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inspiredcreativity — New Testament + Homosexuality
Published: 2010-02-22 15:20:01 +0000 UTC; Views: 17656; Favourites: 137; Downloads: 626
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This is a PDF Document. Click on the download arrow above to download the PDF document. It is Free to download and distribute, as long as you offer it for free.Please also see my paper: The Old Testament & Homosexuality at inspiredcreativity.deviantart.… .
Please Note: This paper does not question the words of God, Jesus, or the authors of the bible. What it does is show how those words have been mistranslated, misinterpreted, and taken out of historical, linguistic, and cultural context for more than two millennia.
The PDF has a HOT-LINKED Table of Contents and much more Information and References.
This is an in-depth look at how Jesus and the early Christian Church accepted Same-Sex Loving Relationships and Same-Sex Sex within the context of a committed relationship.
I hope that this helps some of you reconcile your Christian Faith with your Homosexuality or Bisexuality. For others, it will act as a handy guide to COUNTER Homophobic Christians who use Scriptures as a weapon against us.
________________________________________
In this paper, I often present multiple approaches and arguments for the passages in question. For example, translators have used the word Homosexual when no such word even existed when the scriptures were written. Translators of many modern printings have inserted words that are designed to inflame hatred.
Despite new correct translations, Bible publishers are under strong pressure to not go against traditional convention.
WORDS CAN KILL GBLT KIDS. There are Christians whose words drive GBLT CHILDREN TO THEIR DEATHS IN VERY LARGE NUMBERS. It may seem that the Christian Fundamentalists are harmless, but the poison and lies they spread do great harm. Since many of these Fundamentalist Christians believe that their Bigotry and Discrimination are Justified by the Bible, they could care less if they drive children to suicide. After all, they are doing "God's Work."
PLEASE NOTE: I wrote this paper to help people, not to generate religious arguments, debates, or hate attacks. This is not the proper forum for that. If you do not agree with this paper then it is your right to state that. However, I will not engage in counterarguments because the only thing homosexuals ever hear is the constant litany of lies of conservative fundamentalist Christians. Any attacking or Hate-based comments will be HIDDEN.
Matthew Barry ©2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2022
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Comments: 326
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While the author of this document did an astounding job in his reserch and included some very good infermation he also made some major errors that unless pointed out and delt with undermine the over all paper. In a scientific or historical paper it is crucial not to include statements of your own opinion and blatent fact especialy if they could be provocitive
I'd sugest changing them like this
I feel that For the Church to ignore the evidence in its own archives would be cowardly and deceptive. The evidence convincingly shows that what the modern church claims has always been its unchanging attitude towards homosexuality is, in fact, nothing of the sort.
I belive insetting on believe the Bible word for word isIGNORANT, intellectually lazy, wrong.
also I'd sugjust deliting the (my comments) protion
also if this document is incredebly long for everyday use
I request the authors promission to create a revised version for every day practical use credit will be given
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Hi, just wanted to let you know I will get to this soon. I am buried in tax work. Sorry for the delay.
Matthew
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Hi,
I did stick opinion in at the very end, like an editorial, but maybe I should just call it that.
Could you please reference which parts of the paper you think should be changed, by page number and paragraph, so that I can look them up?
Matthew
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I did i edited them then put back how they could be improved. mostley its just two parts
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You certainly have a right to your opinion, as do all people. We are obviously in disagreement. I respect your views and hope that you can respect mine.
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Well it’s not what they are the patron saints of.
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I know that I could give you a number of references as proof of what I said, and I am sure you could offer me a number of references proving your point. In the end, it all comes down to HOW ancient references are interpreted. You have stated your opinion as if it were fact when I could claim the that my position is fact. However, having actually done a lot of research into this subject, I can tell you that much of ancient history has no definitive fact-based truth because it has to rely on the subjective materials.
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en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergiu… .
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I am glad you know of the Liberal Catholic Church. Now many people know about this independent Catholic church that does pre-Vatican II Mass such as burning of incense, ect.
I attend one of their parishes in Colorado. And I'm LGBT.
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Hi, Thank you for your comment. I found the Liberal Catholic Church in a list of Christian churches that perform Gay Marriages and did not believe that homosexual sex was a sin when it happens within the confines of a Gay Marriage or a 'Romantic Loving Long-term Committed Relationship' (where gay marriage is not possible). I found the article LGBT Rights and the Liberal Catholic Church which shows emphatic support for the Sexual minority Community.
Can you verify for me that the Liberal Catholic Church does perform Gay Marriages and allows LGBT people to be clergy? It would give me more confidence when directing Sexual minority Christians to the Liberal Catholic Church.
My purpose in posting New Testament + Homosexuality , Old Testament + Homosexuality , and Sodom Destroyed on 6-29-3129BC was to help young Christian Sexual Minorities to reconcile their faith with their homosexual and/or gender nature.
I had wanted to become a Catholic priest, but just after turning 13 my priest told us altar boys, "Boys who are physically attracted to other boys are an abomination in the eyes of God, doomed to burn for an eternity in the everlasting fires of Gahanna." I could not understand it. I was simple, autistic, and I lived to be a good boy. I had not done anything to make these feeling for boys happen. God must have made me this way, so why would he hate me? I would kneel at my bedside praying, "Please God, make me Normal." Just before trying to kill myself, I lost all FAITH, and truly felt adrift and alone, a mere speck in a vast universe. When you look at the suicide rate for LGBT teens, and how many think about killing themselves but don't, you know that a big part of that is the bigotry of most Christian churches.
In America, 30% of ALL CHILDREN who attempt or succeed in killing themselves, are Gay, Bisexual, Lesbian, or Transgendered. 85% of ALL GBLT Youth have thought seriously about committing suicide. 50% of ALL boys who attempt or succeed in killing themselves are Gay or Bisexual.
EVERY YEAR, about 640,000 GBLT Kids as young as 12 years old, go onto the street, and 39% of those were thrown out of their homes after “Coming Out” or discovery of their homosexuality or bisexuality, because of conflicts with moral and religious values. The vast majority of those parents are Christians.
I grew up being told that my very existence was a mortal sin against God. I grew to hate myself, felt I was a bad person for being gay and had almost no sense of self-worth. I grew up in the 1950s to the 1970s. The Gay Community was underground then and Sexual Minority people were pretty universally hated around the world. Growing up a Sexual Minority. I was 11 years old when I realized that I felt about boys the way I am supposed to feel about girls. I was 19 before I knew what sex was and 20 when I found out what 'Gay' and 'Faggot' meant. I was 23 before I knew there was a Gay community. If you don't count rape, I was still a virgin then. My fantasies and dreams were not sexual since I had no idea what that would look like, so my fantasies and dreams were of holding another boy/man and kissing. At 11 years old, I was following around cute looking boys. I mention all of this to show that it all happened very naturally. There were no outside influences. Long before science proved that we are born LGBT I knew I had to have been born this way. I was raised in a strict Catholic family where the word 'sex' was never once uttered. I was kept very isolated by both my Autism and my family. I was not allowed to watch or go to movies until my late teens, at it was supervised.
Many younger American LGBT people think that the big fight is over for Equal Rights, but it is not. We still cannot adopt children as a married couple (only one of the couple can officially adopt. I was a foster parent with my partner, but I was the only official foster parent (two kids, 7 & 11). Some states it is almost impossible for Sexual Minority people to foster or adopt kids. There are still many Americans who hate Sexual Minority people, or who are intolerant. Discrimination goes on at all levels. Internationally, things are far worse, where Sexual Minorities face prison, the death penalty, torture and even being forced into have gender reassignment surgery (Iran's solution to homosexuality unless you have already been caught, in which case it is usually the death penalty. Therefore, please continue to carry the torch forward and work towards Sexual Minority rights, as your past generations have done.
Sorry for the long reply. I am very happy that you have a church where you feel safe and accepted. It is a gift I'm sure you appreciate because so many of those in our community do not have that gift.
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Old Catholic Church (AKA Union of Utrecht), who actually ordained a married gay bishop?
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There are actually two ordained openly Gay Bishops who were in same same-sex marriages at the time:
1. Bishop Gene Robinson became the first openly Gay bishop in the Episcopal church, in June of 2003, and was also in a same sex marriage with his husband.
2. Bishop Karen Oliveto became the first openly Gay bishop in the United Methodist Church, in 2016, and is also in a same sex marriage with her wife.
In 1934, the Episcopal Church entered full communion with the Old Catholic Churches in communion with the See of Utrecht, during the ratification of the Bonn Agreement of 1931.
In 1978, the Polish branch, the Polish National Catholic Church (PNCC) terminated this full communion agreement after the ordination of women in the Episcopal Church.
The Old Catholic Church of Austria approved the blessing of same-sex unions in 1998.
The Polish National Catholic Church (PNCC) disapproved the blessing of same sex unions in 2002 and "described homosexual practice as sinful." In 2003, the PNCC ceased to be in communion with the Archbishop of Utrecht and is no longer a member of the Old Catholic Churches of the Union of Utrecht.
ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH CATECHISM:
Even the Roman Catholic Catechism states that homosexuals are born homosexual, but then goes on to say that homosexual sex is still a sin and that God made them Homosexual as a test of their faith, and that they must remain celibate all their lives, which is not logical at all.
In reality, if God does not make mistakes, and if homosexuals are born homosexual, and homosexuality is encoded in the human genome, and it has always been this way consistently in human history, then this must be God’s intent and desire, and it is human bigotry that defies God’s intent and declares homosexuality a sin and discriminates against homosexuals.
When some Christian churches declare that homosexuality is NOT A SIN, they are not saying they approve of all homosexual sex, just as they do not approve of all heterosexual sex. Sex must be within the confines of marriage, or when that is not possible (such it being illegal), within a loving long-term relationship, where vows have been exchanged.
I hope this answered your questions.
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I see you have posted this in two places.
I already answered this for someone else, on this deviation page. I don't have time now to find all the relevant information, but a quick scan of The Catholic Catechism: Ministry to Persons with a Homosexual Inclination: Guidelines for Pastoral Care, I found these three passages:
1. A considerable number of people who experience same-sex attraction experience it as an inclination that they did not choose.
2. To the extent that a homosexual tendency or inclination is not subject to one’s free will, one is not morally culpable for that tendency.
3. While the Church teaches that homosexual acts are immoral, she does distinguish between engaging in homosexual acts and having a homosexual inclination. While the former is always objectively sinful, the latter is not. To the extent that a homosexual tendency or inclination is not subject to one’s free will, one is not morally culpable for that tendency. Consequently, the Church does not teach that the experience of homosexual attraction is in itself sinful.
