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AtheosEmanon — America is not number 1
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Published: 2012-06-07 16:01:57 +0000 UTC; Views: 23681; Favourites: 349; Downloads: 27
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Numbers are up to date as of June 7, 2012 when this was posted ..[Disclaimer: These words herein are mine and shall only be attributed to me. I am a liberal, a progressive, and a democratic socialist ...yet I do not speak for anyone else other than myself so I ask that my words not be attributed to anyone but me.
With that, I do not expect everyone to agree with this piece [and expect it to ruffle some feathers, especially if they just read the stamp without reading the following piece and then just run with it having only read the stamp]
The numbers below are the most recent at the time of the original Post about the State of these United States of America and I am sure may change at a later time.
While when I say that we are not number 1 based on my views I generally get the usual, you hate America, you should move elsewhere… which makes me think one of my favorite H. L. Mencken quotes
"The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is naive and usually idiotic. He is, more likely, one who loves his country more than the rest of us, and is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched. He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to despair."--- H.L. Mencken
This stamp came from my seeing two people arguing that their countries are number one and anyone who disagrees were stupid. So they were arguing in circles, and since I am an America, this country is great, but I am of the view no nation is number 1, but if you do believe that, then there are certainly things within our country that should be addressed if you believe that view.
I personally fail to see how saying your country is not number 1 shows a hatred for it, … and the notion that if you love a country, as I do that you should leave it rather than try to change it has been challenged here:
This is America, love it...or change it
atheosemanon.deviantart.com/ar…
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science.”
Charles Darwin
America is a great country, I will never deny that, it has been through a lot in its short 230+ year history, but the idea that we are the “greatest” country in the world… makes me take reservation with such… or rather makes me question the validity of the people saying this.
Would the greatest country in the world have 150,000 people dying each and every year because of a lack of medical coverage?
… up 300% from the early 90s study of 45K Americans dying each year. This is bothersome because as the nation’s population has grown only 34% in this time you would expect a 34-40% increase in deaths to go with the population increase, but instead you have seen a 300% increase in deaths due to a lack of medical coverage.
monthlyreview.org/2003/09/01/t…
www.urban.org/uploadedpdf/4115…
www.pnhp.org/excessdeaths/heal…
now, some states are better at it than others and for that I do commend them
www.americashealthrankings.org…
Yet as a nation, we have 50.7 million Americans as of the 2010 census that have no health insurance at all…
That is 1/6 of our nation that is without health care…
To the optimist they will say, but.. it is great that 5/6 of our country has health insurance!!!
… but to me, the pragmatic realist, that is little comfort to the 50 million people without health insurance… it is little comfort to the sick to say those people have insurance and you do not; just as it is little comfort to the starving to point to someone with food.
To harp or rather step on the last sentence of the previous sentence, this week America learned some horrifying news, that America is now second in Child poverty rates, following only Romania, in developed countries… is this a mere blemish on our greatness that in such a rich nation we are second of all developed countries in child poverty rates? I say to you it is more than a mere blemish it is a great disgrace of the ages, because in our modern politics, any ounce of help has been marked as collectivist communism!!!
voices.yahoo.com/unicef-us-has… www.unicef.org/socialpolicy/in… www.upi.com/Top_News/World-New… www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05… www.communitychange.org/page/s…
With 50 million Americans currently living below the poverty rates, can we truly claim greatness, as previously stated, to the optimist they will harp on 5/6 not being in poverty, but that is little comfort to those in poverty.
www.census.gov/newsroom/releas… thinkprogress.org/economy/2011… www.nationofchange.org/50-mill… www.marketplace.org/topics/wea…
come on, surely we can do better than this, when did apathy become a governing strategy? When did compromise become an impossible position in our nation’s politics? When did the distasteful thing of greed become something to be modeled after?
… now on to how we treat our veterans.
As someone who comes from a large military family I feel it would be a disservice if I did not discuss this.
We also learned from Army Times a military newspaper
www.armytimes.com/news/2010/04…
That 18 soldiers commit suicide each and every day, what we also found out from DOD papers is that it can take months from when a soldier requests mental help, to when they actually do it. Really? They make that bold step to admit they need help… and you tell them that they must wait for months and this, is the nation I am supposed to grant greatness to the title of best in the world?
Like poverty, and the uninsured, and more importantly like soldiers.. to have people who have fought for this country now dying in greater numbers by their own hands than on the battlefield is a disgrace.
We can surely do better than this but as with all things… they have become so partisan that things that used to be a quick five minute SURE yes vote … now takes hours, days and weeks and then gets filibustered and generally does not pass because of that dumb fuck 60 vote rule which was not the intention of the filibuster to be used on every single bill. FOR THE RECORD: I am not speaking of just Republicans, it seems whichever party is in the minority calls it because they know they do not have a majority so trying to raise the bar from 51… to 60 makes it that much more harder… and the people wait…and wait… and wait hoping that their representatives represent their interest when in reality, with few exceptions on both sides, they are beholden to special interest groups who can give the most money…
.. now to hop onto my next subject of issue..
Prisons, .. America now houses more of its citizens than any country on earth, America spends more on its prisons than it does on its schools.
