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#comic #forgiveness #graphic #papyrus #sans #toriel #deeperdown #undertale #novel
Published: 2019-08-03 22:20:27 +0000 UTC; Views: 30485; Favourites: 367; Downloads: 22
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Last page for this week! Getting close to the end of this scene, so yay!COVER BACK NEXT DEEPERDOWN WEBSITE > > >> gettingdeeperdownwithundertale…
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Comments: 85
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So that's why he doesn't like puns! 
Excellent detail! 
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Aww... Papy... I certainly have a few people I wish you could tell this too... it seems so simple and yet, so many people are unaware of it... how strange...
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Papyrus is anything but naive.
He's sweet, lovable, kind, and he's absolutely adorable sometimes! <3
...Though he's anything but naive.
He's wise & caring~
And it not only takes a wise & caring friend to call you out on your BS...
But it also takes a wise & caring friend to tell you the honest truth... so you can better yourself
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I wonder if the reason Sans doesn't open up to Paps is due to the resets. Could it be that he has done so during the first resets he could remember and because he never truly knew if the resets had finally stopped he decided not to go through Paps forgetting again. Maybe now that he's seen frisk destroy the reset button he'll finally feel comfortable with talking everything through.
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i binged this entire series in just two days and im e x c i t e d for the next page sdfgh
it was really interesting to see how much your style has had its changes through the entire thing !!! I especially really like the way you draw Papyrus and Toriel!
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This story is SO GOOD! Just binged it. Man, the FEELS in the last 4 pages!
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love this comic!!
(i found a life hack about my computer mouse, for some reason i can use one battery instead of two idk why though)
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Aaaaw big bro Sans teaching Papyrus all the right things! <3
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Well, God damn Papyrus, you are such a pure skelly boi. TwT
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Hi! Sorry, I saw a conversation going on and it excited me, I hope it's okay if I join. ^^
Allclonesbride , furglerainbow , and Apex-Jarico , I was actually really glad that you all took varying views on Papyrus's actions! When I originally wrote this scene, I had no idea that it would divide people so much, I was only going off of a personal experience of mine. You all point out really interesting points, each right, especially in certain points. I rarely comment back these days, but this was such a good conversation and a chance for me to help get my head on straight as well. DeeperDown is a REALLY complicated story in some respects, and sometimes talking things out with people helps me keep track of where I am and how to proceed.
Each section is geared toward a particular person, but please read the others as well, because they're all sort of interconnected. <3
Allclonesbride , you are very right! Papyrus is a voice of inexperience here. Yes, forgiveness is great (I am a HUGE advocate for the importance of forgiveness, especially in my own life), but the concept can get messy, especially when dealing with certain subjects. Papyrus is not naive, he is in fact very smart and perceptive, but here he is stepping a bit out of bounds. HE has never had to forgive someone for something so severe. Which is why his comparison to Sans falls so short (on purpose as far as being the author goes). Papyrus can't understand just how hard a thing this is for Toriel, because he's never had to forgive someone for something THAT terrible (yet). After all, we all make assumptions or grand predictions of what we ourselves may do in various situations. It isn't until we face those emotions or hardships ourselves that we truly see what we might do. Papyrus is guilt tripping Toriel without realizing it. All he sees is two people he cares about, hurting, and he feels he needs to be a good friend and tell them...even if, in reality that may not have been the best way to go about it. Papyrus is, essentially, being very hypocritical. Without meaning to be. But hmmmmmmm, why would I write things that way? Was it maybe because there's more of this particular topic to come? Proooooobably. 
furglerainbow , aw, don't worry about it! You weren't a jerk at all, you were expressing very real concern for this topic, and that I greatly appreciate. I feel I should apologize, in a way, for upsetting you so much in the first place, which wasn't my intention at all. For me, forgiveness has always run very deep, especially most recently. I have forgiven abusers and attempted-murders; people who tried to kill my best friend, and people who hurt me and messed me up pretty badly. My religion is also very much based in the concept of forgiveness and mercy. BUT, I understand very well that forgiveness isn't easy. And Papyrus's words here will hit various people differently. To people like me, who have received or given forgiveness, it's a message we're familiar with, and one that carries hope. For others, his words are a reminder of their own many hurts, people they've never forgiven and have no intention of forgiving. And that's okay. You can't tell others to forgive someone else. That's where Papyrus is making a mistake. I'm a firm believer that forgiveness is right, but also that one person can't make another person forgive someone else. I've struggled with this. I forgave my abuser, my mother did not. At first, I tried to encourage her to do so, but then realized that that was wrong of me. I can't tell my mom how to feel about what happened to me, any more than Papyrus can tell Toriel. The difference is the coming to of that understanding. I didn't know, now I do; Papyrus doesn't know, but maybe he will. I moved on from my past through forgiveness, my mom moved on (or is moving on) through the understanding that I'm okay. That I'm moving on, and what happened to me in the past didn't 'break' me, or 'ruin' me. That's what this scene is really all about. It carries various messages, depending on the person who reads it, and recounts one of my own experiences, one of my own mistakes, and one of my own victories in moving past something that was very hurtful and scary.
