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kobaltkween In reply to Ariel-X [2012-10-29 07:33:17 +0000 UTC]

Thank you!

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kobaltkween In reply to xmas-kitty [2012-10-05 04:35:38 +0000 UTC]

Thanks so much!

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kobaltkween In reply to DapperMan [2012-09-06 02:55:22 +0000 UTC]

As always, thanks for the comment! Sorry to disappoint, but the floor is basic flat reflective, but it's my Reflective, which means it has Fresnel and other properties built into it. And yeah, dynamic shoes are no problem. I ended up converting some sandals to dynamic recently because it would have been more of a PITA for me to convert them to weight mapped. I made them props, made them all constrained, worked perfectly. Constraining really only has a problem with heavy morphing, and even then the main problem is distortion much like you'd get with something conforming. My booties (I just couldn't think of a better term for them) don't have any constrained parts, but they would have if I'd given them modeled soles (though they wouldn't be as good for dancing then - these do have displaced "soles" on the ball of the foot and heel). I've converted LLF's stockings from Infamous/Scandalous to dynamic without any problem, and they're pretty high res.

So far, my big problems with dynamic clothes are the really complex interactions, like regular belts. Regular belts have the cloth underneath, the belt loops, the belt buckles, and the belt itself all interacting with and constraining one another. That said, the solution cocco, dynamic merchant extraodinare, uses is just to constrain the whole lot. Won't work well if you give the figure a heavy morph, but that's kind of the same restriction actual pants like that have. If dynamic clothes played more nicely with morphs, it wouldn't even be an issue. I've gotten them to work with morphs, but they've behaved so inconsistently that I couldn't sell them that way. I also like to build clothes in an A pose, especially pants and shirts, which messes up Morphing Clothes. It also makes my clothes work better, because their default shape is more like that of actual clothes. Shoulders especially benefit from this, but it doesn't hurt the crotch area not to be modeled with the legs almost touching.

You know, I never knew what problems you had with your suits. I know of lots of different problems one can have with suits like that, depending on what you want out of them. Is there anything in particular I might be able to help with?

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DapperMan In reply to kobaltkween [2012-09-06 05:22:39 +0000 UTC]

I see. Well, the Fresnel effect at least makes it appear different than the regular and obvious reflection that just screams, "CGI!" It sounded unlikely to make dynamic shoes, but what you've done does sound logical.

Belts! I've had my belt headaches too, but I can't go and look at how I approached it (no access to my main PC for a while). Can't remember if it was cocco's method or a prop that started oversized and shrunk to fit during the sim. And I've had "fun" applying a morph that suddenly broke a sim beyond repair. Good times. Good tip about modeling from an A pose; I'll have to try that too.

I was making uniforms and flight suits. The problem with the flight suits is that the sims don't like the mesh and its chamfers and other details. But that just gave me a chance to sculpt wrinkles into it like a videogame model, and use it as a morph. The problem with the uniform was that it won't cling or wrinkle the way I want it. And I have to divide it into 4 or 5 zones and triangulate the heck out of it for enough density to wrinkle like human-sized clothes (my best attempt is here [link] ). It's probably best for me to make conforming suits and conforming uniforms with dynamic sleeves and dresses. It's just less work since I ultimately want to depict 3 or more characters at a time. Well, any advice on sleeve simulations? Mine always come out looking like pipes. I can get a small fold, but never the nice twists and bunches you see on real sleeves.

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kobaltkween In reply to DapperMan [2012-09-06 13:49:55 +0000 UTC]

Fresnel control of reflection, diffuse, and specular are really helpful in pretty much every material.

Oh, I know what you mean about the oversized prop. That's a great method if you don't have to worry about where the belt lands (no belt loops or anything like that). Where I hit a wall was belt loops _and_ belt buckle with a belt. Everything besides constraining has been kind of a PITA. That said, I'm not in love with the conforming solution to that, either. I'm kind of unreasonable when it comes to metal bending, compressing, and generally acting like skin. Same goes for the distortions morphs introduce. They're better than constraining, but not nearly as good made to fit.