In California we learned that they spend nearly 50K per year per inmate … vs just around 9000 on each student in the public school system. … nationally America spends around 40K per inmate, and around 10K per year, per student [which is gathered when you look at the census of kids of school ages, then add federal and state spending on education and divided by kids of school ages…]
This is a great tragedy that what we spend on four Public school students per year… is equal to what we spend on ONE inmate on average per year [sadly and before anyone says my state spends this, this is an average, it takes what all states spend and then averages it out, so yes, the average will be higher than some smaller states]
We can reform our drug laws to decriminalize certain drugs, though I am for legalization of marijuana and decriminalization of all other drugs. Because as discussed in several pieces in my gallery, decriminalization, rather than sending someone to prison where they will more than likely still have access to their drug of choice it sends them to a drug treatment center which many studies have shown it costs less and has a higher success rate than prison..
But on the prison front, we should implement as many states have GED programs, trade classes etc because also many states have shown us that when you have these programs the recidivism rate goes down greatly. Many studies have shown us that if you get your GED in prison you are a lot less likely to return, if you pick up a trade in prison through a job program you almost never return to prison … and yet these programs are being cut why?
Not because they do not work, but because they claim it is not in the budget which experts says that is a lie because if these programs cut down recidivism rates, then they are in actuality saving you money… but the real reason is prison owners, … if you have less people coming to prison that is less money in their pockets which is why you have them donating millions of dollars to both sides of the isle to keep certain things illegal or to make penalties a bit stiffer.
Now I will discuss gay rights,
Would the greatest country in the world allow the rights of minority to be placed under the oppression of a majority vote? We tried this before… it failed. What if we allowed the rights of blacks to be voted on state by state… I would guess that half of the states would have not allowed desegregation, would not have allowed interracial marriage .. and gay rights are civil rights .
Finally I will discuss education,
When America invested heavily in education, as far as per student and overall, you saw lower cases of poverty, you saw less people on governmental programs, you saw the American job market booming, you saw a strong middle class,… as we cut education more and more you see rises in poverty, you see more people dependent on government programs, you see the jobs being shipped at faster rates overseas because of the cheap labor and inability of our force to do the jobs..
I am sure I will get the but we spend more on education which for the unenlightened person will go yeah but yea… um, OF COURSE we spend more on education than we did 20 years ago, there are about 20 million new students going to school so of course you will see an increase in spending.
Charter schools: While many are proponents of charter schools I am not.
Why are charter schools so good? BECAUSE they are doing what experts have been telling public schools to do for decades:
Small Class sizes, a wider array of subjects..
But whenever we., people ask state/federal funds to renovate every school to try and allow for smaller class sizes .. it has to be put up to a congressional vote and with politics since the 80s being so stagnated and partisan nothing gets done.
I personally am of the view that no nation is number 1, because we will have to look at individual things to see which nation does this or that better. Yet if a nation wishes to call it else the number 1 nation in the world, yet lacks or falls behind many nations on the social and economic front of its people then I am unsure how a nation can earnestly state such. Every nation or all people within nations like to say MY COUNTRY IS THE GREATEST, okay but by what measure of greatness are they measuring by? I say again, America is a great country, no one, or rather I do not discount that and its ability or the possibility at which it can be better - but I am just not one of the view of AMERICA NUMBER ONE!!!! .. because there are great social and economic issues at which this country must address before I ascribe it to that, but others, as with all things will have their view.
Everyone will have their view on this, that is fine by me. It is no skin off my back if someone wants to go around running WE'RE NUMBER ONE!!!!!! NUMBER ONE!!! Have at it, I am just asking how can we address things within our society, at which we have the ability to change but seemingly, either because our politicians do not want to, or the people have not been risen to care enough about this or that subject to try and change it. That is what I focus on to be honest, I have been around this beautiful world a number of times, so I just focus on what is ailing a society, and how best can we fix it and address that issue without the constant what I call "International dick swinging contests".
So, in closing, America has the ability to be the greatest country in the world if that is one's aim., I believe we do have the ability to address the issues within our society, and the means to do so but until we set aside the partisan bickering, the special interest, the secret political donations etc… then we will only go down a further and further road of what we have now…
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Random Quotes writing this made me think of:
"It is only by setting out on just principles that men are trained to be just to each other; and it will always be found, that when the rich protect the rights of the poor, the poor will protect the property of the rich."
-Thomas Paine
“'Tis the business of little minds to shrink; but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death.”
-Thomas Paine
“I view things as they are, without regard to place or person; my country is the world, and my religion is to do good.”
-Thomas Paine
"If you want to make enemies, try to change something."
-Woodrow Wilson
"Happiness lies in the joy of achievement and the thrill of creative effort."
-Franklin D. Roosevelt
"Our American values are not luxuries but necessities—not the salt in our bread, but the bread itself. Our common vision of a free and just society is our greatest source of cohesion at home and strength abroad—greater than the bounty of our material blessings."
-Jimmy Carter
"Recognizing and confronting our history is important. Transcending our history is essential. We are not limited by what we have done, or what we have left undone. We are limited only by what we are willing to do."
-George W. Bush
"Whoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute master of all industry and commerce.
-James Garfield
"You can fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time."
-Abraham Lincoln
"One man with courage is a majority."
-Thomas Jefferson
"Above all, tell the truth."
-Grover Cleveland
"I offer nothing more than simple facts, plain arguments, and common sense."
-Thomas Paine
[My favorite founding father and one of the most underappreciated founders]
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Credits and Additions:
Songs listened to while typing
Check out my hippie playlist atheosemanon.deviantart.com/ar…
Collection of Artists: We are the world: www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzDCBg…
Yusuf Islam: Peace Train: www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlHOV5…
^^one of my favorite songs… probably listen to it too much…
Bernice Johnson Reagon: Ella’s song: www.bernicejohnsonreagon.com/ number 7 on the playlist
Tracy Chapman: Talking about a revolution: www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rZbvi…
Nina Simone: I wish I knew how it would feel to be free: www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TarrS…
Lyle Lovett : If I had a boat: www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtHYzc…
^^Don’t ask me why this song, since I saw “The Interpreter” and Sean Penn kept playing it this song stays stuck in my head now..
