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UnicornReality — We wont go back
Published: 2006-12-09 20:43:31 +0000 UTC; Views: 4606; Favourites: 119; Downloads: 45
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Hello.
These are my views and my views alone. Yours may be different and I understand that.
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Comments: 331
just like any argument, you can't really convenice people about your opinion, especially if its going to take away something that people hold dear to them, the right to their own lives. Thats the way I see it. You wouldn't just be taking away a womans right, it feels like you're just taking away her life in general. I have no idea what it is like to have lived in this country 100 years ago when women didn't have the same amount of rights as she does now, nor do I live in a country were women are barely considered human. So I treasure where I live and what I have and by damn will still fight to keep it that way. And, because I value peoples opinion to pro-life, I wont fight to make abortions mandatory
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This whole argument makes me laugh. Anyway hon, well said.
When men say I have the ultimate right to choose to cut their testicles off, then I'll consider their arguments. Until then it goes like this: You have the right to say what to do with your body, be you male, be you female. It doesn't matter.
No longwinded replies for me please, I'm not interested in your dogma. This is Fi's deviation, my comment is for her.
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"We wont."
You don't have to.
"Want to tell me how evil and wicked I am?"
No, not really. I'd prefer leaving dropping by and sharing my opinion, even as it differs with your own. Maybe I'll be able to shed insight... or maybe you're not interested.
"Bring. It. Fucking. On."
Um. Right.
Whether you use a hanger or high tech medical device, the end result is still the same. Killing children for convenience sake is selfish (to say the least). I hope you aren't for that. Most people I talk to about this subject on either side of the fence tend agree.
The long and short of it is, the true problem ISN'T abortion. The true problem is how that unwanted baby got in there in the first place. Solve those social issues first, and the rest becomes a moot point.
Reading through your comments, I'm a bit saddened people don't even understand the 'hanger'. While I don't agree at all with your stance and thinking, it's still a pretty slick design.
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The truth is, as a man you have absolutely no say in the moralities of abortion. You will never be in that situation. Ever.
I don't fully agree with Fiona, as I do believe an embryo is a human being HOWEVER women have the right to choose. Pregnancy is the most laborious, stressful thing the human body goes through, and even with today's medical advances there is a relatively high death rate, either directly or indirectly related to pregnancy or labour. People paint pregnancy as some kind of glowing period of rosy well being but it just isn't for most people. There's sickness, there's hormonal fluctuations that make normally balanced women turn into screaming harpies or jellified, blubbering wrecks, there's huge changes to your body, there's pain, there's risks of diabetes, pre eclampsia, there's swellings and bladder weakness... It's not just an unpleasant nine months, you run the risk of developing illnesses that stay with you for life.
Not all accidental pregnancies are caused by socialogical problems. Contraception can and DOES fail. Are you going to tell a scared 17 year old girl that she has to endure 9 months of pregnancy, the pain of parting with an unwanted, but still emotionally bonded, child, the stigma of being a teen mother, the educational and emotional upheavel? I'm not.
Abortion is abused by a vast number of women, used as emergency contraception, seen as just another alternative to the morning after pill, but take it away and more women will die. There will ALWAYS be abortion, and you know what Fi's stamp says? It says we will not let scared women die in dirty backstreet abortionists when there is the equipment and skills available to perform the procedures in clean, controlled environments.
But as I said, you will never have to face that decision - no man will. For men it is an entirely hypothetical argument. Men have absolutely no right to a child while it is within a woman's body, and they never will have. When science moves forwards enough to transfer embryos and foetuses to artificial wombs then I think there will be more scope for men to take on the responsibility, but to be honest I'm not sure how many years in the future that is.
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That's an illogical argument if I ever saw one. If your "you can't experience it so you cannot criticize it" argument was valid, then only soldiers could criticize the Iraq war. Clearly, this is not the case, so your argument falls apart. A better argument is, "if you have a logical point", you ought to share it, regardless of experience.
