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Light-Tricks In reply to jeroenbrugman [2012-08-03 15:33:43 +0000 UTC]

Thanks very much, they're very much Welsh/Romano-British. This was originally drafted during 5th edition, are combat squads no longer an option? Either way, this is definitely not a Codex Astartes Chapter, and deploys Scouts, in addition to the recruits/neophytes that are all veterans. The definition of Veteran Sergeant there was "Veteran Sergeant" as in the old rank rather than a veteran Sergeant - the capilisation being intentional. Just going with what fluff is out therr, and if its not contradicted in the rules I generally assume it still exists in fluff terms - hoprfully I've not missed anything :/

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jeroenbrugman In reply to Light-Tricks [2012-08-04 20:19:17 +0000 UTC]

From reading your description, I figure you are more or less using a space wolf variant, instead of a codex marine chapter.
These have wolf guard battle leaders (what you call Veteran Sergeants) to assist the wolflord, as well as having self contained companies (as you describe), instead of a company having to draw all it's veteran units from the 1st company, and it's scouts from it's 10th as per codex marines.
Space wolves however, do not use combat squads, nor do they have sergeants, perse (wolf guard squad/pack leaders are a separate choice on the chart).

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Light-Tricks In reply to jeroenbrugman [2012-08-04 20:44:52 +0000 UTC]

There are similarities there, and I did briefly conside using Codex: SW, although on the whole it doesn't quite fit the Chapter. The idea of my parallel to the Codex Veteran Sergeants was a more on the fly thing as it's always seemed like a massive gap in the organisational arrangement of Space Marines - where you have Company level command and then next under that is Squad... doesn't seem quite right. Combat teams aren't too important either, but the rules of the standard Codex Space Marines still suit the Chapter slightly better even if they don't follow the Codex Astartes organisation which isn't really refelcted in the rules when the models are on the table.

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jeroenbrugman In reply to Light-Tricks [2012-08-05 21:04:45 +0000 UTC]

That's true, organization doesn't show on the field. And you should allways go with what feels right to you.

The gap in Space marine organisation used to be filled with a Lieutenant, they scratched that in 3rd edition, with the exception of the space wolf battle commander.
I guess they're going for the whole centurion deal, 1 leader, 100 fighting men, figuring that with the chaplain, master of the forge, and librarian they're giving enough two wound characters to the codex.

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Light-Tricks In reply to jeroenbrugman [2012-08-06 00:28:49 +0000 UTC]

Yeah, they're closer to Lieutenants more than anything. How long have you been wargaming?
That makes sense with the Centurion parallel, hadn't though of that before

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jeroenbrugman In reply to Light-Tricks [2012-08-06 12:19:36 +0000 UTC]

I've been at this for about 20 odd years or so (sporting about 7 or 8 armies (in some cases hordes seems more appropriate) in 40K + 4 in Fantasy, as well as a large variety of models from other brands, none of them fully painted...)

The 40K empire seems to be largely based on the roman empire, with a very dominant church and some other totalitarian elements thrown in for flavor (like the political officer), so the centurion parallell isn't too far fetched.

Basically a company has more command than just it's captain. They have a chaplain for spiritual guidance, a Librarian as scribe/chronicler and a number of tech marines and servitors to keep their equipment running, and that's just the on table support personel.
There are bound to be hundreds of support personel that never make it to the battlefield, allthough that would be a good excuse to include Imperial Guard allies (you can use those for basically any support, from Mechanicus Skittari to Adeptus Arbites to armed flight crew, if you know how to work a codex. (and I mean make use of it to make for interesting additions to your army, not abuse it to get the most out of it.)

Space marine squads themselves are led by Sergeants. 10 Sergeants to a Captain, seems sufficient for all command needs if no one will question your orders. You need to remember that Space Marines are fanatical warriors, whose command structure has also been based on Medieval Knightly orders. They are not grunts.

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Light-Tricks In reply to jeroenbrugman [2012-08-06 18:47:13 +0000 UTC]

I've also been at this for close to 20 years with a few hordes myself - plus historical stuff of various periods Do you do any historicals yourself? The Citadel Miniatures factory used to be based in my hometown and we have Forge World sculptors and Rogue Trader / early WHFB artists at my old gaming club (and GW HQ down the road) it's hard to not be involved where I'm from lol.

That's very true on the Empire, the more recent references to the Council of Nikaea being a particularly un-subtle reference lol. I've been working on some theology for the Ecclesiarchy recently based on early Christianity to fit in line with this for some Age of Apostasy games. I hadn't thought of the Centruion parallel specifically, despite the aesthetics lol.

Absolutely agree in the command/support point, the idea I was on about was to make those "invisible" officers more visible to a degree, more for the sake of the chart that the fluff. I just mentiond the parallels I did in the comments as I don't like to assume what people do or do not know about the fluff (and I focus on the fluff side heavily) so I just stick to the pertinent basic details. I love the fact that there are endless serfs and Chapter servants that keep the whole machine running but are unsung heroes of sorts lol. I've just written a short story about a completely anonymous Administratum scribe, it's the "non-military" side of 40k that I find more interesting ironically.

