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QuantumBranching — New Fatherland map
#alternate #fatherland #history #map #nazis
Published: 2014-11-22 04:15:04 +0000 UTC; Views: 60079; Favourites: 199; Downloads: 574
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Description
A new take on the world of Robert Harris's Nazi victory tale, "Fatherland." Europe modified from the map in his book to better take into account some stuff the Nazis appear to have been planning OTL (of course, the flock of kooks around Hitler were always arguing)Some of the internal border stuff stolen from Blomma: will return the borders if required!
It's 1964, and there is change in the wind. A US president is coming for an official visit to Berlin. There is hope that the Frozen War, which has been going on since the Germans demonstrated both their atomic capacity and their ability to deliver it to NY [1] in one alarming month, may finally be moving towards some sort of detente.
This is not good news for the British government in exile (a collaborating regime and good old King Edward run Britain with considerable freedom from direct German interference), and worse for the Free French, who are heavily dependent on US support for their very survival as anything but a joke country scattered through little island groups. It's nervous-making for the Soviets, too, who feel it's only US support (however grudging) that prevents the Germans from inflicting a nuclear Final Solution on their eastern irritant.
Of course, a great many Americans find the Free French a pain in the ass, and many outright loathe the Soviets, who although less wasteful of human lives than the Stalinist regime (too many Russians have died already), are even more totalitarian in their control of every aspect of their citizen's lives, including reproductive ones (too many Russians have died already). And they may have also killed millions of Jews, whisper German propagandists. [2]
Hitler is hopeful. He'd rather have the US reduced to melted glass, but he's realistic enough to know that Germany can't do it without being destroyed itself(not yet, no matter how Speer and Von Braun go on about future orbiting anti-missile systems), and he wants his Reich to have at least a fighting chance to last that millennium. Although Parkinsons has reduced him to needing an interpreter to speak to Germans [3] and his written orders shake like a seismograph needle, his mind still works (his becoming convinced while in a drug delirium that Dr. Morell was a Jewish poisoner and having him executed turned out to be a good thing in the long run).
(Mussolini will not be part of the negotiations: although the Italian propaganda machine still portrays him as the ultimate Macho Man, he's mostly bedridden nowadays).
The elderly US president is also hopeful - if he can end the deadly arms race with the Germans and reduce tension to a low ebb, he will be able to end his term as one of the greats, and keep his party in the White House in '65. Who cares about about a bunch of Commies and French parasites on the US economy? And the Jews? Well, it's over with now, whatever actually happened, and no point in crying about spilled milk when he has a chance to keep the northern hemisphere from being reduced to a cinder. Hopefully those goddamn Indonesian fools don't mess things up.
The world spins on madly. The US-German race to the Moon continues (the Americans have finally surpassed the Germans as rocket engineers: this has not become clear yet). The Japanese are selling a lot of cheap crap to the US (although the current regime is lefty, they're rather pragmatic about the profit motive), and a vote to eliminate the monarchy has been defeated again. The Muslim parts of the Indian confederation are arguing for more devolution again (and more funding). The Left and the Right clash bloodily in the streets of Buenos Aires. Another Argentine, who became a T-shirt OTL, is teaching Angolan fighters the latest in terrorist technique. China is currently undergoing a meltdown as the *Cultural revolution begins to turn into an outright civil war (the assassination of Mao didn't help at all). And the Soviets are pursuing an alternative to the US nuclear umbrella...
[1] A bluff, actually - the V weapon which took out a chunk of Wall Street couldn't have carried one of the heavy, clunky early nukes.
[2] The Germans have a million stories as to what Actually Happened to all those Jews who no longer are to be seen anywhere by Reich visitors. The fact that many of them contradict does not seem to bother them, any more than it does their western apologists.
[3] He still gives speeches - over the radio and TV, through a voice double.
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Comments: 49
Hey QuantumBranching, Im a really big fan of this map, and from time to time i come back to it. However i really wished there was a aftermath version, like set in 1994, or 2004 or something like that. Could you perhaps make it happen?
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Maybe one of these days. Drop me a reminder in a month or two.
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Seconding. Would be cool to see.
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Dropping that reminder
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Is the German Congo like the Congo Free State. It would be one of the most ghastly things imaginable.
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Oh, it's better than it used to be. Since the climate doesn't encourage European settlement, and labor is needed, the current administration is no longer killing off the Congolese faster than they can reproduce.