Do you criticize the draft? As a MALE citizen of the U.S., my name is part of the selective services... Maybe you cannot criticize the draft because YOU aren't even POTENTIALLY subjected to it! But, in reality, you CAN criticize the draft, even though you are not EVER going to be in a position where you could ever be affected by it. This means that I can and will criticize abortion, as a man, as a citizen, and as a human being.
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I have no idea how that analogy came about but it's in no way relevant. But hey, seeing as it seems to be a concept you can grasp, I'll roll with it
Going to war is optional. Compulsory draft? I'd rather rot in jail than fight in a war. No one can make that decision for me, and I would not allow any organisation to use my body and my mind to do anything that I didn't want to do.
Same goes for abortion really. If I wanted one, no power on earth could stop me. If I didn't, no power on earth could make me. Men can't make that decision as they can't get pregnant. Simple as really.
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So are you saying that women could make that decision for you? What if Mother Theresa made that decision?
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No, I'm saying that no one could make that decision. And I'm saying men have no input because they will never have that to make that decision as they are without a uterus. Is that clear enough?
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NO. That's like saying that women have NO SAY over going to war because THEY'RE NOT ALLOWED TO SERVE ON THE FRONT LINES (legally, women cannot serve in front line combat; all female military personnel have jobs behind the lines.) Use some logic. Stop trying to twist the reality of the situation for your own ends. Also, keep in mind that you had a father.
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What woman has ever called to war? Margaret Thatcher, the only female leader of a major international power, not withstanding as I think she had the falklands and the first gulf war during her stay in power but I'm not 100% sure what happened. Women don't have any say in military issues really 
As for my father, he wanted my mother to abort my sister. She told him to fuck off. He's not been seen since. If it had been the other way round my mum would have stood by her point of view - her body, her decision. I'm not twisting anything. Baby grows inside woman. Until it is born it is effectively a parasite, emotional bond not withstanding. If the mother doesn't want it there she should be allowed to remove it. Full stop.
There have been a few stories in the paper about men being outraged that frozen embryos have been implanted by a spouse without their permission - but once it's implanted they can't do anything. Beforehand yeah, you can say where your sperm goes and what it does. That's why condoms were invented. Otherwise, once it's in someone else's body, you're fucked.
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Bloody Mary tried to stamp out Anglicanism, Catherine the great fought at least one war, Queen Elizabeth sponsored a pirate (Sir Francis Drake) to steal Spanish treasures, Cleopatra fought with Mark Antony against Octavian (and LOST), and Victoria's reign saw the British fight wars of imperialism, including the Boer War in South Africa. When in power, women create war just like men!
I see; they say that girls who have a bad relationship with their fathers grow up to be screwed-up women. You're very existence and life as you describe it proves my point. This explains your hatred against men. Filthy reverse sexism... And technically, the WOMAN is fucked (literally) if she has had sex.
And watch what you call a "parasite", that's the FUTURE of the human race you're talking about! You were one of those things once! Would you remove a 8-months developed child before birth? It's viable then, and most states will NOT allow it, even under Roe v. Wade!
At least you aren't likely to spread your ideas to your children... imagine that... "Mommy, why did you call me a parasite?" If anything, it is YOU who are a parasite, trying to bleed our society of the newborns that it needs by means of propaganda!
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Excuse me, you're making enormous generalisations there. I'm not screwed up, I'm not sexist. At all. In fact a lot of my feminist friends despair of me. I don't give a shit about social issues. Not one. I care about biological issues. Men are stronger than women, they are less emotionally driven and more logical - hence they traditionally are the breadwinners because they are built for laborious jobs or the business world. There are exceptions, and the physical roles are changing slowly, but it's still there. Women are more caring, able to multi task, driven by intuition which is why a lot of jobs traditionally had by women are things like nurses, teachers and other creative roles. Again, things are changing, but that's how it is.
But that's jobs - anyone can train themselves to do anything. Men can't grow a womb. Case closed.
It's not sexism, it's basic biology.
