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Nekromanda β Stamp: Commission - Exploiting Hardships
Published: 2012-12-05 01:26:09 +0000 UTC; Views: 5774; Favourites: 396; Downloads: 17
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Taking advantage of someone's low points in life (such as a friend's/family member's death for example) as an opportunity for you to convert them to your religion is incredibly insensitive, underhanded and just plain wrong. If you have to resort to tactics like that to change someone's mind, that sure says a lot about you and your position!
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Comments: 103
Yeah, maybe. I read about what happened to the people involved. The ten missionaries squealed on their leader, Laura Silsby and were released. Silsby got time served for the 6 months leading up to the trial. However, she still faces criminal charges in Idaho and no attorney will touch her now. You know you're scum when even attorneys won't talk to you.
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There are also a lot of people seeking help from taoism, busshism, zen, ect., and they do find in. It also work for everyone. I think than religion needs affinity, people with different mindset may embrace different religions or spiritualities easier.Β But I don't really think there is a core difference between them.
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If different people embrace different religions more easily doesn't thatΒ mean that there has to be core differences between them?
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Nope, the explanation, the way they find god might be different, but the final destination is the same. Imagine you were polyglot, talking with your polyglot friends, but you don't understand each other in french, so you switch back to english, cuz it's easier. I always thought of religion as another way of communicating with god.
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That's an interesting way of looking at it, and it certainly works for the three Abrahamic religions (Islam, Judaism, and Christianity). Other religions are more diverse when it comes to their definition of God or even have several Gods.
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Yea. However, the method of communication still exists. Note that when it's about polytheistic religions in contrast with monotheistic, christianity has patron angels too. For Buddhism and taoism, you can either call them pantheism or panetheism, but more likely the former. Lao Tzu said: "Tao is in everything,... even in the excrement. There is no single thing without tao." I'm taoist, and if you analyse tao a little, it can be said that it is identical with god.
However, I'm still stuck with the polytheistic religions, cuz if you worship a different god every time, for different aspect of your life, then you actually worship yourself. So I dunno how it works.
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An interesting fact is that the voodoo religion pretty much made Christianity into a polytheistic religion by taking the patron angels and saints and then combining them with aspects of African gods to create a unique pantheon. They still worship one mainΒ God named Bondye though.
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Indeed, they lose nothing if it did nothing.
I can help you out. In China, christianity is met with violence. If someone in China is converted, there is a high likelihood of them getting at least assaulted, if not killed. It's the same in parts of Africa, the Middle East, parts of New Guinea etc.
Judge by deeds? Ok, I will judge your religions by their deeds.
Militant muslims (not all muslims) have no qualms about killing people, and often do so in their Jihad war.
Jews have a massive victim complex. Meaning, ever since world war 2, I have noticed that if you say things against what they do, you are automatically anti semetic. For example, if in Israel you speak out against their Zionist movements or suggest friendly cohabitation with the Pakistani, you are anti semetic and I have been called that several times now.
Now for the christians. Witch hunts, crusades, inquisitions, holy executions (religion motivated murders), sexism and bigotry.
You cannot wash the blood off, the crimes that your religions have committed cannot simply be washed away, no matter how kind you are. A stained carpet will remain stained.
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There are definitely places where it isn't safe to be a Christian. I wasn't aware China was one, but I will take your word for it. If a person converts to Christianity or any religion and then is subsequently attacked for it that really isn't the fault of the religion it's the fault of the people attacking him. The religion itself didn't make his life worse the environment and people around him did.
Jews are justifiably paranoid considering the things that happened to them not so many generations ago. Their persecution and attempted extermination is still within recent memory. I had a Jewish friend in high school who loved to joke that all Jews were paranoid, because Hitler killed all the relaxed ones.
I have to disagree that blood can't be washed away. To say that a person is stained forever for every evil act they commit is to deny the concept of forgiveness a concept that every religion and even most non believers espouse. Without forgiveness all the world has is a never ending cycle of revenge and retribution.
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If he wasn't a part of that religion, there wouldn't have been a reason for them to attack. While true that the people are at fault for the attack, the religion is at fault for giving the reason.
To me at least, there is a difference between understandable paranoia, and a victim complex. Speak against them on anything, and you are anti semetic, support the holocaust etc. It's honestly pathetic.
Well, I guess we will have to disagree on that. I'm not a fan of forgiveness.