I have discussed this issue extensively in the past and see no point in repeating it again and again.BORN HOMOSEXUAL:
The science is very clear now concerning proof of being born Gay. Every year sees more studies published. If you refuse to believe a large body of peer-reviewed published studies, then you must be a science denier. The earth is flat...
There is even a study I quoted here that found that the distinct brain differences found only in homosexuals are found already formed in the fetal stage of development, before birth. Some infants are born with homosexual brains. I could walk you through many other studies proving homosexuals are born homosexual, including specific genetics, but I have found that this is a waste of time with people who just discount science they do not like, or which contradicts their religious dogma. You should find some other proofs already discussed in various messages threads for this deviation.
Therefore, Homosexuality is indeed innate and immutable, as proven by science, repeatedly.
You have a real problem with Homosexuals being born Homosexual since God does not make mistakes and homosexuality is common in the animal kingdom and in humans. Therefore, homosexuality must be part of Gods design.
The purpose of my postings on homosexuality and Christianity is to help young people reconcile their faith with their homosexuality, rather than just abandoning their faith, due to people like you (your lies above) who abuse them and drive many to suicide, all in the name of God.
I have discussed issues of homosexuality and Christianity/Islam here many times with those of you who comment on my deviations and deviant art page. Unfortunately, these discussions quickly go to the person making homophobic attacks and personal attacks against me, causing me to have to ban the person and hide their attacks.
I will not engage with you in further discussion on this because it has been done again and again like a broken record, amongst my various postings. I don't have the time or inclination to attempt to rationally discuss issues with homophobic people.
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Hi, I did not see anything I said as hateful. I explained the constant homophobic attacks against me on DA, usually starting out using language like you did, which then descends into worse attacks. I used to try to discuss the issues rationally but would get insults, being told I am disgusting for being Gay, and that I would burn in hell, etc., etc. I choose not to waste my time on this anymore. It goes nowhere. I then went on to say I do not want to engage you further on the topic since there is no point in it. You are just one more of a very long line of Christians objecting to what I say about homosexuality and Christianity. I tell Sexual Minority people that engaging in homosexual sex when in the confines of a Gay marriage or loving long-term committed relationship, is not a sin, then explain why.
I tell Sexual Minority people that engaging in homosexual sex when in the confines of a Gay marriage or loving long-term committed relationship, is not a sin, then explain why. Obviously, many Christians disagree, but there are plenty of heterosexual Christians who agree with me, including some Christian churches. You can find a list (old) here:
New Testament + Homosexuality
When I say that people like you are killing children, it is because it is true. I have worked as a volunteer counselor to Sexual Minority Youth for some 26 years. I see firsthand the terrible damage done to kids and the suffering they live through, due to the homophobia of many (but not all) Christians and their churches. I tried to kill myself at age 13 after my priest told us altar boys, "Boys who are physically attracted to other boys are an abomination in the eyes of God, doomed to burn for an eternity in the everlasting fires of Gahanna." I had planned on being a priest.
You might check out
The Faces of Teen Suicide. In the USA, 30% of ALL CHILDREN who attempt or succeed in killing themselves, are Gay, Bisexual, Lesbian, or Transgendered. 50% of ALL boys who attempt or succeed in killing themselves are Gay or Bisexual. The cause is religious and homophobic bigotry and bullying. This includes church bullying
EVERY YEAR, about 640,000 LGBT Kids, as young as 12 years old, go onto the street, and 39% of those were thrown out of their homes after “Coming Out” or discovery of their homosexuality or bisexuality, because of conflicts with moral and religious values. The vast majority of those parents are Christians.
CHRISTIAN BIGOTS:
First, not all Christians are homophobic and some Christian churches are very accepting of Sexual Minority people and will even perform homosexual weddings, such as the Episcopal and Unitarian churches.
There is a difference between having a difference in beliefs and imposing your beliefs on others, then judging them, discriminating against them, sung offensive speech against them, physical violence and torture. Yes, Christians still imprison, torture and even kill homosexual around the world. American Christians and Christian churches, including the Catholic church, actively engaged in the torture of homosexuals, up through the 1990s. Some states have now made it against the law to use “Aversion Therapy” and other attempts to convert homosexual chicken to heterosexuals because it has been proven impossible. Even now, in some states, there are Christian camps and schools that use ammonia under the noses of homosexual children, to induce vomiting, while showing them homosexual pornography. They used to lobotomize homosexuals by going through an eye socket to scrape out the frontal lobe of the brain, turning them into human vegetables.
To learn more about the various Christian Tortures, see
The Torture Of Homosexuals This continued through the 19980s but was sharply declining in use in the 1990s.
When Christian churches and people actively work to deny sexual minority people equal human rights, and actively discriminate against these people, call them derogatory names, it is called Bigotry. When Christians and Muslims separate out a group of people to vilify, it is called bigotry. I realize that you will say that Christianity says that it is the homosexual sex they are against, not the people, but this it is NOT how it plays out in the real world, by both the churches and by individual Christians. This bigotry goes against Jesus’ Great Commandments.
GOD & JESUS DO NOT TELL ANYONE NOT TO BE HOMOSEXUAL:
Jesus never said a single word against homosexuality, despite his knowledge of it (he was around it in Judea (openly practiced by the Romans and Roman Garrison living there and seeing graphic homosexual graffiti on city walls). In Paul, the words translated as being homosexual are mistranslations of the Coptic Greek. The true translations of the words, from Coptic Greek, as shown in other Greek literature usages of the word-pair, prove this. Obviously, you disagree with this, so there is no point in discussing it. There is plenty of literature it, plus my own postings on it, covering both the Old and New Testaments.
MENTAL ILLNESS & HOMOSEXUALITY — CAUSED BY CHRISTIAN HATE & ABUSE:
This is typical of Christian bigots to use misinformation like this. Back in the 1950s through the 19890s, mental health rates, alcoholism, and drug addiction was definitely higher in Sexual minorities. But this was due to being raised in a constant state of victims of bigotry, Christian hate, being constantly under threat, often victims of physical abuse and abuse at home (like I was), then abuse at school, having to live a lie to survive, ALL BECAUSE OF CHRISTIANS.
You dare to say that homosexuals have a higher rate of mental health problems when it is you who is causing it? You are the abuser with your intolerance, telling children that just because of how they were born that they are wrong, bad, sinful. I believe you will answer toGod for this. Where in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John did Jesus give you the right or instruct you to harm both children and adults with your preaching, judgment, discrimination, etc?
HOMOSEXUAL SEX & HETEROSEXUAL SEX: As a Christian, ANY sex outside of marriage (which can include common-law marriage in most churches) is a sin, be it heterosexual or homosexual sex. Homosexual sex, within the confines of a marriage or a loving long-term committed relationship (common-law), is not a sin, when using the corrected translations of Paul.
FALSE TEACHINGS:
It is you and those like you making False claims to Kids. I have managed to get three Christian web page taken down due to their outrageous lies about homosexuals, and using false references to support those lies. If tell anyone that Jesus was against homosexuality, it would be a lie. Paul was mistranslated and the proof that is easily obtained, so that is a lie perpetuated by most (but not all) Christian churches. Some Christian churches use the correct translations, which is why they perform Gay marriages.
CATECHISM: I just gave quotations from the Catholic Catechism showing that it recognized that some people are born homosexual. It goes on, at length, about how you should treat homosexual people. You might read the section I mentioned, and read the chapters on Respecting Human Dignity, Homosexual Inclination is not itself a sin, The Necessity of Friendship and Community, and Pastoral Care.
SEXUAL vs ROMANTIC FLUIDITY:
If you dig deep into the research, the fluidity only happens when there is enough homosexuality or heterosexuality in a person, and when it happens out of necessity. The ‘necessity group’ includes people in prison, people like women who had long-term/multiple rapes, incest and/or abuse at the hands of men, being in prison, extreme societal/religious pressure (especially with Mormons), as well as some others.
Many times these situations are only sexual and not romantic, although a bond might form.
As you may know, we are all born on 4 sexual spectrums, Gender, Sexual Orientation, Masculinity/Femininity, and Libido. We are all a mix of these things, to various degrees on each spectrum. A person might be born 50% heterosexual and 50% homosexual (Bisexual), or 80% homosexual and 20% heterosexual, or 75% heterosexual and 25%, or 100% homosexual or heterosexual, or any other mix distributed over a population bell curve, where the bell curve is obviously based town heterosexual, and with probably only around 10% each that are completely heterosexual or homosexual.
In prison environments, we see ‘some’ heterosexual identified men and women who take a homosexual role in sex and relationship, with strict gender-like roles. This typically happens for inmates with long or lifetime sentences, for physical protection and/or need for intimacy. But it has been found that once they are released from prison, these people immediately return to their original orientation. Most of them describe their temporary homosexual activity as being unfulfilling and most often unwanted.
At the same time, you have some people who are in the bisexual range, where they are capable of having romantic attraction and sexual attraction to both genders.
Next, there are very many people who are near the bisexual range. On their own, they might experiment outside their primary orientation, but their romantic relationships would all be based on their primary sexual orientation. Some men who are primarily homosexual and secondarily heterosexual will force themselves to marry women, to avoid the stigma of being homosexual. These marriages end up harming both people. The man manages to be sexual at the beginning, then sex goes away (he usually gets it with men) while the wife feels rejected, unattractive, unwanted…
Another example would be someone like the singer rickey martin who had relationships and sex with a number of women, but he said it never felt fulfilling to him. When he fell for a man and had sex with him, he said it finally felt completely right and fulfilling, as well as being far more sexually gratifying. He now has twin boys via a surrogate.
ROMANTIC FLUIDITY happens far less than Sexual Fluidity. Sexual Orientation is NOT defined by who you have sex with, it is defined by who you are Romantically and sexually attracted too. I have known people who were sexually attracted to both genders but were only romantically attracted to one gender.
Note that some heterosexual men can be effeminate and some heterosexual women can be masculine, all to various degrees. Asexuality is NOT a sexual orientation, it describes where a person is on the LIBIDO spectrum. People can be anywhere between being hyper sexual to being asexual, on the Libido spectrum.
CONCLUSION: Sexual Orientation itself is NOT fluid, but sometimes, given certain circumstances, Sexual identity can be fluid. However, most who are sexually fluid are not romantically fluid. Also, keep in mind that the further a person is from the bisexual range, the less fulfilling both sex and romance is, and the less likely the person is to be fluid under any circumstances.
THEREFORE, Sexual Fluidity is not at as you presented it to be.
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IDENTICAL TWINS, EACH IN THEIR OWN AMNIOTIC SACK:
It is very rare for twins to develop in one amniotic sack. Each twin fetus usually develops in its own amniotic sack. One track to homosexuality is due to do hormonal differences at two specific points in fetal development. The propensity for this is genetic and appears to be handed down on the female side of the family line. The more sons she has, the higher the likelihood of the youngest being homosexual or bisexual.
