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superkev In reply to vert [2004-12-13 15:08:47 +0000 UTC]

awesome reference

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arachnid15 In reply to greydawg [2004-12-14 12:07:12 +0000 UTC]

Have you actually looked at his gallery? Because, it sure sounds like you have not.

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greydawg In reply to arachnid15 [2004-12-14 15:38:27 +0000 UTC]

Does it sound like I haven't seen his gallery? I certainly have. In fact, superkev is probably the first person I put on my watch list, if that helps. I've been watching his for a long time and have, in fact, seen his gallery. My favorite stuff in particular usually involves colored light. I'm not entirely sure why you think I haven't seen his gallery, but I'll let it slide.

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arachnid15 In reply to greydawg [2004-12-14 21:39:10 +0000 UTC]

I do appreciate you letting it “slide”. I can safely sleep now. I am not sure where I could have possibly got that idea. Perhaps the fact that were making broad generalizations about the work.

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greydawg In reply to arachnid15 [2004-12-14 22:17:44 +0000 UTC]

It's ok. No big deal. Kev is a pro--he can handle criticism as long as it's honest. I get sick of people always telling me how good I am or how much they like a certain painting---you can't grow that way. Kev has the same thing---anytime he posts a deviation, it's loaded with praising comments within minutes. It seems like 99.9% of the comments on DA are "wow" and "cool", but are seldom elaborated on, and it's even more rare to find comments that are critical (WITHOUT just bashing someone's art). You know what it's all about-- :mytwocents:

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superkev In reply to greydawg [2004-12-13 14:57:52 +0000 UTC]

you seem to be very angry about my photos. i'm glad that the style of my work has had such a strong influence on your feelings. that's all i can ask for. i'll take your suggestions to heart, but i doubt that i'll do anything about them. to me, art is about doing what i want to do, not trying to conform to some angry boy's opinion.

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greydawg In reply to superkev [2004-12-13 16:22:03 +0000 UTC]

No, there's a difference between being angry and being critical. I thought you would appreciate the difference based on your journals/notes, etc. I'm not angry--if anything I'm confused. You talk about constantly looking for a more difficult project, but if you ask me they all look the same. Some might call that style, I call it kinda boring.
The bottom line is this---everyone on DA seems to think you're the best photographer on the whole site as far as I can tell. Perhaps I'm missing the subtle phorography things, but I'm NOT a photographer. My opinions are based on exactly what I see from your photos rather than insight into lighting/focus/etc. And if you ask me, I don't think you're doing much to challenge yourself. I'll give you credit for producing art and continuing to take pictures--that's the most important thing about being any type of artist. But I'd like to see you REALLY try something new, can you dig it?

I think your photos often showcase your technical ability very well (at least to other photographers), but they don't do much to make interesting art, IMO.

I went to a gallery the other weekend and saw a picture of a leaf...intentionally out of focus. To me, it was just a picture of the color green---I didn't even know it was a leaf until I read the title. That's dull! And as for this gothic cheerleader, I know you haven't been to school, but the composition and cropping seems intentionally random---like art for art's sake, but that's not necesarily good. Maybe you are afraid that a more simple, straight forward picture would be too predictable, but it might also be more interesting. Please at least consider all these things---you never know how it might help.

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superkev In reply to greydawg [2004-12-13 16:40:21 +0000 UTC]

ok point taken. thanks for clarifying. i appreciate critique, but your initial comment was more of an attack without much reasoning to back it up. i read it through a few times to see if i could make sense of it and i couldn't, which led me to think it was angry.

i know that my work might not be to your taste, but what i've also talked about in the past is that artists should do what makes them happy. the same goes for challenges. artists should have personal challenges that come from inside, not outside. external dictation of artistic style is exactly the opposite of what art is, in my opinion. to me, each of my pieces, especially the ones i post here, come with individual and distinct personal challenges. it matters very little to me if someone else doesn't get it. and i don't expect them to. how could they? they're not me.

as for explaining the hell out of stuff, i give tech information NOT because i think it gives insight into the meaning or artistic merit of a photo, but because people invariably ask me. it saves me from writing the same thing over and over again. also, i think technique is the skeleton of any artform, and a means to supporting a complete piece. the flesh is what the artist adds from him or herself. and like any other kind of flesh, it's a matter of taste.

thanks for taking the time to engage in this dialogue. cheers.

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greydawg In reply to superkev [2004-12-13 19:36:42 +0000 UTC]

I thought you might say something like that Artists are the hardest people to convince of change.