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I suppose it depends on who is being converted, what they're being converted to, who is converting them, the motives behind that person converting them, and by what means they convert them. It also depends on who you ask. I'm an atheist, and I dislike the three major religions in the world for several reasons. I feel that it's irresponsible morally to convert someone who is in a bad place to Judaism, Christianity or Islam. At the same time, I do recognize the fact that some people need religion to get them through life. But yes, it depends on a lot of different factors, so it's hard to say.
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Everything is situational.
As an aside Judaism isn't really a major religion as it only has about 45 million followers and is thus dwarfed by Hinduism and Buddhism.
When people group Judaism, Christianity and Islam they usually call them the three Abrahamic religions as they all recognize Abraham and consider him an ancestor.
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I've seen people attempt to do this, it sickens me.
A church one of my friends went to actually encouraged their followers to do this.
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When people are in poverty, I'm sure they don't need food, water or safety. I'm sure they need to be converted! *sarcasm*
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Haha... Yeah, screw food, gimme some of that Bible.
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It's like "Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach him to fish and he eats for a lifetime.", only that The Bible can help people generally live. And life, last time I checked, includes so much more than just fishing for the food.
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Do you believe that we as a species would not have been able to figure out how to live without the Bible telling us how to?
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Well, according to the Bible itself there have been people who've figured that out without knowing God's Word, but that certainly won't change the fact how significant and perfect the Bible is. I mean, it's not called for God's Word for nothing. Why in the wide wide world would we like to turn away from a message by our very Creator?
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What are your opinions on the contradictions within the Bible? Or the less than lovely parts, such as 2 Kings 2:23-24?
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Good questions! I think that those nonbelivers, who have already proven not to understand the Bible, are ever-so-conveniently better at finding, or rather, seeing contradictions in the Word of God, like in the case of history of creation. There's no contradiction in that, yet some people claims there is.
"I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else."
- C. S. Lewis
Admittedly some parts seems contradicting even to me, but considering everything else, not only in the Bible, but within my life as well, it would be even bigger contradiction for me to suddenly deny it all because of few lines. Some Christians would argue, that those are, indeed, writters' mistakes (at least the less significant ones), that might still, in some weird unusual sense, serve some meaningful purpose. I'm not sure if that's the case, but wont count out that possibility, either.
Afterall, I'm just a human being and can't, nor even should be expected to, understand everything in the Bible.
Now, what comes to the less than lovely parts, I've also grown a Faith, that even they serve a purpose in this Story of Life. Take Book of Job, for example. Irreproachable man suffers, yet stays loayl to the God 'till the very end and gets rewarded multiply the times of his suffering (if that was grammatically correct sentense). A simple comparison; it's like losing 10 000β¬, but later gaining 100 000β¬ thanks to that.
And you do know how big role numbers plays in the Bible, right? Look, it's even on the example verses you gave me: www.biblestudy.org/bibleref/me⦠. Here's also the original word used for "little children" en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D7%A0%⦠. Notice how it can also refer to physically-albed man. That aside, it might sounds rather strict to kill 42 men because of insulting, but at the same time, I see it as a good example of how absolute things are in life. Like the man who died immediately after touching an item falling from Ark of the Covenant. It is so Holy, that it was unappropriate even having it on display like that after receiving it back from their enemies.
Purity is not about being almost clean, but completly clean. It is so absolute, that there's a greater difference between 100% and 90% than there's between 90% and 10% (when using absolute values, not things like money). As we all know, people nowadays don't seem to like thinking, that there's anything absolute, thus comprehending these actions and events of the Bible might be really difficult for them. It may sound absurd, just like the miracles in the world where we trust in what the science has provided us. But daring to go further, thinking outside the box, those necessery connections for Faith and understoodment of the Bible, can be discovered.
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This will probably be a fairly lengthy comment. My apologies in advance. I'll try to split it up with lines to organise it a bit. Β
I'm curious if you have seen this image before. Β The image, if you should click it, is a visual representation of every contradiction within the Bible, to make it easier to digest. I would daresay that it's more than 'a few lines,' and worth asking a question: if this book were meant to be God's word to humanity, and if God is all powerful, then why is it so full of contradictions? If God is powerful enough to make sure we understand what must certainly be VERY important, why isn't it perfect? Why would he even allow the writers to mess up if it's meant to be what HE said?
Regarding the story of Job -- You see the good in the story: Job shows his faith even in the hardest of times and is rewarded in the end. Β I understand how that can be inspiring to people of faith. Β However, people of faith almost always ignore the bad in these stories.