It turns out that a boy fetus is seen somewhat as a foreign invader by the woman's body, due to the Y chromosome in the male, causing the woman to produce antibodies, histocompatibility Y-antigen, which then affects the hormonal balance in the amniotic sack. If this response is high enough, it can push the fetal brain development towards homosexuality. The HY antigen is found on the surface of the cells of male, but not female, mammals. The antibodies produced by the mother during pregnancy, stick around with the mother. Each time she gives birth to a son, the antibody response is even greater. It is possible that this same process will affect female fetuses, but no research has been done on it.
With Identical Twins, The hormonal balances in one amniotic sack can be different from the other sack, and one might develop as a homosexual and the other not.
GENETICS:
When we talk about homosexuality and genetics, it is not a direct link, like the color of your eyes. One gene that has been identified as increasing the propensity to produce a homosexual child, is Xq28, but this is only one piece of the puzzle.
WHY DOES EVOLUTION NOT CAUSE HOMOSEXUALITY TO DIE OFF?
HIGH FECUNDITY & HOMOSEXUALITY
Most homosexuals do not reproduce, although Bisexuals would. This would suggest that evolution would cause homosexuality to disappear, yet not only has it not disappeared, it appears throughout the animal kingdom, such as giraffes, apes (such as chimpanzees, Japanese macaques, etc), bison, kob antelope, penguins, bottlenose dolphins, walrus, gray whales, black swans, guianan-cock-of-the-rock, and thousands of others.
Fecundity the ability to produce an abundance of offspring (which survive childhood). The genes responsible for high fecundity in a family line are also linked to producing homosexual children. The more your family line tends to produce many healthy offspring, the higher the likelihood of producing a homosexual child.
It is very easy for you to accuse me of, “It's a whole lot easier to "whine and run””. But then you are not the one who has been attacked all your life by people like you. I have discussed these issues way too many times, and now that I don’t want to do it 100 more times, you see it as a fault.
I believe that you are spreading false ideology and harming children in doing so. You believe the same of me. What more is there to discuss? You can toss out things you have read, and I can refute them, and we could do it for months and get nowhere. So why should I keep doing such a useless task?
I take the time to track references back to the studies, then look at the study subjects and parameters. One website claimed that homosexuals were incapable of long-term homosexual relationships. It had a reference to a study. The study was actually about the effects of having an “open relationship” on a long-term relationship. It had nothing to do with what the website was claiming it proved.
Loving Long-term homosexual relationships are now the norm in the homosexual community. I have been with my husband for over 27 years and we are legally married. Almost all of the Gay boys and girls I work with are looking for a relationship, not sex.
Homosexual children have less sex than heterosexual children, although this is in part due to the difficulty of finding other gay partners when most are still in the closet. Being openly gay in school is still a very difficult thing to do, except in a small number of places. It is easier in parts of Western Europe, Canada, and Australia, but even in those places, being openly gay in school will mean some level of harassment and bullying.
Close-minded Christian parents who find out their child is homosexual or bisexual, make life a living hell for their child, and they will feel righteous doing it. If you end up with a Gay child, will you love and accept that child unconditionally, or will you do everything humanly possible to make your child Straight, making his or her life a living hell? If a child is getting bullied at school, then comes home to more bullying by parents and siblings, it is a recipe for suicide.
There are Christian “Conversion” camps and schools who will claim that they can make your child straight, but it has never happened. Even the founder of Exodus International, the largest gay conversion group in the world, went back to being gay, then publicly apologized for all of the harm and suffering his organization caused gay people. Exodus was forced into bankruptcy after losing a lawsuit against them. He said that most of their adults who claimed to be converted and married in a straight ceremony, were gay men marrying lesbians, were there was no sex. He said these usually did not last long. if you get a bisexual person to be straight, no conversion took place. He or she was simply bullied and shamed into one path.
This year, a Jewish Gay conversion center was forced to close.
A Christian camp for gay children was forced to close after multiple children provided evidence of abuse, aversion therapy with ammonia (to induce vomiting), group shaming, etc. but Christians are persistent in their desire to torture children into being straight, when it just does not work. I talked with a mother who was volunteering with me to help care for AIDS patients in hospice. She had a Gay son who committed suicide after her and her hues-husband forced the son to do long pray vigils, isolation from everyone, etc. She had remorse, but not her husband, who felt fully justified and felt his son deserved to die if he was going to stay gay—hence the divorce. I call it murder.
Would you drive your child to suicide in an attempt at conversion? My mother told me she would rather me be dead than a disgusting pervert [gay]. But I continued to talk with her and eventually explained that she had to either accept and love me for who I am or lose me. Her love for me eventually overcame her Catholic hatred of homosexuals. This helped when my sister came out as a Lesbian. My mother eventually became a big supporter of Gay causes. My father was a Catholic theologian and for a time headed up the Los Angles CCD (religious instruction classes for Catholic children in Public schools). When I came out to him, he was the one who first talked about how the church was wrong in their stance against homosexuals and talked about mistranslation and what Jesus said and did not say. It started me on a long journey of research into Christianity, and later Islam and Buddhism.
So, I will close once again saying that I cannot keep this discussion going. I have to give up sleep to write these long replies. Kinda do not bother replying.
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Hi, I did not actually expect you to read what I wrote since that is the typical pattern I see with those who want to preach against homosexuality, but I put it there for those reading the thread, for their information.
Since you did not honor my request not to reply, and you raised specific issues in your two replies, I then had to decide if I should be courteous and answer you, or ignore your reply. I chose to answer your replies, which you now say I had no right to do. I also felt I needed to respond for the benefit of those who will tread the thread.
If I tell you that I don't want to engage in a long discussion with you concerning Christianity and homosexuality, due to my lack of time and health reasons, and because I have held the same discussions many times in the past, just to be insulted and attacked, this is a legitimate request that should be honored. But you did not honor my request and you replied with questions and comments. Now you say I had no right to respond to your response because I said I did not intend to respond. If you had honored my request not to reply, that would have been the end of it. Your logic is completely flawed.
I have lost none of my rights under ethical norms nor DA rules. You went against ethical norms by dishonored my initial request to please not reply.
YOU ARE DELIBERATELY GENERATING TROUBLE, NEGATIVITY & DRAMA:
When you said to me: "Wow! Look at the hate and aggression! I believe that's called hypocritical. Don't hate me but I'll hate you, right?" I realized that you were deliberately trying to stir up trouble to create drama because I never used hate or aggression. Now in your latest reply, you are doing the same thing, trying to generate trouble and drama. I will not participate in your game playing. There could never have been a rational discussion with you because you would have been too busy trying to generate negativity and drama. You never had any legitimate interest in my thoughts on homosexuality and the Bible. I have seen this pattern again and again. I will not participate in your game.
You have proven your negative intent in contacting me. This discussion is now over. Any reply will be hidden. I wish you the best.
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A gay couple was actually featured in the Bible?
Interesting. Color me interested.
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Hi, There is also a case featured in the Old Testament too, along with references to others. However, we have to look at these cases from the standpoint of probabilities and the known evidence. No one can absolutely prove that they were or were not homosexual couples, but we can point to a strong and cumulative body of evidence showing that they were. If you have an interest in this, I highly recommend: Same-Sex Unions in Premodern Europe by John Boswell, which you can get for as cheap as 48 cents used on Amazon. John Boswell (March 20, 1947 – December 24, 1994) was a prominent historian and a professor at Yale University. Many of Boswell's studies focused on the issue of religion and homosexuality, specifically Christianity and homosexuality. He died of AIDS.
The Old Testament also has some passages of great interest. The same Hebrew word that is used in Genesis 2:24 to describe how Adam felt about Eve (and how spouses are supposed to feel toward each other) is used in Ruth 1:14 to describe how Ruth felt about Naomi, who were believed to be a Lesbian couple. Her feelings are celebrated, not condemned. You can read much more about this and other Biblical cases in: The Children Are Free: Reexamining the Biblical Evidence on Same-sex Relationships by Rev. Jeff Miner & John Connolly. Throughout Christian history, Ruth's vow to Naomi has been used to illustrate the nature of the marriage covenant. These words are often read at Christian wedding ceremonies and used in sermons to illustrate the ideal love that spouses should have for one another. The fact that these words were originally spoken by one woman to another tells us a lot about how God feels about same-gender relationships.
Nowhere in the New Testament did Jesus Christ once ever say a single negative thing against homosexuals, homosexuality or homosexual sex (as witnessed by Matthew, Mark, Luke & John). We now know the Jesus was raised in a city with a high Roman population (recent archaeology), where Jesus would have been exposed to the practice of homosexuality by the Roman population, especially in the Roman Garrisons, sometime in his ~34 years of life. Note: In the time of Jesus, in the Roman Empire, and before that the Greek Empire, 'homosexuality' was recognized as we know it today. Same sex-sex was simply an aspect of sexuality in general. Two male lovers might choose to live together for a period, but most had family obligations for arranged marriages and to try to produce an heir. Some did not have these obligations.
Same-Sex sex If you are a Gay Christian, then you face the same rules about sexuality that Straight people face, which is to only have sex with a spouse [as in a Gay Marriage, Gay Holy Union or a Gay Committed Loving Relationship (when marriage is not possible)]. It is only in Paul (such as in Corinthians, Romans & Timothy) where translations claim that Paul is talking about homosexuality. We now know that the translators have egregiously taken two words, claim them to be a word-pair, and assigned it to mean homosexual, even this is not seen anywhere else in Coptic Greek, at the time Paul wrote them. For greater detail, you can read New Testament & Homosexuality.
Some Christian Churches, like the Episcopal Church, agree that Paul's alleged admonitions against homosexuality are mistranslations from his original Coptic Greek writings, which is why there are a number of Christian churches who will perform Gay Weddings.
It is also worth noting that the Catholic church officially noted in their Catechism that homosexuals are born homosexual. Homosexuality is also very common in the natural world. So far, Homosexuality has been documented in almost 500 species of animals, and 1,500 species total, showing that sexual preference is predetermined and pervasive throughout Nature. Examples include Penguins, the entire ape family (like Bonobo Chimpanzees & Japanese Macaques), American Bison, Giraffes, Kob Antelopes, Bottlenose Dolphins, Walrus, Gray Whale, Black Swan, Guianan-Cock-of-the-Rock, Dragonflies, etc.
