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punctual3 — Can you call them Pro Life now?
Published: 2013-06-13 15:32:19 +0000 UTC; Views: 7651; Favourites: 181; Downloads: 0
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First of all, 99% of the time, no babies are killed during abortion. Most abortions are carried out when the fetus is just a non-sentient fetus. The few times when they happen during late-term pregnancies is to preserve the mother's life, or when the baby won't survive childbirth.There are, however, loads of instances in which anti-abortionists have directly and indirectly killed actual people. There was that tragedy with Savita Halappanavar, who was refused abortion, and died as a result of a miscarriage: [link] .
There have also been many accounts of anti-abortionists first-degree murdering/injuring doctors and bombing clinics/hospitals (just naming some examples):
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In addition, any attempt to illegalize abortions will just result in making abortions unsafe. Unsafe abortions kill 70,000 women a year. On top of that, an average of 300,000 women die from childbirth each year.
No one who values life would support any of this.
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Comments: 494
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Dear TheArtFrog, may the Grace of Jesus Christ find us all!
I keep my positions and you would have seen them, if you had watched the video links I sent before. There are many positions in the links that are not about religion or churches. They are doctors, Medical Doctors, talking about the abortions they did and, today, they stand against abortion.
I believe we are both trying to defend correct points, but our vocabulary is in the way. When you write abortion, I understand: a medical procedure used to end a pregnancy and cause the death of the fetus. I also consider the intention of the procedure to be the death and removal of the baby, fetus.
Treatments for Ectopic Fetus or Ectopic Pregnancy and Abortion are different.
"Ectopic pregnancy" is when the egg is impeded in it's progress to the uterus and instead implants somewhere along the way. This is called an ectopic pregnancy. “Ectopic” means “out of place.” Ectopic pregnancies are often called “tubal” pregnancies because over 95 percent occur in the fallopian tubes. (fertilized eggs can also implant in the abdomen, ovaries, or within the cervix).
There are treatments for this case and the treatments, even if they have the indirect result of death of the unborn child, are NOT CONSIDERED ABORTIONS.
This happens because of the intention of the treatment. The intention of offering a treatment to a mother is to help her health. The intention of having an abortion is killing a baby. The intention matters.
The treatment for Ectopic Fetus or Ectopic Pregnancy, even if it has the UNINTENDED EFFECT of causing the death of the baby, is not considered an abortion. It is not considered "a medical procedure used to end a pregnancy and cause the death of the fetus", a medical procedure with the intention of killing a baby inside the womb. It is considered a medical procedure to cure a proportionately serious pathological condition in the body of the mother, that is it's primary objective, instead of it's direct purpose being terminating the pregnancy.
There are many positions even outside religion or The Church that oppose abortion. Medical Doctors oppose abortions, Health Workers oppose abortions, Psychology Workers oppose abortion and, in some families, even the Family Members oppose abortions.
Thank you for your comment and I hope I have been able to clarify that there are differences between Ectopic Fetus or Ectopic Pregnancies and Abortion and mention that not all voices against abortion are based in religion.
May the Light of Jesus Christ Illuminate our lives and minds.
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How immature can you be to post a comment on that stamp when that person has already blocked you?
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Hello there, pokemonsonicgirl123! May the Grace of Jesus Christ illuminate our minds!
m.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ka-Zg4t…
This is a very old comment you are replying to. If I managed to make a comment at that time, the situation could be that, then, I was not blocked yet. My guess is that there are no “time” or “date” in the comments.
I do not remember what the discussion was about, though. I just managed to read my reply (the one you tried to complain about).
I found this text talking a little about abortion, even though I do not enter the political sphere of the debate/talk:
They Are Children, Not Problems
www.nationalreview.com/2019/05…
A Conversation with a Former Abortionist: Full Interview with Dr. Anthony Levatino
m.youtube.com/watch?v=kHNzoZ4o…
relampagofurioso.com/2016/02/2…
“When abortion is legalized there is a vertiginous rise in it’s practice. ...
We are talking about more than one hundred percent, in some cases, more than three hundred percent of rise in the practice of abortion with the passage of the years.” - Isabela Mantovani
Dr Bernard Natson
www.catholiceducation.org/en/c…
God bless you!
God loves you a lot, a whole lot!
Come closer to Jesus Christ!
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*sighs* Believe me when I say that I would wish for the need of abortion to be reduced as much as you do. It's agreeable that the best and effective way to start to give proper sex education for teens and pre-teens and make contraceptives more available, possibly having their prices reduced or make them free for people with low incomes. We can reduce the number of orphaned children and the homeless this way, too.
