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howlinghorse — Redline for Paperwings
Published: 2007-03-28 09:12:39 +0000 UTC; Views: 2138; Favourites: 32; Downloads: 16
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Description
A redline for ~0paperwings0
enjoyed doing this, would have continued and done some more if it wasn't already 1am!
ennnjoy!
Edit: IF this is a piaffe (and for the sake of ...sake I'm going to say it is), then this .gif is reaally helpful:
[link]
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Comments: 62
Oh wow it looks very nice but that wasn't much of just 'red lining' that was more 're-doing'
red lining is just fixing a thing or two like a placement of an eye or the way a leg looks, not re lining the whole thing to make it look nothing like original artists work. 
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well, all I really did was change placements
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i love this!!!!! its soooo unbelieveably helpful!!!!!
do you think.....ummm..... you could possibly do a redline for one of my realistic horse pics? *will completely understand if you say no 
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yeah, I can do that, if you give me a link to the pic you want!
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omg thanku SO SO MUCH!!!!!!
can u do this pic? [link]
thanku again!!!
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suuure thing 
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Hey, lol, I just drew a horse last night with the same exact pose (side was reversed, though).
Redlining looks interesting... it's amazing how such tiny changes can make a picture look completely different! The eye is a bit too high for me in this pic (*is guilty of the same exact thing*
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My only comment would be to bring the eye down a bit and dish the face slightly. Right now he's got a very extreme looking Roman nose, and the eye is just too high up on the head. Yeah....I'll go hide now.
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Wow, again, great work from both of you.
I'm not sure of the pasterns on either of them, but then again I really love the way pasterns take the weight of the horse and I tend to over-dramatize (akward word that one...) the mechanics. The supporting front leg on your redline is delicious. <3
Seeing the original and the redline side-by-side really shows how much difference to the overall appearance does just a few tiny changes have. These things are so educational, if I knew anatomy better and could draw proper lineart this would be what I'd do to practice.
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ah ok, that's two opinions on the low leg and two on the high..
I think I'm going to stick by my original though as this does seem to be from what I've been hearing, a not-very-good piaffe, maybe due to the horse being at liberty, because the back isn't even rounded and the head carriage etc. So I think the weight being too far forward would explain the hindleg. So my excuse for now until I get argued out of it will simply be that it's an UNUSUAL piaffe. It's funny to think now that before I started this I knew barely anything about the movement and now I'm beginnign to understand even the fine workings! I love how sharing things like this is so educational in ways you could never expect.
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Yes, the back reall does back up (uh...) the higher elevation of the hind leg. The position of the horse is a bit... well, let's just say uncoherent. On some parts it looks like the horse has good carriage and balance, others look like it's movements are "forced" by the rider. (We have an excellent saying in Finnish about this, I don't know what would be its English counterpart.)
I think the fact that there's so much to learn is the main attraction of these redlines *and* of dressage. After I've started riding western I'm really concious about these things and I do question a lot the modern dressage (not that I don't question western or classical, but mainly modern because that's where I started and personally I feel has the most "wrong-doers" strictly based on the fact that for every western rider there's at least six dressage riders and for every classical there's 10). It's amazing how good of a dressage rider I really am even though I hadn't ridden English style for years. The first time I went back to MD/ES (I expect to write "moder dressage" and "English style" kazillion times still, so this is also a cue for you to tune off
In a way, fear to do no justice to the way horses move is my biggest fear as an artist and the reason why I don't do full body shots. And I never seem to get round reading the books I bought like five years ago on the subject.
Sorry for the comment. I'm really flooding your message centre. 
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Uncoherent makes sense, and really it couldn't be any other way seeing as I didn't have a clue about the movement beforehand, hehe. I like to think I'm a little better informed now!
The saying about the movements being forced, I think there might be an english equivalent, it's not coming to me now though...
I agree so completely with all you say about there being so much to learn. Don't be afraid to do no justice to horses with drawing, because your passion will always show through even if you don't see it yourself. I'm going to be riding my youngsters for their first year under saddle this year, and so I expect I'll be learning a whole lot more about riding than I've known previously... I'm not really expecting to be doing any haute ecole with them, at least not yet, heh. But it truly is all just about understanding how they move, art and riding both... and there is ALWAYS more to learn
don't apologise for your comments, I'm very happy to recieve them!
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The only thing I don't like about your redline is the ears -- I think somewhere in between would have been good. Other than that I agree with the improvements. I personally would put a little more flexion in the pasterns that are bearing weight, but then that's just me.
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more flexion in the pasterns! hehe, I have an image of a horse with its ankles horizontal to the ground now. Ok, that's exaggerated - I do know what you mean, it would probably look better. That is the weight-bearing leg after all.
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As I think another already mentioned, the hind legs don't often come off the ground terribly high in the piaffe, primarily due to the fact that the haunch is so tucked under and the shift in weight has gone almost entirely onto the horse's haunch.
