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OokamiKasumi — The Secret to Proper Paragraphing
Published: 2010-02-01 01:06:06 +0000 UTC; Views: 37755; Favourites: 741; Downloads: 382
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Description Once you know what your characters and doing and saying, how do you get all that down on Paper without ending up with a huge confusing mess?

Putting the Story on Paper.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Everybody knows that when a new speaker speaks they get a new paragraph, right? In other words, you DON'T put two different people talking in the same paragraph. Okay, yeah, so anyone who has written any kind of fiction learns this pretty darned quick, (usually from their readers.)

What nobody seems to get is that the same goes for a new character's ACTIONS. Seriously, when a new character ACTS they're supposed to get their own paragraph -- even if they don't speak!

In short, you paragraph by change in CHARACTER -- not because they speak, but because they ACT. Ahem... Dialogue is an ACTION. In other words, the reason you don't put two different characters' Dialogue in the same paragraph is BECAUSE you don't mix two characters' Actions. Okay?


"Wait a minute, doesn't that cut everything into tiny bits, you know, when you cut all the dialogue away then divide up all those paragraphs?"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
No because Character A's dialogue is supposed to be IN Character A's paragraph of actions. Character B gets his own paragraph of dialogue AND actions. You divide up a story's paragraphs by individual Character -- not by individual lines of Dialogue OR Actions.

What you definitely don't do, is cut all the dialogue away from everything and mash all the different characters' actions together in one messy paragraph where no one can tell who did what.


"Where the heck did THAT rule come from?"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Strunk & White's Element's of Style, the grammar handbook.

To wit…
-- "In dialogue, each speech, even if only a single word, is a paragraph by itself; that is, a new paragraph begins with each change of speaker."

This is often misinterpreted as "Make a new paragraph at every new line of dialogue."

Um... No. The key phrase here is "a new paragraph begins with Each Change of Speaker."

As long as the Speaker is Acting, the Speaker HAS NOT CHANGED. However, every time a new character Acts, you ARE Changing Speakers -- even if they don't talk! Therefore, each new character ACTING gets a New Paragraph, whether or not they have dialogue.

How this works...

WRONG:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"You named a stuffed animal?" Toby raised his eyebrows, surprised, and Becky's blush grew brighter, creeping down her neck. < -- Two Characters acting in the same paragraph.>

Becky mumbled, "I wouldn't so much say named, as gave it an identifying word to distinguish it from all the other stuffed cute kitty plushies." < -- this whole line is Abandoned Dialogue.>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

RIGHT:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Toby raised his eyebrows, surprised. "You named a stuffed animal?"

Becky's blush grew brighter, creeping down her neck. "I wouldn't so much say named, as gave it an identifying word to distinguish it from all the other stuffed cute kitty plushies."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What's Missing?
-- 'Becky mumbled'. <-- This is an unnecessary Dialogue tag. Once you link a character's Dialogue to their corresponding Actions, you no longer need the Dialogue tags.

If you really, really want to add that Becky mumbled her words, describe it as an action. Don't TELL us that she mumbled, SHOW us.

Example:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Becky's blush grew brighter, creeping down her neck. Her voice dropped to a mumble. "I wouldn't so much say named, as gave an identifying word to distinguish it from all the other stuffed cute kitty plushies."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

-----Original Message-----
"What if the next internals and action/dialogue are his, like:"

"You named a stuffed animal?" Toby raised his eyebrows, surprised, and Becky's blush grew brighter, creeping down her neck. Her reaction was adorable and he couldn't resist needling her some more. "I thought you hated stuffies."

"Then can you lump those actions together?"
-- Thanks in advance -- Jas
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Um... NO.
-- Remember this?

"…A new paragraph begins with Each Change of Speaker."
-- When a new character ACTS they're supposed to get a new paragraph.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"You named a stuffed animal?" Toby raised his eyebrows, surprised, and <-- Toby's Actions / Becky's Actions --> Becky's blush grew brighter, creeping down her neck.

Becky didn't say anything, but she IS acting -- a blush is an action -- therefore Becky gets her OWN paragraph.

Adjusted:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"You named a stuffed animal?" Toby raised his eyebrows, surprised.

Becky's blush grew brighter, creeping down her neck.


However, this is incorrect too:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"You named a stuffed animal?" Toby raised his eyebrows, surprised.

