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jollyjack — Extremist Logic
Published: 2014-09-03 12:10:21 +0000 UTC; Views: 73423; Favourites: 1669; Downloads: 682
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As I've understood it, it's the "Respect my authorita'h"-logic; "Peple aren't supposed to pity and sympatize with us, they're supposed to respect and fear us and do everything we say because we're big and strong and stuff."
But I don't wanna start a conversation so I'll just stop here :/
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Islamists: Contributing NOTHING to society since 600 AD.
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Why are you forcing the entirety of the people who follow Islam under the same category as the extremists who are actively murdering and harming people? I'm sorry but don't. You're not helping anyone by trying to stereotype a group of people when the majority have done nothing but live their lives. EXTREMISTS are the people who have been doing these shit things to anyone who disagrees- and that is a mindset that I absolutely loathe. You can absolutely be angry and disgusted by what ISIS is doing, but don't drag an entire people down because of them. People already face enough shit as it is.
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Read my comment. I didn't say Muslim. I said Islamists. There is a difference.
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"Religion of peace"
My ass
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Islam is a religion of peace.
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Millions of casualties caused by Islamic militants throughout the centuries since its conception begs to differ
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LOL nope. Haven't been peaceful since the Crusades. It's always war against the kaffir. This is because the extremists run the show.
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If by 'the Show' you mean the news, then yes, the extremists dominate the news. This is because non-extremists normally don't do anything news-worthy, but that is the case for any large group of people, religious, political, or whatever.
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Its just a negative cycle: they attack us, we attack them, they have more of an excuse to attack us.
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Yeah that pretty much sums it all up.
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So that's why there are trolls on the internet, someone chopped reason's head off!
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OMG YOU SHOULD KNOW TERRORISTS CANT BREAK THE LAWS OF PHYSICS, THEY ARE MEANT TO SUCK.
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Congratulations JollyJack
You're an artist of questionable talent but this time you've managed to raise a piece of art that is not only insulting, the best part is that this kind of "art"
will attract the attention of many people to try to discuss why it's funny or not is or why this interpretation is correct or it is not, while will rob
the spotlight from the real source of the problem, the rampaging capitalism of the more "advanced" nations
Sure is easier to think that the extremists of some faith or nation are wrong rather than get to think that the source of the problem are the excesses that we as people
provide us, we're not doing anything wrong, we just want to live better than them, their extremism must be because they are bored or like explosions, maybe they are fans of James Cameron.
Nothing to do with the massive amount of raw materials we consume and our economic system designed to leave them in in poverty, but if we dont realize that we are the only
source of the problem things will only get worse.
Oh sorry, maybe you just wanted the attention that this type of drawing atract, maybe your cartoons no longer call so much attention.
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The problem is religious fanatics. When have they ever been a good thing?
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--------------------- the point
you
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Extremism is always fucked up, ill-thought out, and wrong.
That is why we call it EXTREMISM.
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Way to completely miss the point. Impressive.
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The way you typed out your commend made it difficult to read, you don't need to double space like that. But anyways, even if this piece does draw in many people discussing varying interpretations and opinions, isn't that... a good thing? I've never heard someone say "This artwork is great because there's so little to be said about it!" Hell, the most simple piece of artwork can be considered a masterpiece if it incites thought and discussion from the viewers.
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...or maybe he was expressing an opinion?
I dunno, just throwing that out there.
Also, seems to me that by being online you are, even if only in a minuscule way, adding to the so called "problem" of "rampaging capitalism". Thus making you a hypocrite.
Don't get me wrong. We're all guilty of hypocrisy every now and again. I'm just doing my civic duty and keeping you humble by reminding you of the fact.
I'm helpful like that.
I also know when to take something serious and when to laugh at a good joke. This comic, by the way, elicits the latter in me. We're all different, I know, but things that are funny should just be laughed at. That seems the best course to me (and quite possibly the more healthy choice as well, what with laughing being the medicine of the soul and all).
