UndisclosedPerson In reply to UndisclosedPerson [2005-07-05 03:58:40 +0000 UTC]

Do I hear pretentious? In anyway, I've read it again, and I think it better than what I first said. I was just pissed off, because you're *known* when I don't think you deserve all this popularity. Maybe, on another day, I will think otherwise. Also, I said, "...you make it seem like you didn't put any time into this poem; give me a break," not, "...you say that it doesn't seem like I put any time into the poem." The difference: I said you made it seem like you didn't put any time into the poem, meaning you actually did put an unneeded too much time into this poem, but you wanted everyone to think otherwise, which is evident from your above statement: when you say that it doesn't seem like I put any time into the poem, I suspect that you have no idea what that looks like. Hey, as it went or goes, "What comes around, goes around; and, what goes around went." Or, in the words of an other: reaped their sowing and went their came.

sun moon stars rain

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Incandescent In reply to UndisclosedPerson [2005-06-14 19:21:48 +0000 UTC]

Well, as they love to remind people here, I wasn't the one that suggested this be a DD, though obviously I can't mind too much. Anyhow, with the way you've spun this, I think it's fair game to look at your work, and I find it hard to understand why you of all people would be criticizing me for being abstreuse. Really, different strokes for different folks, as where you say 'lacking substance,' I say 'beautifully succinct,' as I have no desire to be making massive word-collages that can be read into from every which-way. (As a sidenote, perhaps— not a particular fan of e.e. cummings.)

When you say that it doesn't seem like I put any time into the poem, I suspect that you have no idea what that looks like.

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Incandescent In reply to ashriel [2005-06-14 09:06:38 +0000 UTC]

Actually, I'm pretty sure the only thing I've edited is the separation of the "But I" line. Go figure.

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ashriel In reply to Incandescent [2005-06-14 11:47:22 +0000 UTC]

Maybe that's it then. I read it months ago, so it could be anything. My memory can be dodgy like that. Sowwy.

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GauzyDreams In reply to GauzyDreams [2005-06-14 22:19:08 +0000 UTC]

I wasn't being apologetic, only conversational.... I wonder if it a male/female point of view, the differences in how people experience lust? It has to be, to a certain extent... I suppose I shouldn't assume that I don't understand where you are coming from in the piece simply because you are a man

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Incandescent In reply to GauzyDreams [2005-06-26 10:26:17 +0000 UTC]

Ah, I missed this comment the first time around, but I'm getting back to it because it makes me think, and I like it when people make me think. And sometimes it's hard to tell when people are being conversational online...

But anyhow. Male vs. female. It's funny, I don't see myself as being romantic in a particularly masculine manner, you know? (Or just being very masculine in general.) So at first I wonder if you're applying the social paradigm of rationality = masculinity, but then without analyzing that, that makes me wonder where I fall in with that, because I don't feel I am a particularly rational person normally...
Well, I guess in the case of this poem, there was a bit going on behind the scenes, because (a) I was nervous and overanalyzing at the time and (b) I was dealing with a girl who was also putting on a rational front. So it's as if there was a dialogue being constructed that had little to do with what we were feeling, which itself was salient. I can't imagine this is too common. I mean, it seems like guys generally don't know what they feel, and are even less sure about how to say it, whereas here I knew exactly what I felt, and came to realize that there was nothing to say.

So. I guess I'm curious, if you get this message: is there something in there that you identify as particularly masculine? Perhaps the lack of waiting or passivity or what have you... but I wouldn't call the opposite feminine, either. I was going to ask what you would feel in a similar situation, but would you find yourself in that sort of situation in the first place? Or is something so basic as looking into someone's eyes something that can be interpreted a billion different ways? I wonder.

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GauzyDreams In reply to Incandescent [2005-06-26 16:57:29 +0000 UTC]

Your intelligence and your willingness to speak so openly with me gave me goosebumps that still haven't gone away, and it's been close to five minutes. *deep breath

Okay, I'm better now. I'll answer your questions in the order in which they were received:

is there something in there that you identify as particularly masculine?
I assume you are reffering to your poem as opposed to life in general (which was my first thought, self-absorbed woman that I am)... no, not specifically as such. My assumption that it was a male vs. female perspective issue was based on a) you being male and b) that I couldn't relate to your emotions. And, by "couldn't relate to" I simply mean that I've never felt that way before, never found myself in that kind of emotional situation. Which makes me wonder if it IS a male/female thing, because women are more prone to a higher level of emotion than men. I have seen this in my personal and family life, and have not had much experience with any men who are able to express their emotions on a level even close to what I'm used to expressing my own at. (I am, I should note, a HIGHLY EMOTIONAL person.)