I'm not trying to slam you, don't get me wrong. I'm simply saying first that I have been very impressed with a few of your photos, but most of them, to me, are predicatable, and rather than following a stylized trend, they lean more towards doing the same thing over and over but often not with better results. This photo in particular seems to have lost so much potential. There's nothing special about it, and it seems like something I've seen before, perhaps even in your own portfolio. I think you could take pictures like this all day everyday and DA will love them all. Perhaps you are thinking too hard? I mean, if you went outside and took a hundred pictures and put as LITTLE thought into them as possible, perhaps something interesting might happen. Perhaps the pictures wouldn't feel so scripted, so perfectly set-up, which is the sentiment I get from most of your pictures. Suzi9mm is an example of a photographer on DA who can set up compositions that don't LOOK like they were set up, if that helps. But sometimes she takes lousy pictures too---we all do, it seems.
My own personal view about challenging yourself as an artist is to try NEW things. To try things just for the sake of trying them if not to realize it's not your style. It's like everyone knows you have skill, but it seems like it goes to waste.
Let's put it this way. Have you ever heard a band you really thought was going to be huge, but then they dissappeared? I can think of dozens, but usually they do the same thing on their second record and it simply doesn't have the same effect---it's like eating a dozen apples; the first one is juicy and delicious, but by the time you reach #12 you can't even taste the fruit anymore.
I know I'm kinda being a creep here, but I'm really just trying to help. And I know artists are the last people who want to hear they should change anything about what they do, but I would really like to see you try something DRAMATICALLY different from what I've seen. Toss it all out the window, and give it a shot. Make a point to try spending less than 5 minutes setting something up, and see what happens.
Some suggestions: I'm not sure if I have ever seen you take a photo of an entire person. Why not give it a shot? What about a photo with a convincing smile? Usually smiles in photos feel scripted, so that should be challenging. Or what about something that isn't sitting perfectly still? I think you could make that work--you have the equipment, what do you have to lose?
Thank you for the response.

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scarletarts In reply to greydawg [2004-12-21 03:37:50 +0000 UTC]

Artists are the hardest people to convince of change.

You don't truly believe that, do you? Artists have been changing the world throughout history, and they've done so by challenging pre-conceived beliefs and re-inventing the wheel. It doesn't seem possible to me that an artist can continue to create without constantly reassessing his approach and style. When we invest so much personally in our art we're exposing our insecurities to scrutiny. How can creativity survive if we're not changing?



You're entitled to your opinion about Kev's style, although I personally consider it to be a fairly shallow appraisal of his work. Plenty of people will disagree with you, but I'm grateful for the fact that it can be discussed here on an open forum. If you feel this way, you're lucky to have the opportunity to debate your stance.

I do think, however, that you've chosen an arrogant approach - and like Kev, I believed that you were angry about his work in your first post. It's obvious to me that Kev puts a great deal of himself into his shots (like any true artist) and your choice of approach was bound to be taken personally.

You made many strong points, but they were clouded by overtones of sour grapes. Fact is, if people fav and comment on Kev's work in droves, it's because they want to - and is that really so bad? The artist isn't responsible for the depth of interpretation of its audience, and it doesn't matter whether somebody identifies with a piece of work because of its technical brilliance, metaphors or even the costume or cup size of the model. It just means that we're all looking for different things.

I think the real message you were trying to send out was that Kev wasn't making the most of his potential as an artist. You're completely correct, but name one artist who is? We're all growing at our own pace and choosing our own creative path, and maybe you're not noticing the way that Kev is developing because you're so blinded by your own vision for him. As he said earlier - it's not art if he's caving in to external pressures.

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greydawg In reply to scarletarts [2004-12-21 17:41:27 +0000 UTC]

See? This is exactly what I was getting at, so I'm glad you ranted off so much. I don't have a "vision" for SuperKev. All I know is what I've seen, and when it's gets this repetitive, well, I might like to think even Kev himself would want to hear so.
Do you know what I think? I think you think too much. I think you are just like kev and you think all artists should ONLY listen to their inside voice and to never ever doubt or question it, and not only that but to never ever ever EVER listen to anybody else...unless, of course, it's praise. I'm not sure what makes you think no artist can make the most out of his potential, but I disagree. And one more thing...if you think people put fav's and stuff on DA because they "want" to, then you're at least partly right, but let's face it, most people are here for the popularity contest (no, that's not Kev's fault, so don't try to put words in my mouth again). Me? I couldn't care less about DA popularity---I'm here for the art.

As for you... I think you shouldn't try so hard to be perfectly politically correct either---if you REALLY believe that DA is an open forum, then why are you complaining to me? Art is always about criticism! DA is just the kind of place where most people get nothing but praise and never get any criticism (FOR THE MOST PART). If you really respect that, what are you complaining about? I think you have some sort of hidden agenda, but I'm going to leave you alone to think about whether or not you could handle a little criticism, or if you just brush it off and say..."everyone is entitled to his own opinion" or something politically-correct along those lines...

