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BiggestRouge In reply to Spicacat [2021-12-10 16:24:10 +0000 UTC]

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komlan001 In reply to TheSupremePokeFan [2023-05-05 21:07:36 +0000 UTC]

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BiggestRouge In reply to CBCAnime [2021-12-22 14:30:01 +0000 UTC]

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King-Savant In reply to KimikoSaphire [2018-12-11 20:41:57 +0000 UTC]

I am a big fan of Iris and when people treat her like that for calling ash a kid *when misty does the same and no one cares about that* offends me plus if you ask me in that series she was kind of right about that he really was like a little kid basically she was just telling the truth

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waterninja12345 In reply to TheRisenChaos [2015-11-28 13:03:37 +0000 UTC]

10. I honestly didn't mind Dawn in the beginning of DP, Since back then, she managed to take stuff from Ash and May, but utilize them in new ways which made them feel fresh. Mid/Late Series Dawn just fucked over, either being a note for note copy of Ash/May, with no change and no improvement. And the unique stuff she got was just screwed over. Early Series Dawn still had flaws, but she was decent enough I can take her over whatever we got later on. I honestly feel DP Sucked at allowing it's characters to grow effectively. I agree Sinnoh is overrated, and next to Johto, is probably the 2nd worse series of the show. It always baffles me how people wine about Iris being given Dragonite, yet she still did more to earn it than Dawn did Togekiss.

9. I agree, BW Ash isn't great, But I still take him over XY or DP Ash

8. I'm currently going off XY Ash atm xD

7. Thanks

6. Yeah. Serena is overrated as well as underrated, She's gotten a lot better after the haircut, since how much I didn't like her before hand

5.

4. Me neither. I found Brock's character went into decline in BF, But I could still tolerate him.. but DP makes him horrid

3. I agree they weren't as bad in Johto, as well as Hoenn. They got worse in Battle Frontier, but still tolerable, THENN Sinnoh happened. Unova was a nice change, and while they became jokey in DA! They were still tolerable. THENN XY happened xD

2. I agree, Cilan's flawed, but still better than the monster we got last season, and arguably better than Clemont (even tho I admit Clemont is more developed)

1.

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TheRisenChaos In reply to waterninja12345 [2015-11-28 15:42:17 +0000 UTC]

10. I so agree there. To be fair, I liked Dawn better when she guest starred in BW and had adventures with Iris. And yeah, Dragonite chose to go with Iris - Togekiss literally was handed to Dawn by her doppelganger princess.

9. Same here.

6. As of now the only things that bug me about Serena are Amourshipping and how the goal she settled on was a letdown. But otherwise, she's bearable and even likable, especially along with Clemont and Bonnie.

4. I thought bringing Brock back for Hoenn was a mistake to begin with and then he kept getting worse and worse.

3. I actually think they were better in BF than in Hoenn since they got some really good focus episodes and were allowed to get more creative. Sinnoh was them at their absolute worse. Until XY, where they barely even count as characters and are rarely used as such.

2. True, Clemont's more developed, but Cilan's more...I dunno, fun?

1. IRIS FTW!

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waterninja12345 In reply to TheRisenChaos [2015-11-28 16:27:25 +0000 UTC]

10. Yeah. I liked Togekiss, but the way Dawn got it bugs me, along with how much development and how late it is. Honestly, Piplup and Pachirisu were Dawn's only Pokemon I really like. Buneary was stale, Mamoswine was basically a brown, fuzzy Charizard with an appetite, Quilava was alright, tho it was barely developed and was basically May's Squrtile, Togekiss was good, tho it's development, how Dawn got it and when she got it is bad. I'm not even going into Ambipom..

6. I actually like the idea of Pokemon Showcases. The fact there's no battling allows no out the ass wins, as well as a change of pace which I'm welcome too. There's always something new with the first round, which allows each one to be less predicable, other than the boring repeat formula Contests fell into after Hoenn. Plus I like the voting system. The only lets down on them for me is the girls only thing, and the fact other Performer's acts are glossed over, but I take them over Sinnoh Contests. AmourShipping.. it's there? It will probably not amount to anything, but it cute and gives Serena something the other girls don't have.

4. I agree, beginning Brock back was a bad move, especially since loads of his best moments were with Misty (In terms of Humor). He was alright in AG, Tolerable, but nasty in DP. BW.. Tolerable. Since he had Cilan to interact with rather than No one, and he wasn't just used for jokes, since he had the Gyarados to care for, as well as Pansage. If I had to rank them,
OS Brock > AG Brock > BW Brock
DP Brock doesn't even make that list. He's that bad

3. Agreed

2. I agree. Cilan has a more interesting personality, and doesn't have a basic joke, like Brock's Flirting or Clemont's go boom inventions

1. Yes xD

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TheRisenChaos In reply to waterninja12345 [2015-11-28 16:34:38 +0000 UTC]

10. Too true. At her best, Dawn's pretty lovable, but her Pokemon was never all that good.

6. I just found it a letdown that it's pretty much contests without the battles. I like the idea of her in a performance career, but the execution of it could have been a lot better.

4. BW Brock was just a one time thing and fairly enjoyable for what he was. I guess bringing Brock back for Hoenn made some sense since Misty had an arc that he missed out on (Orange Islands) so this made things fair, but they made his and Misty's sendoff so good that even one of them coming back kind of cheapens it's impact.

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waterninja12345 In reply to TheRisenChaos [2015-11-28 16:52:10 +0000 UTC]

10. I prefer Dawn for the first 27 of DP. She had things done with her which I enjoyed. The copied stuff was adjusted enough to make them stand out, plus she had new stuff which wasn't screwed up. Only had a few minor problems with her but she was decen. She's never been good since for me. Mid Series Dawn was bad, late Series Dawn was awful. BW Dawn was bad, tho they did do stuff with which I enjoyed, so I'd probably go Early Dawn > BW Dawn = Mid Dawn > Late Dawn

6. I can agree with that to some extent. I still like the Showcases, more than how Contests were portrayed in Sinnoh (I saw AG & DP Contests differently)

4. I guess bringing Brock back in AG Did make level him out with Misty, but they could have let Tracey travel around with Ash during Sinnoh instead. The Poor guy barely had any screentime, and needed more, so giving him a saga would have done him more justice

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TheRisenChaos In reply to waterninja12345 [2015-11-28 16:56:03 +0000 UTC]

10. Dawn was great for around the first 20-30 episodes. I think her troubles started piling up ever since they put her in that cheerleader outfit for Ash's first gym match and by the next "season" of DP they took their toll on the poor girl so they had to turn to the well of Ash and May traits to keep her character going. But I don't think Dawn was all that bad in BW, really. Heck even Piplup was amusing with his rivalry with Oshawott.