Actions go BEFORE Reactions Toby was surprised so he commented: "You named a stuffed animal?" He didn't comment and THEN become surprised.

Adjusted:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Toby raised his eyebrows, surprised. "You named a stuffed animal?"


All together now!

Original:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"You named a stuffed animal?" Toby raised his eyebrows, surprised, and Becky's blush grew brighter, creeping down her neck. Her reaction was adorable and he couldn't resist needling her some more. "I thought you hated stuffies."

Adjusted:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Toby raised his eyebrows, surprised. "You named a stuffed animal?"

Becky's blush grew brighter, creeping down her neck.

Her reaction was so adorable, Toby couldn't resist needling her some more. "I thought you hated stuffies?"


-----Original Message-----
"But when you do that, it looks so...choppy on the page. There's ton's of empty white space!"
-- Hates Empty Space
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yes, it looks choppy on the page, but its Far More Important that there is absolutely no doubt in anyone's mind as to who is acting and who is speaking.

Another Example:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Don't help me. I'm fine by myself," she told him, not bothering to be polite. He looked surprised and perhaps a little hurt. She heard another voice.

"Geez, you're pretty full of yourself, aren't you?" She got to her feet and brushed herself off, glancing in the direction of the newcomer. She nearly recoiled in shock. Another handsome guy. He crossed his arms over his chest. "He was just trying to help you." He told her. She readjusted her bag and said.

"I don't recall asking for help."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

By the way, once you separate each of your character's actions into new paragraphs and reconnect each character's dialogue to their actions, you won't need dialogue tags such as "said" because your character's actions are the identifiers for your dialogue.

With actions separated & dialogue attached.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Don't help me. I'm fine by myself." She didn't bother to be polite.

He looked surprised and perhaps a little hurt.

A new voice called out. "Geez, you're pretty full of yourself, aren't you?"

She got to her feet and brushed herself off, glancing in the direction of the newcomer. Another handsome guy. She nearly recoiled in shock.

He crossed his arms over his chest. "He was just trying to help you."

She readjusted her bag. "I don't recall asking for help."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If you truly loathe all that white space, then fill it in with more actions, description, and internal narration observations.

-----Original Message-----
But what about when someone is watching someone else, or feeling someone do something to them? -- Concerned about Observation

This seems perfectly fine, right?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
He watched her shake her butt.
He felt her skin move against his.  

However, once you take this into account:

"…A new paragraph begins with Each Change of Speaker."
-- When a new character ACTS they're supposed to get a new paragraph.

Not so fine after all. You have two people acting in the same line -- in Both Cases.

The way around this little gem of a problem, is to SHOW the event by character rather than TELL it in one lump.  

You begin by dividing the actions by Character:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
He watched her.

She shook her butt and her skin moved against his.

He felt it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Seems kind'a…short eh? That's because those lines TOLD you what happened, instead of Showing you what happened, so there are all kinds of details missing. Once you add enough details to paint a whole picture…

Adjusted:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From his seat at the edge of the stage, he watched her.

Tall, svelte, and in the skimpiest bathing suit he'd ever seen, she moved in close and shook her butt. The round, firm flesh jiggled enticingly against his face.

His cheeks were subjected to the most incredible, though slightly sweaty, facial massage ever.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


KILL the Dialogue Tags. (Seriously.)
-- When you have an action with a line of dialogue, you don't need Dialogue tags, such as "he said" -- at all. You already know through their actions WHO is speaking.

Dialogue tags are only ever needed when you don't have any other way of identifying the speaker.

HOWEVER, if you have no other way of knowing who is speaking than dialogue tags, then you have committed the heinous crime of:

Dialogue in a Vacuum
- Also known as "talking heads syndrome."

A book with nothing but reams of dialogue marked only by dialogue tags means that while people may be talking, there is no PICTURE. The mental movie has stopped and only the sound-track is playing. Compare it to a Radio Show with no sound effects.

I don't know about you, but when I go to read a story, I want to SEE what I'm reading like a movie, not listen to a radio show.

Memorize this:
Readers always interpret what they read the way they want to see it -- unless you SHOW them what you envisioned.

In other words…
What CAN be misunderstood -- WILL be misunderstood.