While I am an atheist, this is my favorite “Christmas” song:
Stevie Wonder: Someday at Christmas: www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZ1-du…
Other pieces to check out:
Anti-American Me: atheosemanon.deviantart.com/ar…
Not fiscally conservative, fiscally pragmatic atheosemanon.deviantart.com/ar…
Leftist Pragmatism vs. Rightist Idealism atheosemanon.deviantart.com/ar…
My political ideologies: atheosemanon.deviantart.com/ar…
Liberals and gun ownership: atheosemanon.deviantart.com/ar…
Why socialism? atheosemanon.deviantart.com/ar…
Pure socialism vs democratic socialism atheosemanon.deviantart.com/ar…
Gay Rights:
Gay rights in America I: atheosemanon.deviantart.com/ar…
Gay rights in America II: atheosemanon.deviantart.com/ar…
Debate with an “ex gay” Christian convert: atheosemanon.deviantart.com/ar…
Gay is the New Black. my opinion: atheosemanon.deviantart.com/ar…
Influence map: atheosemanon.deviantart.com/ar…
An atheist on theism & atheism: atheosemanon.deviantart.com/ar…
Declaration of truth: atheosemanon.deviantart.com/ar…
What it means to be an atheist: atheosemanon.deviantart.com/ar…
Atheist leftist answers your questions...:
atheosemanon.deviantart.com/ar…
An atheist debates an atheist on theism: atheosemanon.deviantart.com/ar…
Abortion pieces:
[main piece] Abortion: atheosemanon.deviantart.com/ar…
Abortion stamp 1: atheosemanon.deviantart.com/ar…
Abortion stamp 2: atheosemanon.deviantart.com/ar…
Check my gallery for other pieces.
As always comrades,
Let knowledge be that truth, which portrays humanity, condemns malevolence; that respects the differences in others while abandoning the hatred and misconceptions of the past.
-Emanon
Related content
Comments: 1102
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I'm just going to assume this is trolling, because America is number 1.
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in military spending, yes, one of the highest poverty rates in industrialized countries yes, largest prison population than any other country, yes.
but on a barometer of long term high esteem, eh...
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We spend the most on our military and we also have the best military, we have a high poverty rate because we don't get free money like in socialist countries and we have the largest prison population because we actually put bad people away instead of letting them roam free. Our high esteem is pretty well earned.
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"We spend the most on our military and we also have the best military"
You can spend less on your military and still have the best military .. especially since we spend more than the next 9 countries combined, most of them our allies so hmm
"we have a high poverty rate because we don't get free money like in socialist countries"
well we are a mixed market economy like many other countries, just what public institutions we choose are usually lacking but as Churchill said
"You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else."
Winston Churchill
America appears to still be on the "everything else" phase.
"we have the largest prison population because we actually put bad people away instead of letting them roam free"
Define "bad people"
almost half of our federal prisoners are nonviolent drug offenders, and nearly 25-35% of state prisons are nonviolent drug offenses
www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03…
our stability of the dollar is earned.. our esteem needs work.. looks at the beautiful people of Yemen and that famine...
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Small pointer, don't use Huffpo, don't pull a CNN and use a site that has been proven time and again to be fake and biased
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Can you cite what in that particular post was false?
Huffpost has many writers, saying some writers have been proven to speak falsely does not debunk the claims made in that particular piece.
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What happens if multiple countries turn on us at once and we think its best to have strength left over when the war is over? And we are not the same as the socialist countries, so I don't know what you mean. And are you suggesting that you want people to drug themselves nonstop in this country?
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"What happens if multiple countries turn on us at once and we think its best to have strength"
You can be strong without needing such a large military budget, especially with some of the issues being those no bid contracts...
" And we are not the same as the socialist countries"
I spoke nothing of the "Same" I spoke of us all being mixed market economics
"nd are you suggesting that you want people to drug themselves nonstop in this country?"
I am saying that if you are addicted to drugs then rehab, not prison is where you should be,
I am saying America should have learned that prohibition did not work when we tried it with alcohol and yet we turned right around and did it with drugs.. which do nothing but strengthen gangs as it did the mob, which does nothing but increase violence as people fight over this or that area, etc.
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Do you have sources to back all this up?
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
I linked you to the Huff Post piece of percentages of prisoners..
Here are links to no bid contracts
www.huffingtonpost.com/news/no…
www.defenseone.com/business/20…
www.halliburtonwatch.org/about…
www.politifact.com/truth-o-met…
what specific things would you like sources for?
That rehab has a higher success rate than prisons for getting people off drugs?
www.justicepolicy.org/uploads/…
www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/…
www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-howa…
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
You may have proven your point that America has flaws that other countries don't, but which countries don't have these problems and have still accomplished everything America has? My point wasn't that America does everything better than every country, it was that America is number 1.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
It was not about whether or not other countries have or do not have these flaws, it is about waving the unearned proclamation of being number 1, and the things we are number 1 in (highest prison population, largest military spending, one of the highest poverty rates in the Western industrialized world, number 1 in bankruptcies due to medical bills) are not things at which a country would, or should be proud of.
"My point wasn't that America does everything better than every country, it was that America is number 1."
