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Published: 2011-03-03 00:06:28 +0000 UTC; Views: 2497; Favourites: 142; Downloads: 26
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"Will power does not change men. Time does not change men. Christ does." - Henry Drummond____
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Comments: 157
Actually, I have changed a great deal both over time and through willpower. And yes, I mean spiritually.
Interestingly, neither your "god" nor your "christ" have had any part in it, so I think I can safely declare your stamp to be erroneous.
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I question the validity of "your" claim. Please explain how you changed "spiritually" without God or Christ and what moral attributes you use to explain your change (perhaps the origin of the moral attributes) after you do this, explain to us how you have become the representative of "men".
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Ah, you assume that spirituality is restricted to your particular faith, or religion in general. It is not. I have found profound meaning in Asatrú, in poetry, in nature ... I could go on. I have rid myself of notions that I have been indoctrinated in since childhood, and have become a sane, rational individual despite the efforts of many a priest to the contrary.
I do not see how moral attributes are relevant to this, though. Morality is not dependent upon faith. It's dependent upon decent upbringing.
And I have never claimed to be the "representative of men". But the quote you chose makes a blanket statement about a general group designated "men". As I am biologically male, as well as human, both common usages of the word apply to me, therefore I am a subset of this group. The statement therefore applies to me as well, and in my case is clearly erroneous as demonstrated. Since the statement implies that it applies to the group of "men" in its entirety, I am part of said group and the statement does not apply to me, it can be inferred that the statement is incorrect.
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I do not presume anything. However, isn't it contradictory, in the sense of the term, to claim no need for god and then justify it with Asatrú? Isn't the term Aesir (from Asatrú) used to collectively refer to the gods whom our ancestors honored? Therefore, we conclude that your spirituality comes from a polytheistic idea. In addition, the term "spirituality" etymologically, at least, has always been associated to personal transformation in accordance with religious ideals. While it is true that in contemporary terms it has taken a mystical or subjective idea, to ignore its etymological origin is simply unwise.
You claim that morality is dependent on decent upbringing, and I agree, but the question related to where objective morality concepts come from. If one were to be honest, one would have to conclude that it is the Biblical concept of morality the only "objective" root. As a matter of fact, even our legal system is fundamentally born from the Biblical concept of morality - as Thou shall not kill, for example. I do not claim that the concept of morality is to all of us objective, as much as we can conclude that to a pedophile's mind having sex with a child is morally ok for the sake of convenience -- making it subjective. Nonetheless, in the collective social mind, morality determines that it is an evil and immoral practice in an objective sense. Therefore, applications of morality established by, lets say, someone as you, does not by default invalidate general statements applied to humanity (as "men" is used on the stamp).
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Ah, it may seem contradictory. Let me explain. I do not revere or honor the Aesir as actual, supernatural beings. I simply find the Edda quite poetic and inspiring, certainly due in no small part to it being part of the culture of my ancestors in particular. Yes, the norse/germanic faith was based on polytheism, however that does not mean that I, by extension, am a polytheist, nor any kind of theist, really. I simply see the Aesir as symbols, just as LaVeyan satanists view the biblical satan as a symbol, not an actual entity. Both worldviews are quite atheistic, neither has a need for a god.
I am well aware of the etymology of the term "spirituality". And I guess whether or not I am spiritual depends heavily upon which definition of the term you favor. Point is, while it never hurts to be aware of a term's origins, language does change and evolve over time, sometimes quite drastically, and especially in contemporary usage (I'm sure you need no example of that, but the word "faggot" would be a great one ... ).
Personally, I like to think of spirituality as connected to the act of contemplating religious ideals, ideas, ideologies and the like. Not necessarily partaking or endorsing them, but thinking about them, evaluating them, pondering them. I guess I fancy myself as somewhat of a philosopher in that regard.
I'll have to disagree at least partly - I think the question much rather is whether there actually is such a thing as objective morality.
The concept of morality endorsed in the bible was not new at the time. The code of Hammurabi is the first known document to feature moral codes of conduct, nearly a millennium older than the first compilation of the Tanakh.
And the code of Hammurabi is merely the oldest known written record of such accordances and laws, it stands to reason that certain moral paradigms have existed long before then. Thus, just because the bible also features some of those moral statements, that does not mean the bible is their root. Laws against killing and stealing were known in ancient China, as well, where christianity has remained fairly unknown until the second century AD, and has not featured prominently after that, either. Either way, the bible is not the source of those morals.
Now, whether those basic principles of morality stem from some cooperative instincts we developed when we became a more and more social species, or from some objective morality hard-wired into the universe, that's likely a matter of debate and opinion. Personally, I favor the first option, since it seems rather unlikely that, say, "Thou shalt not kill" is somehow programmed into us when for the longest part of our collective history, we've done nothing but kill each other - always, of course, with the slight addition that it's always "the others" whom we kill, never our own family, tribe, townsmen, countrymen or religious brethren. I think this instinctive in-group/out-group thinking is a good indicator that suggests morality has developed naturally over time, always with the goal of protecting and sheltering those closest to us, defending them from potentially hostile competition and the like. Since our social groups are becoming larger and larger constantly, our morality has to evolve and grow with it as well, leading to local rules and codes of conduct in tribes and villages, later laws in countries, being refined more and more over the centuries. Right now we seem to stand at the brink of another spurt of growth, as morality and law is in the progress of breaching international borders as we are slowly merging into a unified, global species. The idea of human rights is a great example of that. Interestingly, some of those rights are not to be found in the bible - quite the contrary. The equality of women, for example, is not a biblical moral ideal. Neither is the prohibition of slavery.
So, all in all, I believe the bible is of interest historically, because it showcases the moral standards of a middle-eastern, bronze-age society, and already shows some of our human tendencies to refine and reform our moral systems (as evident by the events recounted in the new testament). I do not see it as the source of morality, though, that would mean disregarding many other documents that claim similar things for themselves. I much rather believe none of them are a source, but they all are evidence of how our sense of morality changed over the course of history.