The entire story of Job begins with God and Satan making a bet. God tells Satan, who he created, to do terrible things to Job. Β If God is supposed to be omnibenevolent, he certainly isn't being very true to his character here. Β
God allows Satan to burn Job's slaves to death. God allows Job's children to be killed. God allows Job to be stricken with boils, and allows him to suffer emotionally. Β All of this, even the Bible admits that the Lord brought it upon him (Job 42:11 Β - Β 'They comforted and consoled him over all the trouble the LORD had brought on him...'). Β All of this suffering, all for a wager.
Yes, he gets more sheep and camels and oxen and asses in the end. But isn't it a bit cruel that he didn't get his own daughters and sons back? They're still dead. But hey, at least God gave him some new kids, right? Β I don't know about other people, but I'd probably miss my original children and still be very sad that they were dead, even if I got some brand new kids later on. Β
Regarding the numbers, I don't see how it has any relevance to the story I brought up. Β The interpretation of the words though, I think it's important to look at a few translations to get the gist of it. Β The victims of the bear mauling were as follows:Β
NIV - boys
ESV - boys
New American Standard Bible - lads
KJB - children
Holman Christian Standard Bible - children
International Standard Version - young men
NET Bible - boys
GOD'S WORD Translation - youths
Jubilee Bible 2000 - young men
King James 2000 Bible - youths
American King James Version - children
American Standard Version - lads
Douay-Rheims Bible - boys
Darby Bible Translation - children
English Revised Version - children
Webster's Bible Translation - children
World English Bible - youths
Young's Literal Translation - lads
I think it's pretty clear that these were meant to be children.
I've got a question for you. Β Is the Bible meant to be taken literally? Or is it meant to be taken metaphorically?Β
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It's okay. As you're about to see, I'm one of the last people in deviantART who has any right to complain about overly long comments here, even if I were to mind them (which I don't).
Obviously, I can't go through all of them right here and now, but I picked 4 parts to see how reliable this interpratation of the Bible is and here are the results:
16. Is it wrong to commit adultery?: It is. None of the latter mentioned parts says anything to accept it.
24. Did Jesus tell his disciples everything?: First part he tells how he have made known everything he have heard from His Father. This is a particular, limited information and the means of sharing it are still unsure. At least to me, it seems more likely, that he have teached his disciplines more through actions than literal words. So on the (chronologically) latter part, there are still some things left to say, as in, to speak, mention, teach (Perhaps he had heard more of God between these parts, but had not told them yet?).
30. From what were the animals created? The first part says "Let the waters bring forth", which according to dictionary can also mean "To display, produce, bring out for display". And this is only English translation, mind you. My quick research provided me not the original term used in this part. And lastly, I've always thought, that God simply created more animals and plants in Genesis chapter 2. I mean, what would rule that interpratation out?
34. How many of Arah's offspring returned from Babylon? You said, that the Bible itself should be perfect, were it to be God's Word. How about other written information? As far as I can tell, the latter part tells only about the guy describing the text first mentioned in the former part. What proves, that the information remained unchanged during the time between these two parts?
There are times, when the information is told by a "narrato" or something. And then there's times, when narrator tells "And then that guy said". What if "that guy" was purposefully wrong? What if we are supposed to realize and learn something from his/her incorrectness? (So) Not all of these contradictions must be the Bible's faulth, God's mistakes. And considering how questionable these so called contradictions have been so far, you really should take that list with a pinch of salt. It is inaccurate and neither of us knows yet how much so.
Regarding the story of Job -- I can see what you mean, but your point is missing one major part; Heavenly rewards Job is to receive for his righteousness in this lifetime. Or are you not familiar with that consept? The beginning of Sermon on the Mount said something regarding this matter, only under different circumantes. At least you should realize, that he's sure to meet his daughers and sons again in Heaven, who too must've received their rewards for being part of this story. Story not of a wager, but a great lesson for us all of how Faitful and Loyal God is towards us, even though He let's us go through suffering, which, mind you, is often inevitable in a world, where people have the Freedom of Choise. Without learning this lesson in a way or another, how could people not question God at really tough times? Are us belivers not allowed to keep our beliefs at times of suffer?