Leave Nothing to Misinterpretation.
-- Readers will ALWAYS make whatever assumptions come to mind about what they are reading. When a reader realizes that what they thought was going on -- wasn't, they'll get confused, and occasionally pissed off.

Unmarked blocks of dialogue are painfully EASY to get lost in.

I remember reading one whole page of un-tagged action-less dialogue only to find out that I had two of the characters reversed. Did I reread that whole page to figure out what was going on? Hell no! I tossed the book across the room. (In fact, it's still on the floor gathering dust bunnies.)

"But, isn't that's what 'said' and other dialogue tags are for?"

Just for the record...
-- Using dialogue tags is Not against the rules. Dialogue tags are a perfectly viable way to identify who is speaking -- it just makes that part of the story BORING. (I don't know about you, but I won't read something that bores me.)

I choose to write my dialogue without using "said" unless I am actually describing a change in voice, tone, or volume in the same paragraph. And even then, I try to avoid them. I use the speaker's actions to define who is speaking to whom.
  
I use ACTION TAGS.

"What the heck is an Action Tag?"
BODY LANGUAGE

Language is Visual not just a bunch of words. Watch the average conversation between two people. 90% of that conversation isn't in what's spoken, it's in what they are DOING as they are speaking. It's in their Body Language. Body-language cues the reader as to what is going on in a character's head – in ADDITION to dialogue and internal narrative.

Action and body-language tags on dialogue are Not just for decoration.
-- Stories are Mental Movies you play in your imagination. I don't know about you, but I HATE to be interrupted when I'm involved in a good movie. If I have to stop and reread a section just to figure out what the heck is going on, I've been interrupted. One too many interruptions and I'm switching to another story -- with no intention of continuing with something that's just too much work to get through.

Action tags keep the mental Movie rolling and the MEANING of what is being said crystal clear. A small simple action can tell you right away, what's going through the speaker's head.

Don't just SAY it! ~ SHOW IT!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  "I love you too." She rolled her eyes and sighed dramatically. "Oh yes, I truly do love you."
  "I love you too." She dropped her chin and pouted. "Oh yes, I truly do love you."
  "I love you too." She glared straight at him. "Oh yes, I truly do love you."
  "I love you too." She turned away and wiped the tear from her cheek. "Oh yes, I truly do love you."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

WHY I loathe the word "said".
- To be perfectly clear, it's not JUST the word 'said', I hate ALL Dialogue Tags inclusively. I utterly refuse to use them.

Why?
- Because they're wasteful. They clutter up dialogue while slowing down actions, and they use up word-count that could be far better used elsewhere.

I don't believe in putting anything in my fiction that isn't useful. If it doesn't add to the character or the plot, it gets eradicated. Dialogue tags are too easily replaced by something that actually adds to the story, such as an action, a facial expression, a spot of description, or a character's opinions.

Just for the record, I write extremely dialogue-heavy fiction. When I find that a dialogue tag is indeed needed in my story to identify who is talking, I see it as a red flag that indicates that all action has come to a screeching halt. Nothing is Happening other than talking; also known as: Talking Heads Syndrome.

When that happens, I find some way to fill that space with something useful to the story such as an action, a facial expression, a spot of description, or a character's opinions -- ANYTHING other than a dialogue tag.

But those are MY feelings on the subject.
-- Your mileage may vary.

Dialogue tags ARE a legitimate form of sentence structure. When there is no other way to identify a speaker, dialogue tags are indeed a viable option.


What about Punctuation for Dialogue?
- Go here:
theeditorsblog.net/2010/12/08/…
Read that.  


Paragraph Aesthetics

-----Original Message-----
"I suppose the issue I have is with the aesthetics of paragraphing. Though text is not comparable to a visual medium such as film, it is still something that we have to view with our eyes."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Actually, text aesthetics -- the way the words appear on the page -- seems to be a HUGE bone of contention.

-----Original Message-----
"...The way I see it, your example suggests that I break my text up into a lot of little paragraphs. Given this understanding, in a scene rich with alternating action, it looks like I'll be left with a lot of one-line paragraphs. ...I'd greatly appreciate it if you clarified this situation. I suppose that is the trouble with having to jot down the basics, you can't expand on the little details of the rule. ^_^
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Paragraph Aesthetics - Illustrated
-- The way a story appears on a standard 9.5 x 11 inch piece of paper is NOT the way to judge whether or not one's paragraphs are too long or too short. A story viewed on a browser page carries even less weight.

