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confusedbiscuit In reply to Miss-Barker [2021-09-02 18:48:34 +0000 UTC]

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SkyebobPiepants In reply to asti-friend [2015-04-11 23:16:19 +0000 UTC]

The tanks are being made significantly larger, so at least that is something. I just hope he lives long enough to see the completion, he's already passed the average life expectancy. He will be 38 years old when it's completed. That's very old for a male, but can be done.

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SkyebobPiepants In reply to paun [2015-04-12 02:15:31 +0000 UTC]

Tilikum is not kept alone. Right now he spends almost all his time with Trua (and has for the last 4 years) and they get along extremely well. Before that he spent most of his time with Taima.
Tilikum has issues because of the way he was treated at Sealand where he lived until he was 12 years old (childhood is the most important life stage) and is not representative of the upbringing the orcas at SeaWorld get.

All of the orcas currently in SW have groups that they get on with and they are maintained in those groups or with the whole pod most of the time. If they don't get along, they are not placed with each other. This is why Tilikum is not kept with Katina often, and why Corky and Ulises are rarely put together.

Also, that social dynamic changes over time and they make new friends and change their social patterns based on that. For example, the social dynamic changed at SWC when Keet, Ike and Shouka arrived.
Shouka is Kalia's closest buddy after her direct family. So, Kalia deliberately changed her own social dynamics and decided she liked this new whale and chose to spend time with this new whale and form a bond, over whales she has lived with her whole life, like Orkid or Corky.  Shouka was the first unrelated whale to meet Kalia's baby because they get on so well. It is already well known and scientifically proven that the orcas learn new dialects and adjust when they meet new individuals. Shouka already makes the 'Kasatka family' calls and Shouka, Keet and Ike, get on extremely well with everyone at SWC. Corky, Keet and Ikaika are very close since the move.
 When Takara moved to Texas, she became matriarch and her and Unna are also very close (as is the whole pod). The assumption that the animals just can not at all get along after a move is completely baseless. It is a personality issue if they don't get along. Not a species issue or a dialect issue.

Dorsal bends have nothing to do with mental state. Everyone already knows this.

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paun In reply to SkyebobPiepants [2015-04-17 00:58:45 +0000 UTC]

Tilikum is not kept alone. Right now he spends almost all his time with Trua (and has for the last 4 years) and they get along extremely well. Before that he spent most of his time with Taima.

I know about Trua and about Taima and how well he gets along with them. Then again he's never had an issue with other whales, it was always them with him.

again you are telling me things I already know. However, Seaworld isn't a better place. It's better then Sealand, but not a better place.

All of the orcas currently in SW have groups that they get on with and they are maintained in those groups or with the whole pod most of the time. If they don't get along, they are not placed with each other. This is why Tilikum is not kept with Katina often, and why Corky and Ulises are rarely put together.

Keep in mind that orcas need structure in their pods which right now they do not. Though Seaworld will think twice in moving orcas about after Blackfish when they did so in the past, they brought strangers together, ripped families apart. In the wild these pods are made of mothers, daughters, sons and grandchildren for their entire lives, minus L-87 Onyx who is the only known orca to drift between pods.

Though his situation is much different as females are the more dominate and he lost his mother in L pod very young (young males don't do well without their mother) he decided to drift to more dominate females in K-pod until they died, then went to J-pod after the two females died. He currently resides with J-pod normally around Granny and Blackberry and will sometimes visit his relatives in L-pod (Sister and Nephew) and Mystery (His cousin)

No one said they couldn't get along after a move, though there has been many instances where a language barrier has caused issues. Though it is possible that they learned another dialect to get along better. And they don't 'get along' that well, they are forced to but then again they are also comatosed on a long list of drugs that they just lie there dead to the world for many hours of the day.