Last but not least, Apex-Jarico ! 
Thank you all for your comments and views, and for everything! It means a lot to me. <3
- Zeragii
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Dude, you took the words right out of my mouth. I'm working with a friend to create an original fan-story for Undertale, and we didn't want to play Papyrus off as childish or stupid, but not so mature he loses that Papyrus touch. This is a great example for what I want for my Papyrus in the stories.
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Thank you! It's a difficult tightrope to walk though, that's for certain!
Good luck with your story, I know it will be AWESOME!
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Hm, I think that Papyrus will have the occasion to test himself too, sooner or later... and we'll see if he can practice what he preaches XD I think some things cannot be forgiven - and sometimes shouldn't, even though I have the tendency to forgive a little too much, I don't forget - and I absolutely agree that hiding depression is on a whole other level than hiding a bloody deed like murder or anything along those lines, but, yeah, Sans is hiding murder too, unfortunately, so it will be really interesting to see if that can be forgiven. People are complicated and sometimes you can love and appreciate a person who has committed bad things anyway, especially if it was an accident or they were somehow pushed to act in a certain way, or they did it out of self-defense... the list is really long. Writing about characters who have killed is really interesting, especially when they're not evil. It makes you realize that anyone could do such things, even the most righteous people -- Sans is the judge, and Asgore is the kindest character, in my opinion - and how to deal with that for them and for the people surrounding them. Probably, Papyrus is right that you don't stop loving someone like Sans or Asgore because of what they did, but, for sure, your image of them will be shattered forever and you'll see them under a completely different light - Pap is pretty naive, but we'll see how things will go, and it will be really interesting if he can accept what happened. It's understandable that Toriel doesn't love Asgore anymore in certain interpretations, but it's also understandable that she still does and maybe deep down wants to be close to him again... I mean, I like all these different points of view, and I think they all have some bit of truth to them.
It's a complicated and fascinating topic, and characters are the most interesting when they have both good and bad in them, so... yeah. It just depends on which side they decide to be. Also, you have the problem that Sans and Asgore were basically at war or in extremely complicated circumstances; that doesn't justify murder at all, but it makes comprehensible what they did, the reader sympathizes - at least, I do XD
But forgiveness, as you said, is subjective and means a lot of different things. If forgiving would mean that Toriel herself would be less bitter - I don't know, she seemed really bitter to me here towards Asgore -, that would be good for her, but... yeah, it all depends on how you will make things happen, etc. But, since I think you handled Sans forgiving Flowey pretty well - and Sans has a lot more reasons to hate Flowey than Toriel to hate Asgore -, I have faith you will handle this well too
Life is complicated, even fictional life, and if it creates a discussion, it means it has hit people's imagination, and that's good.
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Oh whew! I was worried I might not be wanted to join in, I did kinda come out of nowhere ^^ So I'm relieved it was okay
No worries, friend! Your tone was perfectly fine (believe me, compared to some notes I've gotten in the past, yours was practically love note....figuratively speaking ^^). It just shows how much you care about the character(s), and how invested you are in what happens to them in the story or how they act and behave. It's what I love to see from readers (even if i get a bit anxious when things don't come across just how i meant them and people react accordingly ^^).
Aw, thank you for sticking with DD! Despite how long this comic has been going on for, I'm really very new to this whole storytelling bit. I'm sure there are, and will be, many mistakes along the way; things that didn't translate out to be how I intended. And sometimes topics I don't expect riling people up, just because it's just a way of life for me, often catches me off guard. But then I end up learning a lot, about how other people think and how other people act in regard to certain things. It certainly has been an experience!
Again, thank you for your engagement in my comic, and for being a key contributor to my ever ongoing journey.
Have a great day/night!
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Pardon me if I wedgie in on this little chat.