Thanks for the rant... Try not to sound so important next time.

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scarletarts In reply to greydawg [2004-12-21 18:58:41 +0000 UTC]

Thanks for the rant... Try not to sound so important next time.

I can't help but note the irony.

-----

OK, you said a lot of things. I'm going to respond to each of them separately for clarity's sake, because you seem to have jumped to conclusions.

1. Do you know what I think? I think you think too much. I think you are just like kev and you think all artists should ONLY listen to their inside voice and to never ever doubt or question it, and not only that but to never ever ever EVER listen to anybody else...unless, of course, it's praise.

If you read my reply again, you'll notice the part where I said that internal reassessment is one of the crucial elements of artistic thought. New ideas are ALL about doubt and self-questioning - anything else is mechanical. Those who aren’t continually questioning themselves aren’t growing. So no, your assumption was incorrect.

A clever artist can balance their internal voice with external stimuli and draw on both sets of resources. I agree that those who ignore one or the other will suffer for it, but I don’t agree that you’ve described me accurately.

If criticism comes my way, I try to learn from it. I can differentiate constructive criticism from gushing praise, and as long as it provides me with an opportunity to learn I embrace it. I’m a relatively new photographer (my main artistic focus is my music) so I get my fair share of pointers here on DA. I find that most people are able to convey their message without resorting to personal attacks.

I've noticed Kev's gracious replies to criticism on his works as well, so I don't know how you can accuse him of being somebody who doesn't listen to what others have to say. I won’t speak for him any further, however, as he’s perfectly capable of doing that himself.

2. I'm not sure what makes you think no artist can make the most out of his potential, but I disagree.

You can blame my old psychology lecturer for that statement. I believe that we know so little about the brain and creative intelligence that none of us is truly meeting our potential – in pretty much any field. Secondly, I believe that artistic development has plateaus where we simply enjoy the view from where we’re standing – and that’s perfectly healthy. I think our life expectancy is probably shorter than our creative potential, because I don’t believe in a perfect work of art.

3. And one more thing...if you think people put fav's and stuff on DA because they "want" to, then you're at least partly right, but let's face it, most people are here for the popularity contest.

Popularity whores are everywhere – in all areas of life. In my experience they do not make up the ‘majority’ of members or commenters on DA – in Kev’s gallery or otherwise. The comments on this very page are a good example.

4. As for you... I think you shouldn't try so hard to be perfectly politically correct either---if you REALLY believe that DA is an open forum, then why are you complaining to me?

I am responding (not complaining) to you because of the fact that this is an open forum. Are you suggesting that it's OK for you to waltz in and critique a person's work without the inconvenience of being challenged? I believe fully in the value of criticism on DA as long as it's constructive - including, I guess, criticism (or clarification, or discussion about) critiques. I believe that you said plenty of constructive things in your comments, but made the observation that I thought your approach was counterproductive. You only need to look at Kev's initial reply to see that I wasn’t the only one surprised by the way you chose to express yourself.

5. I think you have some sort of hidden agenda, but I'm going to leave you alone to think about whether or not you could handle a little criticism, or if you just brush it off and say..."everyone is entitled to his own opinion" or something politically-correct along those lines...

I have no agenda. I can handle criticism. You don’t know me, so there’s really nothing more I can say to change your mind about those things. I’m more concerned with responding to the parts of your comment that have basis, because I consider the rest to be cheap shots from a person who hasn’t met me.

Don’t accuse me of trying to sound important just because I can spell and string a sentence together – I’m just discussing how I felt about your critique. I acknowledged points in your comments that I agreed with, so why shouldn’t I challenge the bits that I don’t?

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greydawg In reply to scarletarts [2004-12-21 19:46:25 +0000 UTC]

See?
"I'm ok, right? I didn't do anything wrong, and I was just being smarter than you"
You could have just said that and saved yourself the trouble of remembering all those elaborate words and unpredictable dictation. Oops, now I'm doing it!
I was definitely right about one thing though---you think too hard...and talk too much. I'm not here to bash, but I get the feeling like that's what you are afraid of. Art is about emotion, not about being politically correct and making sure everyone understands everything your magnificent brain can maufacture. Oh crap, you're growing on me.
Instead of spending another half-hour responding to this sort of thing, why not spend it taking pictures? I'm sure by now you've got SOME kind of emotion in you to inspire you. If we all spent as much time making art as we did posting "good job" comments on DA, the world would be a lot more pretty to look at, to say the least...

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scarletarts In reply to greydawg [2004-12-22 01:35:16 +0000 UTC]

I've wasted enough energy on a person who'd rather take cheap shots than respond to the actual content of my posts. How you reached the conclusion that I lack emotion - after a discussion like this - is beyond me.