The hind leg should probably be a bit more under the body, or possibly display a more dynamic bend in the limb to emphasize the amount of weight being held there. (If you want a book that has some amazing photographs of dressage movements I reccomend "Training the Horse in Hand" by Alfons Dietz. Another good one is "The Bit and the Reins" by Gerhard Kapitzke [hurra for German and Austrian riders], which also has some good photographs as well as detailed information about bits, reins, and how to hold them. Both also have good information about working horses as well and the proper use of the lungeing cavesson.)
As another noted the fetlock joint probably should be bent. I know it isn't in the gif, but in pretty much every other image I've seen of one has the fetlock and pastern joints bent.
There are a couple other things the forearm (elbow-to-"knee") seems very thin and also a bit short, this should be remedied by drawing the elbow a little lower and further back. The gaskin also seems a bit thin in the redline. The right hind is still oddly placed, and I think if you were to draw out the main muscle groups of the thigh and gaskin you'll be able to figure a better placement for it.
I must say it's really awesome that you're willing to do this for people and it is a great benefit to those you're helping, as well as a good education for yourself. (On that note, if you ever feel the desire to redline any of my art, feel free! And on the reverse, if you ever want something redlined I'd be more than happy to oblige.)
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That fetlock could definitely be bent, I can see now - I'm awful awful awful at hoof and all surrounding joints. Gotta improoove.
I don't know a detailed amount about dressage movements. I'll keep an eye out for the books you mentioned.
I'm glad you mentioned the forearm because I've been mentally wrestling with it. I knew it was too 'straight' and thin, but indeed bringing the elbow back would make it more natural. Also, gah, I seem to have a horrible habit with gaskins, and they are constantly too thin. Actually I'd say that that part is my least favourite to draw. This redline's seems to come to a point! I hadn't noticed, so thanks again for pointing that out
Well... practice makes... better.
I'd love to redline something of yours if ever I'm feeling redliney and have none lined up. Unless you have a specific one in mind that is.
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They're really good books, and they've proved quite useful. You might also want to look up local horse shows that have dressage classes/tests and do some old-fashioned life studies (which often proves to be challenging, but rewarding as your subjects don't stand still!). And keep in mind that we have the Summer Olympics coming up next year, thus providing the opprotunity to record some amazing horses and riders in action.
I think one of the things that helped me with horse legs (apart from drawing them a lot) was going through an Equine Anatomy class (one of the community/junior colleges in my area offers an Equine Science degree), which really helped me better understand how the horse, and its legs are put together. If you have access to something like that, even though it's not a drawing class, I highly reccommend going through something like that as well.
Once school's out and I have time to do some more personal stuff, I'll definately take you up on that offer! (Of course, feel free to redline whatever strikes your fancy as I always appreciate input.) Aw, thankye, I still have my struggling points, though. You're most welcome, I enjoy helping out, and as you noted, redlines help both parties!
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I wouldn't know where to start looking for horse dressage shows in Cornwall, they're probably tiny at best. But it's an excellent idea, I'm definitely going to try! Life studying is one of my favourite things to do. I've never been to any kind of drawing class which is why I want to do a proper course at some point, I've a feeling I'd love it and learn a lot.
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Cornwall is a bit puny when it comes to higher level dressage as far as I've seen. But I've mostly looked for higher level western.
And I strongly suggest going to a course for dressage judges. I don't know how it works there, but here we have 1-2 day courses for people who either are judges and want to further/keep up their skills as well as for those who eventually want to judge dressage. Some of the courses are open for everybody. Ask from BritishDressage, if interested.
(When in a show, remind yourself that each judge is just a human being, he/she may not to notice everything and may give high points for horses that move entirely wrong or aren't even sound if the movement is flashy enough.)
And keep in mind that dressage is not the only equestrian sport that judges horses ability and way to move. F.ex. western riding and western trail judge gaits and form. Also classical dressage demonstrations are useful.
And why don't you get a pony out and show your skills?
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oh wow- thanks for the links. I'm seriously tempted, in fact I'm definitely going to try and get to a show. Think it'd be good for me to figure out this sort of stuff if I'm going to draw horses professionally or even ride my own... also it's just such an interesting+beautiful sport, like dancing, it hardly even seems to fit under the label sport. heh, but I'm rambling now. So, thanks once again for your advice and thoughts, I think I've learned more from this redline than any other anatomatical study I've ever done!
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Ok, I'll say just this (well, I try to keep it short at least
Seeing makes all the difference, it'll definitely improve every aspect in your life with horses. And I mean really seeing, not just watching/looking. 
And what you said about starting your youngsters, I'll tell you that your life will never be the same. Riding young horses teaches you so much, you can't believe how big of a difference there'll be in your riding! Good luck with them, I'm so envious that you have your own youngsters to ride and work with every day. Well, maybe 2011 I'll have one too.