Finally, you may have wondered how homosexuality survived evolution. Logic would suggest that if homosexuals reproduce at a lower rate than heterosexuals, the genes for it should have evolved out of the human genome. Instead, it seems to have remained constant for millennia. It turns out the genes responsible for increase fecundity (producing an abundance of healthy offspring) in humans is also part of the XQ28 gene set, which is associated directly with homosexuality. Larger family sizes is a big factor in evolutionary survival. The genes that favor survivability of the human race include homosexuality.
The discussion of genetics and why we are born homosexual is for another day, should you have an interest.
Matthew
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Neat to hear. Thank you for sharing.
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historians find the likely-hood of these two's marriage debatable and is the result of a historian cherry-picking greek meanings
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A reasonable case can be made for either argument. There is no way to prove anything from those distant times, which is why I presented it as a tantalizing possibility, and not as absolute fact. Some historical facts of the bible can be corroborated with archeology, but otherwise all you have are written accounts from various people, which may or may not be true or unbiased. There is no proof at all, or evidence, that the miracles of Jesus ever happened. This is where 'Faith' comes in.
Additionally, the Coptic Greek usage in the Bible is subject to the culture and regional location at the time it was originally written. There are numerous misinterpretations in the current modern language bibles,due to a lack of understanding of the Coptic Greek back when the bible was first written. No language is static. Languages are contest;y changing, changing each generation. The meanings of words and phrases change over time. Therefore, the only way to properly translate ancient scripts is to become a scholar of both the culture and usage of the language, at the time in question.
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It is actually an act of love to confront wicked behavior- hatred is to say "Do as you please" and that latter one leads to every kind of disorder in behavior immaginable!
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What you consider to be a sexual sin is not agreed to by major Christian churches and christian around the world. It is agreed that sex, outside of a loving and committed relationship is a sin, be is heterosexual or homosexual. But many Christian churches, some of which perform Gay weddings, believe that homosexual sex, within the confines of gay marriage, is not a sin.
Further, the original bible, written in Coptic Greek, by the disciples and Paul, do NOT say that homosexual sex is a sin. It is only the later translations of the Coptic Greek that say this. These translations have been proven to be false. If you ready my papers on Homosexuality and the New and Old Testaments, you would see this.
I do not question the words of Jesus or even Paul, I challenge the words of TRANSLATORS who made bad translations, probably deliberately, due to how homosexuality was being seen as a Pagan thing, and therefore must be wrong.
The first sign of Christianity being against Homosexuality did not show up until AD1100, in the writing of Matthew Damien., when he wrote a new interpretation of the Sodom and Gomorrah. The Christian and Jewish faiths had never interpreted Sodom and Gomorrah as having anything to do with homosexuality, until then, and even now the Jewish faith does not interpret it that way. This new anti-homosexual translation chose to interpret the word KNOW in a sexual connotation, despite the word never being used that way elsewhere in the Old Testament.
The Catholic Church has officially acknowledged that people are born Homosexual, because there is no escaping the huge body of science proving this to be the case. If you are born Homosexual, as are many other animals (thousands and counting), then it must be part of God's plan. Who are YOU to question God's plan and intent?
Alas, too many Christians are married to the lie and will not give it up, because it feeds their own Bigotry and hatreds.
Christ preaches love and tolerance, while you spread hate and intolerance.
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While I am myself of two minds regarding Homosexuality and how it interacts with my faith, I feel a certain obligation to play the devil's advocate. Or angel's advocate, dependent on where one stands.
What you consider to be a sexual sin is not agreed to by major Christian churches and christian around the world. It is agreed that sex, outside of a loving and committed relationship is a sin, be is heterosexual or homosexual. But many Christian churches, some of which perform Gay weddings, believe that homosexual sex, within the confines of gay marriage, is not a sin.
The major Churches most certainly are of a mind that Homosexual sex is a sin-the Catholic and Autocephalous Eastern Orthodox Churches and the majority of the Anglican Communion and Pentecostal Movement.
Further, the original bible, written in Coptic Greek,
The original Bible was written in Koine Greek. Coptic is not so much a Greek language as the Egyptian language using the Greek Alphabet.
by the disciples and Paul, do NOT say that homosexual sex is a sin. It is only the later translations of the Coptic Greek that say this. These translations have been proven to be false. If you ready my papers on Homosexuality and the New and Old Testaments, you would see this.
Your interpretations are reliant on definite stretches and are not backed up by many theologians or Biblical scholars.
I do not question the words of Jesus or even Paul, I challenge the words of TRANSLATORS who made bad translations, probably deliberately, due to how homosexuality was being seen as a Pagan thing, and therefore must be wrong.
To blame the translators for every aspect of the teachings that doesn't fit with your view is not a terribly empirical manner to go about things.
The first sign of Christianity being against Homosexuality did not show up until AD1100, in the writing of Matthew Damien., when he wrote a new interpretation of the Sodom and Gomorrah.
Even if you are right about the reasons to discount the mentions of homosexuality in Paul's Letters-a nearly spurious suggestion in it of itself-there are the passages of Leviticus
".וְאֶת-זָכָר, לֹא תִשְׁכַּב מִשְׁכְּבֵי אִשָּׁה — תּוֹעֵבָה הִוא
Lev. 18:22 "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind; it is detestable."
.וְאִישׁ אֲשֶׁר יִשְׁכַּב אֶת-זָכָר מִשְׁכְּבֵי אִשָּׁה — תּוֹעֵבָה עָשׂוּ שְׁנֵיהֶם. מוֹת יוּמָתוּ; דְּמֵיהֶם בָּם
Lev. 20:13 "And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed a detestable act: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
The Christian and Jewish faiths had never interpreted Sodom and Gomorrah as having anything to do with homosexuality, until then,
Again, presupposing that your interpretation of Paul's letters is the only one.
and even now the Jewish faith does not interpret it that way.
Some do, some don't.
This new anti-homosexual translation chose to interpret the word KNOW in a sexual connotation, despite the word never being used that way elsewhere in the Old Testament.
Another unsupported presupposition.
The Catholic Church has officially acknowledged that people are born Homosexual, because there is no escaping the huge body of science proving this to be the case. If you are born Homosexual, as are many other animals (thousands and counting), then it must be part of God's plan. Who are YOU to question God's plan and intent?
1) The Catholic Church does not teach that individuals are born gay, only that gays are not sinful simply by virtue of being gay.
2) There is no conclusive scientific evidence that anyone is born gay. While their is certainly genetic coding for homosexuality, it is only pertinent given certain outward stimuli, usually in early childhood.
3) The fact that one has a predisposition to homosexual sex does not necessarily justify having homosexual sex. Most everyone has some form of sexual attraction to others and are expected to control themselves, so it is not a stretch to imagine that certain manifestations of sexual desire would be patently forbidden.
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Hi,
Yes, the greater majority of Christian churches in the world believe that homosexual sex is a sin. Your use of the term “major churches,” is not a good choice, because the Episcopal Church is a major world church, despite the inner conflict over the issue, and it does not see homosexual sex a sin, under the circumstances I mentioned.
Interestingly, due to the science, the Catholic Catechism was changed years ago to say that Homosexuals are BORN homosexual (except for Bisexuals, who they say have a choice). But instead of say that therefore God does not mistakes, they go on to say that they are born this way as a way of God testing their faith, concluding that homosexuals must live a celibate life.
One complaint I make about many Christians who are homophobic and actively discriminate and/or harm homosexuals and work agains equal homosexual rights, is that what they are doing is against the teachings of Christ, such as his Sermon on the Mount and Sermon on the Plains, not throwing the first stone, etc.
If a Christian believes that homosexuality is a sin, then fine, but it is unchristian to work to cause others harm, so matter what you think their sins are. If a sinner is harming others, such as a serial rapist, then obviously one works to bring the person to justice, to stop the harm to others. But a homosexual man should NOT face being beaten, being crippled, arrested and imprisoned, loss of career, tortured, executed and murdered by Christians and Muslims around the world. Homosexuals should not face having Christian churches working to deny them basic human rights, working to actively discriminate against homosexuals.
According to my research, from multiple sources, the entire New testament was originally written in Coptic Greek. I will investigate it further.
Languages are fluid. Words, word pairings and phrases change in meaning over time. One recent example is a change between old and new translations of 1 Corinthians 13:13. It used to be that the primary definition of the word CHARITY was “Universal Love for your fellow mankind.” In more modern usage, the word Charity denotes giving of help, kindness towards others, etc. 1 Corinthians 13:13, says:
And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
But now in modern translations of 1 Corinthians 13:13, it says:
But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.
The word CHARITY has been substituted with the word LOVE, but the meanings are very different. Love, and The Universal Love of Your Fellow Mankind do not mean the same things. Another bad translation, this one in modern times, trying to keep up with the drift in the english language.
[ NOTE: If you look at the wording of any biblical passage, in the 100+ English bible translations in use today, you find a wide variance in the wording. You can see this either in bible software like I have, or by Googling a given passage, such as biblehub.com/1_corinthians/13-… ]
CULTURAL CONTEXT IN TRANSLATING:
In order to make a correct translation of any text, one must study the CULTURAL influences on the language at the time of the writings. Consider the word-pair ‘Lady Killer,’ in English. A direct translation would be ‘a person who kills ladies,’ or ‘a lady who kills.’ A translator would have to choose which. But it reality, ‘Lady Killer’ means ‘a man who knows how to charm ladies.’
The only reliable way to determine the meaning of a word, phrase, or word-pairing is from: – the cultural context of how it was used in that language, in time period and geographic location, noting that even back at the time of the original writing, the usage may have changed depending on the context in which it was used,
– a comparative study of how it is used in all available texts from the same time period,
– and the context of how it is used in the entire passage or overall text.Translators who originally translated the Coptic Greek Bible to Latin, did so in complete ignorance of the cultural context of the Greek language from the of the original authors of the scriptures. So much of that was lost and destroyed by Christians and not regained until more modern times. Also, when looking at the word-pairs in question (supposedly meaning homosexual sex), when they are found in other Greek writings of the same time period, they do not carry the meaning of homosexual sex.
WHAT WE KNOW OF JUDAIC CULTURE & A WIDER COMPARATIVE BODY GREEK LITERATURE FROM THE TIME OF JESUS:
At the time that translators were translating the bible written in Greek, to a Latin version, much of what was know of Greek culture and Greek writings from the time period of Jesus had been lost to Christian destruction. The translators would not have had a wide body, if any, of Greek literature to do a comparative analysis of the word phrases, nor would they have had an understanding of the Cultural influences on the Greek language at the time of Jesus.
We now know far more from Biblical archeology, from far more Greek literature being discovered, and people willing to do an extensive comparative analysis of Greek literature. Some professionals have done the work, while others stand on the work done a millennia ago.