Dorsal bends are not common in healthy orcas, they only happen in 1% of the wild populations and normally occur due to ill health when an orca remains logging at the surface, which is basically what is occured to 100% of adult captive males. If it was so common and normal, then why doesn't it happen more often in the wild? You should see big tall almost over 6 ft, Mega, Onyx and Blackberry, heck even Mike, beautiful tall and strong as they poke towards the sky.

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SkyebobPiepants In reply to paun [2015-04-17 10:45:46 +0000 UTC]

First you say,
"the bend in their dorsels are not due to age they are due to stress. These animals are under stress."
Then I say, no that is not correct.
Now you say
"Dorsal bends are not common in healthy orcas, they only happen in 1% of the wild populations and normally occur due to ill health when an orca remains logging at the surface"

Dorsal collapse is about gravity. It is that simple. It's not stress or illness. They spend time at the surface (such as when they are sick in the wild. Correlation does not imply causation), their dorsal will drop. The tissue in the dorsal is not connected to their emotions. In captivity, all the animals spend significantly more time at the surface, not because they are sick, but because their lives are different and more restricted. (Which is true for every.single.animal in captivity)

First you say,
" As for Tilikum, he's left alone the majority of his time and lately in the last two months reports are coming out that he looks depressed and lethargic."
Then I say no, that is not correct.
Now you say
"I know about Trua and about Taima and how well he gets along with them."
If he is with Trua almost 100% of the time (And Taima prior), explain to me how he is left alone the majority of his time?

You can not prove that language has any effect on how the animals get along. There is no such study and it does not make sense. All animals rely on body language and energy first and foremost, it transcends language. I don't see why orcas would be different and there is zero scientific evidence to back up such a claim, and the animals in captivity prove it is not the case as they are accepted based on energy/personality/body language.

Not all orcas in the wild stay with their mothers. Some populations that is true, other populations it is not. Transients in particular do not stay with their family, as large pods make it difficult to hunt their prey and they are more efficient in smaller pods, so they leave their mothers.

"Keep in mind that orcas need structure in their pods which right now they do not. Though Seaworld will think twice in moving orcas about after Blackfish when they did so in the past"
SW California:
Corky has not moved since she was acquired by SW almost 30 years ago.
Ulises has not moved since he was acquired by SW over 20 years ago.
Kasatka has been Matriarch there for 25 years.
Orkid, Nakai, Kalia, Makani, Amaya were all born there and have never moved.
Shouka has not moved since she was acquired by SW 3 years ago.
Keet and Ikaika moved 3-4 years ago respectively, with Keet already having good relationships with most of the residents.


SW Florida
Tilikum has not moved since he was acquired by SW 23 years ago.
Katina has been matriarch for over 30 years.
Trua, Nalania, Malia and Makaio were born at the park and never moved.
Kayla moved almost 10 years ago (to gain parenting skills)


SW Texas
Ky has not moved since he was acquired by SW over 22 years ago.
Sakari and Kamea were born at the park and never moved.
Unna and Tuar are siblings and were moved  13 and 11 years respectively.
And Takara moved and became Matriarch 6 years ago.

Then Loro Parque almost 10 years ago the animals moved there. (Though I will never defend SW on that situation, it was disgusting)

Blackfish was released 2 years ago. The moves started slowing down long before then. Yes, they used to move a lot. Kasatka and Katina were moved so much in the 80's, but have not moved in 25-30 years. Some moves were beneficial for the animals. Ike, Keet, Shouka were all moved and benefited the individual and the pod. Takara moving to Texas benefited the Texas pod. Other moves were not, like the Loro move. But if Blackfish does any good, it is that even though SW had started slowing down their moves, this will make it a lot harder and that is a good thing. Also keep in mind that the owners of SW have switched hands multiple times since SW opened. The people running the organization in the 80's and 90's are not the same people who are running it now.

If you think all the orcas are on drugs, then believe all animals in captivity are constantly on drugs. People don't understand why medication is given to animals so they get scared and say it's bad. I like science and don't rely on my emotions to make decisions for me.
I'd like to know what individuals are 'constantly' on medication?