I am well aware of your premise of America being number 1, I asked or rather you have yet to provide objective reasoning for that claim nor mark upon what is being compared of the "number 1" proclamation to be true
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Wealthiest, strongest military, only country to have walked on the moon, first to use electricity. Just to name a few.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
That would shows it is a great country
the mantle of number one must also take into account your people.. yes America is richest country ..we also have one of the highest poverty rates of the industrialized world... how does one rectify or rather compare these two to the number 1 mantle? to be the richest and also have one of the highest poverty rates of the industrialized Western world?
First to use electricity is a great feat, but in a comparative chart to contemporary number 1 is most likely not to make the list.
Strongest military is a great thing, but how do you treat your veterans once the war is over? more suicides of vets than almost any other nation and of course due to our healthcare system one of the longest waiting periods for mental health and not to mention costs for that help ..
Saying America is not number 1 is not negating that it is a great nation.. it is questioning the self appointed position of greatest and then ask not to be contrasted on merits
am off in 3 mins, anything else will be addressed in the morning, have a good evening
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
To me it seems like you think it's more important for no one to be left behind than for the country to be better as a whole. While I can respect that point of view, my point of view is that the strong and smart have success and the weak and dumb don't. The weak and dumb need to be sacrificed if you wish for a better nation. If it weren't for things like Darwinism and survival at the fittest, we wouldn't exist.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
"To me it seems like you think it's more important for no one to be left"
It seems that way by my not saying that?
"han for the country to be better as a whole"
Can you be better as a whole where half of your country makes what amounts to a poverty wage of less than 30K a year? according to the 2014 SS administration where 51% of Americans made less than 30K a year. www.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/netcomp.cg… (40% of Americans made less than 20K a year)
Can you be better as as a whole when 1 in 6 American households have food insecurity? that is 15% of households with food insecurity? www.cnbc.com/2016/12/13/americas-dirty-little-secret-42-million-are-suffering-from-hunger.html
Can you be better as a whole, when the costs for your healthcare are far in excess than any industrialized nation, where your people have to choose between dying or going deep in debt for a needed surgery?
www.theatlantic.com/business/a…
knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/ar…
thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog…
There comes a time when a system's professed greatness must be questioned.. you wave the banner of AMERICA NUMBER 1 and yet when critiqued, when asked that you give an objective critique of the professed system of greatness you then cannot provide a basis for your claim on the system as it pertain to its people, as Jefferson and Paine wrote extensively, these are the measures at which we judge a nation by.
" While I can respect that point of view, my point of view is that the strong and smart have success and the weak and dumb don't."
So you believe 51% of this country is weak and dumb?
in the last year alone, one year there have been 233 new billionaires and yet economic in equality has increased.. do you believe these people are dumb? Weak perhaps since in such a system the powerful often buy the politicians to protect them through law which would never be allowed through discussion..
"The weak and dumb need to be sacrificed if you wish for a better nation."
So we should sacrifice those 42,000,000 people who have food insecurity?
We should sacrifice those millions of elderly people whose social security are not truly following cost of living.
We should sacrifice proclamations of being the land of the free while having the largest prison population on earth.
"If it weren't for things like Darwinism and survival at the fittest, we wouldn't exist."
www.dictionary.com/browse/soci…
www.businessdictionary.com/def…
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_D…
Social darwinism has been discredited because it assumes everyone starts on or goes through the same things and those better to adapt will succeed..sadly in such a system is not what we have, what we have is a system at which systemic and systematic issues on sex, race, economic and social deviations of justice has never fully been addressed and then we have some who then wave the banner of greatness and then cannot critique their idealism.
Now, am I saying America is not a great nation, no, nowhere in the piece did it state such.. yet you wave the banner of GREATEST then you better have something to back that up with.. saying you are rich and have a strong military and in your "Reasoning" of greatness speak nothing to the condition of your people is truly a fool's errand and a imbecilic view of the term greatest in terms of nations.
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To be honest, it wouldn't surprise me at all if 51% of the population is dumb. There are a lot of idiots out there and most of them aren't even very nice people. You can call me racist, sexist or whatever, but like it or not, science has proven that races have different average IQs. Caucasians and Asians are the smartest and blacks are the dumbest. You can't even accuse me of trying to make myself look better than others because I just admitted that Asians are the up there with me and I'm not Asian, I'm just going by pure science. iq-research.info/en/page/avera… Men are smarter than women too. www.breitbart.com/big-governme… I think we can agree that there's more than just racism and sexism that plays a role in why so many black people are in prison and why so few women are doing great things. These are the kind of facts no one likes to accept, but exist nonetheless. Also, I hope you do realize that when they look at the wealth of rich people, they often count the values of the businesses they run. So if I owned Walmart, they would add the value of Walmart to how much I'm worth, even though Walmart is something that benefits more people than just me. My grandfather is "worth" 9 million dollars, but if you take away everything that exists in the form of his businesses in one way or another, he only has way less than a million all for himself. Being in charge of something that benefits many people isn't the same as having something all for yourself, but I guess most middle-class citizens don't understand that. I seem to remember seeing something that said there isn't a single person in the world who has a billion dollars in cash, but maybe I'm wrong.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
From your first link.. what do you know, America does not have the highest IQ so I guess that is yet another thing we are not number 1 in .
Though it is no secret poverty is linked to intelligence and as such, the most impoverished areas on earth are likely to have some of the least educated people on earth.
"I think we can agree that there's more than just racism and sexism that plays a role in why so many black people are in prison"
It is funny, I spoke of America having the largest prison population and spoke nothing of the race of the people in prison and yet you latched on solely to the blacks in prison .. very telling and very interesting.