Why not?
-- Because Fiction is generally printed on pages HALF the size of a full sheet of paper. What appears to be a lot of short little paragraphs on the "internet page," are NOT so short or so little once you put them on the Printed page.

The standard sizes for printed Fiction are: paperback (4.25 x 6.75 inches), and trade paperback (5.5 x 8.25 inches.) Hard-cover books use the same size page as a Trade. Only coffee-table books possess printed pages anywhere near the size of a standard sheet of paper.

Visual Aids:
ALL examples are 12 pt. Times New Roman font.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Standard Paperback 6.75 x 4.25, 1/2 inch margins:
i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp…

Trade paperback 5.5 x 8.25, 1/2 inch margins:  
i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp…

Standard sheet of paper 8.5" x 11", 1 inch margins:
i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp…
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Personally, I could care less what my text looks like on the page. As far as I'm concerned, making the story as clear and easy to read as possible is far more important to me than what the text looks like. If I have done my job well, no one will even notice the words - only the story unfolding in their imaginations.

As for internet reading, I'm completely baffled why anyone would care how it looks on the browser page. All you have to do is narrow the window and the text adjusts.


-----Original Message-----
"Also, I hope you don't mind, but did you come up with the rules yourself, through experience and trial and error, publisher's advice, or is there a handy guide I can employ? Obviously, I quite loyally follow Strunk and White, but I don't think it talks about this subject much. Is there a book that YOU use?"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Let's start here:
"...did you come up with the rules yourself, through experience and trial and error, publisher's advice...?"

YES - to all of the above, plus editor hounding and long chats with a number of extremely well-established fiction authors. In addition, I've read a crap-load of how-to books. I'm pretty sure I own, and have practically memorized, just about every book "Writer's Digest" has put out.

My writing advice posts are the results of taking all the info I'd crammed into my head and condensing it into small bite-sized, chewable, pieces that are easy to remember and much easier to apply. Rather than waste people's time on theory, I focus on application.

As for recommended reads...
-- Unfortunately, there is no one guide that shows it all. Not One. However, there are two books I can't praise highly enough. As far as I'm concerned, they are VITAL reading for fiction writing.

SCENE & STRUCTURE by Jack. M. Bickham
THE WRITER'S JOURNEY by Christopher Vogler
-- (Google is your friend.)

There are lots of other books I could recommend, but these are the two "Must Haves" if an author really, REALLY wants to write fiction well.

Enjoy!
Related content
Comments: 337

OokamiKasumi In reply to ??? [2011-03-20 06:35:38 +0000 UTC]

I'm glad you liked it.
-- Remember, the only time you ever need to take what I post Seriously is IF you plan to publish what you've written. Other than that, you're free to write whatever you please, in any way that you please.

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

Trudos In reply to OokamiKasumi [2011-03-21 00:31:37 +0000 UTC]

Well, actually I do wish to get my stuff published someday. It's not my main field I'm going into, so I'm not worried about making money off it, so much as I just want these stories that do not leave me alone to get out there and read by someone who might appreciate them

👍: 0 ⏩: 0

Alida-23 In reply to ??? [2011-03-14 10:33:55 +0000 UTC]

This is beyond helpful and I thank you so much, just by reading this I feel inspired, you've given me so many ideas! But I have to disagree with you when you say you could care less to how your writing looks. I read a lot of fan-fiction and sometimes I don't read a story because the first paragraph looks choppy, and unappealing to read. Although I could narrow my window down, why should I? It should be the author that takes care of the typesetting, but I know that sometimes technology can be a bitch and just won't do what it tells you.

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

OokamiKasumi In reply to Alida-23 [2011-03-14 10:57:01 +0000 UTC]

I'm glad you liked my essay!
-- I love being inspiring.

Although I could narrow my window down, why should I? It should be the author that takes care of the typesetting, but I know that sometimes technology can be a bitch and just won't do what it tells you.

I have a 1024x768 monitor, but many of my friends have one of those insanely wide screen monitors. I am Not going to adjust my stories to fit their monitors, or expect other writers to accommodate mine. That's stupid. Personally, I feel it's the Story Site that should be taking monitor width into account, not the author or the reader.