CONCLUSION:
You discounted what I said about Translators of the Bible without an understanding of what is entailed in translating, which would help you understand why ‘some’ heavily biased Christian theologians stick to the same incorrect assumptions, which are based in ignorance of the cultural differences of the Greek language usage in Judea at the time of Christ, and comparative examination of all available Greek texts of the time.
Further, there are actually plenty theologians, biblical archeologists and scholars who do support what I wrote about the translations, enough so to convince some Christian churches to change their theological stance on homosexual sex. Obviously many Christian theologians are extremely biased and no evidence ever presented would ever change there minds about these translations.
If you read my paper
New Testament + Homosexuality it gives greater detail, but even this is a boiled-down version of the referenced books I give.
For Leviticus and other Old Testament references, I direct you to ready my detailed arguments on each passage concerning homosexuality in my papers:
Old Testament + Homosexuality
I give the Jewish interpretation of Sodom and Gomorrah in my paper:
SODOM DESTROYED ON 6-29-3129BC
SODOM & GOMORRAH DESTROYED BY ASTEROID ON 6-29-3129 BCE
Sodom and Gomorra were two ancient Early-Bronze-Age cities in a fertile region of the Middle East, near the Dead Sea. The time is shortly before dawn on 6-29-3129 BCE, and 600 miles (966 Km) from Sodom & Gomorrah, there are two Samarian Astronomers observing the skies. They observed a fiery body traveling across the night sky. They inscribed its path and it relative course and position against the stars on a clay disk, called a Planisphere. Dr. Hempsall and Alan Bond deciphered the clay disk and used computers to recreate the night sky thousands of years ago. They pinpointed the sighting of the ancient astronomers to shortly before dawn on June 29 in the year 3123 B.C.
The asteroid, which was about 1.25 Km (0.78 Miles) in diameter, exploded above the ground with a force of a 10,000 megaton nuclear weapon (100 times more powerful than any nuclear weapon on earth). SODOM DESTROYED ON 6-29-3129BC
Naturally I cannot say this covers what all branches of the Jewish faith believe, just like we cannot say that every Christian church believes in various interpretations of their theology. One tries to cover the majority view.
I refer you to the Catholic Catechism. My links to the one I have in PDF form, that I downloaded, is an older version of the one I found just now searching, and it appears to have changes: www.usccb.org/issues-and-actio…
These are quotes I plucked out after a rapid scan. I do not have time now to do a deep reading: It refers to the fact that “a considerable number of people who experience same-sex attraction experience it as an inclination that they did not choose” and that “the inclination is not subject to their free will.”
While the Church teaches that homosexual acts are immoral, she does distinguish between engaging in homosexual acts and having a homosexual inclination. While the former is always objectively sinful, the latter is not. To the extent that a homosexual tendency or inclination is not subject to one’s free will, one is not morally culpable for that tendency. Consequently, the Church does not teach that the experience of homosexual attraction is in itself sinful.DENIAL OF SCIENCE WHEN YOU DON’T LIKE THE RESULTS:
Your argument is one that comes from ignorance, probably from focusing on reading homophobic articles trying to claim the science is no good, but all of the science I list below is peer reviewed.
There is a very considerable body of Scientific studies to prove we are born homosexual, some very recently.
There are brain structural differences in homosexual people, such as in the amygdala and hypothalamus. These homosexual structural brain differences have now been found in fetal brains, showing that these structural changes in the brain takes place in utero. Some babies are born with brains that already have homosexual structures.
Four groups of neurons in the hypothalamus called INAH1, INAH2, INAH3 and INAH4 play a role in the regulation of sexual behavior. Significant differences were found between heterosexual and homosexual people. These are formed in the womb during fetal development.
A 2010 study, Garcia-Falgueras and Swaab asserted that "the fetal brain develops during the intrauterine period in the male direction through a direct action of testosterone on the developing nerve cells, or in the female direction through the absence of this hormone surge. In this way, our gender identity (the conviction of belonging to the male or female gender) and sexual orientation are programmed or organized into our brain structures when we are still in the womb.
Then there is the gene dubbed the ‘Gay Gene’ XQ28 (which is actually just one gene in a larger picture), which affects increase fecundity (producing an abundance of offspring) and a propensity on the female side to produce homosexual children.
Then there are the Chromosome linkage studies, the Epigenetic studies, Birth order studies, pheromone studies
The list goes on and on.
This is where you can come up with homophobic people who question the science, but it is now a preponderance of a lot of evidence proving that people are born homosexual.
There is no such this as absolutes in science. Those who are uneducated in the sciences latch on to this, in their ignorance, to claim you can’t prove this or that with science.
………
Your #3 is mind-boggling ignorance. It is based on the idea that sexuality is a choice, something debunked decades ago. Homosexuals such as myself have never had the slightest sexual attraction to a female. It is on a spectrum, with some people completely homosexual and completely heterosexual, then a some people with minor attractions to either the opposite or same gender, then to those who are equally attracted to both genders.
For someone like me, who has been married to the same man for almost 28 years, if I do not act on my homosexual attractions, then I am celibate and very likely alone. It is certainly easy for someone like you to point to others and say you should be alone all your life and celibate all your life. This is bigotry in action.
For many people who identify as heterosexual, they will have some degree of same gender attraction, however, most of them will never feel enough attraction to act on it. Many who identify as homosexual will have some minor attraction to the opposite gender, but again, not enough to ever act on it. The closer you get towards Bisexual, on the spectrum, the more likely someone may actually act on both attractions.
If you actually want to know more about Human Sexuality, you can look at my”
Are You Gay, Bi or Straight?
DETERMINING SEXUAL IDENTITY
For many people, there is no question at all about what their Sexual Orientation and Identity are, starting at a very young age. But for many others, it can be very confusing and traumatic. ALL of us are a blend of Straight and Gay. People who are almost completely Straight or Gay usually know how they are different from very young ages. Everyone else will have some someone degree of Confusion and Questioning. Many young people have a small amount of latent homosexuality, enough to confuse them, but not enough to be a Bisexual. Others can be confused by having a friend they love dearly. Some young people are late bloomers, becoming sexually aware later than most others. For others, there is also confusion about Gender. For others, they may not have sexual feelings at all.
Some people may not become aware of their homosexual nature, or may not recognize, realize, or acknowledge their homo Are You Straight, Gay, or Bi?
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Yes, the greater majority of Christian churches in the world believe that homosexual sex is a sin. Your use of the term “major churches,” is not a good choice, because the Episcopal Church is a major world church, despite the inner conflict over the issue, and it does not see homosexual sex a sin, under the circumstances I mentioned.
No, the Episcopal Church is not a major world church, not by any standard-numbering not even two million members-and certainly not by the standards of the others I mentioned-the Catholic Church alone commands more than half the world's population of Christians and Pentecostal are near one hundred times as many adherents as the Episcopalians.
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One complaint I make about many Christians who are homophobic and actively discriminate and/or harm homosexuals and work agains equal homosexual rights, is that what they are doing is against the teachings of Christ, such as his Sermon on the Mount and Sermon on the Plains, not throwing the first stone, etc.
I would advise against the "first stone" anecdote. Aside from being a worn out phrase, the true meaning behind Our Lord's intervention is because, though the crowd was prepared to stone the adulteress, they hadn't taken the man she'd betrayed her husband with, which is a violation of Mosaic Law. His charge was not of lacking compassion, but of hypocrisy and selectively enforcing the Law. After the crowd disperses, He rather gruffly dismisses the adulteress, the most important part of that passage being His instructing her to go forth and "sin no more", or something to that effect.
-----------
Languages are fluid. Words, word pairings and phrases change in meaning over time. One recent example is a change between old and new translations of 1 Corinthians 13:13. It used to be that the primary definition of the word CHARITY was “Universal Love for your fellow mankind.” In more modern usage, the word Charity denotes giving of help, kindness towards others, etc. 1 Corinthians 13:13, says:
And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
But now in modern translations of 1 Corinthians 13:13, it says:
But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.
It's change of wording, not the essential concept.
The word CHARITY has been substituted with the word LOVE, but the meanings are very different. Love, and The Universal Love of Your Fellow Mankind do not mean the same things. Another bad translation, this one in modern times, trying to keep up with the drift in the english language.
Given that Our Lord spoke somewhat regularly about loving your neighbor-which is to say, everyone-it can be tacitly inferred that most uses of the word "love" whose context does not suggest otherwise, refer to the universal love that Plato dubbed "Agape".
CULTURAL CONTEXT IN TRANSLATING:
In order to make a correct translation of any text, one must study the CULTURAL influences on the language at the time of the writings. Consider the word-pair ‘Lady Killer,’ in English. A direct translation would be‘a person who kills ladies,’ or ‘a lady who kills.’ A translator would have to choose which. But it reality, ‘Lady Killer’ means ‘a man who knows how to charm ladies.’
The only reliable way to determine the meaning of a word, phrase, or word-pairing is from:– the cultural context of how it was used in that language, in time period and geographic location, noting that even back at the time of the original writing, the usage may have changed depending on the context in which it was used,
– a comparative study of how it is used in all available texts from the same time period,
– and the context of how it is used in the entire passage or overall text.Translators who originally translated the Coptic Greek Bible to Latin, did so in complete ignorance of the cultural context of the Greek language from the of the original authors of the scriptures. So much of that was lost and destroyed by Christians and not regained until more modern times. Also, when looking at the word-pairs in question (supposedly meaning homosexual sex), when they are found in other Greek writings of the same time period, they do not carry the meaning of homosexual sex.
Examples being...?
WHAT WE KNOW OF JUDAIC CULTURE & A WIDER COMPARATIVE BODY GREEK LITERATURE FROM THE TIME OF JESUS:
At the time that translators were translating the bible written in Greek, to a Latin version, much of what was know of Greek culture and Greek writings from the time period of Jesus had been lost to Christian destruction. The translators would not have had a wide body, if any, of Greek literature to do a comparative analysis of the word phrases, nor would they have had an understanding of the Cultural influences on the Greek language at the time of Jesus.
We know for a fact that Jews of the time were none too fond of homosexuality, which is not something most scholars, even particularly progressive Jewish ones, are like to deny.
We now know far more from Biblical archaeology, from far more Greek literature being discovered, and people willing to do an extensive comparative analysis of Greek literature. Some professionals have done the work, while others stand on the work done a millennia ago.
CONCLUSION:
You discounted what I said about Translators of the Bible without an understanding of what is entailed in translating, which would help you understand why ‘some’ heavily biased Christian theologians stick to the same incorrect assumptions, which are based in ignorance of the cultural differences of the Greek language usage in Judea at the time of Christ, and comparative examination of all available Greek texts of the time.
To reach this conclusion in the manner you have demonstrates not so much evidence of what you believe, so much as evidence as why not to believe what you don't.