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How did the Soviet Union manage to screw the pooch in this universe?
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They were destroyed by the dread monster, the Authorial Thumb (on the scales). Can't recall offhand how Harris explained it.
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Will they ever regain the lands beyond the Urals?
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What would happen to Ireland had the Nazi won WWII?
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Depends on the level of the German victory, I suppose: "careful neutrality" is probably as good as it gets in the case of German conquest of Britain. (But then Germany taking over England was extremely unlikely, and only did so in this map because I am using someone else's scenario.)
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Interesting - I've wanted to see a good world map for "Fatherland" for a long time.
I'm surprised that the Communists won so completely in China without any Soviet intervention and even took Taiwan, but I suppose that the USA and allies were too focused on the continuing Nazi menace to worry about supporting the Nationalists.
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In fact, many in the US had rather little hope for Taiwan in our own timeline, and quite a few in Truman's government felt that Chiang wasn't worth the trouble to save - it was in part due to the icy freeze relations with Red China went into once they intervened in Korea that the US took a really strong line on defending Taiwan and recognizing it as the "true" China. Of course it's possible, even likely, that even without the Korean war we would eventually have reluctantly sent in the navy to prevent Mao from invading - no president wanted to be seen as giving anything way to the Communists - but that such attitudes existed in our history made it seem plausible that in a world where the big enemy was Fascism we'd be unwilling to save the bacon of Chiang's (frankly a bit fascistic) regime.
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How did the Germans deal with the Yugoslav Partisans?
And have any of the Nazi racial policies been repealed now that Hitler is incapable of ruling?
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The partisans just got crushed, they have suffered massive defeats OTL (look at case black), as soon the war against the allies ended, most of them just gave up the fight, and the ones who stood got killed
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Who replaced Mao when he died? Lin Biao? Jiang Qing? It certainly wasn't Zhou Enlai or another relative moderate.
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Well,I think control the northern Korean is more easier than occupying Taiwan for PRC.
Because at that time the Northern East China was full filled by railway,while Fujian is not.
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If I may, Mr. ChaircarMao(is not Chairman?).. I sincerly thinks that probably the reason why taiwan is occupied by the PRC is probably because it was recognized chinese territory by the American(or most probably given as compensation by the USA) while China was still ruled by the Kountigang(sorry spelling), I don't understand otherwise why Taiwan is Chinese territory, not taking the consideration the old issues of red/blu ideologies, is mostly given to the fact that though officially the ROC proclaim the "reunification" of taiwan to the mainland china after the WW2, American authorities, since Japanese rule in Taiwan dates backs to 1895, still consider Taiwan as Japanese territory under military occupation until 1952, with the Treaty of San Francisco, the official peace treaty between Japan and the rest of the world (literary since only after that Japan was recognized as member of the UN) and therefore, since it probably weight on that decision the Cold war and the result of the Chinese Civil War(1946-1949), with Chang-Kai-sheng who is forced to refuge on Taiwan(who probably in this alternative never make in time) it would make sense if otherwise if not under Japanese authority, the island, given also its strategic position, would be run as a indipendent stae, probably with the Protection of the US. however, I had to point out that in the book never point out if china is effective under a communist government so ................................................................................................. QuantumBranching!!!!!! ........................................................................................................... What do you said about that?
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Well,in briefly,do you mean that the PRC is still a political power of KMT,not CCP.
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Actually no, It's probably my fault since I usually tend to confuse people with my "speech", what I mean to say is that;
1. In the book there is not any accent to China being a communist state, though a character told to the protagonist that it would be better to him to go into a lager, that to go in China(for reason unknow to the readers), though it seem that at least China is neutral in the Nazi-American Cold War.
2. That I think that the reason Taiwan is under the control of the PRC is probably due to a more political result(change of regime, not necessary a pacific one, a civil war is good but doesn't concern matter of international law(I'm studying inernational law/political science at the State University of Milan) that a military/pratical one(like you point out North Korea paradoxical would more pratical to invade for China than Taiwan, which is why probably the OTL results to today looks like this).