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Thank you for your answer. I do not find much disagreement with what I could still read from the long gone discussion and your current reply. I do strongly oppose the idea of abortion being necessary. Abortion is being used as a contraceptive, but the procedure was never meant to be used like that.
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Yeah, abortion is being used as a contraceptive is pretty stupid in itself. Contraceptives are supposed to prevent pregnancies, not terminate them. And when they fail, abortion is the necessary thing.
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I do not believe in abortion being necessary. Both parties involved in “reproduction” know of the consequences of reproduction. I believe that, once there is a confirmation of pregnancy, humanity has a new life being formed. This new life is Sacred and has rights. The right to Live being one of them.
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I cannot change your views on abortion. We're simply human for making choices, even the hard ones.
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Hello, pokemonsonicgirl123!
I will stand against abortion and say that I do not find it to be a choice, butI want wish you a wonderful weekend with this reply!
God bless you!
God loves you all a lot!
Come closer to Jesus Christ!
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Exactly! Ireland has anti-abortion laws!
And this is the result:
Some Pro-lifers Really Need to Understand This...Ireland has had anti-abortion laws for around 30 years now. It has proven time and time again that anti-abortion laws do not even prevent abortion, and they make it very dangerous for a poor woman to be pregnant, especially if she develops a lethal abnormality.
This is what anti-abortion laws mean in Ireland.
Sick women are legally unable to receive the help that they need until they are at literally about to die.Women who have illnesses like cancer, heart disease or organ damage are unable to get help at all during pregnancy.
25000 women have travelled abroad to the UK in just the last 5 years, desperately seeking much needed terminations. And these are just the lucky ones who can afford it. In some cases, doctors are unable to access information on certain birth pr
Two of my friends nearly died due to these laws (luckily they're still here to tell the tale). The anti-abortion laws are ridiculous, outdated and downright dangerous!
If you read the description of my stamp, there is a link to a documentary on the issue too:
The unborn are NOT the born. They are the potential for a life, but not a life itself yet. People need to get this through their heads and stop treating women as incubators as if their bodies don't matter.
A living breathing human being should have more rights to their own body than a growth of cells growing inside it, whether it be a parasite, a tumour, or an embryo.
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That's really awful that your friends had to go through that
Good article. ALL pro-lifers should read it.
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I live in Northern Ireland, which is apart of the U.K., and they don't allow abortions unlike the rest of the U.K. because of the low-life religious shithead politicians who think a unborn kid being born is more important than a pregnant teenage rape victim and their country should follow their beliefs.
I'd rather abort a rape baby than keep it, I don't do sharing children with rapists.
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I agree with you! But as for me I'd rather either keep the baby or give it up for adoption.
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You are in favour of judging whole groups based on the actions of a few extremists?
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No. I am in favour of judging groups based on their delusional beliefs.
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You murder supporters are delusional.
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Then why did you list a few extremists?
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I did more than list a few extremists. I also listed the statistics of women dying from childbirth, and from unsafe abortions, which are all caused by the prolife movement.
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Yes, you did list more.
That still doesn't change the fact that you listed a few extremists to make a point about a group.
But you can do that with bascially absolutely every movement.
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....listing the statistics of childbirth mortality and deaths related to unsafe abortions actually makes a HUGE difference.
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Now you are making an argument that extremists are wrong, because their movement is wrong.
I have to admit, that is a different thing.
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Both the extremists and the movement itself cause deaths. That's the argument. It's really amazing how you can't understand this.
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I can't understand where the connection is.
Imagine I want to argue against left-wing politics. And in the same article, I list the Rote Armee Fraktion murders.
Instead of providing actual proof, I decide to trigger an emotional response.
You argued that abortion is never murder, because they happen early or are medically necessary. But you provide no evidence that it is really always the case. Instead you talk about terrorists and about something that seems to be a malpractice error. I mean, the doctors knew it was a miscarriage, but still denied removing the foetus. It isn't completely unambiguous.
Then you list some numbers. Pretty alarming ones.
I assume these are just about pro-life countries. And that most of the coathanger abortions where not late therm and that most of the women that died during childbirth wanted abortions and where denied.
Otherwise those numbers would be flat out manipulative.
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1. I DID give proof for murders caused by prolifers. It's not my fault you didn't follow the links.
2. Here's proof of the majority of abortions happening in the early term: www.livestrong.com/article/193… (Read the section under "Statistics" and under "Reasons"
3. If the doctors knew it was a miscarriage and knew that it was never going to grow into a baby and KNEW that it was going to harm the mother (which they did), they had no excuse for denying the removal.
