with the fact that Discord didn't get purified after he was finally hit with the Elements and goes on to wreak havoc a third time, yet proves to be redeemable later after all.]

That's simple, unlike the other individuals that were faced, Discord himself as a spirit of chaos. Heck there was even an episode where he literally started to fade away unless he didn't cause some form of Chaos.

Chaos is pretty much tied into Discord's legitimate existence. The elements could not purify him of that, so they contained and restrained him instead.

[Now, please try to get me: I am not meaning to accuse Twilight of committing false advertisement. I'm merely arguing that if the School hadn't taught the Students anything yet, then, in this particular case and this one alone, the Students who became friends on their own accord, and the School cannot be credited as the means with which this was achieved.]

Once again, you have yet to directly explain how else they would have met up or became friends in the first place? Heck the Griffin, dragons, and the axe tend to keep to themselves, so how the heck would any of them have gone together unless that's cool with setup and extended the hoof of friendship to each of them.

Just because it had a rocky start doesn't automatically mean it's accomplishments are null and void in the long run. and as it was shown in the epilogue, many more individuals from outside of questions borders ended up attending the school. At least three of the former students were teaching there as well, so it's easy to deduce that they show their friendship to the school and want to help other students achieve the same camaraderie.

So for the final time; thee school was necessary and was responsible for their friendship, even if it wasn't in the way they intended at first, it still played a part.

[If Twilight pretended to be a rich Neigherian prince and lured them over with money to an Appleloosan square dancing / limbo festival in the middle of Froggy Bottom Bog, the Students still would have become friends.]

No they wouldn't, not only is that beyond stupid, but once the deception was revealed they'd pretty much break things off with each other, as well as end up not trusting ponies in general or believing that friendship was nothing but a sham.

[Besides, ponies became friends at Flim & Flam's Friendship University. Without said university, regardless of the means and intentions of their enterprise, some ponies would never have become friends. Just sayin'.]

Once again, different scenario, different intent. Plus there's the fact that they taught all the wrong lessons about how to make friends, and straight-up extorted others as well. Do we really actually see any genuine friendships made from that false University? Don't think so.

[But no "hollering" did stop Twilight from trying, o ye of little faith.]

Pretty hypocritical coming from you, considering the fact that you have a little faith in Twilight as a princess just because three jerks work performed. To the point where you have the audacity to call her out for "negligence".

And you're avoiding my other question, what reason did they give her to want to see them reformed aside from her being the princess of friendship? None.

[Well, that will wrap it up for me. I've had enough of your flopping about between excuses you cannot properly defend.]

That is adorable coming from someone who can only bring up a few what if's and maybes that barely hold the argument together.

You want to refuse to believe that those three proved irredeemable? Go ahead, but don't go around blaming only Twilight for not doing anything.

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StarBoltMLP In reply to rfcres [2020-03-16 01:37:45 +0000 UTC]

My opinion remains, and that will never change

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Stardust456 In reply to rfcres [2020-03-15 23:59:44 +0000 UTC]

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asdtroi8895 In reply to rfcres [2020-03-15 12:35:27 +0000 UTC]

This is all true.

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DrChrisman In reply to batmanwins [2020-03-15 19:09:02 +0000 UTC]

oh good I not the only one

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VectorVito In reply to batmanwins [2020-03-15 09:59:37 +0000 UTC]

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asdtroi8895 In reply to batmanwins [2020-03-15 01:36:42 +0000 UTC]

He did that to you to? Eh, don't even try talking to him. That guy is a brick wall of hipocrasy.

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batmanwins In reply to DrChrisman [2020-03-14 18:29:30 +0000 UTC]

At the very least, I wish people would stop pretending Discord was some sob story or misunderstood character. 
He wasn't. He was the worst of the worst. 

I always thought the moral behind Discord was supposed to be "anyone can change", but now he just represents a massive double standard.