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Lol christ changed me from christian to Jashinist.
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I guess there is no other way you can learn that there are no other gods beside Him.
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Well my Lord is just as real as yours.
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Prove it, then go to any library and look up "Jesus of Nazareth"
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Heh your lord isn't even there xD
You're both just so scared of the truth, reality, you cannot take it so you make yourself believe in this childish fairly tale of god when you are too lost to see its all just an illusion you wish it was true
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I'm not starting an argument it's just, she made a stamp for the people who are Christians. Not to start a big fight with others;Just understand that I'm not trying to start an argument.
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I know and im sorry i have been quite rude i apologize ;n;
we all have our beliefs and we werent there when the universe/earth you name it was created so we cant know for sure
heck for all we know we could be living in a dish soup and earth is nothimg more than a breadcrumb in some giants spoon. heheh okay no that impossibkle but you get it right, ;3;
I know but it kind of annoys me that she says that we cant change ourselves which is not true. I once was a shy little doormat and people bullied me and pushed me aroundbut one day i decided it was enougha dn stood up for myelf and now im an outgoing straightforward person uvu
thats all, that i think its false taht we cannot change ourselves
and once again im sorry for for my rudeness before unu
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Oh it's all right! I thought you were going to be mad at me so I got a little heart attack once I saw you replied. I'm so shy but Outgoing at separate times. Thank you for understanding that I wasn't trying to start something. ^^
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no no no
im so sorry i was so mean and agh ;A;
heh yeah i know i can sometimes be a real jerk if its protecting my frind or my rights but then im really frindly and outmost loyal to my frinds ;w;
i know unu
i wasnt either idk why I even commented im just stupid at time ;ene
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It's okay! We all have the feeling to protect friends. ^^
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Hmmm... provide me the empirical evidence that he is not there as you claim, and I will provide you empirical evidence that demonstrates that your suggestion is illogical.
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Okay first of all Christians say earth was created 6000 years ago when it had been there for millions of years and scientist have proven it. Religion was first created when people didn't have a better way to explain things other than miracles and magic that is very unrealistic, but now with today's technologies we can explain them and yet still so many people were taught by their mothers who were taught by theirs who were taught by theirs and so on about the bible and such that they came to believing. It. As a child we are all naive and believe many things they tell us that is how religion is learned by most people, if believers let their child choose what they believe in it would be much smarter but they don't and that is how these things are still believed in as facts. You have memories and a book, but we have evidence
You see the bible to me is just a book something that is just as real as Harry potter or James and the giant peach, how do you know it contains the truth?
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I know this conversation is very old, and I haven't read through the rest of the conversation, but I really was hoping I could share my opinions and what I've come to learn after months of near non-stop study. It's never too late to talk about God. Please don't think I'm trying to start anything, and I'm not against you what-so-ever...I just really enjoy sharing what I've learned. (that and the fact that Jesus changed me before I ever read the Bible, and I didn't even ask for Him to [wasn't a church goer, either], all I did was cry out for truth the night before, and the next day I woke up a completely different person [that's the short version] after dreaming I was getting murdered, and spoke out a Bible verse I'd never read before) Anyway, sorry I wasn't trying to get into my testimony but I wanted to share my revelations with you...
So, first off (and I'm not trying to sound rude so sorry if this text appears as such), not 'all' Christians believe the earth is only 6,000 of years old...and those that do need to get back into their Bibles and more active in study.
Between verse 1 and 2 of Genesis, there is strong implication (of those willing to learn and ask for revelation) that there are millions of years between them. The book goes from talking about in the beginning, creation, to "replenishing" the world...you don't "Re" anything unless there was something there to begin with...right?
Applying this to science, common knowledge, and practical logic: This explains why there were hundreds of thousands of dinosaurs roaming the earth (which, could not possibly survive in todays atmosphere because it is soo much less dense with carbon monoxide and oxygen). Sap with giant mosquito’s inside have been tested and proven to hold tons more amounts of oxygen levels then our atmosphere does today; and it couldn't have ended up there unless the atmosphere was like that all over the planet when giants did roam the earth: just as biblical text also suggests.
There has been more and more discoveries of modern animals, in a much larger scale, that are dated to have lived much longer ago than anyone thought mammals did. Example: A camel you'd find living in the desert today used to be much larger, and actively lived in the Arctic (which explains why they have lumps of fat rather than water). Another important thing to note, is that in school, you're taught about "circular logic"...which is dating old fossils using rock, and dating rock using old fossils. Scientists still can't get that right to this day. And after studying more on Darwin's theory of evolution, he himself is quoted as mentioning a Creator (capital C) more than a few times in a couple of his published books because his theory was flawed: that "The fossil record does not support this theory..."
So why don't we learn about this? I believe the answer is simple:
The law of separation between church and state; because if that's not true, the next closest thing we have to truth is the Bible...and that would be in conflict to the law.
Another amazing thing to consider is that scientists know the earth is covered with evidence that there was a sudden massive flood that killed thousands of groups of animals...leaving entire pods of whales in deserts that have been dry for thousands of years, giant sea-shells (tons of them) all the way up to the very top of Mt. Everest, mammalian animals buried and surrounded by simple fish fossils, and there are hundreds of thousands of standing trees in the separated layers of sediment all over the world. I don't know, but I've never heard of trees standing for millions of years while different layers of sediment formed up around them.
There's also plenty of evidence in and around Egypt that imply Hebrew worship practices were taking place that are still even standing to this day, which also date back to the time the Bible suggests.