I do't know if it's clear on the chart itself (which obviously can't fit the reems of fluff I have on lol) the Company level Librarians and Chaplains (or rather Chaplain-Apothecaries) are part of the Councils at the top of the Chart. I think it mentions that the each Company has the equivalent of an Epistolary (known as Awdur) and in the case of the Librarium, these are the ones that sit on the senior council.

I converted some skitarii rather a while ago, so it would be nice to get them on the table with the new allies rules. Absolutely hate beardy play, when making house rules for units myself and our gaming group have as many characterful negative rules as positive ones. This Marine Chapter for example, has rules representing a limited armoury, which can limit vehicles and negatively affect armour saves...

Absolutely, I wasn't so much on about the need for orders at certain levels, I just made a few invisble elements a little more visible just for the sake of the chart. It's only a rough draft and a “proof of concept” so just needed something to fill the gap... I don't know if you read my blog but I've just done a couple of lengthy posts on just how Marines aren't grunts, and you won't get the best out of the fluff if you ignore their medieval/pre-gunpowder aesthetic.

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jeroenbrugman In reply to Light-Tricks [2012-08-07 09:43:42 +0000 UTC]

Understood. The chart looks good so keep at it. Notthingham, another place I've been meaning to visit for a long time. Yes that close to the fire, you can't help getting burned.

I do agree with you that rules should be for fun stuff, not monsterous creations (allthough... have you seen those new nurglings?)

I ussually try so do stuff that bites me in the ass (like building a renegade Ordo Hereticus inquisitor force (just IG without battle sisters). With the new allies rules I can formally play him as an inquisitor again, I will need to add a chaos space marine sorceror coven (use as Grey Knights) because you need the troop choice in your allies, but I think I still have some models that could fill that position.

I don't play/collect historical, but have a large collection of Raven models somehwere, as well as hordes of Confontation seeral forces in WarMachine and Hordes, some Celtos, a bit of Malifaux, some distopian wars, and quite a bit of Freebooter and Reaper models on the side. (I am in no way singularly loyal to GW)

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Light-Tricks In reply to jeroenbrugman [2012-08-07 21:32:28 +0000 UTC]

Thanks very much. Nottingham is definitely worth a visit, not really a lot there to see other than Warhammer World though lol.

I have seen the new Nurglings, they look great don't they. I had a Chaos "horde" for 2nd edition that was quite Nurgle heavy, and I have to say I'm tempted to start another one with 6th out now...

That Ordo Hereticus force sounds great, defintely sounds workable ruleswise. Would love to see that.

Excellent, I'm not particularly loyal to GW either, but none of the other miniatures ranges or fluff has really appealed to me in the same way. Infinity is looking promising though so may give that a try

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jeroenbrugman In reply to Light-Tricks [2012-08-08 13:08:30 +0000 UTC]

Well, the force itself is ready and sort off battle tested, as in I played it a few times (I need to do some 6th edition refitting of certain units) but it would be pictures of a nice bunch of crisp white miniatures at best as I still have to paint practically all of it.

As for Chaos, I have a massive Slaaneshi horde for fantasy, so since daemons and warriors split again I suppose I have two armies. For 40K Daemons I feel more confortable with Tzeentch though.
Still nurgle is funny in a way, not only for dwarf jokes (great fathers and beards of maggots and all that).

As for loyalty to GW, they have been the only constant factor in the hobby over the last 20 years. Many companies and game systems came and went. This also makes me very wary to try anything new, allthough I must admit, Infinity looks great.

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Light-Tricks In reply to jeroenbrugman [2012-08-08 13:43:45 +0000 UTC]

Excellent, look forward to seeing them painted up.

Tzeentch is my favourite too, but I still prefer some of the older Horror sculpts, not too keen on the new ones.

I definitely agree with you completely there with the conistency of GW

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jeroenbrugman In reply to Light-Tricks [2012-08-09 10:23:09 +0000 UTC]

You'll have to wait quite some time then, they are not really my priority army at the moment.

I agree with you on the old horrors. I'll need to check my boxes, I might still have enough to get to a unit of 9.

(I also have a unit of about every type of Daomonette released, allthough I missed out on the third incarnation. I have about 12 of those which I use as a surprise assault element for my Chaos marines.)

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Light-Tricks In reply to Light-Tricks [2012-08-06 18:53:26 +0000 UTC]

The idea with the Cynraith also was that the Companys break up quite a lot (as they do in the vanilla fluff also) and when they do, this is a ready made rank for that size of deployment, rather than a go-between

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Light-Tricks In reply to jeroenbrugman [2012-08-06 18:43:58 +0000 UTC]

I've also been at this for close to 20 years with a few hordes myself - plus historical stuff of various periods Do you do any historicals yourself. The Citadel Miniatures factory used to be based in my hometown and we have Forge World sculptors and Rogue Trader / early WHFB artists at my old gaming club (and GW HQ down the road) it's hard to not be into it where I'm from lol.