On Papyrus and his little forgiveness speech. It had to be said by someone at some point. And who better than our very own eternal optimist, Paps? Can anyone find fault with it? Is it not the truth? Won't unforgiveness and bitterness eventually consume you? It can shorten your life! The best thing you can do is find some way, any way, to at least move past it, and the very best thing is to forgive, somehow. His advice, if spoken a bit simply, perhaps a scouche naive - perhaps not, is so wonderfully profound, and it sounds to me exactly like what he would say.
On the characterization of the people here. I know everyone has their own ideas of how things would go in our beloved characters' futures on the surface. But this is such a HUGE change in all their lives, being set free of the Barrier and allowed to leave their Underground prison. The change in their Monster constitution is just one small part. A whole gob of emotional and spiritual factors would have hit them all at once. All manner of joys, uncertainties, fears... all sorts of things to challenge their psyches. And on a fundamental level, Zeragii isn't Toby Fox, so something will be a little off here and there. Every fanfiction is different and has a unique flavor. But a lot of these fan creations capture the essence of these wonderful beings to the degree that they're authentic enough. Otherwise, you wouldn't read any fanfics, play any fan games or watch any YT vids, am I right? But we do, because we're addicted to this game, the story and these people, and we want more. My own journey to falling in love with Undertale and Deltarune is quite amusing. Anyhow, you also have to consider the format. Zera can't spend forever developing a two hour heart to heart with anyone. Each page has to boil down the scenes to the very essence of a plot point which dovetails smoothly to the next one. So things will be rushed, things will be fudged a bit, so for instance, Flowey has to have a quick epiphany or Zera would get bogged down and have to work her brain-fingers off to write and paint ten panels at a time. But hopefully I'm being Captain Obvious here.
On Toriel and her grudge. I wrote my thoughts down on the previous page, I believe, so I'd be interested in people's thoughts on it. Spoiler: she's not innocent in the matter herself.
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Ture...
True... ...
Damn...
ok... My portrayal on Characters in general, are vary "cookie cutter simple" when I see a character act or do something that's utterly "out of Character" I think to myself, "well thats not the way thus character acts?" which makes me want to know why... then in my head I go in to this long drawn out analyzation tangence of the reasons for thus change... 
as i said earlier. Personally, I can't wait to see what you're going to do next.
like... every character you're writing now seem to be off a little or a lot pending on which we're seeing. however again as I said before... Paps is clearly not acting like "Himself" in this comic. nor is Flowey, or..., hell... the only ones your keeping themselves "in my eyes" are Asgore and Undyne... BUT, you give legit reasons why EVERYONE is the way they are...
So I'm not harking at anything on your comic... I think?...
but nuff on that stuff... I thank you too yes....
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Heehee, I know what you mean! then again, I'm a rather slow thinker, so just about anything takes me a few months of contemplation.
Whew, I'm glad I haven't come across as such (changing characters for no reason), I was hoping I wasn't. I try to account for what I do, though I am sure I fail often enough.
Once more, thank you so much for your impute and view on all of this. It is greatly appreciated! Have a wonderful night! Or day, depending on where you live. ^^
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Well. I think it's vary "Legit"
BUT that's all my own take so far... if you have a totally different take on it,,, Thats all good and dandy. 
I can keep going with all the characters but my point haveth been said, & I shan't bug no moe's
ttfn yes.
Ps: Its always a "good Night" BECAUSE no one knows where anyone lives anymore. XD
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Um, I think you're completely misinterpreting this. Though I don't blame you. I was of the same opinion; got super upset because I've had some really bad relationships (and this little scene in Deeper Down kind of struck a cord) and sent Zeragii a huge long private message that was, to be honest, a lot more aggressive than it needed to be. I feel really bad about it now. (zeragii if you see this i'm sorry i was such a jerk!)
Papyrus is NOT trying to guilt Toriel into anything, he isn't trying to tell her how to deal with her grief or her feelings for Asgore. He isn't trying to get them back together. He's just voicing a worry, a worry he has for TORIEL specifically. Because he's seen how the anger completely changes her, from kind gentle goat mom to someone seething inside and out. He's concerned for her, and he's telling her because he's worried about what that will do to her long term. He's not telling her how to FIX anything, he's telling her that, for both her and Asgore's sake, they have to move on, no matter what that means; whether it means getting back together or whether it means going their separate ways and never seeing each other again. Asgore MURDERED children, and Toriel abandoned him to his mistakes. She should have stayed, and tried to stop Asgore. She could have taken the thrown or something, I don't know. Their sins are no where equal; murdering kids is WAY worse than what Toriel did, but neither is completely innocent. They're both guilty on some level or other, but Papyrus sees how it's tearing them apart. And it hurts, because he cares about them both.