Another incredible note, David prophesied thousands of years ago that this world would only ever have 4 world governments leading up to 1 massive world government...or 'One World Order'. I don't know, but after God got me in his grasp, and I started researching and praying for knowledge and wisdom in all this stuff so that I wouldn't be considered gullible and foolish, what I found only strengthened my faith more than ten-fold. I've received multiple spiritual experiences ever since I came to Him, praise God, but anyway, back to David's prophesy:
Do you realize that there have been literally more than a dozen different people throughout different times on this earth that have tried valiantly to create a 5th world government (just two examples being Napoleon and Hitler) and they've all failed. There has still, to this very day, only been 4 world governments. Another amazing fact to consider: There has been a rise of talk over the last couple of years, and even tip-offs before then, of a new world order (which is interestingly enough written in latin on US currency) that would be a One World Government (just as David suggested)...it's known today as Agenda 21. Do I believe this is going to come to pass by the time I die? No...but I believe it's going to come to pass within the next 20-30 generations.
This is just one of many amazing prophetic times from the Bible that all have failed to prove wrong (including, but not limited to, the pages of biblical text that has been re-written and translated; it's been proven that nothing was changed between the original Hebrew and Sumerian texts to English even to this day, the text is the same.)
Another huge one, because I love this one almost the most, is that there is a litter of unnatural coral formations along one incredibly specific part of the Red Sea. A very random, yet supporting as evidence, land-bridge that goes underwater from a beach surrounded by tall, sharp mountains (which matches biblical description perfectly of where the Jews and Moses were getting pinned in and could not escape from the Egyptians that were coming because there was only one way to this very spot). This is when the Jews got mad at Moses for trapping them and then God split the water so they could pass through.
Anyway, littered with unnatural coral formations, and it takes coral a while to form on objects, any ecologist (or whatever they're called) know that coral cannot form in the way these pieces have in that particular spot in the sea unless there were objects there for them to grow onto, because coral can only grow on rock or wood, etc...but never randomly on sand. This odd underwater land bridge is made up of a a kind of sand that would be easy to walk on if water wasn't covering it, yet on either side of this wide bridge is a 7,000 ft trench (both sides, mind you) and the bottom of these is not made up of this sand. This litter of coral, (and even an actual bronze wheel that matches the carvings from that supposed dated time period of the Pharaoh's chariot wheel) extends all the way from one side of the sea to the other.
Now, a lot of non-believers come up with the following excuse: They could have been dumping their trash in the sea.
So then I come back with this: But there is an ocean to them right next door...now...think of this seriously...Egyptians are notorious for burying their treasures and posessions with themselves in tombs...so why on God's green earth would they suddenly decide in this ancient time period to travel 3 days out of their way, through a very specific part of land, just to spread out a bunch of broken chariots into a sea in a very specific part of the sea...when they had an ocean less than a days journey right next door? No Pharaoh I've ever heard of has ever let their metallic possessions get lost, or intentionally thrown, into a sea that is so labourous to get to.
One final bunch of details that I still get the breath taken out of me when I think about it:
There are 10 important names in the old testament that, when combined, their name meanings combine to make the ultimate statement that encompasses the entirety of the new testament:
Adam: Man
Seth: Appointed
Enoch: Mortal
Kenan: Sorrow;
Mahalalel: The Blessed God
Jared: Shall come down
Enoch: Teaching
Methuselah: His death shall bring
Lamech: The despairing
Noah: Rest, Comfort
Okay, sorry for the word-splurge, but that was just scratching the surface of everything I've discovered and have been studying. Again, please don't try to argue with this because I'm not going to argue with you. You can tell me every reason why you don't believe any of this supports the bible but I will legitimately respond with acceptance and offerance of prayer, whether or not you want it.
I'm actually building a website featuring all the evidence that supports the Bible; if you're ever interested in viewing it for any reason, I'd be more than happy to send you the link...it also features the full descriptive revelations and the born-again experience I had.
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You seem to be quite misinformed. I am an old earth creationist. I believe the universe to be billions of years.
As it relates to miracles, I have a science background (2x). Yet, my friend Delia Knox was miraculously healed by God recently. I work in health care and understand that there is NO WAY that it can be explained by natural means.
Are you going to present empirical evidence that demonstrates that God does not exist as you claimed, or is this your best shot? No evidence?
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Oh of course he sure did! Don't make me laugh " miraculously healed by god " as if I can believe that. Okay tell me how could it be possible to just magically heal someone like that?
There is much more than what I said but saying it all would be too much time and I see I'm just wasting my breath on you.
So how about you take a turn, so far I don't believe the magic healing shit so tell me something that will convince me there is a god.
Go ahead I'm listening
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It is very difficult to consider any debate reputtable when an individual express him/herself as you do. Delia is my friend for decades. We ministered together for years. She has been wheelchair bound most of her life. She was paralyzed (severed spine) after an automobile accident over 23 years ago. www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYjM4x... As a Health Care Administrator at one of the largest institutions in NYC, I am aware of the medical implications and the requirement of a "creative" miracle. The miracle has been well documented and made the news. It does not bother me if some skeptics may question the same as I know from first hand the enormity of the miracle, the medical implications, etc.
BTW, you have NOT provided any empirical evidence to demonstrate that God does not exist. However, I will provide you empirical evidence that to deny His existence is illogical: levite.deviantart.com/art/Quan... feel free to provide a serious scientific rebuttal.
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I know it's been a while since you two held this conversation...but I decided to give them a tiny piece of what I had to offer them as far as my knowledge and understanding of God is...just in case you were interested, and since you believe in God, too (Yay! See you in eternity!), I wanted to share with you what I shared with them because I think, even as a believer, this is stuff that is more than fun to read/learn/heart about!
I hope you have a very blessed Merry Christmas and a lovely New Year!