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The physical roles are NOT really changing; in fact, if anything, they're reverting to an earlier state (because traditionalists are out multiplying liberals, but that's another story...) And yes, you are correct to state that women are driven by emotions...
Women can't grow testicles, you know.
Also, have you ever asked yourself what would happen to the world if NO ONE cared a about social issues? I'll leave you with a JFK quote: "Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country."
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That decision that can be made for me is the draft, by the way.
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Actually, that decision CAN be legally made for one, or at least, it CAN be legally made for ME, as a man. Your argument falls apart on this point. And yes, if Roe v. Wade is repealed, quite a few powers might be able to stop you...
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Sometimes we have to do things that we don't want to do. It's called duty; willpower has nothing to do with it.
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Duty to who?
The duty to yourself is more important than anything. Fuck social duty, that's what's persecuted men and women alike for hundreds of years.
As a man, it is your responsibility to watch what you fertilise - it's not you who deals with the repurcussions.
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"The duty to yourself is more important than anything. Fuck social duty." Wow, you're selfish! That sort of attitude kills civilizations! We call it sloth!
And yes, I will ONLY fertilize my wife when the time is right (I need to get a wife first.) It's called monogamy.
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It should be a great privalige to bring life into the world. And rather than killing it off, send it to an adoption agency, not hell.
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And I bet you're making all kinds of judgements about me now because I have a liberal attitude, and I can bet that 100% of them will be totally wrong 
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I don't mind being judged; in fact, I don't care for the judgments of those not fit to judge... I just ignore them or put them into a place of minor importance. The only judgments I make are those based on solid reasoning and good morality.
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LMAO! She got someone to fight her battles FOR her! THAT'S funny.
"Abortion is abused by a vast number of women" RIGHT! Can both sides at least get together and do something about THAT?
"The truth is, as a man you have absolutely no say in the moralities of abortion. You will never be in that situation. Ever"
That makes me angry, actual. Abortion is NOT just a woman's issue. Let's say: I impregnate a woman who I thought mutually wanted with a child. She then decides it's her choice to have an abortion... you're telling me the man has NO rights to that child? IF you agree with that (and I doubt it, you seem level headed) then men should never have any legal or financial obligations to any child, ever.
If my wife is having a baby: I care about that child. Plain and simple. So, your statement simply holds no weight.
"Pregnancy is the most laborious, stressful thing the human body goes through" Naturally? Perhaps. However, I've had my spine fused. I have a herrington rod implant. I know a bit about pain, thank you.
"Not all accidental pregnancies are caused by socialogical problems. Contraception can and DOES fail"
You're acting like having sex is some sort of necessity. Sexual activity is a CHOICE. (There's that word, again.) And a man AND a woman can choose to do that or choose not to do that. It IS a societal (in general) problem. Society (in general) currently believes it should have have sex at anytime, while fully knowing that causes pregnancy... so the answer? Throw away the unborn and pretend it's not killing. The answer isn't to make abortion ilegal (for cases like incest and rape) but the current issue of abortion is societal, or at least that's the area of greatest concern, and where the answer is the most obvious. (I say this as a father of two, who has full custody of them and their mother pays no child support.)
Killing unborn babies can't be the best answer we can come up with.
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No no. I didn't. You just seem to enrage people with your ignorance..
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Oh, okay. I'm ignorant now, because I don't agree with you. 
I could call you ignorant, too. I mean, you've never actually responded to anything I've written. You just make generalizations, and now. The cycle could continue and no one would get anywhere. This is why the abortion debate continues, because people like you have closed their mind to any possibilities of change. Sad. But then... I thought you didn't have time for this? Obviously your word doesn't mean much.
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I can't be arsed with people like you who are quite happy to accept other people's opinions AS LONG AS they are the same as yours.
You're a waste of space and I'm not going to drag this whole farce out with someone like you. For a grown man you're very immature and possibily need to get offline for a while.
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Whatever.
Can't discuss things with you.
You make no sense.