 Splash was one individual who was constantly on medication his whole life; he had epilepsy and required it, because, you know, science.
Unna has been on long term medication after her health declined in 2005. I'm not sure if she remains on it or if her health has improved in the last 5 years.
When Kalia was young, she was on constant medication, which stopped when her health improved at 6 years old.
A week after giving birth to Nalani, Katina was re-introduced to her sons Taku and Ikaika, but this caused issues and Katina started neglecting and attacking her 2 week old daughter. They could have removed Nalani and bottlefed to protect her, instead they gave the animals some (note: temporary) medication to 'calm' them. Katina didn't start looking after her daughter correctly until both Taku and Ikaika were removed from the park 2 months later.

Where is your evidence all the animals are on 'constant' medication? Or do you mean vitamins and birth control?.. Proof is nice.

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paun In reply to SkyebobPiepants [2015-04-20 05:03:58 +0000 UTC]

Yes, it is about gravity because when an orca lives in the wild he/she will spend many moments of their life diving and swimming not logging at the surface if they are healthy, but an orca that is unhealthy will log thus causing the fin to bend. Nothing you or I said is any different, but if these animals are lying around dead all the time there is something very wrong. I saw a video with Amaya swimming in utter boredom, it is clear she has alot of energy and no where to use it on and in the corner, Kalia is just lying there one her side motionless. If she wasn't breathing, I would of thought her dead.

When I wrote that post I believe it was written before I knew about Trua being introduced into back pool with Tilly. So no, he is not alone anymore and he has bonded well with his Grandson, if he does get released I hope they take Trua with him, honestly he's had so much taken away from him, I don't think he  can another.

I can because it happens in human society all the time, and humans are an animal species. We bicker and fight because we can't understand each other, or  don't understand someones culture or skin color, humans are perfect examples of this. There is evidence that each pod structure has it's own language that they learn at a young age from their mothers and grandmothers. And there was evidence when Corky heard her pods voices no one but her reacted in the tank. No one understood any of it. To think that humans are the only ones able to commuicate different languages is ridicious.

Yes, I know they do not. But the majority do. And the ones that do leave, usually come back to visit, they aren't fully out of their mothers lives once they leave, they always come back home. I also find it interesting that you say a large pod makes it harder to hunt when many wild orcas use large pods to stun and trap their prey. I haven't seen it too often in Transcients, but the ones that live in the artic and anartica do it all the time.

An orca pod normally consists of mothers, daughters, sons and grandchildren. Minus Onyx who is the abnormality. You have the grandmother who leads the pod and her daughters under her. There is rarely change in the stucture (Onyx again is the odd one, I love him, but his situation is strange).  It has been awhile since they have moved them, Tilikum won't be moved, same with Ulises. Both parks want to keep their largest attractions one per park. (though Tilikum would fair better if he was in the same park as Ulises)

Loro Parque is as much scum as Marineland honestly, if I had to compare SW to them, I would say SW is the lesser evil, evil but still better then those hellholes. Those whales shouldn't be in Spain, Morgan should still be in the wild with her family. That whole situation is disturbing.

I think Blackfish is more of making people more aware and less ignorant but people seem to forget that before Blackfish there was Free Willy and before even that there was science and many people who stood up against marine parks decades before Free Willy was released. Seaworld will have to evolve now because the world is watching, the public is now more aware of the BS then before and they won't be able to do anything without being scutinized for it.

And I also want to point out that most of my compliants with SW isn't because of Blackfish, Blackfish yes, exposed and made my hate deeper for them, but I've seen wild orcas, I've seen their gorgeous beauty and behaviors when I visit my uncle on Vancover Island in mid Spring, we just spend all day watching them go about their lives in freedom and then you look at these whales in these tanks and know deep down something isn't right. Nothing about this is right.