6. Yeah, DP contests were a bore to sit through, especially whenever Zoey wasn't around. She was the coolest.

4. Oh yeah, that's true!

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waterninja12345 In reply to TheRisenChaos [2015-11-28 18:18:33 +0000 UTC]

10. Yeah. I think if they kept up that with Dawn I may have liked her more, after that she became a bore to watch as I've seen that before and seen it better, and by the time she got rid of Ambipom I really disliked her, cause that episode made Ambipom into Dawn's version of Primape, making her team worse, which annoys me cause I loved Ambipom. I wish they kept up the characterization they had for Dawn from the start, rather than Blend Ash & May just to keep her character going. BW Dawn really just elaborated on some of the problems I have with DP Dawn, using her team poorly (Hell, Togekiss only had one line over that entire return), coming off as a people pleaser, and felt like she was just there cause she had to be. I like she battled more, and Piplup was funny, but it could have been better

6. I think it may have been because they focused more on appearance. I know Showcases do the same thing, but the difference is showcases are suppose to. Contests are suppose to show the bond between trainer and pokemon in ways other than just flashy moves. May's contests did this perfectly, showing the trainer working along with their pokemon. Sinnoh contests were to make it flashy. Showcases are suppose to show the bond between trainer and Pokemon is a different way other than Battle, while Contests are suppose to be about the same thing. It's kinda ironic, as the DP Anime Contests were bad, and the Contests in the Diamond & Pearl Games weren't that much better xD

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TheRisenChaos In reply to waterninja12345 [2015-11-28 18:24:03 +0000 UTC]

Anyway...got my Note? xD

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waterninja12345 In reply to TheRisenChaos [2015-11-28 19:34:29 +0000 UTC]

Yep xD I've been looking at them and have been very impressed so far, but I've taken a break about 3/4 ways though as I got an idea for another top 10 meme xD which I've finished, so I'm going to check the rest now xD

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TheRisenChaos In reply to waterninja12345 [2015-11-28 19:36:16 +0000 UTC]

I'd like you to leave comments on them. Should have specified that earlier.

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CBCAnime In reply to Stump8 [2016-11-26 02:32:31 +0000 UTC]

Britt: I agree with these statements, sir/madam 

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TheRisenChaos In reply to Stump8 [2015-11-26 15:27:31 +0000 UTC]

"DP Ash is the worst? The one who actually trained for his matches and honed his pokemon and came up with legitimate strategies? The one who got Ash's highest league rank so far and beat two legendaries in one match?"

You just descried WHY DP Ash is so bland. What about that says anything about his CHARACTER? As in what he's like as a PERSON? Because I want to watch and root for a human being undergoing personal growth on a quest, not a cardboard cutout sports hero with no real depth or personality beyond the cool things he can do in his area of expertise.

And Iris should not warrant hate just for not being shy about criticizing or teasing BW Ash and calling things as they are. To suggest that she shouldn't do that just because this guy had been so "badass" and "experienced" in the previous series shows a certain internalized misogyny that can't bear to see the guy emasculated by his girl companion.

You say Brock was an integral part of the show since practically day one...except he came in in episode 5. Just like Team Rocket came in in episode 2. Misty, on the other hand, WAS there since episode 1, and yet she's the one who got written out of the show first! If she's not a permanent fixture, then no one who's not Ash and Pikachu should be, Brock and TR included.

And I'm sorry, but most of what was said about Dawn was spot on. And this coming from someone who likes Dawn overall.

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figwine In reply to TheRisenChaos [2015-11-26 20:07:06 +0000 UTC]

Uh. Hey. If you're gonna go spouting social justice rhetoric, you might wanna figure urself out, broski. A dude can't have internalized misogyny. That's... just straight up misogyny. And, critique of Iris constantly critiquing Ash isn't misogyny especially when people were fine when Misty, May, and Dawn did it; in fact, people often get upset that Serena never "seems" to (though, she does, in her own gentle way given that she's the least openly boisterous of the girls). She is just, unfortunately, the catalyst for a bad writing choice. It would be best to critique the writers for using what was otherwise an interesting character as their mouth piece to try and bring back humor they left behind in the first season, of course.

But, even apart from that, you seem to be arguing about two different definitions of "character." You need to settle on that. You all seem to be going back and forth on that. Part of you define "character" as "character growth" while others define it as "personality expression." You don't necessarily need to grow as a person to express your personality. In the same breath, you DO have to express your personality to grow. So, before y'all continue on himhawing, it'd be good to just ask "okay, are you asking about GROWTH or EXPRESSION" because there are characters from well beloved and respected literature that never really grew during the story but their expression was absolutely divine. The type of writing involved also depends on that. Basically, make sure you're even talking about the same thing.

... Though, given that Dawn is my baby, too, I'll have to disagree. Dawn wasn't written as a character that needed to "grow"; she needed to be refined. She already knew who she was and what she wanted to do. It's a stark contrast from May, who she's the supposed "clone" of. This doesn't even dip into their personalities and the way they interact with others. I genuinely don't see how any of her Pokemon were misused except for maybe Buneary not evolving despite seeming very happy and Ambipom being given away. Piplup's refusal to evolve was well explained; he's afraid of change. Pachirisu had loads of personality and served to prove even one of the most prepared beginning trainer (Dawn) just can't account for a Pokemon who won't listen. Mamoswine mellowed out as he got bigger/fully evolved/Dawn earned his respect. Quilava did pretty well in the short time in the series the little fire type had.

I can't agree where she felt generic or bland, though. She wasn't nearly as controversial as Misty or Iris, no, but this is the same girl who tried to physically fight someone for not remembering her name, had what was probably a panic attack over two tiny electric types, and didn't seem too romantically aware which is a sharp contrast to Misty and Serena and arguably Iris who acted a bit more "adult" than the rest (of course, this might verge into willful ignorance given that there are some scenes where Dawn seems to know Kenny has a crush on her but most of the time is either unaware or pretending to be unaware).

But, I'm genuinely curious: what actions did you think were contrived? The only one that really comes to mind is the Buneary modeling scenario, and even that was handled realistically by Dawn. She's pretty much always put her Pokemon first. The situation is contrived, yes, but that's no more a reflection on her personality than the fact that the day she was supposed to get a starter from Professor Rowan all the pokemon had all run away.

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TheRisenChaos In reply to figwine [2015-11-27 00:26:33 +0000 UTC]

I did not comment just to get a rant from someone I wasn't even addressing. 