Hmmmm. I've not had that problem, I think, though it's hard to tell. That is to say, I'm not seeing your goal clearly in my head. When I look at photos of uniforms, they're generally stiffer than most of the clothes I've made. So I may not be very helpful in this realm. But I _think_ I know what you mean about the bunches and twists. As far as I can tell, there's two big issues that generally don't go into Poser dynamic clothes. One is friction. The default is something like cloth on metal. It's incredibly slick. It's nowhere near cloth on skin, let alone cloth on cloth (undershirts, etc.). IIRC, static friction won't stay in the settings if you save the prop, but dynamic will. Either way, I'd raise those a bunch and see what happens. I've gone up to 0.99 static and 0.96 dynamic for stuff I wanted to behave like elastic. Also, as far as I understand it, shear is how much your fabric crumples. I only keep it high when I want smooth wrinkles. Not that I've seen a huge difference, but I tend to keep my fold and shear numbers close together for most fabrics, not an order of magnitude apart as they are by default.

The other factor, and I'm less sure how to do this, is a sort of material memory to the clothes have. They never entirely relax back to default. They retain wrinkles. I'm not sure how to depict that, except in displacement maps. Displacement is good for those wrinkles and creases that are there from wear or for small scale structure (which I'm sure you know). I only mention it because I tend to put my fine detail in the map rather than the mesh. I've had too many times of wanting to tweak hems or edges, both overall and for a pose. Neither works very well if I've modeled the hem, even in terms of altering a base mesh. And of course, it can make the displacement I do want problematic. But that also means I don't have to worry about details having problems in the sim. Also, if you have a bunch of movements, keep the sim going. Poser understands previous movement only by it being in the sim. For instance, if you make a circular skirt, it will look most gathered and sim most nicely if you let it sim from a flat circular state. If you sim it from already draped, with all of the folds from draping, what you've given Poser is essentially a cylinder with wrinkles. So as it sims, it will relax to a basic cylindrical state.

Topology is a big influence. The more uniform you make your mesh, the more uniformly it will sim. Also, it's more about the relaxed state of the mesh than the one you've modeled. As far as I can tell, it's sort of like smoothing but with gravity. I don't model in folds (so far), but I do try to give the shoulders, chests,and skirts of my clothes the topology I want for the type of sim I want. For instance, regardless of a tight or loose fit, if I want something to fall as if there's no shoulders, I try to keep the sleeves as evenly spaced as possible. If I want a nice sharp bend at the shoulders, I try to get the edge loops in place to give it greater bending at that point. With the chest, for women's clothes, there's all sorts of different topologies you can use to fit around the breasts. Even if the shape of the mesh is the same, tops will sim and drape around the breasts differently depending on their topology.

Heavier cloth means a higher cloth density. Sometimes, greater cloth weight will help introduce forces you need to create the wrinkles you want. That said, sometimes it's better to make cloth lighter, so friction and other forces aren't overcome by draping.

I actually find dynamic faster because I don't like how conforming looks in my own work. It drives me nuts trying to make conforming clothing, even skin tight clothing, look like its actually behaving like cloth. In the same way that I'd rather model something I can use at any angle than paint it for a single use, I would rather sit and take care of something else while a sim runs than spend the time necessary to try to tweak a conforming mesh. To be honest, I'm not even sure I'm efficient about my choices. I just know I'd _much_ rather model a room than paint one, sim a skirt than morph one. I'd even rather morph a simmed skirt than one that's conformed. Also, I never work with the same characters. For me, it's not how many figures are in my scene, but whether clothing will just fit the morph and the pose. I never know what a character will look like until I'm pretty much done with the building part of the scene. When I use conforming, I end up finding it easiest to stay within the Morphs++ FBMs. But it would be a whole different situation if I had fairly consistent characters.

I usually spend most of my time in my images on hair. I'll go through several choices of figures and props, trying to get something to actually behave well enough to be a realistic basis. Not finished product, just a basis. I've only got about 2 items that just work. I've spent more on hair figures and props than I'd like to admit, and pretty much all of them have been useless when I tried to fit them onto figures and into poses. I don't even need them to be perfect, because I can edit them most easily. So the one type of accessory I use that isn't dynamic takes up the majority of my time, even though it's the easiest for me to postwork.