I also know about Splash, he was a Canadian orca first, though I never met him as I have never been to Marineland. Glad I never put a cent in that place. And that is different, he needed it. But these whales shouldn't need to be drugged all the time just to function.  There is a huge difference between giving them drugs to live and giving them drugs to keep them suppress and manipulable. Orcas very rarely ever act aggressive to one another in the wild, sometimes the young ones act up and their mothers make them shape up but it's never aggressive to be harmful. Yet they have to give them medication just so they can bear being around each other? Or with their trainers, which btw there has never been a recorded case of orcas ever harming humans again in the wild. Or swallowing stones, or chewing on clement. And wild orcas eat way different diets in the real world. It's just... What.

For your drugging information:

www.thedodo.com/seaworld-admit…
www.onegreenplanet.org/news/se…
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/artic…
www.thedodo.com/seaworld-orca-…
news.discovery.com/animals/wha…

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SkyebobPiepants In reply to paun [2015-04-27 15:46:11 +0000 UTC]

[Long post]

And all the links you just gave about the 'drug use' never actually mentioned what orcas were given them, except the instance I already mentioned with Katina which was temporary, then one instance with Val when he was becoming sexually mature, also temporary.
They say, 'some were almost constantly on medication' which is true as I have pointed out, Unna is on constant medication, splash was on constant medication, and Kalia was on constant medication until she was 6 years old. 3 orcas on constant medication.
Then they bring up birth control. Yup. That means apparently Taima was on constant medication and Kohana is on constant medication and whoever else on birth control are on constant medication. (but seriously.. Can we grow up a bit here and say birth control is not bad?! A healthy social structure involves males and females, and moving mothers from their sons or brothers and sisters is bad, so birth control is necessary) Also, the Dodo is a joke of a 'news site'. It is just an animal rights propaganda website with a boner for hating on SW at every possible chance and say whatever they can to try and shut it down. For example, they will always make an article if someone sues SW or SW is investigated for violating animal welfare act, but they will never follow up that the government finds no violations found, or that the court cases are dismissed in SWs favor.

I got my information from the animals bio's. If they included that the animals were on constant medication for some (Like Unna and Kalia, including the incident with Katina/Nalani/Taku/Ike) why would you assume they would just casually leave out the same information for the other animals? They had no need to, those documents were supposed to be private.
John Hargrove can say all he likes that 'some animals were on constant medication' because he is right... Unna, Kalia, Splash... All of which he worked at a facility with. But don't you think it is a bit ridiculous for people to then take that and assume ALL animals are on constant medication..? Or completely ignore the fact that sometimes, animals get sick and need medication? And then take 2 isolated incidents, with Valentin and Katina, and say ALL orcas are on anti-psychotic drugs at all times?

Orcas, like every animal, sleep. Heaven forbid any animal in any zoological facility sleep while someone is watching them, let alone if someone is filming! They must be active 100% of the time apparently. You have seen one video of Kalia and her baby resting. I have seen many more videos of them being active. Amaya always plays with Makani.

Orcas rest using various methods.. Logging at the surface, swimming in a slow, routine pattern, or sleeping on the floor and coming up in intervals for breath. This is how they sleep in the wild and in captivity. Do you actually know how to identify when they are sleeping? It can be pretty damn tricky particularly when the animals are still swimming around, 'seemingly' alert.
Orcas can spend up to 33% of their day sleeping. Yes, in the wild. They can sleep the entire time, but more commonly they break this up into sections, sleeping 20 minutes here, an hour there, throughout the day.
It makes sense the animals would break up their sleep in captivity during 'off' periods while the trainers are not interacting with them. Where is your evidence this is bad? Or do you believe they must, under every circumstance, sleep through the entire night and remain awake all day, like a human? Orcas are not humans, funnily enough. They do not sleep all night in the wild so why would you expect them to do so in captivity? Not to mention, throughout the first few weeks of life, baby orcas and their mothers get no sleep. The baby must move to regulate body temperature, then they gradually increase their resting patterns until they are getting the same hours of sleep adult animals are. I'm sure Kalia is a very tired Mummy right now.