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

Alida-23 In reply to OokamiKasumi [2011-03-15 06:29:56 +0000 UTC]

I didnt think about the website hosting the story, but I agree with you they should be taking care of the technical problems. But I was talking more about blogs, the owner of a blog can change the frame size to accommodate the writing, which is, what I think, they should be doing.

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

OokamiKasumi In reply to Alida-23 [2011-03-15 13:41:55 +0000 UTC]

I was talking more about blogs, the owner of a blog can change the frame size to accommodate the writing, which is, what I think, they should be doing.

On that we agree. Though, lots of people are pretty ignorant when it comes to HTML.

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

Alida-23 In reply to OokamiKasumi [2011-03-16 08:20:17 +0000 UTC]

Yea, they are. I was at one point, but if you really put your mind to it, its not insanely hard to learn.^_^

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

OokamiKasumi In reply to Alida-23 [2011-03-16 16:44:01 +0000 UTC]

I cheat and use Dreamweaver for my HTML

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

Alida-23 In reply to OokamiKasumi [2011-03-17 06:56:25 +0000 UTC]

Haha, that's a good idea, most of my friends use it.

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

OokamiKasumi In reply to Alida-23 [2011-03-17 16:21:20 +0000 UTC]

It makes life soooo much easier.

👍: 0 ⏩: 0

SmokingBunnies In reply to ??? [2010-11-06 18:36:21 +0000 UTC]

I doubt your tutorials will ever cease to amaze me (and make me cringe at my own writing.)

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

OokamiKasumi In reply to SmokingBunnies [2010-11-21 02:02:00 +0000 UTC]

Er... Thank you and I'm sorry?
-- I'm trying to help make writing a story easier, honest!

👍: 0 ⏩: 0

RoseStarBerry In reply to ??? [2010-09-08 00:39:06 +0000 UTC]

Fantastic tips! i'll certainly take these to heart when I am writing my next story!

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

OokamiKasumi In reply to RoseStarBerry [2010-09-22 09:35:57 +0000 UTC]

I'm glad you liked them! I try to be helpful.

👍: 0 ⏩: 0

Ashikai In reply to ??? [2010-09-04 17:36:04 +0000 UTC]

I'm giving a digital round of applause for the whole "said" shpeal you wrote up there. Kudos!

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

OokamiKasumi In reply to Ashikai [2010-09-22 09:35:41 +0000 UTC]

Thank you!
-- "Said" is important in Non-Fiction essays, news articles, and thesis work, but when you're writing a story, all it does is present an excuse to avoid description.

👍: 0 ⏩: 0

Ferronic In reply to ??? [2010-08-27 20:04:22 +0000 UTC]

Thanks for this article. I found it immensely helpful in combating the dreaded talking-head syndrome.

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

OokamiKasumi In reply to Ferronic [2010-08-28 08:13:14 +0000 UTC]

I'm so glad you liked it.
-- This article in particular is the hardest to apply to one's writing because it often means massive rewrites. However, once you get used to writing this way, you'll find that it's actually Easier -- and Faster.

👍: 0 ⏩: 0

Tori5 In reply to ??? [2010-07-28 17:14:41 +0000 UTC]

*suddenly gets an idea* You know, now that I'm thinking about it... it might sound really stupid, but... are you an oficial author? Like, I mean, you don't write for fun, but for money? (or for both, the important thing is money) Because, judging from the immense amount of information in this article (AND number of all your articles here) makes me wonder if this really could be only a hobby for you. Because if it is, you are certainly the most passionate person for her hobby I've ever met (or seen, you know what I mean hopefully ).
On the side note - you mentioned you write about yaoi. Did you write anything from Naruto universe? (it doesn't necessarily have to be yaoi, I'm far bigger fan of yuri than yaoi, I'm just curious if you are writing anything from there). If so, is there some site or blog where you posted (some of) your work, or is it only selled in USA? Thank you for response, and of course thank you for your article.

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

OokamiKasumi In reply to Tori5 [2010-08-06 11:46:48 +0000 UTC]

...are you an oficial author? Like, I mean, you don't write for fun, but for money?

Yes, I'm an author. *grin* I have about 30 titles to my name.

On the side note - you mentioned you write about yaoi. Did you write anything from Naruto universe?