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DrChrisman In reply to batmanwins [2020-04-01 17:57:45 +0000 UTC]

Have not hear anyone say that

His heart was in the right place when it came to Twilight but it was pretty messed up

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VectorVito In reply to batmanwins [2020-03-15 10:07:39 +0000 UTC]

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gruntman13 In reply to VectorVito [2020-03-15 21:32:00 +0000 UTC]

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nightshroud96 In reply to gruntman13 [2020-06-01 18:38:42 +0000 UTC]

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AlphamonOuryuuken In reply to Josedx9 [2020-03-14 15:18:44 +0000 UTC]

Well said dude.

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Stardust456 In reply to Josedx9 [2020-03-14 04:38:01 +0000 UTC]

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Josedx9 In reply to Stardust456 [2020-03-15 05:09:08 +0000 UTC]

Look, Cozy is by far the worst of the 3 villains, why? You may wonder, because she is the one who best knew the Mane6, the one who best knew everyone in town by having an interpersonal relationship with each of them while studying at the school of friendship, she knew that they were all of noble heart and yet she sent the Mane6 to the tartar and planned to leave them locked up there for all eternity. I repeat, she decided to literally send to hell the 6 ponies that saved her life and equestria more than 3 times; If she had a moment of redemption, if she had a chance to avoid everything she did it was then, it was at that moment, it is not known how much she suffered in the past, but she never noticed any trait of mental trauma, she was only blinded by power, it was A megalomaniac and it didn't matter who she killed for it. In the end when was confronted, she never showed any traces of repentance and even if it were shown, no one would believe her for her manipulative nature.
Tirek is someone else who was intrinsically evil, as soon as he reached equestria the first thing he sought to do was to leave a peaceful civilization like the ponies in misery and without being satisfied with it, destroy everything. A long time later he did the same again.
Tirek was another creature who only wanted power and also liked to destroy everything equally, he never showed want to change for good, in the chapter of frienemies although he showed a small trait of good change, he rejected it immediately along with chrysalis

Now, why did I highlight what Cozy did unlike the other villains that were reformed?
Because it happened under conditions in most cases; Nightmare Moon was "purified" by the elements of harmony, but not before being punished for 1,000 years on the moon. Luna was not intrinsically evil, she was dominated by her feelings of resentment and jealousy towards her sister but she did not seem to want to directly harm any other pony and her actions did not seem clearly premeditated.

Curiously, when Tirek was bathed by the "rainbow rays" of the tree of harmony, he was only "purified" in the sense of releasing all the magic that he absorbed, but did not change his common sense as happened with Luna.

Discord was punished 1000 years petrified for causing chaos and when he was released and did the same again, he was again punished indefinitely as a statue but it was because of conditions that gave him a second chance to redeem himself and despite acting in a rebellious manner and created disaster wherever he went, in the end by accepting forgiveness, he reversed his disasters.

Starlight Glimmer unlike the previous two was reformed of her own free will, she had the opportunity to break the parchment and cause a disaster in time, but in the end she repented and all the alternative futures that were created vanished and never happened.
She tempted against the friendship of the Mane6 but it was for a sense of revenge and at the same time with the idea of ​​being able to recover her people, since despite everything, they had taken away what she considered as her family. Even this was demonstrated when, upon returning to their town, everyone welcomed her with open arms.

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Stardust456 In reply to Josedx9 [2020-03-15 06:40:09 +0000 UTC]

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Josedx9 In reply to Stardust456 [2020-03-15 23:15:29 +0000 UTC]

seriously? You are telling me to spend a whole season (where the time is not specified but it is implied that she spent at least a year) learning about the history of Equestria, understanding the concept of friendship and relating to all the ponies and especially the Mane6 Is it irrelevant because the girl is a megalomaniac? Because she did learn about friendship, that's why her interpersonal relationships were successful, that's why she knew how to be so manipulative.
She demonstrated to have psychopathic and megalomaniac attitudes and for that reason she did not stop trying with Tirek and Chrysalis who did not fall for their attempts at "friendship"
No dude, I do not think that after having direct contact with the rescuers of her ass, knowing them thoroughly and still sending them to hell deserves a pardon soon.
In the end they were petrified until further notice, not big deal, in the future they may be released for better or for worse and you will have their new opportunity to change for good or repeat the same sins.