3. That, actually, in this universe the KMT must have been completly destroyed and Chang-Kai-sheng must be died during the Chinese Civil War, is difficult to imagine otherwise that the United States, given also the important position in the region of Taiwan, would recognize the island to the communist government with still remain of the KMT on the Island, even in this world as its put down on the legenda of the map the USA are allied to the Soviet Union more for pragmatic reason than to other reason, therefore is dubtful that the Usa would recognize the island to Mao-Tse-Tung given the fame he had in the 50s in the American public opinion and the probably would seen him as a trustworthy character in the logic of the Nazis/American Cold War, though maybe(without offense to the chinese) they see even the chinese communist as the lesser evil to Nazi Germany(that is hard to confuted).
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P.S. Error Mistake, Crimen et cetera, Imade an error in the fourth phrase from the bottom, the correct one is:
"Therefore is doubtful that the Usa would recognize the island to Mao-tse-tung, given the fame he had in the 50s in the American public opinion, and they would see him as a trustworthy character even in the logic of the Nazis/American Cold War. though maybe(without offense to the chinese and the PRC) they see even the chinese communist as the lesser evil to Nazi Germany(this is hard to confuted)."
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Interesting expansion of Harris's universe. I like how he doesn't explicitly spell out how the Nazis won in Europe. I always imagined that the U.S. lost the Battle of Midway and/or Hawaii was invaded, thus focusing on defeating the Japanese first.
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If I do recall corretly in the book, Robert Harris, think that the Axis manage to win the war in Europe after they are able to discover that the British have the ability to traslate the Enigma codes, which allowed the encription of the German military plans and codes, and, after the discovery, the Nazis change secretly the keys to the encription code and therefore the British are unable to traslate the code anymore and are forced to fight a war in the dark, while the U-boat are able to cripple the UK supply chains forcing England to surrender(At least, I think that inside England started to growing opposition to continuing the war, which eventually deposed Churchill and the King who latter are both able to escape in Canada), later the Nazis are able to win in the east since they can concentrate theirs forces against the Ussr, and the nazis conquest Moscow, in the meantime the United States(which is unsure whatever the Usa are in actual war or not with nazis germany too, during WW2) are able to defeat Japan, launching the nuclear bombs to Hiroshima and Nagasaki, however the Nazis are already completed their nuclear program and test their G-Bomb(not clear if is in the Svalband Islands or in Algeria) and they are able to develop a new missile the V-3, a intercontinental balistic missile armed with a convetional bomb and sent it to New York where it explode(take in cosideration that at the time, without laser targeting is difficult to determine the precise target location, so I'm not entirely sure if actually fell on the city or at bay as reported in the book), threating to send the next one with a nuclear warhead, the nazis are able to reach a ceasefire with the USA and the Second World War official ends in 1946.
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Another possibility is that Hitler decided not to declare war on the United States. Roosevelt would have had a hard time convincing Congress to enter the European war after the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, especially if they won the Battle of Midway and/or invaded Hawaii, too.
If pressure on England became too great, that country could have made a deal with Hitler. Some historians argue that he didn't push hard for Operation Sea Lion because his heart wasn't in it: he admired the English to some extent and wanted to preserve the British Empire. I think at least an armistice would have been possible if Hitler had acted rationally and offered acceptable terms such as no invasion or a nonaggression treaty.
Of course, Nazi Germany would have had a hard time defeating the USSR. Maybe not impossible, but the Germans had a narrow window of opportunity. Maybe if they made deals with the peoples who hated Stalin it would have been possible, but that's a big if since the Nazis considered the Slavs subhuman. The Germans might have won if their plans had gone perfectly and the Russians had blundered one way or another.
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Quibble with the description: it's Robert Harris, not Richard.
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P.S. Dear Mr. QuantumBranching,
Would you be so kind to give your impression (except about the bad english grammar used) in the note of Paikal26626 under the note of Mr. ChairCar(not Chairman)Mao?
I would be truly interested in your opinion.
Asking forgiveness about my lazy and, "sometimes", stupid character.
Truly Yours,
Paikal26626
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That's a really good take on Fatherland.
I particularly like how troubled the US-American superpower is (increasing opposition in the western hemisphere, decaying allies) instead of dominating the world.
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Well, it's not like most of the Third World was really on board with the US in our world's Cold War...
Besides, the existence of free western Europe was always a showcase for western democracy and prosperity which doesn't exist in this world, and a major US market: it being under Nazi rule is a major weakening of the US position compared to our Cold War. The US is still much stronger economically than the Reich.