Further, there are actually plenty theologians, biblical archaeologists and scholars who do support what I wrote about the translations, enough so to convince some Christian churches to change their theological stance on homosexual sex. Obviously many Christian theologians are extremely biased and no evidence ever presented would ever change there minds about these translations.
Said theologians and archaeologists being...?
I refer you to the Catholic Catechism. My links to the one I have in PDF form, that I downloaded, is an older version of the one I found just now searching, and it appears to have changes: www.usccb.org/issues-and-actio…
These are quotes I plucked out after a rapid scan. I do not have time now to do a deep reading:It refers to the fact that “a considerable number of people who experience same-sex attraction experience it as an inclination that they did not choose” and that “the inclination is not subject to their free will.”
While the Church teaches that homosexual acts are immoral, she does distinguish between engaging in homosexual acts and having a homosexual inclination. While the former is always objectively sinful, the latter is not. To the extent that a homosexual tendency or inclination is not subject to one’s free will, one is not morally culpable for that tendency. Consequently, the Church does not teach that the experience of homosexual attraction is in itself sinful.
No more than it teaches any sexual attraction is sinful. I refer you to Matthew 5:28DENIAL OF SCIENCE WHEN YOU DON’T LIKE THE RESULTS:
Your argument is one that comes from ignorance, probably from focusing on reading homophobic articles trying to claim the science is no good, but all of the science I list below is peer reviewed.
There is a very considerable body of Scientific studies to prove we are born homosexual, some very recently.
There are brain structural differences in homosexual people, such as in the amygdala and hypothalamus. These homosexual structural brain differences have now been found in fetal brains, showing that these structural changes in the brain takes place in utero. Some babies are born with brains that already have homosexual structures.
Four groups of neurons in the hypothalamus called INAH1, INAH2, INAH3 and INAH4 play a role in the regulation of sexual behavior. Significant differences were found between heterosexual and homosexual people. These are formed in the womb during fetal development.
A 2010 study, Garcia-Falgueras and Swaab asserted that "the fetal brain develops during the intrauterine period in the male direction through a direct action of testosterone on the developing nerve cells, or in the female direction through the absence of this hormone surge. In this way, our gender identity (the conviction of belonging to the male or female gender) and sexual orientation are programmed or organized into our brain structures when we are still in the womb.
Then there is the gene dubbed the ‘Gay Gene’ XQ28 (which is actually just one gene in a larger picture), which affects increase fecundity (producing an abundance of offspring) and a propensity on the female side to produce homosexual children.
Then there are the Chromosome linkage studies, the Epigenetic studies, Birth order studies, pheromone studies
The list goes on and on.
This is where you can come up with homophobic people who question the science, but it is now a preponderance of a lot of evidence proving that people are born homosexual.
There is no such this as absolutes in science. Those who are uneducated in the sciences latch on to this, in their ignorance, to claim you can’t prove this or that with science.
www.sciencealert.com/watch-wha…
www.cnsnews.com/blog/michael-w…
theconversation.com/the-scienc…
There most certainly is not a gay gene per se, There is genetic coding for homosexuality, present in large percentages of the human population, but no hereditary chromosome which makes the recipient gay or straight. Homosexuality only makes it manifest when someone with the appropriate coding-what that coding is and how common it is I don't know-undergoes the proper environmental stimuli.
………
Your #3 is mind-boggling ignorance. It is based on the idea that sexuality is a choice, something debunked decades ago. Homosexuals such as myself have never had the slightest sexual attraction to a female. It is on a spectrum, with some people completely homosexual and completely heterosexual, then a some people with minor attractions to either the opposite or same gender, then to those who are equally attracted to both genders.
How the fuck did I allege that homosexuality was choice?
For someone like me, who has been married to the same man for almost 28 years, if I do not act on my homosexual attractions, then I am celibate and very likely alone.
I should say that priests would take issue with the statement that they are "alone".
It is certainly easy for someone like you to point to others and say you should be alone all your life and celibate all your life. This is bigotry in action.
I would thank you to spare me the prate about "bigotry". I said nothing of what you "should" do, I told you the teachings of the Holy Church and what they are derived from in the Holy Scripture.
For many people who identify as heterosexual, they will have some degree of same gender attraction, however, most of them will never feel enough attraction to act on it. Many who identify as homosexual will have some minor attraction to the opposite gender, but again, not enough to ever act on it. The closer you get towards Bisexual, on the spectrum, the more likely someone may actually act on both attractions.
Irrelevant. We are discussing Scripture, not gender politics.
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Are you really going to argue that the Anglican/Episcopal church is not a major church in the world? It is certainly ‘major’ enough. This is game playing.
John 8 New International Version (NIV)
8 1 but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.
2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now, what do you say?” 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”
11 “No one, sir,” she said.
“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”
. . . . .
12 When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”
13 The Pharisees challenged him, “Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid.”
14 Jesus answered, “Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. 15 You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. 16 But if I do judge, my decisions are true, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. 17 In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is true. 18 I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me.”
First, I would rather follow the words of Jesus than to follow what you call the “True Meaning” of what he said. You are adding your own interpretation to the words of Jesus, rather than following what he is saying.Jesus does not condemn the sinful woman. He goes on to tell the people that they judge by human standards, but he, Jesus, judges no one. However, when he must judge, his decision is 'just' because it is made with God.
You go on to say, “He rather gruffly dismisses the adulteress.” This is not at all what is said by Jesus or indicated in the passage. This is cooked-up in your imagination and is not reality.
Then you are arrogant again in telling us what part of what Jesus said is “More Important.” You do not get to say what part is more or less important when Jesus speaks unless Jesus indicates that a part of what he says is more important. People like you keep distorting the words of Jesus and coming up with interpretations to suit your agenda, which is what you accuse me of.
It actually appears to me that Jesus is emphasizing judging and condemning people, but I would leave it to the reader to interpret. Alas, if you are reading it already set in your beliefs, you will read it the way you want it to be.
Love, and Universal Love of Your Fellow Mankind have very different meanings. Yes, you and others like to infer a lot, but in this case, Paul was explicit in saying "Universal Love for your Fellow Mankind," and one assumes he did so for a reason. Reaching a goal of "Universal Love for your Fellow Mankind," is something few people ever truly achieve, but it is certainly a very worthy spiritual goal. Telling people to "Love" is NOT the same message to people.
You ask for examples of the previous translators not considering the usage of the word-pairs in question in a cultural context, the language usage of the time, and doing a comparative analysis of other Greek literature of the time, to see how the word-pair was used. I give this in detail, which I already told you, in . I speak in detail about the ETYMOLOGY of Arsenokoites & Malakos, etc, etc.
When you look at how Theologians have refused to change their stance on a translation, despite so much evidence that they are wrong, it shows extreme bias. It is just like science deniers who refuse factual data and evidence because it does not match their beliefs. They start with their desired result that homosexual sex is a sin no matter what, then say whatever is needed to support it, and deny all other evidence.
Again you want more supporting data, etc. I told you to refer to the references in the bibliography of the paper you are commenting on, to find more supporting data. In years past, I would have given you tons of data, and in fact, I did this too many times, just to have it all discounted. It is a waste of time and energy, which I have precious little of to waste these days.
Scientists say that if there are environmental triggers to the genes to make the brain develop into a homosexual, bisexual or transgender brain, then it is taking place in the womb, as the fetus develops. Therefore, it would be the environment in the womb triggering genomic changes, such as hormonal changes, stress, etc.
When the person is born, their sexual orientation and gender identity have already been set. Studies show profound 'Gender Nonconformity' at very young ages. We already talked about brain differences that can be seen when imaging the brain. There are also often physical differences (significantly higher rates) as well, such as the direction the hair swirls at the crown of the head, relative finger lengths, narrow versus wide thumbprints, higher odds of being left-handed, as well as brain-based things like cross-gender empathizing and systemizing, facial recognition, verbal fluency, tendency to share more socially, and oddly, larger penis size for homosexual males, etc.
This is not new news. These studies have been going on and variations repeated for the last few decades, even before Kinsey. Even Kinsey made mistakes that were later caught. For example, when sampling homosexual men, he only sampled a very narrow population of gay men in San Francisco and New York bars and clubs. The greater majority of Sexual minority people do not even frequent such places, if ever, especially back then, when it could lead to being arrested, having your name and address published, losing professional licenses, losing your career, many losing their family and friends. This skewed his data and results considerably, concerning Gay men. But in science, other scientists keep testing the findings of others, which is how you end up getting multiple verifications of findings and a wider data pool to give better conclusions.
I am not going to play the game with you about Scientific papers. I used to spend hours looking through some of these sites at their references, finding their references were on a different subject, quoted wrong, etc. The science is there and clear enough. Those trying to debunk the science play tricks and are outright dishonest when it comes to their references, and how they will take things out of context and distort meanings, etc. I used to do this when discussing this issue in the past, but I find it is a waste of time since the person will refuse to believe anyway.
I had a teenage boy write to me very upset by a web page that is supposed to help homosexual teens. The web page said things like it is impossible for homosexuals to have loving relationships, then gave two references for studies on it, then stating that all homosexuals are promiscuous (again giving references), then said they go on to become anally incontinent, most are drug addicts and alcoholics, and on and on. turned out to be sponsored by a Christian church. It was all lies and each and every reference was a lie. I followed each link and found some studies were on a different subject, some were just opinion papers and not science or peer-reviewed, and some did not even exist, while other claimed a reference supported what they said, when in fact the reference did the opposite. I was able to get the page taken down. It is amazing how 'some' Christians feel justified to commit any number of sins, in order to harm others. Christians have been driving teens and younger children to suicide with their hate and bigotry. Yes, I could indeed give you references, but I am not going to because it is a waste of time. Please note that I do not lump all Christians together, because like all groups of people, they cover a wide spectrum of behavior. It is when a church itself, and/or it ministers/priests spread the INTOLERANCE and hate, enabling discrimination and violence against Sexual Minorities when I directly blame specific Christians, churches and religious groups.
Sorry, I assumed that if you were using 3 references supporting the notion that Homosexuality is a Choice, then you probably believe this too. If this assumption is wrong, I apologize. If people are not born as a homosexual, bisexual or transgender person, Christianity has been using this to say that sexual orientation is, therefore, a 'Choice.' I have heard this for the vast majority of my life. It is a touchy subject to someone who has been spit on by Christians, had violence against me, discrimination, had my own mother say that she would rather me be dead than a disgusting pervert (good Catholic that she was) and been vilified for the first 40 years of my life, all at the hands of Christians, who did it in the name of Christianity and God.
