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TheRisenChaos In reply to ??? [2015-11-28 04:32:19 +0000 UTC]

I still don't get how Ash was stale. He actually had an established rivalry that he had to deal with on a regular basis, had to learn to accept trainers with different philosophies than him, and pushed himself harder than he ever had to become a better trainer consciously and climb a very difficult wall. He had to watch his team get systematically destroyed and predicted and learn to counter someone who's that cold and calculating. Out of that, we got the best battle in the entire series at the league. Aside from that, he wasn't all that much different, aside from becoming more mature than before, which is character development.

Ash VS Paul was a dick measuring contest. I'm sorry but beneath all the pretense of philosophical debate on training methods and how to treat sentient powerful creatures, that's what it amounted to. The rivalry drove him to train and battle harder, but it didn't drive him towards his goal nearly as much as Gary did (Gary was constantly on Ash's mind, whereas Paul is someone Ash would often forget about until he came back onto the scene). Everything else you described is a sports hero's arc in a competition-based narrative. That doesn't say a whole lot about the charater's value to me. The anime's original creator/head writer, Takeshi Shudo, actually said he preferred refraining from too much focus on the competitive aspects and rivalries in Pokemon because it's all based on which party holds more power than the other, and since that's too much of an issue in real life, he found it repugnant. So Ash's DP arc was the sort of thing he'd wanted to avoid and I can personally see why. So Ash was still absolutely bland in DP, and maturing does not always = character development, especially if it's born of the writers just flipping a switch on the character to make him seem mature despite having no convincing personal growth to have earned that.

"It's certainly not as obnoxious as "what a kid" being spouted at everyone around Iris when they're having more fun than her."

At the same time, Iris' attitude and use of the phrase had roots in her backstory given how immature, insecure and socially awkward she was among other kids, and how she doesn't like to be left out of others' fun, and is thus all Sour Grapes about it. Dawn's catchphrase was there just because. It fits with her character but it's still just...there.

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Stump8 In reply to TheRisenChaos [2015-11-29 05:50:04 +0000 UTC]

With Gary and Paul, I saw the opposite. Paul was consistently present in Ash's thoughts and his drive to get stronger and find the right way to train pokemon while Gary just popped up now and then to go "haha, I'm ahead of you, smell you later!"
Before Johto, Ash would just fume over Gary being ahead of him and that would be that. It was little more than comedy until much later on. Which is fine, but he's hardly more present than Paul was in DP.

I don't see how it didn't drive him towards his goal. He had to learn to battle with his head and was punished for being reckless and relying on pure spirit. In the end, that'll be Ash's priority, but he learned to better balance that with tactics, and whether you dismiss it or not, they did clash over their ideals. Sure, they battled to determine which was right, but that doesn't change the plot's existence. Paul had to learn that sometimes people like Ash would be right and his method wasn't always the best, and Ash had to witness the fact that not every pokemon relied on his feel-good philosophy. They both learned from it and came out better for it. How is maturing NOT character development? It wasn't out of the blue, it came out over an entire saga through consistent interactions. I'm not sure how much more you want.

Shudo's also the guy who had a lot of influence in the season where Ash's big first competition ended in an extremely unfair and contrived match where Ash didn't really learn anything in his loss aside from his Charizard being a dick, which he already knew. He had a lot of great ideas, and I commend him for that, but I can't stand that about him. Ash's dream is to become a pokemon master, and that's how the show started. To completely ignore that and veer away from him being more competitive is insulting to the viewers, frankly, and results in perpetual disappointment. See: the fandom's reaction to Ash's treatment as a whole, from outright haters to fans who want to see better. DP was a blessing to me because it showed him growing in his profession. That may be stale to you, but it's what I watch for. Why even bother if he's not getting better?

Besides, Pokemon's been about battling from the start, straight from the games. Ignoring that is foolish.

Yes, and that has its place. But that doesn't mean it can't be annoying either. It can be good writing and still irritating to listen to when that's the whole point of it.

Does every catch phrase need to have deep roots? Some people just have things they like to say and it fits Dawn's optimistic personality. I'm not sure what you're looking for. I'll admit Iris' has more basis in the plot, but they're two different characters with very different arcs.

We seem to want very different things from the show, so I can't imagine us coming to a serious consensus. Ash progressing is very important to me. Sure, other things are too and that warrants commentary. But to me, it's anything but stale inherently.

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TheRisenChaos In reply to Stump8 [2015-11-29 06:08:38 +0000 UTC]

Really? Name which episodes Paul got referenced in despite not being present or not being relevant to that episode's plot and end goal, please? 'Cause I'm forgetting those ones. Gary wasn't as present as Paul, and his rivalry with Ash wasn't as intense as Ash and Paul's, but damn if he didn't push Ash to try to get ahead even when he wasn't even around.

I knew that they were going for a nuanced rivalry where neither party was entirely right or wrong and both rivals had to learn from each other, but it honestly did not come off on screen very well. But this one is not Ash's fault - Paul's utter lack of humanizing qualities might be the big contributor here. As for Ash's own development, it sort of existed in the vaccum of that one rivalry subplot. It didn't have much impact on the rest of his character and progress in DP, and certainly not afterwards since Paul has yet to be referenced since he and Ash parted ways at the Sinnoh League. Overall I think the entire idea was done better when it was Ash and AJ in just one episode of the original series.