Actually when they speak of the richest people, they speak of their net worth, plus stocks, not adding on what Walmart makes.
What I loved most about your comment is WROTE so much yet you said actually very little
I asked you simply, when you wave the banner of America is the GREATEST country on earth, I asked that you give an objective reasoning behind it and yet in your entire piece, you spoke of the intelligence of people and not .. I repeat not anything to do with making your case for America which I found particularly very telling in that you are seemingly attempting to move away from your claim by not even trying to make the case for it.
So, in your reply I hope you make the case, at which thus far you are, to be blunt, doing a very poor job at making your case.
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After all this arguing, I'm curious to know, which country do you think is number 1 anyway?
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I do not think any nation is "number 1" though very few other nations claim to be WE ARE NUMBER 1.. as America does.
I think certain countries do better in healthcare, education, economic mobility, administration of politics, etc
but if a country boasts itself as being number 1.. it better damn well be able to back that up.
You believe America is number 1, yet you cannot articulate what makes it number 1.. surely simply being rich and a strong military while also having some of the highest poverty rates, the only industrial nation where people go bankrupt over medical needs, the only nation where the debt of your citizens for education is higher than credit card are something that would put meaningful dents in the claim of NUMBER 1!.. from a reasonable individual that is.
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Could you give an example of a country you think is better than America?
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am heading out now, any follow ups will be addressed tonight or tomorrow when I return.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
In which respects?
I said I do not think any country is BEST
Now, if you are asking what countries does healthcare, you can simply look up healthcare ranks by country
www.bloomberg.com/news/article…
www.forbes.com/forbes/welcome/…
www.usnews.com/news/best-count…
If you mean education you can look up education ranks by country
rankingamerica.wordpress.com/c…
www.usnews.com/news/best-count…
fairreporters.net/world/the-be…
kliwo.com/2017/03/07/20-best-e…
^mind you, America used to always be in the top five of science,. math and reading and now we are in upper 20s and lower 30s in many rankings
If you mean economic mobility
www.epi.org/publication/usa-la…
www.nationalreview.com/corner/…
inequality.stanford.edu/sites/…
Sadly this generation, is expected to do worse than the former generation
so which measures, I have already links you to prison and military stats previously, are you asking of?
since I am not of a black and white view, and have traveled to dozens of countries around this planet, by which metrics are you speaking of in terms of "better"
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I know you said that you don't think any country is the best, but I just expected you to have some sort of an example of a better country since you claim America isn't the best. I find it kind of silly how people place such a value on what percentage of a country is educated when most people only need a basic education. Do you need to know about science and history to be a cashier or sweep floors? No, you don't. So there is no need to educate them and it's a waste of money. Even if they wanted to know things just out of curiosity, they could always just buy some books. Plus, most people forget what they're taught a few months after they learn it anyway. Health care that's harder to access is also a great means of Darwinism. And we could get our economy rolling again, liberals just need to stop giving people free money and make them work. We're slowly becoming more like the rest of the developed world and America is starting to lag behind on some things because Americans are best at doing things their own way.
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It matters a great deal what percentage of a country is educated because that therefore extrapolates to the economic power of said country as well as the science, technologically and socioeconomic advancements of a country. Education is, as Howard Zinn told us and as many great mind going back thousands of years tells us is the greatest force to thrust a society forward.
"Do you need to know about science and history to be a cashier or sweep floors? No, you don't."
No, but if your economic station in life is to propel yourself forward then I would imagine, your life goal is not in the sweeping of floor or being a cashier.
" So there is no need to educate them and it's a waste of money"
Which "them"? cashiers and janitors?
So the social stagnation of set limit would limit the mobility and economic and social progress of your nation. There is a reason why America was one of the hardest hit countries during the global recession, because many other nations had certain banking and regulations that we once had with Glass Steagall and other social safety nets as such did not hit their middle classes vs in America where millions of people saw their life savings merely evaporated.. we made sure to bail out the banks but gave the finger to the little guy whereas other countries increased their social safety nets, went after and in many cases jailed those bankers for their practices of lying to people to sell them high risk mortgages.
"Plus, most people forget what they're taught a few months after they learn it anyway"
You allow for the ease of access to education, because that is the easy of clarity of social mobility. Ask yourself or wonder why when during the 1950s, 1960s etc colleges and thus middle class mobility were far more stable than today .. vs oday where the cost of college and university is thousands of times more than what it was then yet far above the cost of inflation of the dollar..as such you have a nation where your education debt is geater than your credit card debt and I would have hoped.. though sadly disappointed that you would have a better idea than.. JUST DO NOT EDUCATE THEM.. if you accept substandard education system then you shall continue down the drain.
"Health care that's harder to access is also a great means of Darwinism. And we could get our economy rolling again, liberals just need to stop giving people free money and make them work. We're slowly becoming more like the rest of the developed world and America is starting to lag behind on some things because Americans are best at doing things their own way."
I assume you have not taken a socioeconomic class, or studied global governments and world governmental policy or you would know how.. to be blunt that marks the showing of a great ignorance America pays far more for healthcare than any other industrialized nation and yet is the only industrialized nation to not provide healthcare as a right ..
tell me, in the last great expansion of your healthcare system was a mandate that made you buy not government healthcare, but private health insurance.. "free stuff" on the private market marks upon great ignorance in understanding of the sstem.