would you find yourself in that sort of situation in the first place?
Because I don't relate to your emotions as they were put to paper, I'm not sure if I understand the situation you found yourself in. I have been nervous and overanalyzing; and (because I am a woman?) tend to voice these feelings to the point of babbling. I still feel like there is something I'm missing, something I'm blind to, when I read your piece. I understand the words but the picture isn't clear to me; like one of those "magic posters" that take shape if you stare at it long enough with your eyes crossed and your head cocked to one side. It's not a like vs. dislike of your writing, please believe me when I say that. I'm frustrated because I love to feel what I read, and I feel like I'm missing out on something phenomenal just because of my own emotional filters. *sigh

Or is something so basic as looking into someone's eyes something that can be interpreted a billion different ways?
It will always be that. The ability to do that is a core human trait, it's part of what sets us apart from the other fauna on this planet. You see the world with different colors and sounds and experiences than anyone else, as do I, as does each individual because of exactly that: we are individuals with different experiences that weigh and color our perceptions.

So, maybe it IS a male/female thing, and maybe it's an "individual human being" thing. I'm very impressed with you, regardless of my interpretation of your poetry. I like people who make me think, too.

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GauzyDreams In reply to Incandescent [2005-06-26 16:57:15 +0000 UTC]

Your intelligence and your willingness to speak so openly with me gave me goosebumps that still haven't gone away, and it's been close to five minutes. *deep breath

Okay, I'm better now. I'll answer your questions in the order in which they were received:

is there something in there that you identify as particularly masculine?
I assume you are reffering to your poem as opposed to life in general (which was my first thought, self-absorbed woman that I am)... no, not specifically as such. My assumption that it was a male vs. female perspective issue was based on a) you being male and b) that I couldn't relate to your emotions. And, by "couldn't relate to" I simply mean that I've never felt that way before, never found myself in that kind of emotional situation. Which makes me wonder if it IS a male/female thing, because women are more prone to a higher level of emotion than men. I have seen this in my personal and family life, and have not had much experience with any men who are able to express their emotions on a level even close to what I'm used to expressing my own at. (I am, I should note, a HIGHLY EMOTIONAL person.)

would you find yourself in that sort of situation in the first place?
Because I don't relate to your emotions as they were put to paper, I'm not sure if I understand the situation you found yourself in. I have been nervous and overanalyzing; and (because I am a woman?) tend to voice these feelings to the point of babbling. I still feel like there is something I'm missing, something I'm blind to, when I read your piece. I understand the words but the picture isn't clear to me; like one of those "magic posters" that take shape if you stare at it long enough with your eyes crossed and your head cocked to one side. It's not a like vs. dislike of your writing, please believe me when I say that. I'm frustrated because I love to feel what I read, and I feel like I'm missing out on something phenomenal just because of my own emotional filters. *sigh

Or is something so basic as looking into someone's eyes something that can be interpreted a billion different ways?
It will always be that. The ability to do that is a core human trait, it's part of what sets us apart from the other fauna on this planet. You see the world with different colors and sounds and experiences than anyone else, as do I, as does each individual because of exactly that: we are individuals with different experiences that weigh and color our perceptions.

So, maybe it IS a male/female thing, and maybe it's an "individual human being" thing. I'm very impressed with you, regardless of my interpretation of your poetry. I like people who make me think, too.

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Incandescent In reply to GauzyDreams [2005-06-28 10:12:39 +0000 UTC]

Hey, now, it's not too often that I meet people that have anything to say to my philosophical digressions.

Hm, so, first off, yes, I was asking about a masculine element in my poem... I just finished taking a lit theory course a couple of weeks ago, and in discussing feminism I got my proper earful on the masculinity of life in general. Anyhow. Well, it seems like we're delving in that direction, anyway, huh. I find it curious when people say that women have a higher level of emotion, because I wonder what, exactly, is meant by that. I guess to some extent, it's me as an emotional man taking exception, but I think also the socialized differences in gendered emotional expression (whew!) muddle up the situation somewhat. That is to say, in some ways, someone could look at me and say in some instance that I hold back my feelings, but then I could just as well say that I'm not hiding them from myself, but rather exercising self-control because it's advantageous sometimes to do that. Just as well, I could say at other times... well, now I'm thinking that 'expression' can refer to different things, and I know there are times when I know intuitively what I am feeling, and I'm not trying to hide it, but I don't know how to express it in words, or straight off why I am feeling that way. I don't know, what does it mean to be highly emotional?