Now, call me on this if I'm wrong, but it sounds to me that you were just looking for something to fight about. It's okay, I do that all the time...like now. I'm sure that this comic just rubbed you in a place that was already pink and raw. And that just made you want to take it out on the first target in your sights; the artist.
Seems to me that this isn't the right place to do that sort of thing. Not that I can't take my own advice here, but I DID say that we're all hypocritical every now and again, didn't I?
Moral of the story here is "laugh at things that are funny or leave them alone." By following that one moral you can make life not only easier on yourself by avoiding jerks like me, but you can make life better for others by just keeping your negative, hippy, idealistic nonsense to yourself.
Thanks ^_^
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?
The Islamists have been waging on and off Jihad against the 'kaffir' for over 1400 years now, ever since Mohammed decided to become a warlord, and encouraged wanton violence when he wrote the latter half of the Koran. This was even when the Middle East, through the various Caliphates that rose, and later the Ottaman Empire, was internationally known as a HIGHLY ADVANCED SUPERPOWER. But by all means, continue regurgitating the disproved Marxist B.S, because what else would fit your narrative other than. "The evil capitalist West is imperialist and evil, and if we just hugged our enemies, they will like us."
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Joshmoe93 :
It's not the religion that causes the violence, but a few people (in this case the "Jihadists") who distort Islamic teaching and the Quran (Koran) to their advantage and use this distorted teachings as an excuse to commit crimes and terror. Islam does not allow violence except under reasonable and dire circumstances.
Joshmoe93, I will explain this below (also clarify a few things you said in your previous comment)
1) In Islam, Jihad means "religious struggle" which doesn't have to be violence, but can be (mental and emotional struggle for religion is regarded as better than any physical sacrifice or pain for the protection of religion.) Islam does not promote any type of violence unless in reasonable or dire circumstances. The Quran says (and this is in the FIRST half of the Quran): [2:191-193] "But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers... But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors." This clearly states one of Islams most important conditions for violence: self defense. It is completely forbidden to commit violence other than of self defense. It says if your oppressors stop fighting you, there should be no aggression against them. This very clearly means that killing innocent people is atrocious in Islam's eyes. There is even and Islamic and Jewish saying: "If you kill a single person, it is as if you have killed all of mankind. If you save one person, it is as if you have saved all of mankind".
2) Mohammed was NOT a warlord. Here's some excerpts from nonmuslims about him:
"...I became more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the prophet, the scrupulous regard for his pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and his own mission. These, and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every trouble." Gandhi, 1924
"He was Caesar and Pope in one; but he was Pope without Pope's pretensions, Caesar without the legions of Caesar: without a standing army, without a bodyguard, without a palace, without a fixed revenue; if ever any man had the right to say that he ruled by the right divine, it was Mohammed, for he had all the power without its instruments and without its supports." Rev. Bosworth Smith, 1874.
I think this is sufficient evidence. if you want more: www.gainpeace.com/index.php?op…
3)Also, Mohammed did NOT write the 2nd half of the Quran. Or any of it. As above stated in the quotes, Mohammed was a kind man and by logic would not have any intent to trick people into believing what he wrote was God's words. Nor is there any evidence that God told Mohammed to write anything. In fact, the first words revealed of the Quran was "Read in the name of your Lord" not "Write in the name of your Lord." This implies that the Quran was already written (metaphorically, not physically. It is true that he compiled the Quran and spoke it to people for the first time, but none of the words were his own. He was a vessel, more or less).
4) It is true that the "Islamists" (and by that I mean Terrorists) have been waging war against others for +/- 1400 years. But it was those caliphates who were the warlords. It is unchallenged that the Caliphs (mainly Yazid, Muawiya, and Mamun) were the ones who murdered Muhammed's family out of hate. This then breaks the rule of self defense, as the Prophet and his family were peaceful at all times unless forced to fight. It's unfortunate that the Caliphs' twisted version of Islam is now mainstream Islam.