"I know this conversation is very old, and I haven't read through the rest of the conversation, but I really was hoping I could share my opinions and what I've come to learn after months of near non-stop study. It's never too late to talk about God. Please don't think I'm trying to start anything, and I'm not against you what-so-ever...I just really enjoy sharing what I've learned. (that and the fact that Jesus changed me before I ever read the Bible, and I didn't even ask for Him to [wasn't a church goer, either], all I did was cry out for truth the night before, and the next day I woke up a completely different person [that's the short version] after dreaming I was getting murdered, and spoke out a Bible verse I'd never read before) Anyway, sorry I wasn't trying to get into my testimony but I wanted to share my revelations with you...
So, first off (and I'm not trying to sound rude so sorry if this text appears as such), not 'all' Christians believe the earth is only 6,000 of years old...and those that do need to get back into their Bibles and more active in study.
Between verse 1 and 2 of Genesis, there is strong implication (of those willing to learn and ask for revelation) that there are millions of years between them. The book goes from talking about in the beginning, creation, to "replenishing" the world...you don't "Re" anything unless there was something there to begin with...right?
Applying this to science, common knowledge, and practical logic: This explains why there were hundreds of thousands of dinosaurs roaming the earth (which, could not possibly survive in todays atmosphere because it is soo much less dense with carbon monoxide and oxygen). Sap with giant mosquito’s inside have been tested and proven to hold tons more amounts of oxygen levels then our atmosphere does today; and it couldn't have ended up there unless the atmosphere was like that all over the planet when giants did roam the earth: just as biblical text also suggests.
There has been more and more discoveries of modern animals, in a much larger scale, that are dated to have lived much longer ago than anyone thought mammals did. Example: A camel you'd find living in the desert today used to be much larger, and actively lived in the Arctic (which explains why they have lumps of fat rather than water). Another important thing to note, is that in school, you're taught about "circular logic"...which is dating old fossils using rock, and dating rock using old fossils. Scientists still can't get that right to this day. And after studying more on Darwin's theory of evolution, he himself is quoted as mentioning a Creator (capital C) more than a few times in a couple of his published books because his theory was flawed: that "The fossil record does not support this theory..."
So why don't we learn about this? I believe the answer is simple:
The law of separation between church and state; because if that's not true, the next closest thing we have to truth is the Bible...and that would be in conflict to the law.
Another amazing thing to consider is that scientists know the earth is covered with evidence that there was a sudden massive flood that killed thousands of groups of animals...leaving entire pods of whales in deserts that have been dry for thousands of years, giant sea-shells (tons of them) all the way up to the very top of Mt. Everest, mammalian animals buried and surrounded by simple fish fossils, and there are hundreds of thousands of standing trees in the separated layers of sediment all over the world. I don't know, but I've never heard of trees standing for millions of years while different layers of sediment formed up around them.
There's also plenty of evidence in and around Egypt that imply Hebrew worship practices were taking place that are still even standing to this day, which also date back to the time the Bible suggests.
Another incredible note, David prophesied thousands of years ago that this world would only ever have 4 world governments leading up to 1 massive world government...or 'One World Order'. I don't know, but after God got me in his grasp, and I started researching and praying for knowledge and wisdom in all this stuff so that I wouldn't be considered gullible and foolish, what I found only strengthened my faith more than ten-fold. I've received multiple spiritual experiences ever since I came to Him, praise God, but anyway, back to David's prophesy:
Do you realize that there have been literally more than a dozen different people throughout different times on this earth that have tried valiantly to create a 5th world government (just two examples being Napoleon and Hitler) and they've all failed. There has still, to this very day, only been 4 world governments. Another amazing fact to consider: There has been a rise of talk over the last couple of years, and even tip-offs before then, of a new world order (which is interestingly enough written in latin on US currency) that would be a One World Government (just as David suggested)...it's known today as Agenda 21. Do I believe this is going to come to pass by the time I die? No...but I believe it's going to come to pass within the next 20-30 generations.
This is just one of many amazing prophetic times from the Bible that all have failed to prove wrong (including, but not limited to, the pages of biblical text that has been re-written and translated; it's been proven that nothing was changed between the original Hebrew and Sumerian texts to English even to this day, the text is the same.)
Another huge one, because I love this one almost the most, is that there is a litter of unnatural coral formations along one incredibly specific part of the Red Sea. A very random, yet supporting as evidence, land-bridge that goes underwater from a beach surrounded by tall, sharp mountains (which matches biblical description perfectly of where the Jews and Moses were getting pinned in and could not escape from the Egyptians that were coming because there was only one way to this very spot). This is when the Jews got mad at Moses for trapping them and then God split the water so they could pass through.
Anyway, littered with unnatural coral formations, and it takes coral a while to form on objects, any ecologist (or whatever they're called) know that coral cannot form in the way these pieces have in that particular spot in the sea unless there were objects there for them to grow onto, because coral can only grow on rock or wood, etc...but never randomly on sand. This odd underwater land bridge is made up of a a kind of sand that would be easy to walk on if water wasn't covering it, yet on either side of this wide bridge is a 7,000 ft trench (both sides, mind you) and the bottom of these is not made up of this sand. This litter of coral, (and even an actual bronze wheel that matches the carvings from that supposed dated time period of the Pharaoh's chariot wheel) extends all the way from one side of the sea to the other.
Now, a lot of non-believers come up with the following excuse: They could have been dumping their trash in the sea.
So then I come back with this: But there is an ocean to them right next door...now...think of this seriously...Egyptians are notorious for burying their treasures and posessions with themselves in tombs...so why on God's green earth would they suddenly decide in this ancient time period to travel 3 days out of their way, through a very specific part of land, just to spread out a bunch of broken chariots into a sea in a very specific part of the sea...when they had an ocean less than a days journey right next door? No Pharaoh I've ever heard of has ever let their metallic possessions get lost, or intentionally thrown, into a sea that is so labourous to get to.