We are also not slowly becoming more and more like the rest since the rest of the developed world, in the West are far ahead of us in understanding the modernization of infrastructure, far ahead in understanding the importance of providing quality education, understanding the importance of addressing the social grievances and issues that plague their country.. No one says they do it perfectly and in every system you can certain find points of reform.. but you must first thing big.. not just talk big and then spout that which has been tried and has not yet given us the results at which they claim would come.
"America is starting to lag behind on some things because Americans are best at doing things their own way."
Lagging behind is putting it mildly when 42 million people have food insecurity that is more than a mere lagging behind
when the"land of the free" has the largest prison population than any other nation earth that is more than mere lagging behind
I say again, no has has said that America is not a great country and has the ability and the economic means to be even better, I question the issue of GREATEST COUNTRY ON EARTH at which thus far, the premise has not yet been made.
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Cashiers and janitors were just examples, I meant ANY simple job like that. People forget the things they're taught in free public schools in as little as a few months also, it's not really so much as the information being hard to access, it's just people have bad memories for things they don't care about or need. Education systems force people to learn things they don't need to know for no reason and waste their money. Why the hell does someone who wants to study for computer programming need to learn chemistry? That same faulty logic carries across just about every form of school. And Trump will hopefully remove the mandate that everyone must have health insurance and we can go back to simply only giving it to those who are success enough to pay for it.
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The point of a simple job and on that usually does not require much education such as a janitor, - for a cashier not as much since , at least the stores I have been to, you must also be good at math in case the machines go down and you have to calculate that stuff with the taxes in your head.. but generally no one's end goal is to be a janitor, or a cashier, you use these positions as you are in school, or what have you to increase your education and as such seek higher levels of position at which would then require more education, --as such the idea of one having a simple job should mean we should not educate them marks upon a great issue to keep people as low to their social positions as possible.
The issue is not only the schools, it is how America does schooling that needs a great reform as well, which i why I continuously mentioned and linked above to education reforms.
Necessity of intelligence is vital to human development, sure you may not need to or generally want to learn about other systems of government, what some philosopher said 3,000 years ago, what this ancient African tribe did 10,000 years ago, etc.. but knowledge is not stream based, in that your education is not I Want to be A so I will ONLY study A.. no education system in the world would look at early development and think that be a good idea.
Think of education as a rock in water.. if you want to go expand your mind would you start by throwing a big rock in the water and thus just sink,.. or would you start your mind off smaller and smaller amounts of things and then learn more and more each new step becoming easier because you took the necessary precautions of taking the time to prepare your mind to take on more an dmore.
" That same faulty logic carries across just about every form of school."
Your statement was not a logical statement to be of a faulty logic, you go to a school for the curriculum and say what classes you want, but most colleges do want you, as you should want yourself to have a basic understanding of the STEM subjects which are Science, Technology, Engineering and Math
American students especially are greatly behind many other countries especially in the Science and Math field.. where once we were always in the top 5, we are now in the upper 20s and lower 30s...
you want your society to be scientifically advanced, that does not happen by foregoing science classes. - at which chemistry is but one class.
.. even in "Trump care" the mandate was not much removed.
Why? because the mandate was a conservative idea from the start, written in 1989 by the heritage foundation and had conservative economists like Milton Friedman at the top advocating for it..
"we can go back to simply only giving it to those who are success enough to pay for it."
So your goal is to go back to a system where almost 50K of your fellow Americans die every year because they cannot afford needed healthcare...
If this is the future you yearn for, then it is a future that further pushes America away from its ability to do better.
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I'm pretty sure the math needed for being a cashier when you're doing the the math yourself doesn't go beyond basic levels like addition, subtraction, multiplication and division. Of course I believe everyone should be taught that. Chemistry was just an example I used of something not everyone needs to know, not the only subject that not everyone needs to know. And you save money by only teaching some people instead of teaching everyone. Give or take, some people always have to be doing the simple jobs. So why not just have some people that do them for life? I'm certain there are many people too dumb or too lazy to be desired to have move any higher unless it's a last resort. People are already taught the stems of subjects in free public school, if they already have no interest in it, why continue it through college? Getting to the healthcare part, yes, most humans, being hard-wired to look after each other feel bad when they hear of 50k people a year dying when they could be saved, but saving people without success or intelligence is bad practice of Darwinism and letting weak genes be passed on is a violation of nature. Those people are already living very hard lives, why save them so they can only continue to live those hard lives and have more children who will probably live those hard lives as well, why not just let them die peacefully?
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"I'm pretty sure the math needed for being a cashier when you're doing the the math yourself doesn't go beyond basic levels like addition, subtraction, multiplication and division."
Yes, but it also requires learning them in a manner that if a customer has 20 items, you must be able to ..dollars to cents remember and add on, then add the necessary taxes upon.. then apply, if need be the discounts on this or that item all in a short period as to not also keep the business, of business going.
" Of course I believe everyone should be taught that."
But your previous premise seeming spoke of the opposite.
"Chemistry was just an example I used of something not everyone needs to know, not the only subject that not everyone needs to know. And you save money by only teaching some people instead of teaching everyone"
You actually lose money, when you have an uneducated society, you then have a society that live on low level positions, as such you have a nation that becomes a service based style economy .. you therefore have more people on public assistance, you have more health issues because they can only afford food at which is generally not the healthiest, you then have a society of impoverished persons while you only care for the very least, the very wealthy
"Give or take, some people always have to be doing the simple jobs"
Yes, but if your goal is simply.. well they cannot afford a basic education so why bother teaching them.. then that tells me you want your nation to fail..
You should go look up why Jefferson pushed so hard for public institutions of health of a society.