5) The word Islam means "peace and submission"
Thanks for reading. Please be civil, and reply by note or another comment
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This is probably my favourite comment of the entire section. I unfortunately know little about Islam and its codes and ethics, but I know enough to say that being Islamic does not suddenly make someone a radical terrorist who is out to kill anyone who doesn't follow the same beliefs. Stereotyping and prejudice like that drives me up a wall.
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I just want people to understand at least the basics of what Islam stands for. And one of them is the denouncing of injustice and barbaric murder like the ISIS are doing currently
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Muhammed was a violent, homophobic, misogynistic child molester(but too be fair, most people were back then). Why Muslims revere this guy, I'll never understand.
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LordOfstamps,
There's no legitimate evidence that he was any of that. Just unfortunate misinformation.
He was actually a very kind,loving, compassionate man. He never once fought anyone and never fought in any wars
Quote from Gandhi
...I became more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the prophet, the scrupulous regard for his pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and his own mission.
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Read the Hadiths. He was a misogynist. He was a homophobe. He had an underage wife. He also sucked young boy's tounges. If he were alive today he'd be on the FBI's most wanted list./
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Alright then, which book of Hadith are you getting these from?
The hadith about his"underage wife" is completely unreliable. She was actually about 18 when he married her.
He actually was very kind to women. Here's a reported hadith about it by mohammed:
“Do treat your women well and be kind to them, for they are your partners and committed helpers.”
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According to the Hadiths (Written by Muhammad himself) homosexuals should be put to death. Conservative Muslims follow this without question.
Aisha was 6 when they married and they consumated their marriage at age 9. Anyone who studyed the Quran knows that.
Muhammad owned multiple wives. That is not anti-Sexist. The Hadith The Quran allows men to discipline their wives by striking them.
Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion [committing a religious sin], admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.
-Quran 4:34:
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I encourage you to watch this video: www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiiwjU… ; Where he explains my point. If you can, watch at LEAST 10 mins of it. (he starts talking at 2:38). Also, anything he says in Arabic in this video is directly from the Quran (he quotes it many times). He also uses scientific and rational arguments. He is a psychologist and molecular biologist.
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Apologists aren't credible.
"Scientific" arguments for a religion never end well.
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Then who is credible? Surely not those supporting your side because then they would be apologists, no?
I think apologists are credible under the condition that their evidence is based on fact and not opinion. They are trying to prove their point through evidence.
By scientific I meant logical and psychological. I think it ended quite well.
Don't know if you watched it but either way..
show evidence, refute it
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Many laws and rules in Islam are based of science. For example, the reason that alcohol is forbidden is the negative effects of it on people and the community.
Another example is why eating pork is forbidden, as said in animalsciencejournal.usamv.ro:
"Among all animal meats pork is the filthiest diet to consume by human beings. Pig is the cradle of harmful germs. Scientific evidences prove that pig meat is least healthy having different harmful agents like Cholesterol and Fatty Acids, Bacteria and Toxins and a number of parasites. The pig meat is high in fat and cholesterol that causes the cardiovascular diseases, obesity, the incidence of large intestine cancer. Bacteria and Toxins associated with pigs spread many diseases like salmonellosis, which leads to the acute gastroenteritis and diarrhea. Many other diseases like, Tuberculosis, Yersiniosis, Listeriosis, Leptospirosis, Brucellosis, Small Pox, Influenza, Anthrax, Balantidial dysentery, Foot rot, Cholera and Erysipeloid are attributed to pork consumption."
These are scientific arguments aren't they? Is it not logical from the above quote that pig shouldn't be eaten?
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Aisha was not 6 at marriage. I have read the Quran and there is absolutely no evidence of it in the Quran
Here's an explanation on that verse. Al Mizan:
" Men as a group have authority over women as a group in those common affairs which have more affinity with man's enhanced prudence and hardiness, i.e., rulership, judiciary and wax; but it does not negate the independence of woman in her individual will and activities, she decides what she wants and acts as she wishes and man has no right to interfere in any way - except when she intends to do something unlawful. In short, there is no restriction on them in whatever they want to do for themselves in a proper way. In the same way, husband's authority over the wife does not mean that she has lost control over her own self or property or is restricted in her will or action regarding its management; nor does it mean that woman is not free and independent in safeguarding and protecting her personal and social rights, nor is she hindered from adopting suitable means to achieve those rights."