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Stardust456 In reply to Josedx9 [2020-03-15 23:56:06 +0000 UTC]

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Josedx9 In reply to Stardust456 [2020-03-17 00:41:42 +0000 UTC]

No one can have empathy with someone who, after knowing you deeply and pretending to be your friend, has literally sent you to hell with your family or friends, without even feeling sorry for their actions. Because that's what she literally did, send Mane6 to hell.

And yes, I understand you, she may have been too blinded by her megalomaniac ideas not to see that she was about to condemn the rescuers of her ass and equestria to hell for all eternity, but as I keep saying, she had a year (allegedly) to change her mind and she did not, always, everyone stops for a moment in life and reflects on what they are doing, it is in those moments that one becomes aware and makes their decisions.

and about what they "rescued" her because I suppose it's common sense, I mean let's imagine for a minute that I'm Cozy, I'm studying at the friendship school, I'm studying the history of Equestria, I'm studying how the Mane6 literally saved Equestria from Eternal Night, they saved Equestria from the invasion of the changelings, they saved Equestria from discord one of the most powerful creatures in the world and then turned him into an ally, they saved Equestria from Tirek who proved to want to destroy the whole nation then of absorbing the magic of all people (including me), of saving the Crystal Empire and avoiding a possible war and also turning the kingdom of dragons into allies, I don't know, here I could think for a moment "damn, they saved me my butt countless times" to later think "fuck it, I'll send them to hell anyway". I mean come on.
Regardless of her past, whether she suffered or not, there was no doubt that her life would be definitely worse as a slave and food for Chrysalis or being killed by tirek.
And as I said previously, Cozy never showed any trait that something had happened to her that made her what she is.

And about Discord I mentioned this a couple of times before, highlighting why he was forgiven, but I'll describe it more clearly:
Although Discord did what he did and no one agrees with what he did; He tried to help solve what provoked him, since he acted as a "human shield" along with Celestia and Luna to give Twilight time to escape and then later tried to distract the villains so that the others escaped, not to mention that moments before He explained that he did not want this to happen.
In other words Discord begged for forgiveness of the Mane6 and then showed that he was willing to sacrifice himself for the greater good.

Cozy never showed any desire to be forgiven and even in the end she tried to manipulate Tirek and Chrysalis to give her all the power of Discord and when they did, she tried to betray them.

And no, petrification is in fact one of the most "human" punishments they can give them, since they seal their minds and their bodies, they are not aware of the time they will spend petrified and Celestia and the Mane6 did not demonstrate that she wanted to free Discord from his Petrification soon, he was only released by conditions and he accepted those conditions.
Why was discord aware when he was petrified? Because it is one of the most powerful creatures in the world where its power is based on chaos, therefore it is able to remain conscious in a stone prison.
But neither Tirek nor Chrysalis will be able to maintain their consciousness since they were petrified in their weakest moments and Cozy being only a pegasus will not be aware of his stone prison either.
Why am I sure they won't be aware? Because Twilight in the first season was petrified by a cockatrice and when it was restored she did not remember what happened to her.
They are literally frozen in time, do not age or are conscious and in this state always open the possibility that they will be released for better or for worse.
in fact, petrifying them eventually ends up being a problem, as they become a latent threat to Equestria

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Stardust456 In reply to Josedx9 [2020-03-17 06:04:27 +0000 UTC]

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AlphamonOuryuuken In reply to Stardust456 [2020-03-14 15:19:32 +0000 UTC]

Like the guy said,   the reformed villains made it clear that they wanted to change. The other three had their chance but refused it. There's a difference.

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