" I also find it interesting that you say a large pod makes it harder to hunt when many wild orcas use large pods to stun and trap their prey."
Many wild orcas eat fish, so yes that tactic works well for them. When you are hunting other things, like dolphins and seals, no sorry that does not work. They need to be stealthy and hidden. That is not a made up fact. Most transient pods consist of 2-3 individuals. How can you have Mom, 5 siblings, grandma and grandchildren, uncles and nieces when your pod has 3 individuals?  All populations around the world do not function the same. They adapt and change their behavior to suit their needs.

" And there was evidence when Corky heard her pods voices no one but her reacted in the tank. "

That video of Corky is available for free online for anyone to watch. And all of the animals that heard it with Corky, ALL  reacted to the noise. The 'test' they were attempting was not scientific. (probably because scientists never performed it) If they were truly trying to judge if she recognized her family, they should have played random vocals with Corky's family amid the different vocals, and then documented if at that moment there was any distinct change in Corky's behavior. Then repeated to rule out random response. That is the scientific approach.
They played the vocals, and every one of the orcas responded to the tape, and that at one moment Corky made a movement that was like a 'yes' behavior where the animal nods their head up and down. That was her reaction, everyone says she 'shuddered' at the sound of her family but science wouldn't say that. She made a physical reaction is true, but because it was not done scientifically, all you can do is make assumptions. She didn't make the movement the moment she heard the calls.. They were playing them for a while before she did anything.

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Athelva In reply to The-Swedish-Disaster [2019-03-09 00:01:04 +0000 UTC]

This has got to be my favorite comment so far! You make so many excellent points its hard to believe that people are still arguing about this stuff.

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SkyebobPiepants In reply to The-Swedish-Disaster [2015-02-07 01:49:08 +0000 UTC]

Thanks for your comment.

I just want to say that the captive breeding program is very successful.   In the wild it is impossible to monitor births, miscarriages and deaths within the first 6 months, which is why none of those figures are ever included in lifespan studies and it is known that infant mortality in the wild is as high as 50% in the first year of life.

The captive breeding program has been running for less then 30 years, which is a breeding program in its infancy when you compare it to other captive animals (of equivalent long lifespans). The dolphin breeding program has been running for more then double the time. Even so, they have been having success with it and are in 3rd generation.
Seaworld have bred 30 non-calves, 8 have died (non-calves are animals that are older then 6months, in line with wild studies which remove these numbers as well. But just for reference, only 2 have died within 6 months at SW, and does not come even close to 50% mortality in first year.), which gives an ASR (Annual Survival Rate) of 0.979 which equals a life expectancy of 46 years. The Northern Resident orcas had an ASR of 0.976 during unrestrained growth, which equals a life expectancy of 41 years.
Kamogawa SeaWorld in Japan have bred 6 non-calves, only one has died.
Marineland in France have bred 6 non-calves, all of them still alive.

This is very successful regardless of how you look it.

The exception now, is Marineland in Canada, who have an appalling record where 100% of their calves have died. I do not think one facility doing a bad job reflects the other facilities and the ability to breed the animals successfully. That is all the breeding facilities in the world.

I can understand why you want the breeding program to end, so I'm not arguing with you about that, it is your opinion, but when you start bringing opinion across as fact (that the breeding program is doing terribly) then it needs to be corrected.

Also, yes  there are teeth issues in captivity of course. But don't think there aren't teeth issues in the wild either. Many orcas have worn teeth. In fact a wild orca stranded and died recently with extremely worn teeth:
www.iwdg.ie/index.php?option=c…
The necropsy isn't completed, but there is a chance her worn teeth played a role in her death due to infection.
"The teeth of the whale were completely flat which is characteristic of a type 1 killer whale ". Yes, characteristic of an entire population. (they're not the only population with worn teeth) Interestingly this is the same eco-type as majority of captive orcas (And Tilikum), so, chances are, they probably would have worn teeth in the wild. 
The toys in captivity wear their teeth and it's particularly telling when you look at which individuals have worn teeth and what toys they play with. Those that play with 'push' toys like balls still have good teeth. The ones that play with chew toys (mainly SWF) have terrible teeth. The ones in the wild, their fish diet is wearing their teeth.