BIGOT: a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions. Bigotry typically comes from:
Being raised as a child by bigoted parents and/or in a bigoted environment, including religious teachings. IGNORANCE Believing that you are fundamentally better than others. A desire to feel Superior to others, which includes the desire to Dominate others, Subjugate others, Impose your will over others, and Control over others. FearThe Greater majority of Christians are absolutely intolerant of homosexuals, and most Christian churches are intolerant of homosexuals. The vast majority of Sexual Minority people believe that we are behaving with love and sexuality in the manner that God intended and which is natural, as found in the rest of nature. Obviously, this is a sharp difference of opinion. Christians around the world (the majority on a global basis) feel it is justified to torture, murder, bash, imprison and discriminate against sexual minority people. While the new Pope, for Catholics, is trying to be a bit more tolerant of Sexual Minorities, he falls way short.When Christian churches and people actively work to deny sexual minority people equal human rights, and actively discriminate against these people, it is called Bigotry. When Christians and Muslims separate out a group of people to vilify, it is called bigotry. I realize that you will say that Christianity says that it is the homosexual sex they are against, not the people, but this it is NOT how it plays out in the real world, by both the churches and by individual Christians.
When I was 13, my priest told us altar boys, "Boys who are physically attracted to other boys are an abomination in the eyes of God, doomed to burn for an eternity in the everlasting fires of Gahanna." I tired to kill myself about a week later. I had wanted to become a priest.
I believe that you have a right to believe that homosexual sex is a sin in all cases, but I also believe that Sexual Minority people have the right to live out their lives, expressing their love through sexuality, raising children if they desire, and living just like everyone else, without being subject to discrimination by Christians, Muslims or anyone else.
Christians have been imposing their beliefs on everyone else, by any means necessary, including genocide, for two millennia. Even for something as simple as a wedding cake, can't a Christian baker be a decent human being and make a profit on baking the cake? Some Christians believe that this is having the beliefs of others imposed on them. I do not agree, but if it is true, maybe a bit of affirmative action for Sexual Minorities is due, after 2 millennia of acts against humanity being committed against them.
EVERY YEAR in the USA, about 640,000 GBLT Kids, as young as 12 years old, go onto the street, and 39% of those were thrown out of their homes after “Coming Out” or discovery of their homosexuality or bisexuality, because of conflicts with moral and religious values. The vast majority of those parents are Christians. 30% of ALL CHILDREN who attempt or succeed in killing themselves, are Gay, Bisexual, Lesbian, or Transgendered. 85% of ALL GBLT Youth have thought seriously about committing suicide, all of this driven by hatred, bully, parental and religious teachings of intolerance and hatred against them.
Take a look at:
The Torture Of Homosexuals - 1950s to 1980s
The Faces of Teen Suicide (from Christian bigotry)
I can guarantee you that the vast majority of Christians will take no responsibility for driving children to suicide with their religious intolerance and hatred.
Sorry, but I really cannot continue this discussion. Answering these very long comments is coming out of my sleep time. I just don't have the time, and I do not see that any further discussion will advance anything any further. You are free to believe and express what you want, as I am free to believe and express what I want. We are not going to agree.
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I must say, the fact that the United Methodist Church is spilt over this saddens me. I don't believe homosexuality is a sin. God is love after all. Of course I understand the issue. The UMC is a united international denomination so while most Americans see this, it is a different story in Africa. I pray for the day when all Christians love and accept their homosexual neighbors as God called us to love all 
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It is sad. Christian churches who no longer believe that homosexual sex, within the confines of marriage or long-term commitment, is a sin, have not changed their minds without reason, they did so after examining the scripture carefully and realizing that Jesus never spoke against it and that their were mistranslations and misunderstandings in the scriptures. for some, it is just a matter of not yet being educated on the truth, are closed minded, or entrenched in tradition. Unfortunately, many Christians in the African countries, South America, Russia, United States, etc, are also rabidly bigoted against Sexual Minorities, separate from what they read in scripture. Scripture can be used as a way to hide their bigotry.
time will hopefully find all Christians United in love and welcoming Sexual Minorities.
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Words cannot described how much i love this. I so agree that homosexuality is not a sin and it's extremely saddening to see the hypocrisy of many religious people doing terrible deeds that are against their own religion.
I'm honestly depressed with humanity. I'm catholic and i never considered homosexuality to be a sin despite being straight (or so what i know about myself). In fact, i'm never aware of this bigotry from religious people throughout my life until i explored much in the internet and was shock to see so many artiest bashing on religion. My parents and school were pretty silent about whether homosexuality is a sin. My classmates do make gay jokes like "Oh that sound so gay" and all those jokes that were using gay means stupid in their context, but not once did anybody question about homosexual being a sin or not. When i asked this to my parent, to my relief, they are okay about homosexuality, but they believed that being homosexual is not normal. They told me about my cousin who turns out to be gay, much to my surprise, and his family is fine with it, but believed gay is not normal. I'm at least glad that his family is not abusing to him to the point where he must force to become straight because unfortunately that what most Christian fundamentalists do nowhere days.
It is ironic because in the Bible, Jesus never stated anything about homosexuality. They say that homosexuality is added to the Ten Commandments with the 6th Commandment: "You shall not commit adultery" But honestly, that commandment can go down to many similar deeds that you probably don't know what is a sin and what is not. You said something about the original text does not include homosexuality is a sin even under the Ten Commandments. Could you explain that for me? Additionally, if homosexuality is a sin, then heterosexuality is a sin. For most fundamentalists and back in old days, they viewed sex to be a sin because it makes you lose your innocence and makes you corrupt, which is stupid in my opinion. They use Mary and few other characters as a justification for why sex should not be a good thing. Jesus was born out of the Virgin Mary (which is viewed to be the ideal womanhood during the dark age), he himself is a celibate hero and all the other Apostles are also celibate from what i know. In all the four Gospels, Jesus never said what love should be and that he is silent about all the types of love in the Bible. He only said love others as you love yourself.
From what i observed on your research and attitude toward religion despite you being a humanist and not believing in God, you are very unbiased and i'm glad that you are. I cannot find any reliable profession to help me finding the contradictory on the Bible without any research behind the writings or background of it, usually it's either a bias person who would do anything to bash the religion or a Christian who have no idea on what is behind Jesus'teaching. but you really help with plenty of evidences to back it up. Not to mention your writing is eloquent. With you not using slang term, sarcasm, or tone that would make you look like bias, you clearly convey what you want to say through your writings, serious and flawlessly.
So is it okay to ask you for some info i'm concern with that involves the question to certain Christian, other religious, or American's treatment toward homosexual people topic in the future. I'm very fascinated by this and the history behind the corrupt church. So far i have some questions that concern me:
1. Is homophobia and Christian hypocrisy really strong in US or is it universal in the western world? I lived in Canada and i'm not sure if the treatment is the same as here. Because like for example, Canada legalized gay marriage in all of its 12 provinces, much to the Westboro Baptist Church's hatred, always promote their hateful, homophobic speech in America that Canada and UK prevent them from entering. So this could be the case?
2. Is masturbation a sin? I'm aware that many myths on masturbation are not true and that they benefit and i know this part of God's creation, but for me i feel uncomfortable. Masturbation is a sin to me because i'm getting addicted to it and i fear this will stray me from doing other important activities. Plus what does the Bible say about it (including the original text)? I really need to know because this is my main problem to me.
3. Is transgender surgery a sin? All i know from religion class that sin means away from god and others, damaging the creation you are given. People who went under transgender surgery willingly must face from difficulty of having their organs change and possible rejection. Correct me if i'm wrong on the transgender surgery. Because, it not like we choose which sex to want to be we we born so saying that you want to be an opposite sex physically is against God's creation. Unfortunately, trans also suffer treatment by fundamentalists...
4. There's a popular theory that everyone is bisexual, is this true? Because they say despite us claiming our certain sexual orientation, we are never honest with ourselves. Mostly we would be attractive to one sex, but little or no to other sex unless we witnessed something attractive so much that i will make us question our sexual orientation. Sorry that ramble, cannot properly explained it but this will explain it to you better than what i can: tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php…
5. Is it okay for a person to have mixed beliefs or share religion. Okay like me, i'm Catholic and i believed in God and Jesus and his teachings, but i also believed in Buddha and his teaching as well. I don't believe in reincarnation and despite with the Buddhist faith not believing in God or Gods, their teachings qualifies on the life that i agree with and feel relate to. Like how Buddha explained that desire is the source of suffering. This is true in many ways. There also other teachings that Buddha offered that is very related to Jesus. So for me, i'm technically Catholic with Buddhist faith influence. Another examples is Gandhi, who is said to be a Hindu with Jainism influence and Japan practice multiple religion's customs. Hence the phrase: Every Japanese is Shinto when he is born, a Christian when he marries and a Buddhist when he dies.
6. Is swearing a sin? Nowhere days, people say "Oh my God" or "Jesus!" out of exaggeration, not out of cursing against God or any religious figure. So would the context here be more important?
That's all the question for today. I know that it's going to be comfortable of talking with you. Your work and references have definitely help me and if i every come across a Christian homophobia, i will show them this. I wish to pray in the future, homosexual will no longer be consider as heretics and one day be accept among them. But knowing that the world must balance, this will probably never happen. Thank you for these interesting insights, and i praise that you fight and overcome the bigots that attacked you. You're a strong person and i hope you will stay strong even when the suffering will be harsher. May God blessed you (knowing you don't believe in God, but i'm sure God even cares for those who don't believe in him).
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Hi
Thank you very much for your words of support and the thought you have put into this issue. It is unusual for heterosexual youth to not only recognize that homophobia is wrong (even if you believe it a sin) and even more unusual to reach out in support. So I applaud you.
Just so you know, I was born and raised Catholic and was an altar boy who wanted to be a priest, until my priest told us boys, “Any boy who is attracted to another boy is an ABOMINATION in the eyes of God, doomed to burn for an eternity in the everlasting fires of Gahanna.” I tried to kill myself days later. I was 13. Had I died, we all know the priest would have seized, Good riddance to bad rubbish. There was no compassion or love in that man.
I am unbiased about religion itself because it gives people comfort in their time of need and suffering then good for them. I make a big distinction between Spirituality, teachings and religion itself. For example, the teachings of Jesus are a far cry from how most Christians live their lives and choose to interpret his teachings. Even in Buddhism, the practice of Buddhism is a far cry from the teachings of Buddha, and in Islam,the practice of it by most is far from Mohammed’s teachings in the sacred Qur’an. Religion and couches take teachings, interpret them, add their own rules and regulations, usually based on concentrating power and wealth, and controlling people. But frankly, this is what most people desire. They would not have to worry about theology, and loving your neighbor stuff, just give some rules to follow.