I have indeed! They're posted on Media Miner --> [link] However, they're all Rated M so you have to go to the top and change the "Rating" to "ALL".

As for my published stuff, you can find most of them on Amazon --> [link] !1000%2Cp_27%3AMorgan+Hawke&sort=relevanceexprank

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

Tori5 In reply to OokamiKasumi [2010-08-12 10:38:31 +0000 UTC]

I see. Thank you for response, I'll probably check your work from Naruto universe sometime in really near future.

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

OokamiKasumi In reply to Tori5 [2010-08-15 21:37:20 +0000 UTC]

My pleasure.
-- Happy reading!

👍: 0 ⏩: 0

HazukiNinja In reply to ??? [2010-07-23 17:19:18 +0000 UTC]

I would fave this a billion times over if I could *_* Writing emotions? Pssh. Piece of cake when it comes to dialog. This'll help me immensely; thank you!!

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

OokamiKasumi In reply to HazukiNinja [2010-07-26 20:20:13 +0000 UTC]

I'm thrilled you liked this essay!
-- It's one of the hardest things to learn in writing. Seriously. If you get this down, there won't be a publishing house out there that won't take your work.

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

HazukiNinja In reply to OokamiKasumi [2010-07-27 03:29:02 +0000 UTC]

No problem Thank you for posting this!
And yes it is, i completely agree. Symbolism? Not trashy, overused metaphors, but good ones? Not too hard if you think. Characters, plot? Can be pretty easy. It's always the conversations XP
Thanks for the advice though! ^^ makes me have some hope for the future.

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

OokamiKasumi In reply to HazukiNinja [2010-07-27 10:53:46 +0000 UTC]

...makes me have some hope for the future.
-- That's the whole idea.

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

HazukiNinja In reply to OokamiKasumi [2010-07-27 16:08:06 +0000 UTC]

Thank you

👍: 0 ⏩: 0

ArTeMiSFowLMyST In reply to ??? [2010-06-12 18:50:21 +0000 UTC]

"I don't believe in putting anything in my fiction that isn't useful. If it doesn't add to the character or the plot, it gets eradicated."

And thus your work is likely to be a filtered shadow of reality (and come to think of it, incredibly didactic), because every action in our real lives like drinking water and brushing our teeth or even the way we say things all serve as pre-cursors to melodrama and plot devices....even though they don't.

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

OokamiKasumi In reply to ArTeMiSFowLMyST [2010-06-13 03:03:42 +0000 UTC]

And thus your work is likely to be a filtered shadow of reality...

LOL!
Not according to my publishers. *grin*
-- Perhaps you should read some of my work before you make that decision, ne?

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

ArTeMiSFowLMyST In reply to OokamiKasumi [2010-06-13 16:58:43 +0000 UTC]

i'd trust that your comment on your own work and how it flows is sufficient to describe it...if not what kind of author are you LOL

but anyway, on a more serious note, this realist style is the anti-thesis of a commercial one. i doubt that publishers these days being the monetarily incentivized pigs that they are would give a hoot about whether or not the people buying the book are being fed a filtered shadow of reality as long as they do buy the book. twilight's a good example no?

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

OokamiKasumi In reply to ArTeMiSFowLMyST [2010-06-14 06:16:15 +0000 UTC]

i'd trust that your comment on your own work and how it flows is sufficient to describe it...if not what kind of author are you LOL.
-- Exactly! To find out what sort of author I am, you'd actually have to spend money on a book or three.

...i doubt that publishers these days being the monetarily incentivized pigs that they are would give a hoot about whether or not the people buying the book are being fed a filtered shadow of reality as long as they do buy the book. twilight's a good example no?

Absolutely Correct! That's exactly how the publishing industry operates. The editors don't make the real decisions, the Marketing department does.

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

ArTeMiSFowLMyST In reply to OokamiKasumi [2010-06-14 11:16:02 +0000 UTC]

i might find your work entertaining (fanfictions are often very), but as to artistic value (is that an aim of yours?) :S

what have you written? i'd like to search them out online.

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

OokamiKasumi In reply to ArTeMiSFowLMyST [2010-06-14 17:09:24 +0000 UTC]

i might find your work entertaining (fanfictions are often very)...
-- I doubt that, unless you're into Yaoi? *grin* I write fan-fics for experimental purposes, (good way to try out an uncertain technique with a live audience.) The content, however, is for my own entertainment.