To be fair, not everything was firm in Shudo's hands. He'd originally envisioned the series ending with Ash VS Gary at the Indigo League, but when it was made to continue, the writing process changed and the writers came out with the bullshit end to the Indigo League we got instead. I'm not sure if a single party is to blame there. But I overall agree with Shudo's approach to the series. I get into Pokemon for adventure first, competition second, not the other way around that the DP anime perpetuated. Ash wasn't "veering away from being more competitive", it's that the competitive aspect of the series wasn't given as much screentime as the other, more fun aspects. He could very well get better at his profession without them stretching his life story out for more regions/generations/series' and without us having to watch every bit of training and pre-battle strategics that he does. These are things that work for games but don't necessarily translate well to a cartoon show.

It's been about exploring, collecting, trading, AND battling. There are facets beyond just battle, competition, and rivalry.

I really think catchphrases like "No need to worry", "You're such a kid!", "It's tasting time!", or half of what Team Rocket says shouldn't be spammed as nearly as they are in order to avoid being annoying. But hey, that's the sign of lazy hack writers who work on this anime.

I'll take the endearing newbie Ash with a fleshed out personality to the experienced trainer Ash with little to none. Thanks.

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waterninja12345 In reply to ??? [2015-11-20 10:26:22 +0000 UTC]

*Sigh* I might as well say what she did right because that's apparently the ONLY thing I'm aloud too say about her D:<

I like she at least had a different start too May, and she was actually decent, if not semi annoying, up until she got her first ribbon.
She showed she was able too do what Iris did: Take character traits from other characters, but change them enough to make them feel her own. This is highly shown in her Student-Mentor Relationship with Ash (Taken from May), Her reaction too losing (Taken from May), and a joke which she got near the beginning (Taken from Ash):
* While the Student-Mentor Relationship was taken from May, it was handled new enough with Dawn too make it feel fresh. While May depended on Ash, and took everything he said on board, Ash struggled with Dawn, even to the point of them arguing, because Dawn just didn't have the brain power too. It also wasn't the bulk of their relationship, and they ended up becoming good friends, and while they would go on to make the friendship too generic for me to care about, and too run it into the ground, it was a welcome change too see it played like that.
* We all know the joke Ash had at the beginning of OS, He woke up late and was late too the lab. Dawn had a joke played in a similar fashion, except her joke was that she couldn't find the lab and was panicking while trying too find it. It was played well, and actually funny (Since loads of Dawn's jokes weren't funny.. at all)
* Both May & Dawn Cried after their first loss, but the way they were different, and for once, Dawn was the one who played it better. May just sat in the back and cried, while Dawn went and cried to her mother, which could have screwed up, if she hadn't learn't she did have to call her Mother everytime something happened. Dawn was never good with emotional scenes, With every other girl (including Iris & Bonnie) Upstaging her, so having her learn a lesson was welcomed

Dawn's decency lasted until she earned her first ribbon, then she just kinda went shit, with everything unique about her being screwed up one way or another, and what was copied from Ash & May, was almost note for note, and done worse.

Honestly, though how much I don't like the way she was handled later in the series, she's still developed enough too be considered a developed character (I can't say well developed cause that would require a positive overlook of her development, which I don't have), even if ALMOST everything was copied. May is the most developed of the female leads, with Iris coming 2nd, Serena's 3rd, and Dawn in 4th. Misty is underdeveloped, and I would complain, except she got more episodes than every girl, plus, the writers should have given her more in Johto.

I still don't like her (Mostly down too mid/late series Dawn).

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TheRisenChaos In reply to waterninja12345 [2015-11-28 04:33:27 +0000 UTC]

For me it's May > Misty > Iris > Dawn > Serena. But you know that already.

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waterninja12345 In reply to TheRisenChaos [2015-11-28 12:37:53 +0000 UTC]

Cool. Mine would probably be
Serena > Iris > May > Bonnie > Misty > Dawn
But to each his own

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TheRisenChaos In reply to waterninja12345 [2015-11-28 15:30:04 +0000 UTC]

Forgot to factor in Bonnie! XD She'd be around equal to Serena by now.

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waterninja12345 In reply to TheRisenChaos [2015-11-28 15:44:32 +0000 UTC]

Cool

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TheRisenChaos In reply to waterninja12345 [2015-11-28 15:46:22 +0000 UTC]

Oh hey, you got free time now on the weekend?

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waterninja12345 In reply to TheRisenChaos [2015-11-28 16:05:22 +0000 UTC]

Yeah, I have got some now

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TheRisenChaos In reply to waterninja12345 [2015-11-28 16:06:38 +0000 UTC]

Should I note you with some pic links?

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waterninja12345 In reply to TheRisenChaos [2015-11-28 16:34:29 +0000 UTC]

Go for it

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TheRisenChaos In reply to waterninja12345 [2015-11-28 16:35:54 +0000 UTC]

Already done!

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waterninja12345 In reply to waterninja12345 [2015-11-20 10:35:01 +0000 UTC]

I mean't too say I wouldn't complain about Misty, sorry bout

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