One final bunch of details that I still get the breath taken out of me when I think about it:
There are 10 important names in the old testament that, when combined, their name meanings combine to make the ultimate statement that encompasses the entirety of the new testament:
Adam: Man
Seth: Appointed
Enoch: Mortal
Kenan: Sorrow;
Mahalalel: The Blessed God
Jared: Shall come down
Enoch: Teaching
Methuselah: His death shall bring
Lamech: The despairing
Noah: Rest, Comfort
Okay, sorry for the word-splurge, but that was just scratching the surface of everything I've discovered and have been studying. Again, please don't try to argue with this because I'm not going to argue with you. You can tell me every reason why you don't believe any of this supports the bible but I will legitimately respond with acceptance and offerance of prayer, whether or not you want it.
I'm actually building a website featuring all the evidence that supports the Bible; if you're ever interested in viewing it for any reason, I'd be more than happy to send you the link...it also features the full descriptive revelations and the born-again experience I had."
I hope that I didn't waste your time and that this was a pleasure to read.
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Catastrophe Theory or Ruin Reconstruction - Interval by L3V17e 👍: 0 ⏩: 1
This theory should not be confused with the gap theory, while there is a resemblance in some data. The theory says that between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 there was an indefinite period of time where the geological ages took place; during this period, there were about 200,000 years and prehistoric animals, where a supernatural catastrophe occurred on the planet and caused the extinction of living organisms of its era. It believes that at Genesis 1:3 it speaks of a reconstruction or "renewal" (see Psalms 104:29-31). This is similar to what we expect in the future with our existing universe (2 Peter 3:13; Rev. 21:1).
In Genesis 1 and John 1, we see the term "in the beginning." This word, "beginning," applies to an indefinite period of time. We can refer to a start but nobody can necessarily determine when this beginning took place. It was not until we examine the first day, when it is better defined; this doesn't happen until the Genesis verse 3-5. As mentioned often, in the same way that we have determined that the Bible is the Story of the Redemption of Man, we also know that it is not the story of the fall of Lucifer, or the dinosaurs. Notwithstanding, we do understand that Word does speak of this slightly. Verses 1 and 2 speak of a chaotic or disorderly creation which is not indicative of the essence we know of God. The question then is why it was it chaotic and empty? It is God a God of disorder or chaos? We need a better explanation. If God is not chaotic, how is it possible for the Earth to end in that state?
Once a brother mentioned that he does not see Lucifer mentioned in verses 1 and 2 of Genesis 1 and therefore we must not represent what does not exist. Clearly he would be correct if proper rules of biblical interpretation were that simplistic. However, is there somewhere else in the "whole" biblical context that gives us this reference or possibility? There are people who do believe it. To answer this question we will examine two parallel passages in Psalms 18:7-16-2 and Samuel 22:8-16. These are Davidian passages that take a prophetic definition, when not able to be applied to the common and ordinary context:
Psalms 18:7-16 (NIV): "The earth trembled and quaked, and the foundations of the mountains shook; they trembled because he was angry. Smoke rose from his nostrils; consuming fire came from his mouth, burning coals blazed out of it. He parted the heavens and came down; dark clouds were under his feet. He mounted the cherubim and flew; he soared on the wings of the wind. He made darkness his covering, his canopy around him— the dark rain clouds of the sky. Out of the brightness of his presence clouds advanced, with hailstones and bolts of lightning. The Lord thundered from heaven; the voice of the Most High resounded. He shot his arrows and scattered the enemy, with great bolts of lightning he routed them. The valleys of the sea were exposed and the foundations of the earth laid bare at your rebuke, Lord, at the blast of breath from your nostrils. He reached down from on high and took hold of me; he drew me out of deep waters."
This passage, when seen in contrast and applied to Genesis 1:1-2, seems to indicate that when Lucifer was cast out of heaven to Earth, a great judgment came upon the Earth by the wrath of the Lord and God did not think he was worthy to participate in His creation as in "the beginning." As it speaks of a Cherub, we can understand who the subject of this judgment, Lucifer was. We can therefore, presuppose that it is possible that the dinosaurs (animals - not men) were part of this original creation made in "the beginning", taking into account that empirical scientific evidence seems to demonstrate that these animals were not contemporary with Adam and Eve. It must be noted that opponents of this idea usually use Romans 5: 12 as a basis to dismiss it, by stating that this would mean that we have "death" before the fall (related to dinosaur death). However, the book of Romans speaks of the justification and redemption of "man" and not the animals. Applying this passage and 1 Corinthians 15 to animals would be stretching the truth of the word. The interpretation of the text MUST include its context.
Proponents of the gap theory believe that sub-humans without souls existed before Adam and Eve... However, that is contrary to the literal story and Biblical exegesis as we discussed in class.
Something that intrigues me from this passage (Ps. 18) is that while studying the possibilities of the cause of the extinction of the dinosaurs, I read about a theory called Nemesis. The state created by this possible condition is almost identical to the scientific description we see in this biblical passage almost word by word.
Renewal:
Now, if it were true that the chaos and catastrophe was indeed the product of God’s judgment upon Lucifer y his angels, which resulted in the death of the prehistoric animals (dinosaurs), we would have to reconcile the remaining verses of Genesis 1:3 and going forward as a process of “renewal” of the existing earth with the end of bringing forth God’s master plan, the creation of humanity and the history of redemption.
renew (l. -are):
1: to make like new : restore to freshness, vigor, or perfection
Chadash = renew , renewed , repair , restore, restored.
To a Christian waiting for the glorious day of Christ coming, we await NEW heavens and a NEW Earth, and therefore, this idea should not surprise anyone, as it is an understood concept we are familiar with (see 2 Peter 3:13 and Revelation 21:1). Verily, God is capable of doing this and there would be no reason why He could had not done it in Genesis 1. Psalms 104:29-31 sheds some light on the subject:
Psalms 104:29-31 "... Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth. The glory of the Lord shall endure for ever: the Lord shall rejoice in his works."
In conclusion, it is possible to object to this idea. However, of all theories, I find this one to be the most sound.