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There might be a local Dressage association that you could look up or perhaps try to root out some clinics as well, which can be very helpful. If you know someone who does Dressage you could ask them if they'd mind you watching them train.
You have some excellent skills already and I thoroughly enjoy your art. Your sense of lighting and color harmony are pretty keen, but there's always room for improvement and the input of an instructor can be invaluable!
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... egads I can be tremendously long-winded.
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not at all - it's great to get such detailed replies!
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One big thing you missed is that the horse isn't on the bit properly. His head is raised thus he appears to be resisting the bit. I also like the back in the original better because it is appropriately 'round' for piaffe.
The anatomy overall is fine though 
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weell he IS performing at liberty... do you think the position of the head relating to a bit would still be relevant if there wasn't one?
Your points about the movement duly noted! I'm forever awed by how incredibly knowledgable people are around here. So it's technically correct for the legs to match? makes sense, that's what I'd have guessed.
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Weeeeell, in the real world horses don't really piaffe at liberty.
You're welcome
Yes, technically the action of the front legs should be matched by the hind, though, as I mentioned, the hind action is usually only half what the front is and there are plenty who only pick their hind legs up half an inch off the ground 
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I'm fairly sure horses DO piaffe at liberty naturally - I think I saw somewhere about stallions showing off in that way - and I know I've seen one do so under a natural horseman's handling. I guess with my inexperienced eyes, it could have been prancing in place in the wild horse's case, but it was a piaffe with the latter example
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They show off with passage, a very elevated trot, and while a horse at liberty may lose enough impulsion to trot in place, it is not a true piaffe by definition. I found one photo with a stallion at liberty in 'piaffe', but he looks like he's moving quite forward as well and even so, his head is in the correct 'on the bit' position
With the natural horseman, I don;t doubt it, but it probably wasn't a great example of it and probably wouldn't have scored well in the dressage arena either.
All dressage movements are modified versions of what stallions do in the wild, not necessarily exactly what they do.
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I just don't see how a horse having a rider can cause it to be able to do something it couldn't otherwise - obviously a rider can ASK it to, and show it how, but you can't make a horse do something it couldn't physically otherwise do just by putting a rider on, can you? Of course, I speak as a complete ignoramus when it comes to dressage, but that's what my common sense says.
(though I must say, I will always prefer the wild-horse movements to the classical dressage ones. Love dressage even though, especially drawing it. It's just fascinating)
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It's not that they can't do it in the wild, it's just that they wouldn't choose to. Horses, given a choice, would much rather drag themselves along on the forehand rather than rock back and use their hind end. Look at pictures of wild horses and you'll notice that most have very weak hind ends and are well developed under the neck from carrying their heads up in the air.
The problem with still photos is that a horse may appear to be doing one thing, but in reality doing another. In this case, it LOOKS like he's piaffing, but we can't tell which direction he was going to go next or how forward he was going.
Some horses do learn self carriage(staying on the bit without contact) but they usually wouldn't choose to do it if they were turned out.
Lol, I prefer to draw them running and bucking myself
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that sounds like a fact I should know - verry interesting, thank you!
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Hehe, you're welcome
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This is gorgeous!! 
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You made a good work
Yep, I think it is a piaffe, but that gif shows... um, a bit lazy piaffe 
I do a bit of dressage... but I'm not too good to do piaffe
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ah ok, I'm not very knowledgable about dressage really, just know the names of the movements. what is it exactly that makes it lazy?
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Well, it's hard for me to explain it in english
As I said, I know piaffe only in theory, but I saw, how the sportsmen do it.
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makes sense
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wow, You've understood me
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i cant draw
i like used no ref for the shading, and the only ref i had for the picture was a silhouette so it wasnt that helpful >.<
but this is much more helpful ^_^
taaaa
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working without references is a good way to improve
I'm glad I helped! You certainly helped me, I know more about dressage poses than ever before
And you can draw, this is a perfectly good drawing and I loved your hooves. I can't draw hoof-shapes that well at all.
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pfft i make the hoof shape up
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me too! Only mine are always wrong
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lol, should probably look into them at some point so i can learn how they are really meant to look .... pfft am too lazy XD
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I know nothing about piaffes and stuff, but the close foreleg is very lax...should it be drawn up?...Or is that my insanity?
And I agree the hooves in general are not uberful, worship-worthy, arts of awesome. Fantastic but not uberful, worship-worthy, arts of awesome
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My hooves are never like that
The main problem with the front foreleg is that the hoof isn't tucked under and it should be angled inwards a bit more. It's also too straight from the knee up. (in my redline at least) But I think its height is about right...those two factors probably make it look iffy.
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No, I mean the hoof--should it been draw up?
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if you mean angled further towards the body... then I think so, yep
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if its supposed to be piaffe, the leg was right as it was, as there is much more weight on the back, and the horse sits down more on his hocks, hope that helps
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