4. Of course unsafe abortions take place where abortion is illegal. Why would they seek unsafe abortions if safe abortions were an option?
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1. I didn't say you did not prove the murders. I said you discussed murders instead of proving all abortions are in the early month our made out of medical necessity.
2. Well, you send the link now, so let's take a look. It says 1,5% are late therm, so that is correct. The Reasons part is less helpful. It says the reasons are "various", but it does not list them all and the only percentage it mentions is "some".
Now that I think about it, are pro-choice generally for or against late term abortions?
3. Exactly, they had no excuse. Just like any other case of malpractice.
4. Abortions are also expensive. Admittedly, illegal abortions probably would go down, but the question is how much. Now the number of maternal deaths is really interesting. Childbirth is pretty safe in industrial countries. So I assume those happen in less developed countries. What those women need is better general medical care and not different abortions laws.
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Call the incident with the pro-life doctors whatever you want, but it still serves as an example of deaths caused by the pro-life movement.
Either way, any reason to have an abortion is valid, regardless of the reason. I'm fairly sure that most pro-choicers disapprove of late-term abortions.
Yes, abortions are expensive, one of the reasons being that the pro-life movement works to make it less easily accessible. Also, not all women in developing countries want to have children; access to safe abortions are needed as much as medical care concerning childbirth. Deaths related to childbirth also do happen in developed countries.
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I'm fairly sure that most pro-lifers disapprove of terrorism.
You know, you bring up an interesting question.
Women dying of illegal abortions in third world countries is widely discusses. More widely than malaria, which kills half a million children (and another half million adults) a year. Yet, I don't think I have ever seen a malaria stamp.
I guess that means a woman dying because of an illegal abortion is at least 8 times more tragic than a child dying of malaria.
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That doesn't change the fact that their movement is harmful.
Yes, there are some things that have killed more than unsafe abortions, but what's your point? It doesn't mean that we shouldn't talk about it.
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Can you say with absolute certainty that there are absolutely no unnecessary late term abortions?
Or that no mother got pressured by someone into abortion she didn't want?
When is late term abortion anyway? The sources I read say something between the first and third trimester.
I ask, because in many countries, baby with the wrong gender get aborted. But after the first 12 weeks ultrasound is actually less reliable than a coin toss.
The point is that the reporting should be proportionate. If it is not, someone is pushing an agenda.
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No. But that doesn't mean that abortion is wrong. It also doesn't disqualify necessary late term abortion. Likewise, the fact that there are forced abortions doesn't disqualify abortions that are done with consent.
Late term abortions happen during the second trimester, which begins at week 20 (approx. 4 months).
Well, that's very interesting for you to say, since I don't see you speaking out against the harms caused by the pro life movement.
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I did not say it means abortion is wrong. But you said the actions of a few are an example of deaths caused by a movement. You would think a woman being forced to have an abortion would be their concern, because she does not have a choice in that matter, yet there is nothing on their website about it.
That can't be right. If the second trimester begins at 4 month, then pregnancies would last a full year.
50% of us already pointed out the harms caused by the pro-life movement. That seems proportionate to me.
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Pro-choicerss don't advocate forced abortion, hence the phrase "pro-choice" as opposed to "pro-abortion".
i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n…
But malaria and abortion have nothing to do with each other, so there's no need to bring up the former in a debate about the latter.
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They don't do anything against forced abortion. You would think an organization advocating that women can do what they want with their body would be concerned about that.
That graph says after 12 weeks, you said 20.
Malaria matters because you seem more concerned with abortion clinics than with clinics.
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How do you know?
No it doesn't. Read the graph again. The second trimester begins at four months.
That's like me making the argument that you care more about fetuses than about babies.
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There is nothing on their homepage about it.
I read it again, it says after 12 weeks.
No it isn't.
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They don't have just one homepage.
Read the row that starts with "This is month" and look at the month directly above the second trimester.
Yes it is.
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I'm just gonna go ahead and say. "It's the mothers decision whether she wants to abort it or not. If she wants to, then let her. But if she doesn't, don't shame her for it."
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I support making it illegal for people that are pregnant from consensual sex and not in danger to abort.
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When did this shame someone?
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And that's why, I'll be getting my ovaries (eggs) cut off.
What? It's not like I killed anyone.
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Pro-choicer here. Are you including fetuses in the statement "abortion has", or? I think this is confusing some pro-lifers.
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No, I'm not. Fetuses are not people.
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So... what then is a fetus? How do you define it?
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I define it as a potential human.
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