I love May, I love Iris, I actually love Dawn overall, and Serena has her moments that makes me more forgiving of her than I was when she started out as a character. But Ash? I wish more than anything that he and his Pikachu would go to the discarded character pile and stay there. His time has looooooooooooong since expired. Same goes for Team Rocket.

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figwine In reply to TheRisenChaos [2015-11-27 04:42:18 +0000 UTC]

Aight, then why are you tryna get in on something you didn't make if it isn't a free for all for commentary and why are you watching an anime when you don't even like the main character?

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TheRisenChaos In reply to figwine [2015-11-27 14:31:12 +0000 UTC]

Designated Protagonist Syndrome exists and Ash fits the bill. You can watch and even enjoy something for more characters, stories, and aspects than just the main protagonist. There's no rule saying that the main character has the be a big appeal.

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figwine In reply to TheRisenChaos [2015-11-27 16:24:35 +0000 UTC]

Uh, how? Aside from the fact he's a character who hasn't been removed from the cast and has been brought back to life (though, that's not entirely too far fetched of a feat considering the numerous ghosts and sacrificial plots we've seen such as the Tower of Terror episode and the Lucario premier; death in the Pokemon universe isn't as cheap as that in universes such as Dragon Ball's, but it's not exactly always a final curtain), what, exactly, has he had just "handed" to him or otherwise done that makes him an audience surrogate or flatly vanilla?

I suppose, but you'd be miserable given that he's in pretty much every episode. And, from a writing perspective, that is pretty much the rule. Your main character is the base of your story, the bread and butter of your plot.

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TheRisenChaos In reply to figwine [2015-11-27 20:57:19 +0000 UTC]

He's been doing the same ol' "travel to regions, catch Pokemon, train Pokemon, battle with Pokemon, fight Team Rocket, battle in gyms to earn badges, and lose at the League" routine for years, his personality has been flattened, he has no interesting or substantial relationships and interactions with other characters, his dialogue consists of horribly repetitive and unrealistic phrases, he's talked up as super special awesome by others, there's little to him beyond being a nice guy who loves Pokemon, his desire to achieve his goals doesn't have weight to it anymore since he seems resigned to failure these days, and did I mention he's bland? Sorry, that's not a hero I want to root for. And he totally IS an audience surrogate and flatly vanilla.

If episodes are too focused on him, then I usually pass, but otherwise he can be just there without being the actual focus. And yeah, from a writing perspective, the anime fails to make their main character engaging. That's bad writing on their part. This is why Designated Protagonist Syndrome or Vanilla Protagonist are tropes.

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figwine In reply to TheRisenChaos [2015-11-27 21:20:41 +0000 UTC]

It's... almost... as if his career requires him to continue to travel and gain experience. Team Rocket really isn't his fault. What? Are you expecting a ten-year-old to take down an entire criminal organization by himself or genuinely pose a threat to a couple of adults?

How can you say he has no interesting or substantial relationships with any of the other characters? Have we been watching the same show? He is both a friend and a driving force for Clemont who, despite being a gym leader, isn't as traveled as Ash and seemed more sheltered; he and Clemont both push each other to be better battlers, more invested in knowledge (on Ash's part), and/or act more assertive (on Clemont's part). That's not even dipping into the fact that Serena's interest in Ash goes beyond her own crush and her admiration for him being able to stick to one path (something she found herself incapable of, initially, as it was in her character to be wishy washy at first). The other characters such as Paul, Dawn, May, Max, Brock, Misty, and Ritchie... None of them had/have substantial relationships and interactions?

When... does anyone in-show talk him up as super special awesome except in the rare occurrence (often movie exclusive or a one episode plot) that he's super special? The Greninja-Ash arc and the bond between him and Azelf are the only long term plots I can think of where he's treated "differently"; otherwise, it's just people respecting him as a battler, something he earned through trial and error.

And? He's ten, battling ADULTS most often. He's doing extremely well for his age, so miss me with that "he's resigned to failure." How old are you and how close are you to your goals? That actually gives him a shit load more depth than half the "shonen" archetypes that keep being compared to him. He's resigned to fail because he's a wet behind the ears pup compared to all of these seasoned adults, but he keeps trying anyway, most likely because he knows that one day he's going to reach that level. So, sure, you can say you're frustrated with the stagnation, but him not growing up isn't a characterization flaw. That's a writing flaw. He's exceptionally successful for a ten year old.

Aight, you can have fun with other characters. I'll continue enjoying a refreshingly enthusiastic youth who grew out of his childish punk phase and is getting as close to being a well rounded adult as the anime will allow. If you're looking for someone who's edgy and getting upset that Ash is a genuinely nice guy these days without the assholery of the OS or the doormat nature of BW, that's your business.

No? He's still very interesting. Given that the writing staff knows they have to prepare for another series potentially, that's their limiting fact. Despite that, they still manage to pull off episodes were we get to explore Ash's characterization and even the occasionally tie back into how his character has been previously expressed. But, you don't seem to care for subtly.

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TheRisenChaos In reply to figwine [2015-11-27 22:09:52 +0000 UTC]

Oh. Good. Heavens. XDD  I dare to state my dislike for the boring-as-heck-with-few-redeeming-qualities-how-the-heck-is-he-popular Mary Sue Audience Surrogate "hero" of this anime and you go on this hilariously personal, passionate rant?

"as if his career requires him to continue to travel and gain experience."

That's not a good excuse to not change the focus to another protagonists. Pokemon Special features a bunch of trainers whose lives and careers go on but we always shift focus to different ones in each arc. That's how it should be done in the show.

"Team Rocket really isn't his fault. What? Are you expecting a ten-year-old to take down an entire criminal organization by himself or genuinely pose a threat to a couple of adults?"

No, I'm expecting two adults to grow the f**k up, stop stalking a ten-year old for his Pikachu, and get on with their lives as criminals so that they don't have to intrude on every single plot the anime gives us. Y'know, like their BW days? That way Ash can at least have other antagonists to face rather than the same damn ones almost every episode.

"How can you say he has no interesting or substantial relationships with any of the other characters? Have we been watching the same show?"

Well he has Pikachu. And there's also......no, that's about it.

"He is both a friend and a driving force for Clemont who, despite being a gym leader, isn't as traveled as Ash and seemed more sheltered; he and Clemont both push each other to be better battlers, more invested in knowledge (on Ash's part), and/or act more assertive (on Clemont's part)."