Wow that was...descriptive...but of course anyone can object any verse from the Bible so I'm not surprise nor overwhelmed here.
Thankfully, for me, God has made His revelations simple, and after asking and praying for wisdom and revelation from the Holy Spirit that dwells in those who desire it, I have a simple revelation to give you!
This is not to be confused with mans' own understanding, I trust in the Lord God and this is what He's taught me, for God is not the author of confusion, and His truth is simple... (you'll likely disagree or use many words to put it down but this isn't to convince you of anything, and nothing will change my mind of it because of how it was presented to me...but, again, it's fun to share to those who'll listen)
In the 'beginning', God created the universe.
He created the earth, forming it in the palm of his hand.
There was no light given, yet; for the earth was lit with His glory.
He created the dinosaurs, and they all were good, getting along with each other, because God is good.
The atmosphere was much unlike todays', suited perfectly for the giant creatures and foliage to thrive.
There was one land-mass, and all the dinosaurs lived on on it, while all the creatures that swam dwelled in a single ocean.
Dinosaurs had skin resembling that of a crocodile and alligator. Crocodiles and alligators cannot be out of water for long periods of time, or hunks of their skin will fall away, causing health issues, and therefore making swimming and water a requirement to their comfortable habitats. This applied to dinosaurs as well, but of course, weren't all made swimmers.
The atmosephere was given a vapor shield: God poured two hand-fulls of water into an atmospheric layer above the earth, and it created a constant mist in the air that kept the skin of the gigantic beasts moisturized.
During the time of the dinosaurs: No sun was required, because the earth was already lit with the glory of God, and even the daytime was of a different color than we know now. The atmosphere around earth had a layer filled with billions of gallons of water that created a constant mist in the air, both for the benefit of the dinosaurs, and the massive amount of foliage thereon to support their lives and shelter.
But this was not all that took place during that time: these were the times when Lucifer was going from angel to angel in heaven, testing them to see who he could get to side with him against the most High.
Now, Lucifer was made differently than any other of the angels of heaven. Lucifer was intended to lead worship in heaven, and God gave him glory by embellishing him with beautiful gemstones, that resembled those that lie in God's heart, these are the stones of fire...for God's love burns like a mighty fire for all things, radiating within and throughout His being. Not only did God embellish him with beautiful gemstones, but he gave him power to create music. When Lucifer would lead worship, he would step inside God and begin creating music. In God, there is no beginning, and no end. Inside God is a Holy Mount, and a river of ever-flowing life, where we lived together before we were given a body here on this earth. He knew us before He knit us in our mothers' womb, knitting our souls to a fleshly body: for if you were not attached, you would have speedily returned back home within God, and rightfully so.
Lucifer boasted within himself his own beauty, for being made differently and most beautifully. He boasted with his unique gift to create music, the only angel who was gifted with any kind of creation. His gifts were his downfall, and then sin was found in him.
When Lucifer would step inside God to lead worship, he saw us playing in the river of life, and became jealous toward us. He knew we were unlike all angels, set above and created as the children of the Most High. He envied, and despised, us.
Lucifer began going around heaven, and for decades he tested all the angels that lived there: some falling for his lies of exaltation simply, and others turning their backs to his wrongdoings. God was not ignorant to this, and the angels came to him saying what wrong Lucifer was doing throughout heaven, and God said: "Leave it!" God desired they tell him not that He knew, that He may see who all would go against Him. Because God kept His peace, and allowed Lucifer to continue leading worship, he became even more convinced he was better than the Most High, embelleshed with gemstones like that of His mighty heart, gifted with a type of creation, and getting away with deception.
One day, after Lucifer had finally tested all the angels of heaven, he went on as usual to lead worship; but the doors were closed. Lucifer could not enter into the dwelling room of God. He realized he'd been discovered, then God turned and cast all those, who fell for Lucifer's lies, out of heaven. Enraged, they made a wilderness of the earth. They caused the dinosaurs to begin to kill each other, and sin against each other.
God finally became sick of the wickedness that had befallen the earth, and with his wrath poked a hole in the vapor shield, causing billions of gallons of water to pour out onto the earth; splitting the land-masses and flooding it. Once all the water had drained from the vapor shield, God blew on the earth: freezing it. And there Lucifer and his followers stayed until God blew on the earth once more, melting the ice that had consumed the planet.
God then made the sun, and replenished the earth with creatures and foliage.
Adam was created, and he named the animals that were in the garden, companions, and gave them names like us, as they had already been given titles just as man already had the title: man. Then Eve was created to be a companion to Adam, and to bear children with him. They were given a single command from the Lord, but Lucifer had overtaken a serpent of the garden, and the serpent climbed into the tree with his feet: and just as he tricked a multitude of angels, he began to deceive Eve, and spoke to her, convincing her to eat from the forbidden fruit, who turned and convinced Adam to do likewise.
God knew what had been done, and cursed the serpent to slide on it's belly forever, cursed the animals that they could no longer speak, and cause condemnation, and gave judgement unto Adam and Eve for sinning against Him: whose seeds would now be poisoned by the forbidden fruit. Men had fallen, but God had already fallen in love with man in his fallen state, and looked to help them return home, and has been trying to ever since.
You don't have to agree with me on this, but I know it to be truth so I enjoy sharing it, nonetheless.
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While I fundamentally have no issues with your presentation of creation, I would counsel you that you seem to make the Bible say more than it actually does. Could you biblically corroborate every statement you presented or this is what "you" think happened?
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It's not a think when the Holy Spirit is involved, my friend! I know because God has put His word in me!
God has made it clear you can be given revelation if you seek it with your heart! :joy:
Matthew 7: 7-9
“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone?
James 1:5
"If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him."