What comes to the numbers, they're part of the ingenious design of the Bible and thus part of the message as well. Did you not read the meaning of number 42? But yeah, in a sense it is irrelevant. I, on the other hand, fail to see how those translations matters. Doesn't pretty much every message change after being translated into another language? Hebrew and Greek are the original languages of the Bible, and the ones that really matters. I fail to see how it would be any rational to expect even the perfectest message to remain the same through translation.
Both, depends on the case, really. We know, that Jesus walked on water and Moses split the sea, but were you to read Revelation, there are more metaphores than anything else!
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Oh absolutely you're right. One needs to remember that as we're converting or trying to do so, our motives are for God and to help the other person. If a person's only motivation is that they want the other person to be just like them, and they will do that at any cost, even by taking advantage of life situations, then maybe they need to re-analyze what they're doing in the first place and get their house in order before they try to convert others. It's a delicate balance. Motives need to be correct first.
I'm sorry for all the comments. I know my genius is clearly too much to bear all at once (xD) but I just decided to go stamp hunting.
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Well, you know me, haha, I'm against it regardless of motive because of reasons. But I can see what you're saying there, and in that sense I do agree with you. And no worries about the comments haha. My apologies for the delay in response actually - I'm currently buried under a few dozen stacks of comments I'm working through, so it's taking a while, haha.
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I wholeheartedly agree. Anyone who would use someone else's grief as an opportunity to convert that someone to a belief system, or deconvert them from a belief system, is a vile human being.
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One of the main reasons that there are more evangelical (born-again whatever) in 3rd world countries.
I couldn't care what a persons beliefs are but proselytizing from any faith (and non faiths as well actually) pisses me off. I swear it is my biggest pet peeve
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*evangelical Christians
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Using this tactic to get people to convert/deconvert is utter shit.
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Taking advantage of hardship is a time-honored tradition that disgusts me to no end.
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completely agree on this, i've already met a few products of this exploitation and it's horrible. They give no credit to themselves or the people who've helped them recover from such events, all they ever speak about is how everything good in their life is because of their diety from their recovery, to their talents and skills, to anything anybody has ever done for them. It's just plain ignorant and the first thing i've ever known that actually gets me offended. They give no credit to anyone for anything but but their diety, it drives me insane!
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It's one of the most vile actions I can think of, to use emotional manipulation and exploit the sad state of a fellow ape such as that.
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Or selling them a product or service. Like mortuary professionals trying to guilt you into buying the most expensive coffins 'for the sake of the loved one.' And, of course, mediums and psychics who try and exploit vulnerable, grieving people with their bullshit.
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Ooh yes, this! Those are also very good examples of that sort of behavior!
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Right. In a "softer" example, a catholic girl known in anime forums some years ago wrote me a message on easter Day, in a bad life-time era for me : "good easter, and even if you don't believe in him, god is with you !" . She knew that i'm an atheist, but this didn't prevent her to write that. I became so angry and answered that she didn't have the right, even with good intentions, to impose her beliefs over me
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This is why I have such a problem with missionaries and aid relief that only ends up bringing bibles to people who are starving.
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From my experience, misfortune is treated in completely different ways by theists and atheists. It seems grief, depression, and poverty are seen as opportunities to bring someone to your church. There is not often malicious intent, as the religious person sees religion as a coping method and a source of hope. But for atheists, misfortune means you ignore religion completely. You don't attack someone's religious beliefs when they are grieving, or if it is giving them support in other hard times. Based on opinions on atheist forums, it is essentially a commandment - Thou shalt not challenge religion whilst a man suffers.
Both have good intentions, though prosthelytizing is, even if unintentionally, exploitative.
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You know, this was talked about in Liar Game. You know, manipulating people who were in the midst of misfortune. Except it was a cult.
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Haha, sounds about right. Every once in a while when I can, I catch some documentaries about people who left cults. They tend to talk about how they had some sort of horrible thing happen to them in the past, and that's what caused them to look into the cult in the first place!
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If there's one thing I hate most, it's people offering false hope in exchange for something else (your undying loyalty, money, etc).
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I completely agree. I don't have a religion, and I intend to keep it that way.
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This sort of this quite literally makes me nauseous. I find it hard to believe that our species as a whole is still capable of it.
Suffering is bad enough without people using underhanded tactics to convert them.
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"Suffering is bad enough without people using underhanded tactics to convert them."
This!
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Totally agree. I remember going to a Christian camp and they used grief to reenforce beliefs.
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Urgh, that's just sick :/
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One hundred percent agreed. I hate this, and a lot of people theists, non-theists, etc employ this tactic. It's disgusting.
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