Now just watch as Clemont takes all sorts of inspiration from Ash and comes out better for it, but Ash feels no such strong emotions towards Clemont and forgets all about him after the two part ways for good. Ash and Clemont's acquaintanceship is of no lasting benefit to Ash - he'll just trade Clemont out for a new model like he does with all his male and female companions. (That's what they are - companions. I wouldn't call them friends.)

"That's not even dipping into the fact that Serena's interest in Ash goes beyond her own crush and her admiration for him being able to stick to one path (something she found herself incapable of, initially, as it was in her character to be wishy washy at first)."

As with Clemont, that tells me something about SERENA'S character and how SHE is going to grow. What does it say about ASH? Ash AS A PERSON? What does HE get out of this little plot point? In the grand scheme of things, nothing. 'Cause he is a tool and a plot device used to springboard other characters' stories and developments. Because he has no story and development of his own. Period.

"The other characters such as Paul, Dawn, May, Max, Brock, Misty, and Ritchie... None of them had/have substantial relationships and interactions?"

Paul, the rival with whom Ash bickered with about training methods for an entire series, beat at the league, then never so much as spoke or thought of again. Dawn, the new model of May whom Ash supposedly grew a close friendship with yet showed very little emotion over saying goodbye to her and didn't treat her as anything special when he saw her again in Unova. May, the new model of Misty whom Ash mentored in Pokemon ways yet barely cared about her career enough to watch her partake in contests and who ultimately became very disconnected from her. Max...that one was kind of on-and-off, but it WAS nice when it was on, I'll give you. Brock, the guy he traveled with for ages but soon started to feel no strong comradere with to the point where when the two split ways for good, it felt natural and inevitable. Misty, the ONLY girl he had a good dynamic with, this I'll admit - but he's largely forgotten about even her these days. And Ritchie...his clone. What about him?

"When... does anyone in-show talk him up as super special awesome except in the rare occurrence (often movie exclusive or a one episode plot) that he's super special? The Greninja-Ash arc and the bond between him and Azelf are the only long term plots I can think of where he's treated "differently"; otherwise, it's just people respecting him as a battler, something he earned through trial and error."

Seen XY lately? It's the "Ash Ketchum's fanclub talks up how super special awesome Ash is because Ash does most of the cool proactive stuff and hogs all the glory" show. The Ash Greninja thing is the absolute nadir of this.

"And? He's ten, battling ADULTS most often. He's doing extremely well for his age, so miss me with that "he's resigned to failure." "

When Ash was written as a REALISTIC 10-year old boy, he was very passionate about his goal and succeeding in it. That made him more interesting. If he doesn't care about it as much anymore, neither do we in the audience. Whenever he sets off on a new badge quest, there's no way "have fun losing in the end!" should NOT be your immediate thought now.

"How old are you and how close are you to your goals? That actually gives him a shit load more depth than half the "shonen" archetypes that keep being compared to him. He's resigned to fail because he's a wet behind the ears pup compared to all of these seasoned adults, but he keeps trying anyway, most likely because he knows that one day he's going to reach that level. So, sure, you can say you're frustrated with the stagnation, but him not growing up isn't a characterization flaw. That's a writing flaw. He's exceptionally successful for a ten year old."

None of that makes him any more interesting. All I'm seeing from him is the Excuse Plot in character form. If he was an actual character, he'd be substantial as well as successful, as opposed to going through the motions like he is now.

"Aight, you can have fun with other characters. I'll continue enjoying a refreshingly enthusiastic youth who grew out of his childish punk phase and is getting as close to being a well rounded adult as the anime will allow. If you're looking for someone who's edgy and getting upset that Ash is a genuinely nice guy these days without the assholery of the OS or the doormat nature of BW, that's your business."

OS Ash was not an asshole - he was a 10-year old kid. Maybe if Ash was a teenager or young adult, his characterization would be less problematic, but he's positioned as STILL A 10 YEAR OLD KID. 10 year old kids do NOT act the way Ash does in the current anime, nor do they talk like him. And who says I liked doormat BW Ash? He was just as painful to watch as ever - the jokes at his expense just offset that a *little* bit. But that's something done to, at, and with the character, as opposed to something that came FROM the character.

"No? He's still very interesting. Given that the writing staff knows they have to prepare for another series potentially, that's their limiting fact. Despite that, they still manage to pull off episodes were we get to explore Ash's characterization and even the occasionally tie back into how his character has been previously expressed. But, you don't seem to care for subtly."

I'm sorry, but no. "Subtly" and the Pokemon anime are things that rarely go together. "Subtly" and ASH are things that NEVER go together, just like Ash and characterization. You're not changing my mind here. Ash Ketchum from midway into AG and all the way to XY is Bella Swan levels of badly written protagonist whose made a blank slate for audiences to project things onto.

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figwine In reply to TheRisenChaos [2015-11-28 03:15:58 +0000 UTC]

Bruh, what about that was personal? And, you didn't state your "dislike", you came in and state ya shit as if it were fact. Don't argue if you don't wanna get argued with?

I suppose that's a valid point with the comparison for Pokemon Special, but that's pinning a writing staff issue onto CHARACTERIZATION. You keep acting as if Ash as a CHARACTER is somehow responsible for the fact we continue to be shown him. He would still be doing these things off camera, as evidence by the Special characters continuing their journeys even when their chapters end.

Again, that's not a characterization issue on Ash's part. The majority of your issues with him seem to revolve on things that do not reflect on his CHARACTER but rather the entire way the show is set up.

When has Ash ever "forgotten" about a past companion? What kind of stagnant person are you that you don't recognize the people you are physically involved with daily can change? Have you never changed schools, had a job opportunity, or just flat out had a personal gain to be made from physically moving locations? That's what's going on. Ash isn't ditching and forgetting his old friends. He makes numerous references to them in series. Ash is a child in a universe where he's considered an adult; he's doing right by his career to move on. Furthermore, the vast majority of his friends do right by their own careers by moving on. They don't forget each other - they're improving themselves.

Dude, literally every character ever written is a plot device and meant to further plots. Do you even write? No character has a story without other characters. And, it says plenty about Ash. It said when he was young he had a lapse in his typical bullheadedness to be kind to a stranger, something that matches OS canon since he was always shown to be a little asshole until someone got in trouble and he'd (begrudgingly or not) try to help.

That wasn't bickering over "training methods." Ash and Paul were discussing how you treat sentient creatures; it was a philosophical discussion but on a level ten year olds could understand.

Dawn really isn't a new model of May, but aight. And, of course he isn't gonna get choked up. She was already choked up. He'd been told previously in the series by Brock that Dawn was upset but she wouldn't let him know, so the least he could do when they were saying goodbye was not make it worse on her. When your friend is crying and you can't do shit about it, you don't make them feel worse, you try to get them to laugh and look on the bright side.