So, in light of my faith, it would be hard to stick to mans' own understanding of what I say; though most of it is lightly hinted in the Bible...just like how the Bible isn't telling us everything about heaven, does that mean good things of God cannot be believed because it is not highlighted in the Bible? Absolutely not...but we must not forget the Bible is to teach man his way to salvation, not to describe every single detail that ever was since the beginning and every last detail about our Lord God. It would be infinitely long in that case, and no man would be able to finish reading it.
I will start with the scientific stuff:
Scientists have known and believed for a long time the landmass used to be singular, because you can fit them all together like a puzzle piece. There is a giant hole that has been in our atmosphere since before man discovered it, and the only somewhat realistic theory or excuse they have for it is that the giant meteor that killed off the dinosaurs created it, but in turn this statement makes just as much sense when they both hold the same amount of evidence. It's also the only hole in the atmosphere, no other meteor has done this, if that case were true....but in my heart, it's not. Also there's plenty of evidence for an "ice age" well how could there have been one of those with God around? This seems to make the most amount of sense and when He shared it with me it was easy to understand.
Here's some Biblical stuff to back up the attitude and description of Lucifer:
Isaiah 14: 13-15
"‘I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’"
Jude 1:6
"And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling..."
Ezekiel 28: 1-6; 13-17
“Because your heart is proud, and you have said, ‘I am a god,
I sit in the seat of the gods, in the heart of the seas,’ yet you are but a man, and no god, though you make your heart like the heart of a god—you are indeed wiser than Daniel; no secret is hidden from you; by your wisdom and your understanding you have made wealth for yourself, and have gathered gold and silver into your treasuries; by your great wisdom in your trade you have increased your wealth, and your heart has become proud in your wealth—therefore thus says the Lord God: Because you make your heart like the heart of a god,"
-
"You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared.
You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.
"You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till unrighteousness was found in you.
In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence in your midst, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and I destroyed you, O guardian cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
"Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I exposed you before kings, to feast their eyes on you"
Genesis 3:1-5
Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God actually say, ‘You shall not eat of any tree in the garden’?” And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’” But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
Genesis 1: 14-15
"The Lord God said to the serpent, 'Because you have done this, cursed are you above all livestock and above all beasts of the field; on your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life. I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.”
John 3:16 being a good example of God keeping the fallen slate instead of starting anew
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."
Revelation 4:3
"And he who sat there had the appearance of jasper and carnelian, and around the throne was a rainbow that had the appearance of an emerald.
1 Peter 2:4
"As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious,"
Acts 2:2-4 Here we see the fire being described as God's spiritual and ever-burning love for us and not a literal fire
"And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance."
Matthew 5:14
“You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden"
Romans 8:29
"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers."
James 1:17
"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."
Also, have you ever read the Book of Enoch? I know it didn't make it into canonial scripture, but it is referenced to, and even quoted from. It's interesting and it also helps shed greater light on the fall of man and why man believes the way he does. I would say that book is a great example of "extra details" that were not needed to be included in scripture because it was not teaching about how to love and become saved, it was just extra stuff if ya know what I mean. The Bible is like an instruction manual for love and compassion, rather than a science textbook. I hope I shed at least a little bit of light on most what I said. Also, I don't know why is showing up; it's probably because I copy/pasted a lot of these verses
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Sorry, remember that essentially I have no problem with the presentation, but I do believe that you have some extra-biblical opinion in the same. I would caution you to present it as the same... I am also filled with the Holy Spirit and I caution you to separate your "theoretical" opinion from what the Word does not say. I am a science major and I understand what the evolutionary tautology teaches regarding the separation of the continents - of course, I could contend that it was God who made the initial mass and with his hands separated the same. But of course, I do not feel that that affects faith at all to accept it either way. Regarding the book of Enoch, while the book of Enoch and others (Book of the Wars, Num 21:14; Book of Jashar, Joshua 10:13) are in fact referenced in Scriptures, it is not inspired by God and a reason why it does not appear in our canon of Scriptures. For example, I could quote a book on HIV and say that full blown aids can lead to death, but the fact that I am quoting a truth, does not mean that suddenly this HIV book becomes inspired, just as we do not believe we must hang ourselves simply because Judas Iscariot did it and it is mentioned in Scriptures. BTW, I have a copy of the book enoch.
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:u
I think you misunderstood part of what I said...
We're given the Word to learn from, to study, to know in our hearts, and to help us be closer to God and better people: dead to the flesh but alive in the spirit.
I agree that it does not effect faith and therefore is not a danger to salvation but I didn't read this anywhere, he gave me this knowledge through revelation. Now we could say it was Satan dressed as an angel of light who gave me this revelation, but then it would be full of things that would pull me away from the faith...and it's not. It's just making it line up with the science of our planet more thoroughly.
The only extra-biblical things I have, however, are still highlighted by words in scripture, and just as you can't take everything in it literally (as in when it describes us believers as being sheep, etc.) there are things you can, and being a light in my father before I came here makes more sense to me when you read the "Father of lights" than anything else. Otherwise, He'd just have it written the Creator or Lord of Lights, but it's not...
Funny though because I wasn't going to go for it right away, I wanted something to back the revelation up and after watching hours and hours of different interviews, videos, etc.. I've come to learn that even children are describing the balls of lights they saw floating in and around God when they died and came back...pretty powerful stuff, but supported both scripture and my revelation none-the-less.
I could explain this same instance for the holy mount of God that is in God that is where we were before we came here and is represented, or shadowed to, using the example of the mothers' womb. I also didn't bring any part of Enoch into that revelation what-so-ever, or any other book that is not part of the Bible. I'm not ignorant enough to change the word of God, but I hunger enough to learn at a spiritual rather than earthly understanding. The Bible says a lot of things, and it also claims that "No eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor mind thought unless it be revealed to them by the Father" which implies that there are many of us who may have been blessed in this same way to revelation thanks to our hunger for it and the love of the Lord to bless us with knowledge and wisdom by leaning on his understanding.