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kobaltkween In reply to kobaltkween [2012-09-06 14:00:55 +0000 UTC]

Oh, and hybrid clothes seem like they work really well for most people. I may get into them at some point. I just kind of dread it because each time I try to do anything with a more complex structure, I'm frustrated by the compromises that end up being necessary.

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DapperMan In reply to kobaltkween [2012-09-12 03:26:40 +0000 UTC]

Since I won't be able to use Poser for a while (hardware issue), I've been looking at very old test renders of the uniforms. Looks like my first tests had the sleeves bend the way I (now) want them to. When I saw reference pics of uniforms I changed the sims to make them look stiff and starchy like the real thing. I had the right idea earlier, and messed myself up by trying make them look too real. They really do look better than I remember, but didn't sim too well in pin-up poses (but neither would a real uniform...). Might be worth combining the earlier efforts with the present ones to see what can be done.

I think my topology is divided into quads pretty uniformly. Regarding the chest and maybe shoulders, there's only a limited amount that can be changed because it would alter the UV mapping, unfortunately. But that's good to know for future modeling for sure.

I've gotten to where I end up making a custom morph per pose to get conforming clothes to fit right. I'd go crazy without the morphing ability of ZBrush. So I guess it's hard for me to complain that conforming is eaiser/quicker to work with than dynamic.

Looks like we're in the same comical boat regarding hair, but I heavily morph them instead of painting them. At least your postwork never looks obvious.

I'm torn now between what I want to do regarding hybrid clothes. It's likely that at least the male uniforms will be 75%/25% conforming/dynamic.

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kobaltkween In reply to DapperMan [2012-09-12 16:04:15 +0000 UTC]

I think you've hit the nail on the head in terms of poses. That's what's often so frustrating to me when people talk about dynamic clothes not behaving "properly." I totally get wanting what one wants, but it kind of frustrates me when people describe physically accurate behavior as wrong. With the situation, that is, not the people. Basically, it becomes like them really wanting a product to work like a Zbrush sculpt. They want dynamics, but they want them to work like they should in their heads, which is so completely individual that it's impossible to predict. Like the people who use hybrid dresses who get surprised that the join between dynamic and conforming is a hard edge, or those who expect short, tight skirts to behave like shorts. It's really hard to predict what people expect, and therefore what to build for them. I can make myself nuts trying to anticipate people's expectations. I've basically given up on that and am just trying to work to decent results as I can predict.

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DapperMan In reply to kobaltkween [2012-09-14 06:18:10 +0000 UTC]

Yes, people's expectations are interesting. I can't imagine being a vendor of items that practically require you to provide tech support because people don't fully understand the pros and cons of something. That's why I hesitate when people ask if I'll release some of the user-unfriendly anime stuff I've made.

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kobaltkween In reply to Shango-ThunderStones [2012-08-25 21:10:12 +0000 UTC]

I totally understand about your experience with dynamic clothes. A lot of people have the same experience. If you'd like, I can pass along the instructions I made for this set, or answer any questions you have. Dynamic clothes have such wonderful drape, and can always be made to fit whatever morph you want. And they're fun, once they start working for you.

To be honest, I now made this a bit ago, so I can't remember my lights. I generally used to work with two spots and IDL (and the right environment) for fill. The right environment generally being a simple cube with diffuse coloring and ambient areas of the right color and intensity for the general light I want. I've gotten into more complex light recently, but mainly because Poser doesn't have good area or mesh lights. My last two renders (unfinished) used my photo studio, with the studio and my environment prop with a free sky texture for IDL, an infinite for sun, and in one case, the my softbox figure (it has lights attached) for additional light. They both worked pretty well, even though they had pretty different results.

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Shango-ThunderStones In reply to kobaltkween [2012-08-26 01:27:09 +0000 UTC]

I used to use Photobox by MindVision and IDL studio and Render studio but lately I have decided to see if I could just go without the "crutches" to see if I can do it by myself. Most of my renders of late has been without them and follow the 3 lights principles.... 1 spot without shadow to light the scene, IDL and 1 point light without shadow for speculars. It worked out ok, I guess... The last set of renders done after the solider is done without the "crutches".

As for dynamic clothes and room, like the lights, I need to practice, practice, PRACTICE!!! *UGH!!!!* if I'm going to get any better.... Right now got an idea for a render and am waiting for the current one to stop so I can try it out... Thanks!