How is May a new model of Misty even? That's a mark of character growth, too. Ash was never overly interested in Misty's career, was only partially invested in May's, became highly invested in Dawn's since she could battle with him, and eventually learned to be a good enough friend to remain invested in Serena's despite the fact he benefits very little from such. And, dude, they were getting ready to split paths. May's always been shown to be adaptable and by now Ash knows the routine. She made new friends who shared similar interests to her. Ash would be a big dick if he didn't just let that happen.

Of course it felt natural. You can't drag your friends around with you forever when both of you are in that stage of your life. They're BUILDING their lives. None of them have settled down yet, unless Brock somehow gets an age up as a doctor. Brock had come to a career decision he was happy with. Ash is his friend; he wants Brock to be happy. Besides, he knows where to find him if he wants to chat. It's not as if they were saying good bye forever with.

Didn't he bring up Misty's handkerchief in XY? And, naturally. There's no reason to talk about her. It'd be weird if he constantly brought up old friends in the middle of new adventures. You can't live life in the past.

It's called a foil, and Ritchie was a good one for Ash. The two of them were very similar and Ash's quickly formed friendship with him highlighted their strengths and differences. Admittedly Ritchie really DID get forgotten about after a certain period, but that's likely - again - because Ash has no prompt to bring him up.

You got sources for that? When characters just say "OH WOW ASH!" except for, you know, the socially inexperienced engineer who's likely impressed by Ash's social charisma, the kid who is obsessed with Pokemon and naturally drawn to Pokemon and therefore a dude with lots of them, and the girl with a literal and actual crush on him? Anyone else? I don't really see how it's glory hogging when that's no one else's strength to be the Action Bastard. Clemont's strengths don't lie in physical prowess and judging by their gym battle episode, he probably knows (especially now) that Ash is probably better suited to handling the bullshit insane dangerous situations. Serena does pitch in, but again, she's both less experienced than Ash and her career gives her very little incentive to get physically proactive. Finally, what the fuck is Bonnie gonna do? She's like 5~8. That's not the Ash fanclub; they all have a niche and they equally praise each other for performing a job that keeps the group highly functioning. It just so happens, you know, that on a show that's premise is fighting monsters that Ash happens to excel at that.

Ash-Greninja is also about BONDS, something it has ALWAYS been shown that Ash is something of a prodigy for. From the original Mewtwo movie where the pokemon were so moved by his sacrificial desire to not see them fight to the Larvitar who came to trust him despite its own trauma revolving around humans to Victini befriending him, Ash has always shown himself to be someone who can be vulnerable to and close with Pokemon. Ash-Greninja is only an example of poor writing for him because it is not an explicit Mega. If anyone was going to get a special form simply from love/closeness, it makes complete since for Ash to be the one.

Since when is Ash less passionate about winning? He's less arrogant because he's gotten his ass kicked and his might tested enough that he knows he's not the only rider in the rodeo. ... Wow. You... really don't know how to enjoy the road and not focus on the destination, huh?

Did you really just say a completely logical explanation for why Ash isn't winning leagues out side of the Orange Islands is an Excuse Plot? Dude, an Excuse Plot is literally designed to not make sense. This is the opposite of an excuse Plot. How is he going through the motions???

He tried to punch Misty in the face; he was a little asshole, a lovable one, but he was most definitely a little asshole.

Well, naturally, but ten year old kids are extremely difficult for other kids to get a straight answer from. That's a writing sacrifice. You either get really realistic dialogue - wherein intention isn't always obvious, sentences frequently fragment, and dialect often makes communication difficult - or you get something a kid can understand in a cartoon.

How... do jokes at his expense make up for that?

I dunno, you don't seem to be projecting yourself or your pretentiousness onto him very well. But, I guess you're right. Your mind won't change.

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TheRisenChaos In reply to figwine [2015-11-28 03:58:22 +0000 UTC]

Geez. CHILL. THE EFF. OUT. Any more text rants and I'll be tempted to block you.

The writing issue has led to a characterization issue. The longer the writers have used Ash, the duller and flatter his characterization has become and the less engaged people are with him. With the way Pokemon Special is set up, the main character take breaks before we ever see them in action again. With the way the anime shows up, it's all Ash all the time for what's inevitably to be over 1000 episodes some day.

LOL at calling me "stagnant" while defending Ash. Talk about a serious lack of self awareness. And stop trying to apply real world logic to an unrealistically written Japanese cartoon show. There is nothing natural or believable about the dynamics, interactions, and livelihoods of these characters.

Yes I write. I plan on being a writer some day. I know what good writing is, and the Pokemon anime very seldom has it. You've shown yourself to have no idea what the term "plot device" refers to when used to describe a character. A non-plot device character is on whose actions impact their own arcs first and foremost (benefiting those of other characters' comes secondary), who has a well-rounded personality with goals, interests, backstory, families, friends, likes/dislikes, fears, quirks, points of view, etc, and has very specific functions in the plots and settings of a work that are handled with care and passion. A plot device character is the opposite of all that, and Ash, as of now, falls into that latter category. There's also nothing bullheaded about helping a stranger in need, and if anything it disproves your "little asshole" claim.

It was training methods - that's how the show itself summed it up. Ash was always "I have my methods that involve treating my Pokemon as buddies and partners and equals, regardless of how strong and successful they are or not", while Paul was always "I have my methods that involve treating Pokemon as soldiers or tools of battle that serve to get me further ahead and make me stronger, so if they're not strong enough, they're worthless to me." And that was all fine and good when it started. But then it kept going and going and going, with the same points getting repeated every time and with little to no resolution on the matter. Worst philosophical debate ever.

To the staff, and thus the writers, and thus Ash, Dawn is the new model of interchangeable girl companions. And sorry, your explanation doesn't convince me. Ash could've at least showed some emotion once Dawn had LEFT.

See what I said before - May even continued the "electrocuted bike" tradition that resumed and stopped with Dawn. And I just feel like after a certain point, Ash's presence became pointless to May's arc and character. Then again, it was around that time where Ash's character became pointless, period.

People like to reminisce sometimes. Many characters in other anime or other works of fiction think back to other characters who made significant impacts on their lives. Ash not doing that just makes him look like a tool - essentially a automaton programmed only to love Pokemon and to quest, battle, and make trite statements.

I didn't have much of a problem with Ash and Brock's farewell. As we've said, it felt natural and at that point, right. I can't imagine it going any other way.