I know that it is your opinion that the thousands of people on the 'empty the tanks' and 'free Tilikum' bandwagon know that releasing the animals will kill them, but unfortunately you are wrong. I know there are people who know this. This is not for them or you. This is for people who don't know, which would be a far greater number then the people who are aware. Many people simply watched Blackfish and that is the extent of their knowledge, so how could they possibly know? They don't, this is why I made this. Someone replied in the comments here that they were on the 'Free Tilikum' bandwagon and actually meant, 'free/release Tilikum' and had no idea Tilikum and the other animals couldn't be released. That's what it is for.

Anyway, I wont be replying again, but thanks for the civil conversation.

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SkyebobPiepants In reply to DAND-E [2015-01-29 11:29:22 +0000 UTC]

Why are you being so rude and aggressive? Why do you feel the need to insult me? There is no need for it.

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DAND-E In reply to SkyebobPiepants [2015-01-29 20:42:30 +0000 UTC]

Hidden by Owner

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SkyebobPiepants In reply to DAND-E [2015-01-29 22:23:17 +0000 UTC]

Hidden by Commenter

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DAND-E In reply to SkyebobPiepants [2015-01-30 05:29:35 +0000 UTC]

Hidden by Owner

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SkyebobPiepants In reply to DAND-E [2015-01-31 08:36:26 +0000 UTC]

Even when it has been very clearly explained to you, you still fail to understand. I'm not surprised though.
No, it does not "go over and over my head". I am well aware of the reason why Tilikum is non-releasable. In fact this very image is one of the reasons why Tilikum is unreleasable. Of course captivity is the reason he is unreleasable. Do you seriously think people think the animals currently in the WILD are unreleasable to go into the wild? Seriously? What a joke.

You think everyone who is on the 'free Tilikum into the wild' bandwagon actually means "OH WAIT NO WE DON'T MEAN ACTUALLY RELEASE HIM INTO THE WILD". That is what a lot of people think, even someone in this very thread thought this would be good, because they did not know why he can not be released because no one has told them. Are you going to argue with that person that what they thought was wrong because you think differently and everyone must think the way you do and know everything you do? Go ahead and tell them what an idiot they are.

Did you noticed that at the bottom of this image description it is written, "So, regardless of if you think Tilikum should stay where he is, or be retired in a seapen, we can all agree that 'freedom' would ultimately be a death sentence and is not an option."
You want him in a seapen? Congratulations. Well done. Do you want an award? Why are you arguing when you are down right agreeing to the entire point of this image? Tilikum needs human care every day for the remainder of his life. That is what this is about, and apparently you say you know this, but still argue.

You think everyone who is part of the movement is as 'intelligent' as you and knows all the facts. You are very wrong. I have seen countless comments about people wanting and petitioning him to be rehabilitated and released back into the ocean to 'be with his family'. I am reading it exactly as it was intended, for some reason you get some other interpretation of that sentence. This is to educate people on why this can not happen for those that do not know, as MANY MANY MANY people do not know. I am not denying people know he actually can't be released. I am not denying there are people who just want him to remain in captivity but moved to a sea pen.  I don't even think this is that bad? I think it's very dangerous but it can be managed if he is maintained daily with human interaction. But for you to say "EVERYONE THINKS THIS" is, well, dumb and ignorant.

But yeah, typical anti response anyway. Have a nice day.