Thanks for listening though and putting mindful thought into it.
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I looked up "Jesus of Nazareth" and got alot of religious books. 
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As stated, "religious" books... therefore, not in the comics section, as yours.
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Religious books and comics are both fictional, so therefore on the same general level.
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You could hope for it... However, the "reality" is that the Bible is second to none. It is a compilation of historic books that have stood the ages. Of course, kids who dedicate their lives to comic books don't understand this yet.
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Lol just because its more prevalent and has been around for a while doesnt mean anything.
Heres a basic explanation of Jashinism.
[link]
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What? Upset that it is second to none?
Ummm... let's see... In the begining God created the heavens and the earth... Adam and Eve were made... yep, it is the oldest belief.
Thank you for the link, you will be quite surprised to know what I in fact know about Jashinism.
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Lol nope not upset.
Lol hope you know there are other religions older than Christianity/Judaism ism, so its not the oldest belief.
I dont believe you do considering what some of the things you have said.
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I know my history... do you know yours? Take care.
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"Thank you for the link, you will be quite surprised to know what I in fact know about Jashinism."
"As stated, "religious" books... therefore, not in the comics section, as yours."
"It is a compilation of historic books that have stood the ages. Of course, kids who dedicate their lives to comic books don't understand this yet."
So based on your last statements, you knew nothing about Jashinism, considering you only attributed it to something in a comic.
[link]
Watch 4:30 onward.
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Let's cut to the chase... do you "actually" believe in Jashinism simply because it exists? Only a fool will believe so. Therefore, what is your argument?
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Lol cut to the chase? Dont like looking like a fool do you?
Lol only a fool believes in a different religion than you do? Such a logical person you must be lmao!
Lol it says only christ changes people, and I merely pointed out that he changed my religion.
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I have just spent 7 days in the hospital as a patient... I don't have time for childish ideas, therefore, stop acting like one.
Again, "Will power does not change men. Time does not change men. Christ does." Why don't you know this? Because you confuse God with religion and you therefore don't know the God of the "religion".
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Lol thats not my problem. Also, Im not acting like a child.
"God" is a term mostly used in Judeaism and Christianity to describe their deity.
You are the one being childish.
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I rest my case.
So tell us, how did Christ change you against everything he stands for?
"Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: I am the First and I am the Last; besides Me there is no God." Isaiah 44:6
I would love to read your "rational" thought on that.
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Lol whatever you say.
Simple. I dont like that he isnt consistent. By that, I mean since there are so many different versions of the bible in different time periods, some little details are changed about him and the rest of the bible. Hence, not consistent.
Lol rational thought? Ok. Its biased. You are only getting one side of the story, yet choose to denounce any other side that arises. For instance, you seem to think there is only one god, yet I believe mine exists as well, yet you dismiss it as something only a fool could believe in.
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:smh:
Wait! You said, "Christ changed me from christian to Jashinist." Your answer does not demonstrate your claim, it demonstrates that YOU chose who to believe in based on your misinformation of the facts.
CONSISTENCY:
You are obviously misinformed by obvious skeptic and bias misinformation. My friend, I possess a degree in Bible Theology and Christian Education, I can honestly say that I have dedicated my life to the serious study and teaching of the subject. Although there are about 300,000 individual variations of the New Testament text in the manuscripts, this number is very misleading when not understood, as skeptics do. Most of the differences are completely inconsequential as spelling errors, inverted phrases, and the like. (see Daniel Wallace, “The Majority Text and the Original Text: Are They Identical?” Bibliotheca Sacra 148, 590 (1991): 157–58). Of the remaining differences, or in the entire 20,000 lines of text, only 40 lines are in doubt (about 400 words), and none affects any significant doctrine. This means that the Greek text from which we derive our New Testament translations is 99.5 percent pure.
FOOLS:
There are people that believe in the "chupacabra" and bigfoot. Does that make them rational individuals? If not, then let us speak of rational thought that leads to believe God exists or your so-called god. I present you Jesus Christ. What do you present?
Now, taking into account that 2000 years ago we had no press... this is nothing but REMARKABLE and contrary to the non-consistent" argument you presupposed.
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The inconsistent form of christ in various bibles and texts lead me to my beliefs. If that was not the case, I wouldnt have been deterred.
Lol you seem to think I was skeptic. I wasnt, I was raised catholic. I read a few versions of the bible and saw the differences myself. Thats not being skeptic, its being observant.
I present Lord Jashin. My god is just as real as your god, whether or not you believe that. You only know what your books tell you, and they tell you what you want to know or what they think you should know. By all means if your god is the one and only god, I ask you to prove it. Send your god to me.
If they had no methods of press, then explain the manuscripts and other texts being sent all over the world. Its called trading bro lol that was their version of news. Send the texts from country to country via trading.
Lol I dont see why you feel the need to attack the credibility of my gods existence, when you cant even prove you are correct about it. You suggested it was something out of a comic, and I provided a link that disproved that. You then proclaimed only a fool would believe in my Lord. It seems you are the fool here.
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"various" bibles? That excuse worked 10-20 years ago... but no longer. The original Alexandrian Greek and Hebrew passages are readily available to ANY serious Biblical Scholar. Now go back and read the facts I gave you about the consistency of the Bible and stop using "version" excuses.
Forgive me, I was born as a "practicing" Catholic, I was an Altar Boy and in my house I was responsible for the Rosary prayer on Wednesdays, etc. etc. and sorry, I am hardly impressed with the fact that you was a so-called catholic who read a few versions -- Nonsense!
I repeat,
FOOLS:
There are people that believe in the "chupacabra" and bigfoot. Does that make them rational individuals? If not, then let us speak of rational thought that leads to believe God exists or your so-called god. I present you Jesus Christ. What do you present?
Guess what... NOTHING. You have no logical reason or claim to your so-called god. Do you believe blindly? I do not, I believe in Jesus.
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