You just described why they're the Ash Ketchum fanclub. Ash's other companions never looked to him with such reverence regardless of their situation. It just serves to reinforce how the XY group is a massive step down from Iris and Cilan.

You ever heard the phrases "there's a limit" and "a line has to be drawn somewhere." That describes this Ash Greninja BS. When your bond with Pokemon is so strong that it gets a Pokemon to take on your attributes and have your name in it's name, you've reached Mary Sue territory.

I could not worry about the destination for about two or three regions. SIX major regions, TWO island archipelagos, and a Battle Frontier quest all with THIS SAME ONE CHARACTER...I'm sorry, I get fatigued. There's little to nothing enjoyable about his quest at this point.

I said Ash is the character equivalent to an Excuse Plot. He's an Excuse Protagonist - he now exists solely so the show can keep going, new Pokemon stuff can get marketed, and the companies can make more money. What, did you think he existed to be a great, fulfilling character with a great, fulfilling arc?  As for how he's going through the motions...just what number "alright Pikachu, use Thunderbolt to blast off Team Rocket!" are we on now?

When did he ever try to punch Misty in the face? And if he did, I find it hard to blame him since Misty has a history of physically assaulting HIM. There should be no double standards here. I do agree he was a lovable little shit and THAT is how I like to remember him. There were ways to grow and mature that character without distorting him like they've done since mid-AG.

You might not project, but you certainly are pretentious. Like Ash all you want, that's your opinion, you're entitled to it, and I can't change it. But please don't go around acting like Ash is some triumph of writing and characterization in terms of main protagonists, nor that the Pokemon anime is some consistently well written narrative. It's a marketing vehicle that has it's moments of brilliance...but Ash rarely has anything to do with any of them. Ever.

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Stump8 In reply to TheRisenChaos [2015-11-26 19:55:41 +0000 UTC]

He's the same person he's always been, I really don't see why either of you are seeing any different. His personality's just as heroic, outreaching, and sentimental as before. What about his storyline with Chimchar? Clashing with Paul? Willingly being a target for both Elektrike and Staravia to help them improve and reach their goals? Plenty of other moments I'm not even thinking of, I'm sure, too.

Believe it or not, I do find his improvement as a trainer interesting. Ash becoming a better trainer/striving to be a pokemon master is one of the core tenets/themes of the entire show, why shouldn't I be interested in how he's progressing? In the past he's been prone to mistakes and ignorant; which is fine, nothing wrong with starting out as a beginner. But watching him move beyond that and learning to implement strategy all on his own is fulfilling and part of Ash's character growth. If you don't care about Ash's success, doesn't that make a big chunk of the show a bit of a waste? People can watch it for what they want, but I love seeing Ash improve and succeed. And DP delivered.

"Calling things as they are?" She was shown very often to be hypocritical and criticizing over other characters so much as having fun. Sure, you can say that's part of her character and her growth, that's fine, it plays a role, but she was still wrong a good chunk of the time. Where do you get off calling what I say misogyny? I couldn't care less whether Iris was a guy or a girl in that situation. My core issue with it is that Ash is portrayed as incompetent and spineless after he'd progressed a lot in the past, making all of that development seem invisible. I don't care if she goofs on him or if they bicker both ways, but most of the time it was one way only. 

I don't want to see Ash degraded period. At least not in the recurring systematic way that it did. Sometimes her remarks were funny and I didn't mind them, but when piled on with him being a worse trainer than he was a series before, there's a problem from a writing perspective.

Five episodes in to a series that's hundreds of episodes, there's no need for semantics. I'm not arguing what should have happened, that's a fair argument, but that doesn't change the experience people already have had with him, given how the show actually progressed. It's not hard to imagine why people are attached to him.

I just can't see it. A few borrowed scenarios, maybe. But her character and May's are very different.

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TheRisenChaos In reply to Stump8 [2015-11-26 23:35:29 +0000 UTC]

"Heroic, outreaching, and sentimental" were ASPECTS of his personality back in the day, not his entire character. He got Flanderized to the point of becoming as stale as year old white bread. All those things you describe tell me Ash is a great guy who does great things and that is BORING. I want more to his character than just a "oh wow, he sure is a great trainer who loves his Pokemon" male power fantasy, but that's all his character is these days.

I shouldn't be interested because you don't have to sacrifice characterization at the alter of a character's goal. And no, I don't care about Ash's success because I don't care about Ash as a person and I KNOW he's not going to win the big league at the end and will move on to another region to do it all over again so what's the damn point of getting invested? That big chunk of the show involving Ash is very mus a HUGE waste. That's why I watch it for a bunch of other stuff that does NOT involve Ash and his formulaic fail of a quest.

That's Iris' own way of having fun and teasing her friends. I do wish Ash could have caught on and teased back more, but the writers don't give any damns about Ash any more, nor do I blame them. As for the hypocritical part, that was either played for laughs or part of showing her own immaturity that she'd need to grow out of is she ever wanted to aim for being a Dragon Master. At other points, she called Ash on things that she didn't even have any pretenses of not being guilty of and freely admitted as such with much self awareness - she just teased him over his shortcoming cause she could. That's just how she is sometimes. And I say misogyny because all the hate Iris gets is directed at an aspect of her character that's not a fault simply for existing, but because it's at the expense of a male character who fans feel should be supported and praised all the time rather than teased, criticized, emasculated, or brought down to Earth. It's why girls like Dawn and Serena are better received because they're "good girls" who "know their place."  It sends very unsettling messages about how people feel a girl is "allowed" or "not allowed" to act in front of certain guys. If she speaks her mind and gives the guy flak, then HOW DARE SHE, SHE'S A BITCH!!!!!

I'll admit that was a big problem with Ash in BW and unfortunately the way they're handling him in XY (pretty much the opposite extreme) is not the way to fix it. But like I say, Ash ought to have been dumped as a protagonist ages ago, otherwise this wouldn't happen.

Dawn's not exactly identical to May or Ash, but the writers did borrow heavily from those characters because they got too lazy to write Dawn as her own person.

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waterninja12345 In reply to Stump8 [2015-11-18 22:40:11 +0000 UTC]

DP Ash, imo, was too stale too be likable. AG Ash was able too do what DP Ash did (be a good battler), while keeping his personality, and I honestly feel AG Ash is the best one. Since AG, Ash's character has been too inconsistent for me. DP & XY Ash are good battlers with little personality, while BW Ash was stupid, with personality

It's irritating, but fans really overexaggerate it. Her development as a Dragon Trainer isn't that bad.. I think it's good. Only thing which should had happen is Axew evolving. Dragonite's and Iris's growth was good, she learnt how to control her dragon mind reading abilities.