This is a more clear translation starting from "the good women are therefore obedient":therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allah), and guard in the husband's absence what Allah orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity, their husband's property, etc.). Regarding the woman who is guilty of lewd, or indecent behavior, admonish her (if she continues in this indecency then), stop sharing her bed (if she still continues doing this lewd behavior, then)",THIS IS WHAT IS MEANT BY "BEAT": "[set forth for her the clear meaning of either " straighten up or else we are finished" and when she returns to proper behavior take up sharing the bed with her again], but if she returns in obedience (to proper behavior and conduct) then seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allah is Ever Most High, Most Great.”
An explanation of the word "beat": in arabic the word being used in this case is "dharaba". (This is about Arabic grammar so it is a bit confusing)
In this way, the Quranic term 'Idribo hunna' can mean to 'turn away or separate' without the preposition 'an'. This certainly seems to be the understanding of earlier classical Arabic lexicon authorities that were scrutinised and cited by Edward Lanes."
The word "dharaba" can certainly mean beat, but it is written as the alternate meaning "to separate" meaning a man can separate or stay away from an arrogant, guilty, or lewd woman.
I commend your research and civility. It's nice to have an intelligent debate
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Actually there are references that suggest that Aisha was a preteen. Child brides were common in Muhammad's time and are still practiced by some Muslims.
American historian Denise Spellberg states that "these specific references to the bride's age reinforce Aisha's pre-menarcheal status and, implicitly, her virginity." Colin Turner, a professor of Islamic states that since such marriages between an older man and a young girl were customary among the Bedouins, Muhammad's marriage would not have been considered improper by his contemporaries.
Even if it doesn't say that men should beat their wives, it still says that women are inferior to men. 80% of women in Pakistan are victims of domestic violence.
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Science in the Quran:
Note: Heavens means anything beyond earth's surface
Infinitely expanding universe: "And it is We who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it."
(The Qur'an, 51:47)
Orbit of moon and sun: "It is He Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They swim along, each in an orbit. "
(The Qur'an, 21:33)
Earth's protective atmosphere:"We made the sky a preserved and protected roof yet still they turn away from Our Signs.."
(The Qur'an, 21:32)
Layers of the atmosphere: "We made the sky a preserved and protected roof yet still they turn away from Our Signs.."
(The Qur'an, 21:32)
Function of mountains:"We placed firmly embedded mountains on the earth, so it would not move under them…"
(The Qur'an, 21:31)
Theory of relativity: "They ask you to hasten the punishment. God will not break His promise. A day with your Lord is equivalent to a thousand years in the way you count."
(The Qur'an, 22:47)
"He directs the whole affair from heaven to earth. Then it will again ascend to Him on a Day whose length is a thousand years by the way you measure."
(The Qur'an, 32:5)
(The Qur'an, 70:4)
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I see you're one of those people.
The theory of relativity thing is so vague it could apply to anything.
Mountains don't stop the Earth from moving.
The atmospere thing is unimpressive.
The Sun does not orbit the Earth.
The expanding universe thing is also vague.
The Quran contains zero scientific facts (as does the Bible).
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"a Day whose length is a thousand years by the way you measure." How is that not relativity? 1000 years relative to a day
Mountains act as anchors into the earth. for example islands from volcanoes
Unimpressive? It clearly states the atmosphere exists to protect the earth.
Moon orbits Earth, Sun orbits the center of the galaxy. It says in AN orbit.
Again, "heavens" means things outside the earth. clearly stating that it (the universe) is being expanded at a steady rate which is true: "it is We who are steadily expanding it."