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kobaltkween In reply to Shango-ThunderStones [2012-08-27 07:11:54 +0000 UTC]

From what I can tell (I've never used any of them myself, but I've seen them used), those products seem pretty good. I've been interested in ID-Light myself, because you can never have too many HDRIs and backgrounds.

My photo studio won't exactly be like those, though. It will have lights, but they're attached to props and figures. Some props are mobile, and most are adjustable in terms of rotation. It's less of a crutch than, well, a studio. I'll be making scene presets for it, but right now using it isn't very different than lighting from scratch. Nor does it preclude doing that. One of my recent tests just used my environment prop (which I'm considering remaking) with free sky texture and an infinite for a sun, without any of my light props or figures.

So far, it just saves time on setup to have lights that already have all their basic properties set (inverse square falloff, shadow type, shadow bias, etc.), basic scenery for portraits, and nice dark and bright elements for IDL and reflections.

That's a very unique take on the 3 light set up. I haven't come across one like it before. Usually a 3 light setup is a main light, an accent or edge light, and a fill. I get using IDL for fill, since that's what I do and what a fill light is supposed to simulate. But usually the other two lights have shadows. Assuming the spot is the main light, what does it do for the scene to turn off its shadows? And how do you set up a light just for specular? I'm assuming that's for the IDL's specular, since the other spot would already give you specular. I know technically how to make a specular light, but I would think it's really difficult to get a single light to match the relevant light areas in an environment and/or background. I'd love to hear more about your technique.

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Shango-ThunderStones In reply to kobaltkween [2012-08-27 14:04:32 +0000 UTC]

IDL give soft shadows, I think. It illuminate the actors and props in a scene... (Actually it's an IBL with HDRI) If I'm using something with a metallic reflection, the HDRI gets plugged into the environment node which gets plugged into the reflection plug on the main node. It doesn't always give the desirable specular. One spot light act as a rim or edge light. The other one act like a sort of specular light... But that's me... Somebody else will have a different setup that works better than mine. I'm by no mean an expert when it comes to rendering and lighting. Neither am I when it comes to the mat room. I just lucked out and tend to use the same setup til I hit something that's not so great or good and then it's back to trial and errors. Sometimes, I don't use any lights at all but it comes out ok... Photobox is an example of that (well, it uses only one light (the spec without shadow) but it surrounds the setting with a "box" with ambient setting on high to give light to the scene. I like it but I don't want to rely on it for everything. It's not so great for doing outdoor scene. Portrait, yeah and things of that nature but anything else, nope. For that I have to use an Environment dome or Sphere or something like the TerraDome... But I digress... I could take this to PM and discuss it even further with you if you want.

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kobaltkween In reply to Shango-ThunderStones [2012-08-27 20:44:17 +0000 UTC]

Oh, and just to say, I realize you may not be at all interested in a technical lighting discussion. Playing is always fun, and fun is what's most important.

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Shango-ThunderStones In reply to kobaltkween [2012-08-28 16:20:27 +0000 UTC]

Yeah but also for me I just want to add some more techniques in lighting under my belt so to speak....

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kobaltkween In reply to Shango-ThunderStones [2012-08-27 20:38:32 +0000 UTC]

IDL doesn't so much give soft shadows as non-directional occlusion of indirect light. Your spot without shadows is essentially making things glow because it's lighting areas it couldn't in real life. Same goes for you specular without shadows. IDL won't replace shadows with softer ones, and in fact is getting thrown out of whack by the stuff that's brighter than it should be. Which isn't to say that's wrong, because right is looking like you want it to, not following realism.

If you just want soft shadows, you can either use depth mapped ones (which have a lot of limitations and problems), or use raytraced shadows with good blur (I'd say 6 or higher). If your shadows are grainy, just up the sampling count. I've gone up to 128 samples on shadows without much of a change in render time. I pretty much never go below 32. The default of 19 is way too low.

Yeah, IDL can do a lot of good things for lighting. I haven't had good experiences without directional lights, but that's because my scenes tend to show off the blotching of Poser's IDL. I've seen really marvelous work done in Poser with no directional lights.