...but as to artistic value (is that an aim of yours?) :S
-- Not at all. My aim is to make pure entertainment--so as to make a decent paycheck. I leave the 'artistic value' to the Literary folks--which I am Not.

what have you written?
-- I'm an erotic romance author. I write Women's Adult Pulp Fiction. No artistic value in it what so ever, but it makes a nice income. *grin*

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

ArTeMiSFowLMyST In reply to OokamiKasumi [2010-06-14 17:11:29 +0000 UTC]

): yaoi

i'd be interested in yuri but yaoi....

i've this irritating guy who likes to make gay pairings with me. i think that's enough yaoi...

thanks though.

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

OokamiKasumi In reply to ArTeMiSFowLMyST [2010-06-14 17:13:17 +0000 UTC]

I though not. *grin*

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BladedMako In reply to ??? [2010-06-10 19:27:47 +0000 UTC]

Thanks, this really helps. Recently Iv'e been expirementing with not using the word said. In a conversation with TWO people you almost never have to use it, because you can assume that the conversations is going

A
B
A
B

I've mostly been using actions in place of 'said'. It works much better and reads much smoother. But I didn't know about the paragraphs, so thanks for the heads up on that. I will be updating some of my stories now, for sure.

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OokamiKasumi In reply to BladedMako [2010-06-10 19:51:15 +0000 UTC]

This is one of the most difficult writing techniques to apply (because it often means massive rewrites.) However, once you get used to it, you'll discover that not only does it make your stories clearer; it's actually easier to write this way.

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Arctic-Master In reply to ??? [2010-06-10 17:56:27 +0000 UTC]

O_o;; ... Well...

I managed to banish the word "said" out of my writings. Now, I need to figure out how to banish all the other dialogue tags. XD I find it ironic, as an intermediate writer, that I used BOTH writing traits- dialogue AND action tags, kinda merged into one.

************
My example:

Doug blinked furiously, almost at a loss for words. He composed himself before he spoke, more or less, still shocked. "You're pregnant?"

Jenny turned away, ashamed to have to break the news to her boyfriend. "Yes..." she muttered, almost wishing that she didn't have to tell him.
**********

Though that's just me. X_x With this new advice, I'm probably never even going to use the dialogue tags. 8D The only things that will probably throw me off is when a character's exchanging a conversation with another (whether it be telepathic or just stern faces being exchanged), would be if the characters aren't doing anything at all, or if they're doing something and the two (or three characters) are speaking during that duration of what they're doing.

It's kinda a personal fix for me, so I'm not going to go too into detail with it. X_x I almost started writing a short story...

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OokamiKasumi In reply to Arctic-Master [2010-06-10 18:28:48 +0000 UTC]

"Said" is a perfectly legitimate grammar form. I just happen to have a strong abiding hate for it, but that's just me. If you need it, USE it.

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Arctic-Master In reply to OokamiKasumi [2010-06-10 18:42:04 +0000 UTC]

*Implied that the disclaimer is not for show* ^_^

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OokamiKasumi In reply to Arctic-Master [2010-06-10 22:03:04 +0000 UTC]

Correct.

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Schroduck In reply to ??? [2010-06-06 19:31:21 +0000 UTC]

I'm curious as to what style guide you've based this on - you mention Strunk & White, but that doesn't cover fiction - but several pieces of advice you give are just blatantly incorrect.

The paragraph contains a train of thought, a logical series of connected events, not just individual actions.

As a check, I looked at a handful of books of my shelf by world-renowned authors. Jane Austen ("Elizabeth was surprised, but agreed to it immediately. Miss Bingley succeeded no less in the real object of her civility; Mr Darcy looked up."), Arthur Conan Doyle ("We both put our face to the grating. The prisoner lay with his face towards us."), Terry Pratchett ("Vlad caught up with Agnes as she strode towards the table, and she was slightly glad because she didn't know what she'd do when she got there.") and Neil Gaiman ("Sam waved at some friends. Shadow nodded at some people whose faces - though not names - he remembered from the day he had spent search for Alison McGovern.") all violate these rules, and I can't find even a single person who follows them.