Not so quick with the ultimatums, mate
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I don't know what's worse. Islamists or Islamic creationists.
That quote was comparing God's time to human time. It says nothing about relativity.
Anchors? Earth does not need anchors.
Again. That quote was vague and can me anything.
That quote was clearly implying that it orbited Earth. Back then nobody knew what a galaxy was.
Again. That quote is vague and can be twisted to mean many things.
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Slow down a bit there. Islamic creationists aren't killing anyone I hope.
Relativity: Comparing two perceptions of anything (in this case time) is exactly what relativity is. That time is different relative to us and whatever else the verse was referring to.
About mountains:
The verse states that mountains perform the function of preventing shocks in the Earth. This fact was not known by anyone at the time the Qur'an was revealed. It was, in fact, brought to light only recently, as a result of the findings of modern geological research.
Formerly, it was thought that mountains were merely protrusions rising above the surface of the Earth. However, scientists realised that this was not actually the case, and that those parts known as the mountain root extended down as far as 10-15 times their own height. With these features, mountains play a similar role to a nail or peg firmly holding down a tent."We made the sky a preserved and protected roof
(The Qur'an, 21:32) Is the atmosphere not protective? Does it not preserve life? That's common knowledge. It's pretty obvious.
It said "they both swim along, each in an orbit" It does not mention the Earth in the verse. Here's another quote:"By the sky full of paths and orbits."(The Qur'an, 51:7) Of course no one knew what galaxies were. That's the argument. We believe the Quran was not created by humans. But if you don't believe in God, then that's an argument for a different time.
Again, If I switched "heavens" with "universe" will it make more sense? "And it is We who have constructed the universe with might, and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it."(The Qur'an, 51:47)
This VERY CLEARLY says the universe is steadily expanding.
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Still it's nonsense and has no place in the modern world.
That is not how mountains work. Look up how mountains are formed. I would be more impressed if the Quran mentioned gravity.
All of those Quran passages are so vague they can mean anything.
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Then I respectfully ask you to reinterpret it for me
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They probably have a religious meaning, not a scientific one.
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Probably?
There are over 600 verses in the quran relating to science
The reason it's so cryptic is because at the time people didn't understand much science. So it was made simpler. Now,we as more scientifically intelligent people can deciepher the words and relate them to scientific concepts. Hence "heavens" being used in place of atmosphere or space
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Heavens was clearly meant in a religious sense, not a scientific one.
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Again, at the time people did not know about anything outside the earth. (space, atmosphere, etc) and therefor it was simplified to "heavens" for them to better understand.
Keep in mind that in this case heaven does NOT mean paradise
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The translation above is mistaken or at best forced. Better translations of the last clause are "we are the ones who enrich it" (Pangloss 2003) or "we it is who made the vast extent" (Pickthall n.d.).
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Taken from debatingchrisitanity.com:
The arabic word in the verse I quoted for heaven refers to the wider universe outside of the earth. This is what it means in arabic. And the arabic word in the verse "moosiaaoona" comes from the verb "evsea" meaning to expand. So the correct translation should read as it is given above. And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it. (Qur'an, 51:47)
Muhammad Asad translates this verse as 51:47 AND IT IS We who have built the universe [30] with [Our creative] power; and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it.
Heaven is the translation of the word 'samaa'
'We are expanding it' is the translation of the plural present participle "musi'una" of the verb "aus'a" meaning to make wider, more spacious, to extend, to expand.
This is the correct translation of the verse from the arabic. Now if you can show me in the arabic it says something different I'll believe you.
this has also been translated as spreading or extending which are synonyms.
The translations you suggested, or should I say username Goat from debatingchristianity.com suggested
Here are some others:
Sahih International: And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander.
Muhammad Sarwar: We have made the heavens with Our own hands and We expanded it.
We both have our believed translations. A bit of a problem
Also on a side note, I'm sure we both have school tomorrow so I won't be able to reply as often or at all. If not, then this was a good debate. I had some fun. Hopefully we can continue if school doesn't get in the way.
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