I apologise if you found me hard to understand - nobody's had a problem doing so before. I'll try to use smaller words if I come across you again.

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greydawg In reply to scarletarts [2004-12-22 13:22:04 +0000 UTC]

How sweet! Thank you. If you think I'm pulling cheap shots, sorry, no, but then maybe you are a little bugged out by criticism? You don't have to like it, but you do have to expect it from time to time.

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iamshe In reply to greydawg [2005-01-28 18:07:53 +0000 UTC]

I'm probably going to regret this, but here goes anyway:

The world is a mirror; you are only seeing what you are. And, judging by the fact that it's taken three of us to keep up the dialogue on this end of the so-called conversation, I'd say ~ scarletarts is not the one wasting time, or thinking too much.

So can you take it, or only dish it out? We've all raised valid points, and you've not yet taken a single one to heart, at least as far as has been revealed by your comments to this point.

You are free to respond, and know that I'll read whatever you choose to write, but I'm telling you now that, judging by the rest of this thread, it's incredibly unlikely that I'll bother responding again, unless you surprise me with a thoughtful, insightful commentary.

I wish you as much joy, evolution, wonder, and love of life that you are capable of receiving. Get my drift?

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greydawg In reply to iamshe [2005-01-31 04:18:03 +0000 UTC]

What? That was, like, a while ago. In any case, pay more attention to comments I've left since then. I've learned devaints don't usually want criticism in most cases, and if they do, I'm not going to give it unless they ask. I still think there is WAY too much "photography" on DA, but kev is one of the few who at least has a sense of style, and I have to respect that (even if I don't always like it). It seems like everyone and their cat has a digi cam, and that every picture is print-quality, but it's simply not all good, or even all art. I don't mind about photography, but I just don't like the idea of browsing on DA when I'm looking at all these crummy pics of cats and people's friends just so they can post stuff online, and it bothers me because I don't know what I'm missing, know what I mean? I keep finding these "gems" hidden among all this stuff I don't like. I'm all for art and all, but there's a lot of photography on DA that is even admittedly not art. Why am I ranting again? Sigh!

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moonbeam13 In reply to scarletarts [2004-12-22 05:34:21 +0000 UTC]

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pinkcookie In reply to ??? [2004-12-13 09:02:10 +0000 UTC]

mmmmm i perfere this one
seems to have alot more emotion and, meaing?
the crop is great.
and the lighting, well your the light man, what else is there to say
but there is something about the light thingi on the left hand side i dont like. sort of distracking. but i supose if it wasnt there, the piece would be abit unbalanced
anyhow
awsome shot
and, ermm
great work

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superkev In reply to pinkcookie [2004-12-13 15:05:22 +0000 UTC]

thanks. i think the thing on the left you're talking about is the fishnet stockings in the background, out of focus. i think i made them a bit brighter than they originally were. i'll check how it was before i "fixed" it

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superkev In reply to Argocat8 [2004-12-13 15:08:10 +0000 UTC]

thank you. you picked up on the things i found most important in this image: her pretty eyes and the fishnet stockings.

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sfmoe In reply to ??? [2004-12-13 07:41:24 +0000 UTC]

ooo i like the DOF on this one ... looks great

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superkev In reply to hesitation [2004-12-13 05:25:31 +0000 UTC]

yay thank you!

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ganooov In reply to ??? [2004-12-13 03:26:38 +0000 UTC]

Intresting crop work. I found it as pretty work .

she's nice..

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superkev In reply to ganooov [2004-12-13 03:44:21 +0000 UTC]

you're right. she is nice. thanks!

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ganooov In reply to superkev [2004-12-13 03:45:03 +0000 UTC]

she remind me someone, thank you too .

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Moloko-Vellocet In reply to ??? [2004-12-13 03:13:22 +0000 UTC]

She looks concerned and afraid.

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superkev In reply to Moloko-Vellocet [2004-12-13 15:09:55 +0000 UTC]

heh maybe she is? i was behind the camera, after all.

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moonbeam13 In reply to superkev [2004-12-15 02:53:45 +0000 UTC]

bah, more that's what comforted me.

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superkev In reply to KittyTrishia [2004-12-13 03:19:04 +0000 UTC]

thank you

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superkev In reply to ArsenicAddiction [2004-12-13 15:10:25 +0000 UTC]

:woohoo: thanks

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ArsenicAddiction In reply to superkev [2004-12-13 17:07:57 +0000 UTC]

anytime

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chibizumi In reply to ??? [2004-12-13 03:02:17 +0000 UTC]

Perfect Catch!!!....i like it a lot!!!!! !!!!!

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