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SkyebobPiepants In reply to BLUE-NEBULA-BELUGA [2015-01-29 11:27:28 +0000 UTC]

Explain it to me then.
Yes, captivity has caused these issues and as such, he can not be released into the ocean. Not only his teeth, but his entire environment is very sterile compared to the ocean, the water is kept at a perfect temperature that barely changes, the water is kept very clean, there is no pollution or bacteria or disease and as such his immune system could not cope with the ocean which is the opposite of all of these things. That doesn't mean the ocean is bad, you just need the immune system to deal with it which the captives do not have.
 Not entirely sure what I am missing here? It seems you completely agree with me that chances are he would not cope with being put into the wild, which was the entire point.
No need to swear or be aggressive.

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SkyebobPiepants In reply to LacrimosaUnknown [2015-01-29 11:21:46 +0000 UTC]

All animals in captivity have a weakened immune system then their wild counterparts. But dolphins and whales in particular, because their whole environment is 'perfect'. Perfect ideal temperature, zero pollution, little to no bacteria and zero parasites, no diseases and other such issues. In the wild this isn't an issue (apart from the pollution which is a very real and serious issue) and so the ocean isn't bad at all for those wild animals, they are protected from it all naturally from birth and their immune system grows as they do. Captives are not protected like this. Then on top of his teeth issue, yep, very very likely he would die.
You are right, they can't be released for several reasons, and I agree about the Russians.

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LacrimosaUnknown In reply to SkyebobPiepants [2015-01-29 16:51:03 +0000 UTC]

Except not everything is perfect. The orcas do get ill, quite a few have died from both natural diseases but also from unnatural diseases because captives log a lot more at the surface and are more out of the water than wild orca.

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SkyebobPiepants In reply to LacrimosaUnknown [2015-01-29 22:59:23 +0000 UTC]

All animals get sick regardless of where they live. You're right I was wrong to say they were free of disease, I worded poorly. I meant the captive animals don't deal with the deadly and highly infectious morbillivirus. (Though the captive dolphins in seapens off Florida are now in a very dangerous position where they can contract the illness) and some other diseases found in the ocean. Parasites like worms are easily treated so they don't deal with them either. You're right, no where is perfect, sickness can't be eliminated, but they can be treated in captivity is what I meant and worded poorly.  Something as simple and easily treated such as worms kills in the wild.

Anyway. A bit off track now. This is about Tilikum not being an appropriate candidate for release, not about the benefits and disadvantages of captivity.

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LacrimosaUnknown In reply to SkyebobPiepants [2015-01-30 05:59:19 +0000 UTC]

true. Tilikum is not, not ever, a good candidate for release, and I wonder if, at all, he's a good candidate for a seapen. I've seen people claiming that he isn't because of his teeth and health.

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SkyebobPiepants In reply to marshmallowcreampie [2014-11-21 00:47:05 +0000 UTC]

I wouldn't say 'most'. Most don't actually know what they're talking about, only a few think it would not be good to release him. There are numerous petitions with thousands of signatures calling for release into the wild.

But it's good there are a few people who know how dangerous a release would be for him.

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orcamistress101 In reply to Terra-Bites [2015-07-21 19:28:11 +0000 UTC]

Finally a reasonable anti that acknowledges the complexity of the issue! I commend you for really taking the time to analyze this issue objectively enough to see those complexities. I disagree with some of your statements and hope I can get you to think about these complexities from another perspective. 

Having and rearing offspring is the most natural thing any species on this planet can possibly do. There is nothing natural about living in captivity. Obviously. These animals are being cared for by people in an environment far smaller than the ocean. There's a such thing as enough space (I don't know how closely you've been following SeaWorld news, but look up the Blue World Project). The only reason why any species travel great distances are to find food and mate/give birth. In other words, they don't migrate because they want to. To prevent breeding, that's taking away the one thing that is some what natural from these animals. AI in and of itself is most certainly unnatural, but the females that have been AI'd have proven to be good mothers and don't appear to treat their offspring any differently than their calves resulting from natural matings. The rearing of those calves either conceived through natural or unnatural means is a very natural and important thing to the animals.