I'd be happy to move to PMs, if you're interested. I'm actually pretty technical when it comes to lighting and materials. I scripted my Essential Materials to incorporate various physical concerns, and I try to keep my lights as physically based as I can inside of Poser. Blender is a lot easier that way.

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Shango-ThunderStones In reply to kobaltkween [2012-08-28 16:29:34 +0000 UTC]

Would love to pick your brains about the lights and materials also... I've managed to collect some real good forum postings from RDNA and Renderosity by a tech head named "bagginsbill" aka Ted. Very informative and helpful when it comes to lighting and materials... Little by little I'm beginning to understand the way materials and lighting combined with rendering works. There's a lot of math involved that goes right over my head at times ( more like into the stratosphere for me) but I just muddle through and just use what I can apply to my set up.

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kobaltkween In reply to Shango-ThunderStones [2012-08-29 00:52:48 +0000 UTC]

Oh, I know bagginsbill. I used his Matmatic to script my original materials. I've followed his work for a long time. I'm kind of on my own path now, and I've incorporated my own ideas, theories, and even artistry into my work. I've got a lot of physical principles coded into my Essential Materials, but I've also made them very adjustable. I can make a wide enough range of materials with them that I haven't scripted materials in a while now. Glass, metal, plastic, cloth, etc. Even using my Pearl or Marble works for skin. I actually prefer the results of those to what I get with his and snarlygribbly's already awesome EZSkin, though EZSkin is _much_ quicker and easier to apply (and by far good enough for me to use). Really, I'm talking about a very minor difference at that point. The basics are what's important, and those can be covered in a page or so.

I'll post them to dA just so they can be public, in case anyone can use the information. I'll cover man-made or terrestrial light properties (lamps, fire, magic glows), celestial light properties (suns and moons), environment lighting, gamma correction, reflections and highlights, and diffuse and SSS properties. I've got it written out now, so I can send you the text if you like. It's about a page, page and a half. I'm thinking about trying to do some visuals for it, but that will probably take a bit. I've got a lot on my plate at the moment. So you can wait, but I can't say how long it will take, or look at it now when it's a bit more raw.

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Shango-ThunderStones In reply to kobaltkween [2012-08-29 03:36:07 +0000 UTC]

Please do send me the text in its raw form. I can wait but if you like someone like me (practically a newbie) to test it out, then I would be happy to check it out for you from that standpoint.

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kobaltkween In reply to SilenceOfStars [2012-08-25 20:03:07 +0000 UTC]

Thanks so much!

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kobaltkween In reply to lil-razzle-dazzles [2012-08-25 09:33:19 +0000 UTC]

Oh! And thank you for the favorites!

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kobaltkween In reply to lil-razzle-dazzles [2012-08-25 09:29:51 +0000 UTC]

Oh, thanks so much! That's so sweet of you to say. It was really fun to make. I think you'd enjoy modeling.

I just make websites. Nothing sexy or exciting. Sorry to disappoint.

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lil-razzle-dazzles In reply to kobaltkween [2012-08-25 16:05:57 +0000 UTC]

tsss, how would that dissappoint? You're still a very talented awesome artist.

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kobaltkween In reply to LuxXeon [2012-08-25 06:00:55 +0000 UTC]

Thanks so much! Yeah, it's really too bad, but this can't work in DS alone. It's not even made with MD. MD and I didn't get along last time I tried it. I have to be the only person in the world who has more of a problem with MD than polygon modeling. I might try MD again one day, because there's some wrapping stuff I might want to do. But since I can't afford $700 to just make clothes for sale, it will only ever be small items, if any.

Even if OptiTex opens up the DS dynamic clothing market, the system requires clothes be made in a very specific way. You couldn't make clothes like these, for instance, not only because the topology is specific and deliberate rather than all randomized and unidirectional, but because the bracers and booties both have hard decorated buttons with real thickness on them.

You can do a sim in any version of Poser after P4 and export the simmed props to DS, but that seems like a lot of trouble. Not that I won't be doing that soon for Blender, but I wouldn't expect anyone else to. I just mention it because I know some dynamic clothing merchants do. There's even tutorials for it, I believe.

The wall has modeled shapes and displacement. The pattern on the wall is displacement, and the major design is a modeled shape.

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