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Feeling mutual.
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I thought you didn't have time for this?
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More power to ya mate.
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LOL.
Ok. Unless you have anything relevant to add, I've pretty much said my peace.
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Thank god for that.
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(and you say I'm immature!
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Sorry, I've heard men get all pious before - it holds no weight. I do know it must be frustrating to have no say in whether a child you father lives or dies but.... tough cheese really. Men have every right to the child after it leaves the woman's body. Before that, it is attached to the woman. It relies on the woman to live. If you throw a strop and demand full rights to that child - fine, take it, the woman doesn't want to carry it to full term you go ahead and take it! Oh wait, you can't. Again, tough cheese. In future years I am certain this will not be an issue, but as I said, at this present moment, there is no debate. That is how it is scientifically and no emotional or moral argument will change that. No matter how much you care about that child you cannot carry an unborn foetus to full term without a woman. And if that woman does not want to carry that child, no power on this earth should force her to. I really do understand how difficult it must be for men who do not want their unborn children aborted but the only way to solve that is to force women to carry to full term, and I am NOT prepared to do that because they won't - they'll go down seedy alleys and have their problems solved elsewhere.
I absolutely hate the view point that if you don't want a baby, don't have sex. Ridiculous. Sex is a natural, and to some extent necessary, way to show affection for another human being. It's not just ill educated teenagers and promiscuous party girls that get pregnant by accident you know. I know women who have been on the pill and used condoms as an added safeguard and STILL got pregnant. Women who never want children. Women who WOULD choose a back street abortion over pregnancy.
At this time, safe, clean and legal abortions available to everyone are the best alternative. Sure there would be more babies born if they weren't so easily available, but more women would die from a whole host of internal injuries and asociated diseases. As I said at some point in the future there will be a better option but right now no.
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"I absolutely hate the view point that if you don't want a baby, don't have sex. Ridiculous."
If you think that, I'd waste time my time (and yours) discussing this further with you. Immediate personal gratification doesn't justify killing. Sorry.
"I do know it must be frustrating to have no say in whether a child you father lives or dies but.... tough cheese really"
Ok. Now that's just sick.
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It's not sick. It's fact. When that baby is out and screaming and you can give it what it needs to survive, that's fine, take it. Until then, it's not your decision.
If you want to campaign otherwise and feel smug about the thousands of unwanted babies being brought into the world, go for it. I'll be campaigning right opposite you, because I don't want there to be thousands of women killing themselves over something that can be done cleanly and safely. In fact if a law came in to prevent abortion I would probably learn how to use the abortion machine and do it myself, jail or no jail. I would much rather that than have women dying in alley ways, their uterus punctured multiple times by dirty steel, bleeding out. Or dying later, in hospital, bleeding still but poisoned blood, their organs failing.
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Knowing I'm campaigning against your (twisted) logic, I suddenly feel pretty good about our chances. Thanks!
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It's not twisted logic. Why is the life of an unborn baby more important to you than the woman carrying it?
Honest truth - if you knew that refusing a woman an abortion meant that there was a risk of her going to a backstreet abortionist, an equal chance to that of the baby being born, what would you do? how would you feel?
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>It's not twisted logic.
You can state it, but that doesn't make it true. Sorry.
>Why is the life of an unborn baby more important to you than the woman carrying it?
It isn't, nor have I stated that. Giving birth to a child does not mean the woman doing so must die. I value both lives equally. Yeesh.
>Honest truth - if you knew that refusing a woman an abortion
>meant that there was a risk of her going to a backstreet abortionist,
>an equal chance to that of the baby being born, what would you do? how would you feel?
see, that's just twisted logic. It's a trick question. "refusing a woman an abortion" never has to mean she's going to have to risk a backstreet abortion. Thst's her "CHOICE" (There's that word again.) It's similar to saying that since someone is going to murder someone no matter what the law states, let's make it legal to do so, so it's more convenient and less dangerous for the murderer.
WTF?!?!