That's very true on the Empire, the more recent references to the Council of Nikaea being a particularly un-subtle reference lol. I've been working on some theology for the Ecclesiarchy recently based on early Christianity to fit in line with this for some Age of Apostasy games. I hadn't thought of the Centruion parallel specifically, despite the aesthetics lol.
Absolutely, the idea I was on about was to make those "invisible" officers more visible to a degree, more for the sake of the chart that the fluff. I just mentiond the parallels I did in the comments as I don't like to assume what people doo or do not know about the fluff (and I focus on the fluff side heavily) so I just stick to the pertinent basic details. I love the fact that there are endless serfs and Chapter servants that keep the whole machine running but are unsung heroes of sorts lol. I've just written a short story about a completely anonymous Administratum scribe, it's the "non-military" side of 40k that I find more interesting ironically.

I do't know if it's clear on the chart itself (which obviously can't fit the reems of fluff I have on lol) the Company level Librarians and Chaplains (or rather Chaplain-Apothecaries) are part of the Councils at the top of the Chart. I think it mentions that the each Company has the equivalent of an Epistolary (known as Awdur) and in the case of the Librarium, these are the ones that sit on the senior council.

I converted some skitarii rather a while ago, so it would be nice to get them on the table with the new allies rules. Absolutely hate beardy play, when making house rules for units myself and our gaming group have as many characterful negative rules as positive ones. This Marine Chapter for example, has rules representing a limited armoury, whcih can limit vehicles and negatively affect armour saves...

Absolutely, I wasn't so much on about the need for orders at certain levels, I just made a few invisble elements a little more visible just for the sake of the chart. It's only arough draft and a proof of concept so just needed something to fill the gap... I don't know if you read my blog but I've just done a couple of lengthy posts on just how Marines aren't grunts, and you won't get the best out of the fluff if you ignore their medieval/pre-gunpowder aesthetic.

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Light-Tricks In reply to Light-Tricks [2012-08-04 21:07:09 +0000 UTC]

The similarities weren't intentional either lol, I was just working dark ages elements into the fluff which seems to produce something close to Wolves in that sense, their character and tactical approach is rather different though

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Light-Tricks In reply to Light-Tricks [2012-08-03 15:56:40 +0000 UTC]

Oh sorry misunderstanding there, did you mean Space Wolves list? No, just using vanilla rules, but in fluff terms they aren't "Codex-Adherent." They are similar to Space Wolves in the sense that they both have a very dark ages based source of inspiration, and they combine Chaplain and Apothecaries, but that had more to do with the Brythonic inspiration rather than copying the Wolves lol.

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Light-Tricks In reply to She-who-thrist [2012-08-03 15:34:27 +0000 UTC]

Glad you like it, what was it that made it sound like Chaos in particular

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She-who-thrist In reply to Light-Tricks [2012-08-03 19:08:47 +0000 UTC]

only reason why is because you stated Warbands. Only chaos use that term. or Orks

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Light-Tricks In reply to She-who-thrist [2012-08-04 17:19:30 +0000 UTC]

Ah okay was worried it looked too Chaos-y as they're meant to be loyalist. The warband term is used in its 6th century sense rather than any reference to chaos

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She-who-thrist In reply to Light-Tricks [2012-08-07 21:57:11 +0000 UTC]

then you haven't red "Skull Haverest" Have you? when you do, you will understand

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Light-Tricks In reply to She-who-thrist [2012-08-07 22:04:25 +0000 UTC]

No, afraid not. I had a huge Chaos army for 2nd and 3rd edition so I know they use the term warband...

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She-who-thrist In reply to Light-Tricks [2012-08-07 22:07:46 +0000 UTC]

yea, Chaos uses Warbands, Loyalist scum use Companys

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Light-Tricks In reply to She-who-thrist [2012-08-07 22:15:36 +0000 UTC]

Yeah, but there's plenty of room for creativity in there too, there's Loyalist Chapters that obviously don't have Companies at all (Iron Snakes for example - have you read Brothers of the Snake?), and I imagine there could easily be Chaos Renegade Chapters or even Warbands out there that use a Company system or something similar if they value martial discipline perhaps - they don't all have to be mindlessly violent. Nothing wrong with a bit of that though

After having close to 10,000pts of Chaos rather a while ago they definitely have a special place in my heart lol. Definitely considering doing some Renegades after I've finished my dubious loyalists.

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She-who-thrist In reply to Light-Tricks [2012-08-07 22:19:46 +0000 UTC]

I have red "Brother of snakes" But I mostly enjoyed evil, so I agreed

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Light-Tricks In reply to Dreadsheep [2012-08-02 19:23:13 +0000 UTC]

Thanks very much, really appreciate that

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