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I imagine the British and Irish populatio are treated either as near equals to Nazi Germans or extremely badly according to their socio-economic background, mirroring the Koreans under Japanese occupation?
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I imagine it'd be as bad as the Eastern territories in parts of Ireland (the occasional village uprooted and double to triple digit executions on a monthly basis, with SS trained Protestant Loyalist units not pulling punches) while in Scotland and England there is a lot of nasty soft power excerted (with British people slowly becoming Germanised, with some ambitious recruits learning German and even assuming German surnames to get past the glass ceiling in the Nazi German homeland).
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Somewhat - after all, the UK and Ireland aren't under full occupation the way Korea was. The default on meeting a Brit or Irish would, I think, be polite but somewhat condescending...
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Outside of Africa and Asia, I'd say Ireland would be a good place for a proxy war ITTL. Ireland trying to join the EC for cash, America offers them aid and the promise of unification if they side with them, US armed openly lefty IRA fighting the German/British armed Unionist government, with lots of massacres and reprisal killings.
Also I'd actually predict an SU-Indian alliance in the future, especially if China goes belly up. Canada and FF trying to form their own block if the Americans are looking to ditch their anti-German stance. Maybe even French reconciliation if the Germans agree to pull back from Western Europe during the detente.
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Really surprised this Soviet Union isn't going then any of OTL China with th military instead of then arty running things.
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Party always had a very tight control on the military in our world, don't see why it would be different.
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You described it as an army with a state so I figured the military was firmly in control.
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Ah, OK. I was thinking more in the sense of Prussia: the ruler (The Party/the royals) are ultimately in charge, although the share of the state budget and resources that goes into the military is grossly disproportionate.
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Understandably rather paranoid about the long-term survival of their people. Antisemitism is less acceptable in the US and its anglophone allies than OTL at this time, although the Holocaust remains "unconfirmed", since it is seen as a marker of Nazi sympathizers. Surviving Soviet Jews are more tolerated than OTL as well - as long as they remember that they are primarily "Soviets" and not "Jews" - due to anti-Nazi solidarity and there not being any Israel to confuse things ideologically.
In Nazi puppet states and allies outside of Europe, Anti-semitism, of course, comes with the package.
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I wish someone would take this scenario into the 1990's.
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That could be pretty interesting actually... Nazi Detente, neutralization of Western Europe, German Decolonization of Africa/former Russia.
Probably end up looking a bit like this.
quantumbranching.deviantart.co…
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35 no flying saucer here.XD
This is quite different from Iron Sky.
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I'm assuming at least twice as many Soviet deaths from war, famine (famine was to be deliberately used as a weapon in Nazi policy) and general atrocities, plus tens of millions remain in the European parts of the USSR as a German slave labor caste. The rump USSR probably has less than half the population it had in our world in 1964, even counting the (fairly small) boosts from the annexation of their puppets in Mongolia and Xinjiang. Maybe 90-100 million to the 230 million OTL at the time?
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So is that mean there would've been more Russians living in Mongolia and Xinjang than in are world?
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Is it safe to assume that due to the war deaths there is a big gender skew towards women
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Interesting - did the Indian Confederation win outright independence against British wishes or did they go the OTL Dominion of India route then boot out George (or Edward, depending on how you look at it)? Hitler did IOTL suggest that post-war German troops could 'help' the British keep control of India, but here it might not have been possible given their control seems to be limited to Europe and Africa.
I presume Hitler having Morrell killed is the POD; of course, the question is whether a Hitler still coherent enough to act as Commander-in-Chief would actually benefit the Wehrmacht or hamper them further. Perhaps his new physicians prefer to keep him sedated rather than pumping him full of cocaine and methamphetamine?
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The second option: the Americans made it clear that they would not be happy at all about major Nazi military assets being deployed east of Iraq, and the British government in any event wasn't quite so craven as to essentially hand over India to the Nazis, which would be the long-term result of leaving it to the Wehrmacht to "maintain order." (There was also some doubt as to the loyalty of the British forces in India).
Nah, multiple PODs including a maximally successful Nazi nuclear program, delayed US entry into the war, and, er, Wallis Simpson dies in China? Short of ASB events, you probably need multiple PODs or starting your divergences in the 1920s to get a Nazi victory, at least IMHO.
(Killing off Morrell had more to do with keeping Hitler functional into the 60s as in the actual novel, something which didn't seem likely the way he was going by '45.)
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