Go back and read his writings on the advancement of a society is tied directly to the education of its citizens.. not just wealthy ones or ones that could afford it thus he tried to get public schools open in Virginia.
"So why not just have some people that do them for life?"
tell me, in a land of freedom how can you make people do the same job for life?
"'m certain there are many people too dumb or too lazy to be desired to have move any higher unless it's a last resort."
you are the blind man with his hand on the elephant, thinking that is all what you have your hand on.
You do not promote an educational system based on "some people" will be lazy.. yes, some people would, and if they do not take advantage of the opportunities afforded to them then so be it.. you plan your society for the majority of those that do want to learn, that do want the bare necessities of life vs your idea of basically ..fuck em.
"ople are already taught the stems of subjects in free public school, if they already have no interest in it, why continue it through college?"
very few elementary schools have engineering classes, and very few teach advanced science and math
I truly ask you sir, have you actually studied the subject or is it just a held belief at which you do not feel worthy of even looking into?
"Getting to the healthcare part, yes, most humans, being hard-wired to look after each other feel bad when they hear of 50k people a year dying when they could be saved, but saving people without success or intelligence is bad practice of Darwinism and letting weak genes be passed on is a violation of nature. Those people are already living very hard lives, why save them so they can only continue to live those hard lives and have more children who will probably live those hard lives as well, why not just let them die peacefully?"
and yet America has one of the highest poverty rates, your middle class has slower mobility than any other western nation, the intelligence of your people .. you seem satisfied being in the 20s and 30s.. which makes me question do you believe America is the greatest or are you hard set to make sure it is the dumbest?
Who determines what is "success" or potential? some of the greatest minds this country has ever had grew up dirt poor, but were given half a chance and excelled.. if your grand plan is just forget em, they are worthless which is basically what you are saying when you say just let em die... is antithetical to social progression.. and clearly you have not studied social darwinism to understanding adaptation based upon similar surroundings vs systemic and systematic issues that you refuse to address and just throw up your hands and would rather not try to address em..
So let poor people die because they have hard lives is the future you want for America?... and this is the view of "greatest" you ascribe to your ideal?
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I never said we should force people to do the same job their whole life long, I just said that we don't need to push for them to change if they don't have more to offer. I said "have", not "force". There's a big difference between having some service jobs and having too many of them. Yes, I am a republican, but I don't agree with everything they say blindly. For example, I'm not against gay marriage or breast-feeding in public. I did say that we should give everyone a basic education, but I think we both have different definitions of "basic". Advanced science and math? You'll already know if you like either subject just from doing the basic levels. I will agree with you if you think basic engineering should be taught in free public school, but I think a tiny little flaw like that hardly sets America back in the big picture. Being in the 20s or 30s is fine if it's just the average person, only important people need to be working with something as big as science. I still support Darwinism, stop trying to guilt trip me with it. I'm hoping to see this country improve with the republicans in charge.
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"I never said we should force people to do the same job their whole life long, I just said that we don't need to push for them to change if they don't have more to offer"
It is not pushing, pushing implies force.. whereas my option and the option of every link above on higher education gave a choice.. you offer them such and if they do not take it then that is on them.. vs your way of .. basically who cares - -then the question arises, how do you determine one's potential if you are doing away with the challenges to elevate them?
"There's a big difference between having some service jobs and having too many of them."
When over 50% of the jobs since the recession are service based jobs, you must address what the issue is.. This nation cannot suffice as a service based economy, and still expect the economic stability of the dollar to remain.. but then the question comes what will you do to change that? Your idea seeming is nothing.. a juvenile like understanding of social darwinism seeming from someone who has never taken a sociology class and studied the subject in depth.
" Yes, I am a republican, but I don't agree with everything they say blindly. For example, I'm not against gay marriage or breast-feeding in public. "
I am not in a political party and often find partisanship useless... though the issue with the Party, and I am sure you know are well beyond merely same sex marriage and breast feeding in public.
"I did say that we should give everyone a basic education, but I think we both have different definitions of "basic"."
Yeah we do, basic for me is an education at which would prepare them for the future.. basic for you is well you have not said. You have to ask yourself why these nations are far ahead of us in STEM subjects
america was once always in the top five in these subjects and now we are in the 20s and 30s.. what was one of the greatest changes, education wise over the decades? the cost ... and you have to ask yourselve, if you are a reasonable individual, what impact does this have on a country when its people are not being education properly or afforded a basic level higher education as we used to do as a nation.
"Advanced science and math? You'll already know if you like either subject just from doing the basic levels."
I see that went over your head, advanced levels as given at the college level comparative to elementary levels of math and science.. not advanced in degree of making you learn quantum physics and multidimensional mathematical equations..
"I will agree with you if you think basic engineering should be taught in free public school, but I think a tiny little flaw like that hardly sets America back in the big picture."
I did not say it was just that, America must address key things, its education, its healthcare and its social standards.. we barely have scratched either.
"Being in the 20s or 30s is fine if it's just the average person,"
average person? It is ranking the country .. Have you even studied the subject, come on now?
" only important people need to be working with something as big as science. "
The science field is an intellectual field, that does not mean your citizens should have some basic understandings of the subject
"I still support Darwinism, stop trying to guilt trip me with it. I'm hoping to see this country improve with the republicans in charge."