I agree

Considering how people say the show went bad because Brock left.. yeah



Being given a Pokemon isn't a crime.. it's when you get given on without earning it. She had a bland personality, it was too typical. She was similar too May personality wise, loads of things she did were similar too May. Making her too much like Ash is a sign of laziness. Not bothering to create a character from scratch. Iris felt more unique, with only basic similarities too Misty, with entirely different development and personality. Serena.. at least has more uniqueness than Dawn. Contrived actions? There was one time in an early episodes where Ash and Dawn got into a tag battle, only for Dawn to get pissed for Ash asking her why she had to delay the battle to do her hair. There were so many problems:
1. Dawn would never go to get extreme. In episodes before and after, she would look in her mirror for a split second, not drop to the floor and do her hair for ages. On top of that, she got pissy as Ash for asking why she had to do it. It was a blatant rip-off of "The bicker the better" from AG. She isn't an awful character. She's just one who gets love from generic places

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Stump8 In reply to waterninja12345 [2015-11-18 23:00:51 +0000 UTC]

I really don't see how he was stale. He had plenty of good moments. Like Pika and Goliath? They tested his bond with Pikachu there, and though a lot of people understate it, he was plenty goofy in DP. I think people are just thrown off by the fact that the show takes him seriously and focuses more on his battling. 
He certainly had more personality than XY Ash.

It's not all that exaggerated. She says it almost every episode, if not more, and often for a dumb or petty reason. I get that it's the joke, but with Ash's issues already there, it's hard not to get annoyed. And I don't see how her development was all that good. Sure, there's Dragonite, but like you said, Axew. That thing was horribly handled. They were supposed to get stronger together, and Axew wanted to evolve from the start. And they never addressed that. Just occasionally threw it a move that it never used again, and it stayed feeble and pretty much just a cute mascot through the entire damn series. That was her only dragon aside from Dragonite, which is another issue. It was altogether just a disappointing ending.

Well that much is true, and I've probably said it myself in the past. But I think that's a more complex issue. People know he had his issues and still miss him because he's a big part of the series.

It's not as if she was given it as a beginner. She'd already earned her share of ribbons by then and had to train Togekiss to compete in contests properly. 
What does that even mean, too typical? 
She... Really wasn't all that similar to May at all, you're not giving any examples aside from fighting with Ash, which pretty much every girl does in this show at least once. They're two completely different characters, apart from being coordinators. I never even thought of May while I was watching DP... Aside from her appearance of course. Dawn had her own start, her own background, her own personality, her own struggles, her own interests... I just don't get how she wasn't made from scratch. They took a player character and gave her her own story.

How is Iris less similar to Misty? If anything that was a direct attempt at emulating her. Certainly more in common than May and Dawn, who just have the same profession and completely different beginnings.

Pokemon has tons of repeat episodes, the Bicker the Better isn't the only example of that, and throwing that on Dawn isn't fair. Hell, we recently got one just as similar, with Trevor wanting to get a shot of Moltres, just like Snap wanting to see Articuno. It's a long series with hundreds of episodes, of course concepts are going to be repeated.

And nothing about that really stood out to me. Dawn is conscious of her looks and was on TV. Dawn has a temper, that was firmly established early on. Those things came together when Ash criticized something that was important to her. You might as well say May flipping her lid over food was contrived. 
If anything in this series character-wise is contrived it's Ash in BW.

What does "generic places" mean? That I'm lost on. Is there something inferior about being a fan of Dawn?Submit Comment

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waterninja12345 In reply to Stump8 [2015-11-18 23:24:22 +0000 UTC]

Meh, Every Ash did that, and pretty much all of them pulled it off better.

Umm, Yes it is... I know for a fact she didn't say it every episode. People acted like Ash did nothing to deserve it, and that Iris is from a descendant from hell because of it.

Not just that, loads of her Pokemon were rip-off too. Pachrisu - Skitty, Cyndaquil - Eevee for May, and Mamoswine - Charizard, Piplup - Pikachu for Ash. She also has her last contest being used from "A Cacturn for the worse", which has a rival use a fear to their advantage.

Unlike Dawn, who felt like a May add on, Iris felt like a more unique character, having Misty traits, but her development and start was different too Misty

Pokemon does have repeat episodes, but this one was forced.. like, VERY forced. Dawn was conscious when on Camera, but unlike previous and later episodes, where she merely looks in a mirror for a few secs, here she delayed the battle just to do her hair without checking it first. May's food problem wasn't as bad since she was played more like a female Ash personality wise, plus, the ways it was handled weren't forced either

Nothing, I just know loads of Dawn fans who like her souly for how generically nice she was to everyone, PearlShipping, her MiniSkirt other stuff too. Hell, similar to Misty & Serena, Dawn has her obsessive fans, and I found one where they literally insulted all the girls just to make Dawn sound better

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Stump8 In reply to waterninja12345 [2015-11-19 02:41:49 +0000 UTC]

How do you even figure? The only other Ash to beat legendaries was in AG, and this DP Ash beat two in a single match. Not to say it isn't very impressive, but I'd definitely say that's a step up. That's still ignoring the fact that he ranked best in that region, and also beat his toughest rival in the entire series. 

I said almost. I've been watching BW from the start and she says it pretty often. Maybe not down to the number, but I hear it most of the time when I watch the season, I can say that much with confidence. And most of the time, he really didn't do anything to deserve it. Most of the time he was just having fun and she had to be sour and condescending about it. And the thing is, the few times it was deserved are even worse to fans, since Ash shouldn't be acting like that at this point to begin with. They made him more immature and took away his backbone after DP and other characters jabbed at it. As an Ash fan, it's hard to watch and worth criticism.

I don't outright dislike Iris, she's growing on me, but that is an annoying trait.

Where do you even figure that response? You're just linking random pokemon together on vague traits that could apply to a lot of characters. You might as well say every egg pokemon, disobedient pokemon, and starter is a rip-off. Hell, you could say Dragonite is a rip-off of Ash's Charizard, and there are even more parallels there, including their rivalry. But that's not necessary; it's just reaching for criticism when the character did nothing to warrant it.

And how does an underhanded rival using underhanded means make a character a knock-off? It's just the writers using a similar idea, that's not intrinsic to Dawn's character.

Iris... Really felt a lot like Misty to me. Tagged along without asking, wants to master a certain type of pokemon, is prone to criticizing and/or arguing with Ash, generally the most critical of the three. And of course she's different in plenty of other ways, she's her own character, but the mirroring is very obvious, like Brock and Cilan playing a similar role. Just like Dawn and May are plenty different in their arcs and personalities despite being coordinators. You're moreso linking coincidences throughout the series from outside their characters than their own personalities and paths.