Is it true that the enclosures themselves should very much improve? Absolutely! Dolphinariums have been doing natural-looking and more interesting enclosures for dolphins for many years now. SeaWorld is leading the way in doing that for their orcas. I'm not sure how closely you've been following SeaWorld news and updates so I'll post this here for perusal at your leisure: blueworldproject.seaworld.com/ If you google Blue World Project, you'll find a multitude of articles on this massive new undertaking from both sides of the coin. What you'll see is some people actively fighting the Blue World Project! Those same people that don't want anything but seapens or freedom for these animals are against SeaWorld giving them the best enclosures any orcas have in any other parks around the world. In my personal opinion that is beyond stupid and shows they hate SeaWorld more than they love orcas. (there's kind of a collective hatred of big corporations anyhow, but if you make money off of animals, you're hated all the more, but that's another debate for another day)

Capture and importation (the specific importation amendment of the bill came later) of wild orcas have been banned in the US, under a larger bill banning the overall harassment of any wild animal off our coasts. Fishermen can't shoot orcas on sight anymore, and the US military can't use them for target practice (eradicating entire pods, likely killing more animals than that were captured). Both of those issues were going on for years (decades, even) before anybody captured them. I think both of those were far more serious issues than capture myself, but that's just me. Laws are needed for a reason and I think all of those are pretty good reasons, myself.

The laws have had a massively positive effect on the US's captive industry and effectively forced these facilities keeping them in the US to learn how to take excellent care of these animals after their supply of wild animals were cut off. (It was, by the way, multiple aquariums both in the US and Canada -and many others abroad- taking orcas from the Pacific Northwest and later Iceland.) Japan, for instance, is still many years behind the US in terms of their cetacean keeping and Japanese parks have consulted SeaWorld for their animals' medical needs. The orca enclosures in the two parks that have them aren't altogether horrible, but the multitude of dolphin only aquariums in Japan leave much to be desired and the animals at those other parks are in dire need of an expansion. All that because a wild dolphin supply is so readily available. I hear there is a ban of wild captured dolphins (specifically those from Taiji) so maybe that will finally force Japanese aquariums to do what needs to be done to ensure the survival of the animals already in their collections. What exactly would SeaWorld look like now without those laws? Who knows. They could be pretty good, but they could also be pretty bad. As I said, laws are a good thing and are needed. 

The "free the orcas!" stance I see frequently shared on Facebook are mainly people who saw Blackfish and don't really know enough about these animals to acknowledge the complexities of the issue beyond what was said in Blackfish. The knee jerk reaction after seeing such an emotionally driven movie as Blackfish is "Free the orcas! Get them out of big, evil SeaWorld!" It's that stance that I try to debate whenever I see it, even if it is just to get them to acknowledge said complexities without completely changing their minds.

I'll close with this: As for rescue facilities, New Zealand has no cetacean rescue/rehab facilities. Not even Australia has any places big enough for rehabing orcas. There are resident pods off of New Zealand and one such "researcher" (now animal rights activist) and her team that studies this population. She has said it herself she is against the construction of animal rehab facilities in New Zealand. She'll try to make you think it's because of some misguided "let nature take its course" mindset on her part, but really it's because she outright despises captivity and is pretty much terrified of any animals being deemed unreleasable (and thus living out the remainder of their lives in captivity) by whatever government body in NZ that would make that call. There have been multiple occasions where she has found lost, obviously malnourished, very young orca calves (at least one was not even big enough to be completely weaned) and wont do a thing to truly save them beyond just tossing in a few fish. That's a perfect example of why we need these facilities, in addition to a perfect example of what it looks like to let the anti captivity agenda dictate the laws in their countries/states. Just search youtube for lost baby orca New Zealand and you'll see what I'm talking about. It's maddening to me.

The situation absolutely is not black and white, but there are worse things than captivity.

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