But that's the kind of logic you're using.
People need to be responsible for their own actions. Period. All people. Men and women. If you have sex, there's a possibility someone might get pregnant. Know this, stand up, show some backbone and be responsible for it. Don't be a coward and kill the baby because it'll be 'hard'. Wah. Most people in civilized nations know that back street abortions are dangerous. Life threatening. Easy answer? If you do that, you COULD likely die. So don't go to one, and certainly don't legalize murder because a few people are too dumb to understand this.
Sorry, your logic is absolutely twisted.
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You are one huge contradiction. You keep harping on about people being able to make choices - and that's the very thing you're trying to take away from women.
You may have closed your mind to the reality of pre-legalised abortion, and I'm sure it's fine and dandy up there in your imaginary world, but for the majority of us we realise that it would be barbaric to go back. Abortion is still illegal in southern Ireland and women STILL die. It's not morbid logic, it is FACT.
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HA!
You make even less sense now! If women (and men) were making the right kinds of choices in the first place, '
These women in Ireland you speak of, essentially die by their own hand, because they're choosing to die by the hand of a butcher rather then face up to their own actions. Sorry. Not cutting it.
Keep trying. Your current argument is downright ridiculous.
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Oh for Gods sakes.
Women who had back street abortions in the 1950s and 60s were quite often taken for the procedure by overbearing family members threatening exile or even death if they carried the baby to full term. Again, not twisted logic, fact. These women weren't just innocent they were totally naive - they didn't know what it took to get pregnant, no one talked about it and I'm pretty sure men didn't say 'hey, want me to use a condom because you know, sex causes babies'. Sex ed wasn't exactly scheduled back then.
Sex education is better now but if you go and ask a handful of regular 16 and 17 year olds what it takes for them to get pregnant, a concise, accurate description wouldn't come from each and every mouth, especially not in religious areas such as the bible belt in Middle America and the Republic of Ireland. You think of knowledgable confident women, who know the ins and outs of the reproductive system and yeah, you don';t have much sympathy for them. To be honest, neither do I - this group of women, usually aged between 24 and 35, are the ones more likely to misuse the abortion procedure - I did an article on it a couple of years ago so can remember the stats but they may be a little inaccurate now.
But it's the kids, the ill educated, naive kids who don't realise that sex gets you pregnant, and even if they do, don't really get the full implications of it because they're literally not taught. And yes the same stigma still applies, even in this day and age, to teenage, and even post teenage unmarried pregnancies. Again, especially in religious areas.
Where I live at the moment a big issue is the effect it has in Muslim girls - honour killings still happen, and are in the headlines regularly. A lot of muslim kids are refused access to sex ed lessons, PSE, and even books that could help explain things to them because... well I don't really get why but it's a religious thing - I remember at high school we had one girl who wasn't even allowed to ask schoolmates what they had learned, and was exempt from anatomy in biology lessons
It seems ridiculous, but it's true. So your argument is null and void in these cases. They can't decide not to do something because it gets you pregnant if they don't know, can they?
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I was reading this conversation and was surprised that you lasted this long "debating" with this ignorant sexist asshat. Kudos to you for lasting far longer than I ever could and for making excellent points.
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>Women who had back street abortions in the 1950s and 60s were quite often taken for the procedure by overbearing family members threatening exile or even death if they carried the baby to full term. <
that's 50 years ago. That's the best you got? Even then, you're way exaggerating. A lot. You make it sound like almost every girl got pregnant. You also make it sound like pregnancy is some horrible flesh eating disease. It's not, actually. It's a wonderful thing, most of the time.
>Again, not twisted logic, fact.
One, outdated, exaggerated, unsubstantiated fact.
>These women weren't just innocent they were totally naive - they didn't know what it took to get pregnant, no one talked about it and I'm pretty sure men didn't say 'hey, want me to use a condom because you know, sex causes babies'. Sex ed wasn't exactly scheduled back then.<
HAHAHA! OMG! You paint this picture that all women were just dumb and didn't know anything, and all men are sleazebuckets out to get them knocked up. Even if that was a legit argument, it still doesn't justify killing.