And Dawn being similar to Ash in the vein of Pikachu, their drives, etc. was completely intentional mirroring to make them co-stars. That's a design choice, and hardly a flaw. They're alike enough to work together and different enough to be their own standalone characters.

Because she was on camera. You spelled out the big difference there for me. We'd never seen her in that particular situation before so there was no way of knowing, but her previous fretting over appearances to the point of refusing to show herself in the morning are totally consistent with that. And she even grew to do those things less as Diamond/Pearl went on as she got more used to traveling.

You're literally saying May was being used as a female Ash and criticizing Dawn for the very same thing. How is that not hypocrisy? You're just saying it's "not forced" on a subjective level and I can't figure out why. I wasn't bothered by either of them or their traits. They're characters in a shonen series and are likely to have some likenesses. Pokemon's not exactly intricate, tropes are going to exist.

She wasn't "nice to everyone," even, she was a good hearted person with a temper... Yes, people are going to like someone being kind, it's generally a likeable trait and you could say that with almost any protagonist.

How is being a fan of pearlshipping a detriment? Yes, I'd imagine liking a ship makes someone likes a character more lol. Go figure. People like the ship because of how it was written. I like it for that reason. Ash and Dawn supported each other throughout DP and both came out better at their goal because of it and bonded. I think that's likeable writing and it made me like the characters and the arc more. How is that "general," or shallow? What makes your opinion better than that?

The only people I ever see talk about her miniskirt are people who bash a ten year old over their dressing style and people who are perverts about it. I rarely see either aside from rare occasions. 

Her fans insulting other girls to play her up... Yes, that happens... You do realize every single pokegirl has those kind of fans right? That's not even exclusive to pokemon. Fandom wars have been happening forever, you can't pin that exclusively on Dawn lol.

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waterninja12345 In reply to Stump8 [2015-11-19 17:01:49 +0000 UTC]

May was played like a female Ash PERSONALITY wise, not ACTION wise. May has Ash like traits, but is still got her own development, her own goal, her own identity. Dawn didn't. She was literally a note for note copy of OS Ash with May traits thrown in. She showed basically no uniqueness in her character. Pretty much ALL of Dawn's actions (Aside from becoming depression, but that has NO impact on her) were either Ash or May, and she can easily be linked back too one or the other. At least Iris (& Serena to some extent) had more uniqueness in their characters and development, even if they also had traits from previous characters. Dawn doesn't. Sinnoh fucked up hard character wise. Ash was stale, Brock was annoying and Dawn was bland. The only series worse than Sinnoh is Johto. DP's character development fucked up too. Dawn and Brock were prime examples.

My main issues with Dawn, uniqueness aside, what would she actually have if she didn't copy off anyone? Mamoswine, Contests, Piplup not wanting too evolve and so much more, an what we're left with is what Serena was like at XY's start, minus the crush, which is one of the reasons people don't like Serena. I know your gonna make the Iris - Misty argument, but Iris would still have is her entire team, her development, her dragon heart reading abilities, and most likely her goal, since it isn't just note-for-note off Misty, and she wouldn't miss anything (Maybe her fear of ice types and possibly the catchphrase, where the idea may have been taken off Dawn, who's catchphrase, imo, is a million time worse. "No Need to Worry was some worthless shit which was only played as a forced joke)

Just to rap things up, I just find Dawn to boring too be likable.
For me, the only way they can get worse, is Serena's personality + Misty's amount of development + Dawn's uniqueness + Dawn annoying-ness

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Stump8 In reply to waterninja12345 [2015-11-20 01:43:19 +0000 UTC]

Everything you just said about May, Dawn got. Dawn is played as a female counterpart to Ash who has her own personality and did get development and her own identity. Yes, there were contests, but if that's enough to make you consider her a carbon copy, then I don't know how you're defending Iris.

I feel like you're reaching because nothing about Dawn reminded me of May. Dawn was sure of her goal from the start and had a parent to live up to in the very same profession. Unlike Ash and May, she already knew the basics of her profession rather well, and had to learn to hone that in practice. May had no interest in being a trainer at all; hell, she didn't even like pokemon when she started. 

May wasn't half as concerned about her appearance as Dawn was, and that was a quirk of her own. Something none of the other characters displayed to the same extent. Sure, May cared, and even Misty did, but it wasn't a pointed out quality in the same fashion. 

How can you point out one of Dawn's biggest character themes, the depression, and say it doesn't even count? How didn't it affect her? It threw her off for a good chunk of episodes and was something she had to overcome. She had to learn that sometimes losing happened and that you have to pull yourself out of it. Just because you arbitrarily discount it doesn't mean it wasn't unique to her. By the end of her arc, she had to learn to stand on her own two feet, and took her losses in stride and even started playing a mentor role to a new trainer in her post-DP special. 

And I couldn't disagree more on Sinnoh. I still don't get how Ash was stale. He actually had an established rivalry that he had to deal with on a regular basis, had to learn to accept trainers with different philosophies than him, and pushed himself harder than he ever had to become a better trainer consciously and climb a very difficult wall. He had to watch his team get systematically destroyed and predicted and learn to counter someone who's that cold and calculating. Out of that, we got the best battle in the entire series at the league. Aside from that, he wasn't all that much different, aside from becoming more mature than before, which is character development.

Brock could have been better, but he hardly subtracts from Ash and Dawn.

If you're going to go after Piplup not evolving, you better bring Iris down with you. Plus, like I said, that particular trait was /intentional./ She was supposed to mirror Ash in some ways and that was made blatantly clear. If you don't like it, whatever, but don't act like it was an overlooked error. And I still haven't heard how Mamoswine as a copy. 

If you're seriously comparing end of DP Dawn to beginning of XY Serena... Or Dawn at any point, for that matter, we must be watching an entirely different series. Dawn had determination and a set dream from the start, Serena was the complete opposite. 

I will still make the Misty-Iris comparison, because we come to the same conclusion. Some similarities, different character arcs.

How is "no need to worry" worthless and a 'forced joke?' You keep saying she has no unique qualities and when they're pointed out, write them off for some arbitrary reason. That's her motto; she's confident, sometimes too much, and that's her mantra. Johanna and eventually Ash countering that is just showing that they know her. It's certainly not as obnoxious as "what a kid" being spouted at everyone around Iris when they're having more fun than her.

You don't have to be crazy about Dawn, but don't lie about her. To be totally honest, I consider her and May the most well developed of the girls by far. But that's my opinion and you don't have to share it.

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