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OokamiKasumi In reply to Schroduck [2010-06-07 03:17:53 +0000 UTC]

I'm curious as to what style guide you've based this on...?
-- Word of mouth from my editors. I have four of them, one for each publishing house I write for.

Darlin',Jane Austin and Arthur Conan Doyle wrote their books over a 100 years ago, and Terry Pratchett started writing back in the 50's so he follows those rules. (By the way, didn't he die recently?) The house rules that publishers follow have changed since then--considerably. As for Neil Gaimen, he's writing for publishing houses in England. I write for American publishers,(Canada AND the US.)

...several pieces of advice you give are just blatantly incorrect.

You're more than welcome to argue with a publishing house's editors, but I assure you, you'll lose. Only best-selling authors get to break the rules because their books will sell in spite of their errors--not Because of them. Nora Roberts head-hops. Stephen King uses run-on paragraphs and lately, occasionally skips using a Plot. Do you honestly think their editors are going to argue with them when they make their company That much money? Not Likely.

The paragraph contains a train of thought, a logical series of connected events, not just individual actions.

Of course it does. My argument is that a paragraph should only belong to ONE Person at a time. A paragraph should have the Actions, Dialogue, and Thoughts--but ONLY that person. The next person gets their own paragraph of Actions and Dialogue. (If you're including the next person's thoughts, then you're Head-Hopping.) *grin*

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Schroduck In reply to OokamiKasumi [2010-06-08 00:01:45 +0000 UTC]

Which publishing house are we talking about, if that's not too impertinent a question? To double check, I've flicked through debut books (so these can't be written by people who "get to break the rules because their books will sell in spite of their errors") from authors on Random House, Harper Collins, Doubleday, Methuen, Penguin and Hodder. Every single one broke the rules mentioned here; especially the part about "head-hopping". Third-person omniscient ([link] ) is a widely accepted narrative voice; I'm genuinely curious as to who's so opposed to it.

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OokamiKasumi In reply to Schroduck [2010-06-09 08:24:25 +0000 UTC]

You have to remember, all editors are Not created equal. My editors enforce these rules, but then my editor from New York is John Scoglimiglio, editor in chief of Kensington. My other editors are from ebook publishers, so I doubt you've heard of them.

As an aside, Ebook publishers are in direct competition with NY publishers, so they tend to be far more attentive about the editing. It's a professional pride thing. *wink*

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OokamiKasumi In reply to Schroduck [2010-06-08 16:39:24 +0000 UTC]

I'm with Loose Id books, Mojo Castle books, Extasy books and Kensington.

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SumaiyaR In reply to ??? [2010-06-05 08:49:51 +0000 UTC]

Thank you very much for the tutorial. I write infrequently of late, but all of my last stories were stumped because of the dialogue infusion. I simply was not finding a way to incorporate both. I've been re-reading all my favourite novels in the hope of identifying what they do that makes the character step out of the dialogue tags and I haven't reached that point yet. *Sigh*

Thank you very much once again. One point I'd like to clarify is: What happens when you describe a scene in general and then move to a person's perspective? Different paragraph appears to be the right answer, but Ive seen a lot of books stick to the same.

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OokamiKasumi In reply to SumaiyaR [2010-06-05 10:20:55 +0000 UTC]

I'm glad my tutorial could clear up a few issues for you!

What happens when you describe a scene in general and then move to a person's perspective?

The key to your problem is that you shouldn't have a Scene in General--one told from No One's POV. Everything, from the first word to the last, should be from Someone's point of view.

If your asking about switching POVs, that should only happen at Scene breaks marked by three stars (***) or at Chapter breaks. NEVER from paragraph to paragraph, that's Head-Hopping.

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RunawayJester In reply to ??? [2010-06-04 05:01:21 +0000 UTC]

Wow, wonderful resource. I think I am a pretty mediocre writer but my biggest concern in writing stories has always been dialogue. I never thought I portrayed it well and moreover I was never sure if I was doing it right. Within the first few lines I saw some mistakes that I made that I never even knew I was making. Especially the whole: "Make a new paragraph at every new line of dialogue." Thank you so much for the clarifications and all the work you did with this wonderful writing resource!

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OokamiKasumi In reply to RunawayJester [2010-06-04 18:09:51 +0000 UTC]

I'm thrilled you liked it! I'm glad I could clear up a few things for you.

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