"Oh, I didn't know."
"Well, okay then, that makes everything allright, let's kill it!"
"Yay!"
Inconvenience, or hurt feelings does not justify murder in my book.
>Sex education is better now but if you go and ask a handful of regular 16 and 17
>year olds what it takes for them to get pregnant, a concise, accurate description
>wouldn't come from each and every mouth, especially not in religious areas such
>as the bible belt in Middle America and the Republic of Ireland.
HAHAHA! OMG! Now you're just making things up. I know better. I have a 16 year old son, and a fourteen year old daughter. They have tons of friends.. and guess what? Yep. I live in the Bible belt. South East Iowa. The heartland. If you're going to just make up facts, at least check out where the person you're debating with lives!!!
Fot the sake of argument though, let's assume you're right. It sounds like you should be more concerned about the social issues here (and you probably are). About continuing to educate, children. To me, really, one of the biggest problems is the single mother issue. I'm surpised you haven't brought it up, because most men need to get off their @$$ and take care of their children. I'm well aware that I'm an exception to the rule their. Still, abortion is an easy answer with haunting ramifications. I say, don't so it in a backstreet alley. Don't do it at ALL.
>You think of knowledgable confident women, who know the ins and outs of the
>reproductive system and yeah, you don';t have much sympathy for them.
Fair enough. But then that probably puts us closer to being on the same page then either of us would care to admit.
>To be honest, neither do I - this group of women, usually aged between 24 and 35, are the ones more likely to misuse the abortion procedure - I did an article on it a couple of years ago so can remember the stats but they may be a little inaccurate now.<
I know a boatload of women, and virtually all of them have an abortion story. It's not funny. They almost all have regrets. If you think I'm sitting here "trolling" because I get off on it, it's just not the case. It's a serious issue and people get seriously hurt by it. I DON'T bel;ieve it's a "woman's issue". It's a human issue. It effects each and everyone of us.
>But it's the kids, the ill educated, naive kids who don't realise that sex gets you pregnant, and even if they do, don't really get the full implications of it because they're literally not taught. And yes the same stigma still applies, even in this day and age, to teenage, and even post teenage unmarried pregnancies. Again, especially in religious areas.<
I'll go out on a limb here and assume you're some sort of atheist or agnostic?
Not that that matters I suppose. Thing is, it STILL doesn't justify killing. I have a daughter. Keep that in mind.
>It seems ridiculous, but it's true. So your argument is null and void in these cases.
I don't see how. My arguments are mostly valid in all cases. I believe it's a rare instance when it is ok to kill the baby. I wonder, do you believe all drugs should be made legal, because, you know... people are going to buy them in back alleys? This is the justification you seem to be using most often in your arguments. Women are going to have abortions, so they might as well have access to them in a safer environment. Is that not your argument in a nutshell?
>They can't decide not to do something because it gets you pregnant if they don't know, can they?
And that accounts for about a really low percentage of abortions, and you pretty much agreed to that already when you stated "- this group of women, usually aged between 24 and 35, are the ones more likely to misuse the abortion procedure - "
Really that just goes in line with what I've been saying all along, the bigger issue is stopping abortions from needing to happen in the first place. People need to be responsible, raise their children, teach their children.
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Ok I know it has been a long time since you even wrote this comment but this issue is very serious to me so I'm gonna reply:
My mom's friend got pregnant through planned sex by her husband and when they found out she was pregnant her husband acted like he didn't expect it and told her to get an abortion or he would sell her to the some work company. It was perfectly legal there to sell your wife and your baby. It was also legal to abuse women in the workhouses if she wasn't doing perfectly well, so that's why pregnant women would get abortions if they worked in the workhouses. If she didn't get an abortion she would have been killed, her and the baby.
You keep saying that pregnancy and parenthood is always planned and treated well, but in reality, its not.
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