It is not a guilt trip to see a man has not studied a subject he claims to support..
tell me, truly, what sociology classes have you taken, and your understanding of darwinism and common variables of adaptations.
you are seemingly an individual that supports something at which going by your words you have not actually studied other than a mere rudimentary understanding of the subject
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We can see if someone is worth teaching more difficult things based on how well they do in free public school. Over 50% of jobs are service jobs? Doesn't surprise me at all, service jobs make up a big part of a nation in this day and age. You sound like a democrat in case you didn't realize before. You say that 20s and 30s is the ranking of this country, but how was that conclusion drawn? Based on what our elite know or based on what the average person knows about science?
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"We can see if someone is worth teaching more difficult things based on how well they do in free public school."
So you have not studied the issue. I would have thought if someone was going to speak on an issue they would have studied it.. simply looking at school grades alone as the sole measure of potential is a fool's errand on measuring potential on one factor.
"Over 50% of jobs are service jobs? Doesn't surprise me at all, service jobs make up a big part of a nation in this day and age."
It is not meant to surprise you, it is meant to speak facts, that of your claims that America is the greatest you have continuously not offered a sound premise for said claim.
"You sound like a democrat in case you didn't realize before."
Sounding like something at which does not denote an ideological leaning is illogical. Democrat is a political Party, it does not denote ideology or world view.
I am an unapologetic liberal, and an unapologetic progressive..and have studied world governments and governmental policy for well over a decade.
"You say that 20s and 30s is the ranking of this country, but how was that conclusion drawn?"
That conclusion is drawn by looking at the education system, graduation rates, how many are prepared for higher education, how many are ready for a position in their field.. like do you even read citations? I cited the schools above, several links, 3 I believe which told how they concluded their measures.
"Based on what our elite know or based on what the average person knows about science?"
based on the entirety of your society..
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I didn't know that you wanted me to read the entire articles, all you said was that it was your source for saying that America isn't number 1 in education, not explaining how the process is carried out. There were also 4, not 3. "Based on the entirety of your society"? So in other words, the average person. Only the elite in intelligence can do significant things in science, so only they really matter in how well a country does as a whole. Some random person walking down the street knowing facts doesn't do anything for the country if they aren't putting it to good use. I believe that you can use how well someone does in grade school to assess their potential. Even if it's something almost anyone can learn, see how fast they learn it.
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It is 8:26 PM now, I must be heading out and will address any other comments tomorrow morning/afternoon depending when I get on
Well if one cites an article it is meant to give you better understanding of the subjects.. To conclude and what has been said and show that there is a basis for its merits, especially since several of those links and studies were done by some of the most prestigious universities not just in America but around the world when studying the link between poverty, education, social mobility and social national stability - - which once again, to belabor the point why Thomas Jefferson thought publicly funded education was a good thing. But good things cannot just stand on their own without reforms to see what is working, what is not working (a major thing not working is our class sizes which is not seen at many industrialized nations)
The citation explained the process.. but if you want even longer comments explaining the entirety of a thing rather than simple detailed links which would be quicker for you to read, simply say so.
" There were also 4, not 3."
So you had 4 citations and you did not look at any of em to see how it was measured? ...shakes head.
""Based on the entirety of your society"? So in other words, the average person."
average generally implies median, they did not just look at the average grades, they looked the entirety of how America institutes its educations system, and how it addresses systemic and systematic issues that arise in every society.
" Only the elite in intelligence can do significant things in science"
Yes, but most people are not looking for Master' degrees in chemistry nor does any college make you receive that level of chemistry when that is not your major.. you are given introductory levels to chemistry the mere basics as basis for your credits for that course.
"so only they really matter in how well a country does as a whole. "
... that statement showed me you have not studied the issue, if only the highly intelligent matter in a society then you forego the issues of everyone else.. and as such leads to worse off society but if that is your ideal.. one I hope would never be,where only the elites of a a society mattes, go for it.
"Some random person walking down the street knowing facts doesn't do anything for the country if they aren't putting it to good use"
but you said or proclaim AMERICA IS NUMBER !
America is not just those rich elites.. as such if you equate only upper class as American and basically tell the rest to go fuck themselves.. then it would seem it s not America you think is number 1but only the ruling elites that reside in said society
"I believe that you can use how well someone does in grade school to assess their potential. Even if it's something almost anyone can learn, see how fast they learn it."
Potential is more than grades, for some students they tune out when not challenge which may result in lower grades until something challenges them, for others,,..for many, there are socioeconomic issues at which shows a correlation to lower grades, I am sure it is no grand surprise that if you look at the 42 million of your fellow citizens which lack food security, you will also find worse off schools and as such the lower of grades..
You assume similarity in opportunity and as such if one fails or succeeds it was all done on equal merits which further makes me question if you have ever taken a sociology class which would have covered social darwinism yet you claim to support that which you do not seem to have studied.
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Good night then, I'll look more into what you're saying about the importance of education tomorrow. But I will always be loyal to this country even if it isn't "number 1".
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yes it is u salty ho
usa
usa
usa
usa
just kidding I plan to leave this cesspool eventually. America can't be saved anymore, especially with Trump in office. I'm leaving before I accidentally get caught up in protest raids and mass shootings that have been going on
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I admit I am not of the OH NOES TRUMP view .. but people will do what they do.
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...nor before him as President and most likely not after him.
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Shrek is number 1 always and forever.
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haha, that was unexpected.
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How do people even become offended about this? I'm American, but we aren't #1 intrinsically, in anything. Education, egalitarianism or feminism, religious rights and persecution, racism and LGBT+ rights, and certainly not in terms of governmental status or debt...Sheesh, some assholes out there.
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I agree with you, but sadly several have gotten offended by this.. with all of he usual THEN LEAVE nonsense.
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