Strangely enough, the more I look back at this poem, the more I see a picture of myself in a state that isn't emotional. But I guess this goes along with my personal philosophy that words are, to some extent, antithetical to emotion, at least when you look at them in the present sense... like, emotions need to be reinterpreted, analyzed, and overall have time spent on them to really boil them down into words that describe what they are, and when you're really speaking emotionally, you find it's not what you're saying, but how you're saying it? I guess this goes right along with what you're saying about babbling while being nervous and overanalyzing. Words are flying without having some stable source. And I guess in general I don't find many of my pure emotional states very poetic, or perhaps just not very applicable or comprehensible to anyone but me, aside from perhaps a sense of wonder, or being overwhelmed by beauty.

Don't worry about whether or not you like my poetry. This really does not matter to me at all. I'd rather have people like me for who I am (who I in turn can like for who they are) than just take my art for what it is, and I appreciate that you can speak to me honestly and intelligently and respect me for doing the same. To me I think that's the kindest gesture.

But back to the feeling... I suppose I find it curious, too, that you feel there's a filter keeping you from seeing what's going on here, and more than anything it makes me want to see inside your head for a little bit, because I'm getting a sense of a person who is at once very similar yet very different from me, and those kinds of paradoxes intrigue me. But, I guess, some more clues, if this helps— I've been trying to rebuild a picture in my head of the moment, and I remember chatting, in her dorm room because it was mid-December, probably about something intellectual, because that's how I am, and that's how she is, and I guess we were moving closer to one another as we talked, because somehow she ended up in my lap. At that point I was slightly nervous without knowing why, and the conversation started to slow and the pauses between turns lengthened and it felt like I was communicating more through my fingers running through her hair but I felt like something I should have been saying was resting on the tip of my tongue as the silence grew longer, then I looked down to see her looking back up at me, her eyes wide with ambiguous meaning, attentive, then—

the kiss, pure magic.

— Ian

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Incandescent In reply to GauzyDreams [2005-06-14 08:55:56 +0000 UTC]

Haha, I never understand why people feel the need to apologize for how they feel. Maybe different people experience lust in different ways? Dunno.

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Incandescent In reply to clovesmoke-catharsis [2005-06-14 08:47:50 +0000 UTC]

Hm, well, I think it would be just as limiting to write in free verse.

To answer your question, I like having a nice rhythm to the words, but how that pans out varies from poem to poem.

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Incandescent In reply to Nerimon [2005-06-14 08:36:45 +0000 UTC]

Given how idiosyncratic the DD process can be, I'm not going to give myself too much credit, but thanks anyway!

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Incandescent In reply to themainliner [2005-03-27 17:56:15 +0000 UTC]

Whoa, I wrote a comment on this and it just wound up disappearing. Strange.

Anyhow, what I remember writing:

- Whose reading did you listen to, * imperfect 's or mine or both? Just curious. And I agree, the way poetry sounds aloud is very important, and I would go so far as to say that poems that lose effectiveness aloud are not as good as those that are written with sound in mind.

- It seems like I have no trouble writing poems with fantastic last lines (or stanzas) to wrap up less-than-fantastic parts before. In the case of this one, I'm wondering if you've taken 'fail' to mean something other than what I actually felt... really, feel free to take from my poems whatever you want, but understand that it might not have too much to do with what I meant about myself, when I do write in lyric. The 'I' within the context of the poem is still me, and I don't think you can analyse that as a character... well, hrm, do you disagree with that? I wonder if that would be a uniquely poetic thing, then, separating meaning from character or meaning from plot.

- And please, spare me the lavish words. I got that sort of thing on AllPoetry all the time, and while I know you mean well, it makes me uncomfortable and also distances me from you. Just tell me what you like, what you thought, how it made you feel. That's good enough. Much better, actually.

- Bonus points for lyrics to my favourite Ride song in your sig. Even if I don't listen to their lyrics.

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themainliner In reply to Incandescent [2005-03-28 15:07:59 +0000 UTC]

The reply I made to the original has disappeared as well.

Perhaps just as well. I like this reply better. Can you separate character or plot from meaning? Always. Can you separate narrator from author? Always. Can interpretation legitimately extend beyond intention. Always. Can I express myself naturally even when wielding large words and classical metaphors? You'd better fucking believe it. I can talk about the trojan wars in one breathe and make a flippant throwaway remark the Strokes the next.

Simplicity? I liked the piece. I was moved enough to write some words, I wish I hadn't bothered. I gave you a piece of myself and you threw it back.

I listen to both and preferred imperfects.

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Incandescent In reply to themainliner [2005-04-02 13:31:26 +0000 UTC]

Dude. You wrote a horrible cliché at the end of that first comment. I gave you a piece of myself, and you threw it back as well. Oh god, we're apparently so going there. Why the hell is this getting personal, anyway? I just thought that you were drawing conclusions about me from the poem, and, well, I wanted to check what, exactly, you meant. I don't mean to criticize you personally or really get into anything about whoever you are until I know you, OK?