Of course, to TORIEL it probably does feel like he's guilting her. Papyrus's intentions are supposed to be innocent and worried, but they carry a lot more weight than I think he realizes.
BUT ANYWAY! This is just a comic, not real life. We really shouldn't get so upset about it. I mean, I know why I did, and I realize now maybe that was taking this all a little too much to heart. I myself hold a lot of anger toward some people, and I didn't like my favorite skelebro telling me to forgive them. But...honestly, hating people is a lot of work, and it has eaten away at my life for years. I can't forgive those people, it'd take a lot, but I can feel the need to move on. I think Sans in Deeper Down said something that I can really connect with. I think it was back in the scene where he and Flowey are talking in the dark of new home, just before he and Flowey become allies. He says, "I'm tired of hating", and I think I am too.
I also think it's funny how Zeragii is just trying to tell us a good story and we all start ripping into it because we start comparing it to real life, or even our own lives. I don't know if you do that on purpose or not, Zeragii, but it certainly stirs up a lot of conversation, usually from more than one point of view. XD
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Agreeable... The Papyrus I know is an ego-driven Lovable Narcissus. Bliss to his surroundings, & Truly believing that HE is the shining light to make people happy and dissolve any & all sorrows folks may or may not have... He would give no F***s if one dislikes another, so long as he thinks folks are happy being around him.
HOWEVER... on the other side: I see how Zeragii is writing Paps here. reading the whole comic I see why Paps is this way. I see why Paps is guilting Toriel. it is extremely clear he's not doing it on purpose though.
but nuff on that...
I think this "Talk" Paps is going on about would have been better is "honestly" if it was a different character all together. Changing a character so drastically to fit the flow to a story is Bull. At the same time, Nearly every story i read haves this problem with at least 1 or 2 characters per... "Timeline"? It's the creator's choice.
& personally: I'm eager to see what's Zeragii haves planned.
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My heart strings are being pulled hard. Sans honestly has the best brother that could ever exist.
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Truly powerful Paps. You go ya lil skele! Sans would be proud of ya!
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I must say I am loving how you are having Papyrus act. That is beautiful.
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Honestly, the fancanon of Papyrus being naive and even downright stupid disgusts me. It should be obvious that he's aware of a lot more than given credit for. He downright manipulates Undyne, which a stupid person wouldn't know to do, and a naive person probably wouldn't have felt a need to do. He knows his friends, their strength, weaknesses, limits... His puns are also not only much more common than Sans', but also a lot more original and smarter. He probably just got tired of skeleton puns, for some strange, mysterious reason. And yes, he likes fluffy bunny. But what if he's more into the tradition of Sans reading it to him, than in the story itself? Considering Sans' at least 5 jobs, the fact he seems to spend most of his day at Grillby's, and who knows how long in that lil lab... *shrug* I'd get cranky if my only present family prefers spending time in a pub than give me like half an hour out of their day.
In my opinion, he's aware of all the bullshit going on. He enjoys his costume, so he wears it despite knowing people will judge him. He'd rather stay true to himself than become a people pleaser. And even if shit goes down, he still believes everyone can be a good person, if only they try. He is aware that, if they do not try, they obviously stay the piece of shit they are. And all that makes him, by far, the most inspirational, cool dude in all of undertale.
... Now, sorry for the rant, but I think people need to consider this.
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That's what i like in Undertale EVERY character has a pretty deep personally, but sadly only Sanses comes out in many fancomics... I'm also always öretty anoyed9 if some says Undyne is just a hot headed, reckless monster completely ignoring how caring a nice she is, or Asgore... This is what i like about this comic Sans is not the only one with a Personality...
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Yeah... It is just really sad that everyone else is often ignored while Sans is almost always the main character... I mean i like him, but i saw almost no emotional Mettaton or Undyne comic and it's just a bit annoying... (And about Paps i think he made even more puns than Sans, at least if you always call him... I don't understand why so many think he hates puns...)
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Do you know "Flowey is not a good life coach"? Papyrus is the main character and Flowey also says that he is smart but naiv because he don't kill (it is still Flowey)... And if you talk (write) like this over Papyrus it rembers me about Undyne... (Whatever) And thank for the story i will read it. (Every character should get a good story with his/her personality not only Sans...)
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oh yeah... I only know "An unexpected guest" else even if Undyne still acts weird Paps matchs quite good on the orignal (Just don't like Sans puns, but making some himself, lies for Sans... (Things which you sadly sees just raly in stories...) )
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