And, hrm, I agree with you on all those rhetorical questions you posed, except the one about separating narrator from author. Besides what it means to 'separate' (the way it sounds to me is that you see them as two entirely disparate entities, and I think they're inextricably intertwined, even in fiction, because it's impossible for the author to remove all traces of personal style from the prose), I think when the piece is intended to be autobiographical, it may be that the narrator is only a certain expression of the author, or a single facet or whatever, but still, that's entirely a subset of the person writing it, not at all separate, as I see it.

Why do you wish you hadn't bothered to write what you did? I'm glad you did, as I am with anyone else that makes me think about interesting things.

And I think *imperfect 's reading is better, too, but I'm sure she has a lot more practice at it than I do.

(I may as well also add that I applaud fear, hold it near, and am not afraid to live my life the way I choose.)

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themainliner In reply to Incandescent [2005-04-03 12:35:47 +0000 UTC]

Even if an author sets out to narrate with his own voice the audience may well mis- or reinterpret both the intent and the voice. Author and narrator may be inextricably intertwined, but can never be identical.

I've never been to AllPoetry, but it sounds like an intriguing place. I very rarely gush after reading a poem, but sometimes, especially when the poem is read to you in two different voices it touches a nerve. I like your piece so much that when I went to right about it I strayed into cliche and classical metaphor. I'm not apologizing for that.

If you have a more clinical and abstracted relationship to what you write I'm ambivalent, that seems like it could be a great gift but also a blunting of some sort. My words are a very personal part of my experience, I rarely share much with anyone, is that a cliche again.

I wanted to change my sig quickly and I was listening the The Richest Man In Babylon, as you well know, so next time I need to choose more carefully. I get the impression that whatever I chose, you'll've heard or, if I go for a literary quote, it'll box me further into the cliche I've started to create around myself...

Which may leave you with the unescapable question of why I care?

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Incandescent In reply to themainliner [2005-04-03 20:07:55 +0000 UTC]

Ah, well, interpretation is separate from narrator, no?

I haven't been to AllPoetry lately, but when I left it was being overrun by angsty teenagers. But your comment reminded me of how that site was before then.

I'm not criticising you for referring to something as a Pyrrhic victory. Honest.

I do write from personal experience. But, uh, it's not a journal, if that's what you ask. Who I am is over here, not on the Internet so much.

You're changing your sig just so I won't recognise it?!

And I don't ask why people care; that doesn't seem terribly productive.

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themainliner In reply to Incandescent [2005-04-04 10:49:25 +0000 UTC]

'Who I am is over here, not on the Internet so much.' Ah who I am is here and there, there again and on the internet...little bit's all me. People's reaction to you will change with their experience. 'I'm not criticising you for referring to something as a Pyrrhic victory. Honest.' Then, I'm sorry I clearly misunderstood something. '...interpretation is separate from narrator...' I'm not sure I understand that, all reading is interpretataive.

'I do write from personal experience...if that's what you ask.' No, I referred to '...a more clinical and abstracted relationship to what you write...' in the sense of being proud and defensive of work and being afraid to share and be critiqued. If some wrote heat I wrote I'd be staggered, I have had some staggering comments and I would never critique their comment or become blase about their language.

Sig...veritasangel's sig was '...so much beauty in a thought...' which reminded me instantly or 'there's no limit..' which was one place of disagreement between myself and aclose, radical Christian, friend. Just to have my new one quoted in full back at me. At least if I quote my own work I'm completely in control of it and it is a humorous piece, even if other people don't laugh...and it beats Hamlet hands down (as a quote not as a work, careful).

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Incandescent In reply to themainliner [2005-04-05 13:30:08 +0000 UTC]

I'm saying, just because the reader is always going to provide a biased interpretation, doesn't mean there doesn't exist some narrative intent that is inseparable from the author. Or something like that. I get lost in my words, sometimes.

Getting proud and defensive about a work is just bound to get yourself hurt, and you've got to be able to take criticism and work constructively off of it if you're going to improve your writing. I mean, I like what I write, but ultimately, it's not me - the best of people sometimes write utter crap, you can't judge them on that - and either I don't hold the critic in high esteem and I toss their comment aside, or I take it seriously and think about how I can improve my writing. I don't know about you, but the only people that can truly insult me are the ones that know enough about me to insult. There's certainly such a thing as going too far, and God knows I've done that my share of times, but at the same time, you've got to leave people a way to say what's on their mind, to not censor them out of fleeting emotions.

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themainliner In reply to Incandescent [2005-04-05 23:29:13 +0000 UTC]

The first sentence...hmmm, what?

The second sentence...did I write that? The synchronicity is becoming somewhat scary.

Let's end in agreement and find something else to debate.

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