I have also studies some of Islam and Buddhism and Native American Traditions, but most of my research is in Biblical history, Catholic/Christian theology, and the culture and time of Biblical Judea.
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The interesting thing about Jesus not saying anything about homosexuality or same-sex sex, is that Jesus was born, raised and lived in Judea for approximately 34 years. Judea was part of the roman empire at that time and largely Hebrew Judea was occupied by not only many Roman Garrisons (soldiers) but also many roman citizens, especially in the urban areas, where Jesus was raised and his father worked as a Carpenter. Bt-the-way, a carpenter back than was like the Middle class, it was a good paying job and much of the work of construction and furnishings was for the wealthy Romans.
Homosexuality was actually seen as an integral part of both Greek and roman sexuality. Coptic Greek, the language that the New Testament was written in, has no word for same-sex sex or homosexuality. It was just part of sexuality. Roman men were expected to marry and produce and heir if possible, but most roman young men had to serve in the Roman army to be a citizen, and homosexual contact was rampant there, due to extended tours of years.
Jesus had to have know of homosexuality/same-sex sex, but chose to NEVER mention it, as witnessed by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Jesus did mention things he thought were important, sometimes multiple times, such as not judging other, seeing to your own soul. If you want to understand Christianity, the first thing to look at is the Two Great Commandments:
THE TWO GREAT COMMANDMENTS
If you are Christian Leaning, there is something incredibly simple given to you by Jesus Christ, to be your sole needed guiding light for determining your spiritual path and in determining Right from Wrong:
MATTHEW 22 [The New American Bible]
"Teacher, 21 which commandment in the law is the greatest?"
He said to him, 22 "You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.
This is the greatest and the first commandment.
The second is like it: 23 You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
24 The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments."
Technically, you need no other rules in Christianity than these two Great Commandments. Christ says that ALL of the law of the Old Testament and New Testament DEPEND on those TWO GREAT COMMANDMENTS. Obviously, if you love God and you Love your neighbor, you will not rape, covet, steal, lie, discriminate against them for being Gay, or any other of it. But this is not good enough for people. People demand to know EXACTLY what to do and what not to do to get in the pearly gates of Heaven. People do not NEED tons of rules, but people WANT tons of rules to guide them. However, there is a huge problem with focusing on the detailed rules of what to do and what not to do. You can follow every rule, break no rules, and even give to charity, yet still have a heart devoid of love.
GETTING INTO HEAVEN
You can follow all of the rules, and break no rules, even give to charity and do good works, and not get into Heaven—WHY? Because, YOU MUST LOVE GOD, and YOU MUST LOVE ALL OF YOUR FELLOW MANKIND. You must have Universal Love for your Fellow Mankind, or at least that is the Spiritual Goal. When Jesus turns the other cheek, when he is being robbed and offers more, it is because he loves the thief and loves the one doing him violence. Most of us will never get there 100%, but one needs to be trying to do so, to follow GOD THE FATHER'S GREATEST COMMANDMENTS.
Next, if you really want to understand the message of Jesus, you spells it all out in two great sermons:
• Sermon On The Mount Matthew 5 - Foundation Of Christianity,
• In the Sermon on the Plain, the New Testament, Luke 6
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In Christianity, ANY sex outside of marriage is considered a sin, and some Christian sects go to the extreme of saying that ANY sex , even in Marriage, is a sin if not for the direct purpose of procreation (breeding babies).
TEN COMMANDMENTS: Read the ten commandments. Do you see anything even hinting at homosexuality (there are different translation):
–. I am the Lord thy God
1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy
5. Honor thy father and thy mother
6. Thou shalt not kill (some use the word murder)
7. Thou shalt not steal
8. Thou shalt not commit adultery
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor
10. Thou shalt not covet (neighbor's house,wife, servants, animals, or anything else)
ADULTERY: the definition of adultery, from the Hebrew (language and law of the Ten commandments), and the Coptic Greek of the Christian translation (later into Latin), is: Sexual intercourse of a married woman with any man other than her husband. The crime can be committed only by and with a married woman; for the unlawful intercourse of a married man with an unmarried woman is not technically Adultery in the Jewish law. Under the Christian Biblical law, the detection of actual sexual intercourse was necessary to establish the crime (Lev. xviii. 20 [A. V. 19]; Num. v. 12, 13, 19).
Whoever told you that the commandment of adultery includes homosexuality is a liar. Neither Jewish or Biblical law suggests anything of the sort.
Another thing, the Ten commandments say, “Thou shalt not kill (some use the word murder),” yet Christians have been committing genocide (some at the orders of Catholic Popes), torture, mass murder, wars instigated by churches (as aggressors, including the Crusades, and Capital Punishment, where in the United States we murder people. Murder is the intentional killing of others. This is why Christian Quakers refuse to kill in wartime (but will work in medical aid in war), and will not kill even to defend themselves, or as punishment. The vast majority of Christians read read “Thou shalt not kill/murder,” followed by a lot of non-existed fine print, claiming it is Ok to murder int he the name of God, murder to punish people, and to protect yourself. Yet, Jesus expressly say to turn the other cheek, not to defend yourself. In other words, Christians often do what they want, then find ways to justify it, or use words in the bible to crucify, torture, and murder homosexuals, and justify it with the word of God, as they did with slavery. The Supreme court of the United States got around the Bible by claiming black people were not actually humans, and were sub-human and not covered undertake Bible.
HOMOPHOBIA: Almost all homophobia and atrocities against Sexual Minorities is directly related to Christianity and Islam.
For research, you can check out:
GLOBAL MAP of Homophobia: www.citylab.com/politics/2014/…
State Sponsored Homophobia Report: ilga.org/what-we-do/state-spon…
NEAR PAST:
If you would like to see read about the virtue, murder, imprisonment, brutality, and harassment.discrimination agains homosexuals, in my life time, please see The Torture Of Homosexuals - 1950s to 1980s all at the hands of Christians.
TODAY:
Homosexuals are being executed, tortured and imprisoned in large parts of the world today, especially in Arabic nations, many other Muslim countries, Africa, Russia and Uganda. Extreme Homophobia and persecution/discrimination/harassment of Sexual Minorities is strong in Eastern Europe and parts of of South America. See the above link to the global map.
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Next, the only place in the New testament Translations from Coptic Greek to Latin and the modern languages, occurs in Paul, such as in Corinthians and Romans. At the time of the translations, Christianity had destroyed most of Greek and Roman writings, and then the surviving texts were typically bleached, turned 90° and then used to write Christian Prayers, etc, on. Translator then claimed that two wades, paired together meant same-sex sex. Yet, this same word pair never means that anywhere else in Coptic Greek writings. It is something translators made up, a lie. I go into great detail explained the two words and they actual usage, as well as any word pairing, showing that the translations about homosexuality are a lie. Did you need me to going into the detail for you?
Some accuse me and the many scholars and experts in Coptic Greek and the culture of Biblical Judea of question the word of God, but nothing could be furthermore the truth. We question the lies of the TRANSLATORS, NOT the original Coptic Greek manuscripts written by the apostles, etc.
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YOUR LIST OF QUESTIONS: I don’t have time to give supportive bible references to my answers, sorry. I do volunteer Peer counseling to Sexual Minority Youth in crisis, so I do not have much of any tome to spare.
1. Answer above.
2. NO.
The most common argument against masturbation is that it is self-abuse, but this is not directly ever stated in the bible. The typical Christian Biblical argument is: Corinthians 6:18 (NIV): “Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body.” This totally depends on how you interpret “Sexual Sins” because it does not go on to say. Some Christian churches do not include masturbation in this and some do. Some start to quote the Old Testament, which I can argue into the ground. Many church rules are hinged in very vague things like this.
i should also point out that I list many Christian and even Catholic churches who believe that Homosexual sex is NOT A SIN, when in the confines of marriage/holy union (homosexual long-tern committed romantic relationships). This means than many Christians and their churches do not interpret the original Coptic Greek of Paul, as having to do with homosexuality. this shows how the translations about homosexuality is not at all universally accepted by Christian, scholars, Christian archaeologist and theologians.
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Addiction is defined as when something has reached the point where it is interfering with your ability to be happy, content, fulfill your dreams (like school, career, art…), relationships (freinds & Romantic), etc. If masturbation has reached that point, then I suggest working at setting limits, like an average of 1 to 2 times a day. Masturbation relieves sexual tension and actually helps you avoid being too tempted to be sexual before you are ready. Is your masturbation interfering in your life, other than guilt and shame? Because eliminate the illegitimate guilt and shame your feel and it may not be a problem in your life.
Boys and girls used to be married by ages 13 to 15, and did not live very long. Your biological imperative starts young, and this is an imperative given by god. It is not a bad thing. However, if you indulge in actual sex, this can disrupt your life with unwanted pregnancy (when you are not prepared to care for a baby or support it) and possible disease. I advise my young people to please at least wait for someone you truly care for and he/she cares for you, and ideally you wait for love. Since you are Catholic, you are expected to wait until marriage, if you believe in that.
I can tell you that the one thing that will damage you is to have love and sexuality torn apart, and this happens when someone engages in sex with a lot of partners, with no emotional connection (Hooking-up). Pornography addiction can be a problem if people decide that it is easier than trying to meet real people, date, and look for love and healthy relationships. I somehow doubt you are addicted to either masturbation or pornography.
Some Christians say that homosexuality is unnatural, yet it is fond in many thousands of animal and other species, inlacing monkeys/apes, giraffes, bison, penguins and on and on. This so obviously part of Gods plan. The genes involved with homosexuality are ties with Fecundity (producing or capable of producing an abundance of offspring) in families, passed via the female line, which is a big reason why homosexuality survives evolution. The most abundant families tend to produce the most homosexuals, and the more Fecundity a family has, the more it thrives, expands and survives.
By the time you are born into the world, your sexual orientation/ gender identity is set, and is even found in brain differences in infants.
3. In Islam, even they do not see Transgender surgery as a sin, because they, in their twisted way, see it as correcting a persons gender. When we are in the fetus, the sexing-out of the fetus takes place during two periods, first the brain sexes-out an then the body. rarely, the brain starts sexing out as one gender, and something happens to cause the body to sex-out as the other gender. these people feel like they are in an alien body from a young age. It is the BRAIN that determines true gender. A transgender person who decided to do top, bottom or both surgeries, is only correcting the physical body to match the gender of their brain. Remember that there are brain differences between genders, and between Straight and Gay brains. Also, remember that Transgender is NOT a sexual Orientation, it is a gender, and thus a Transgender person will have a Sexual orientation. A Female to Male Transgender who is attracted to females is actually Straight, even though pre-surgery it is a female looking body wanting to be with females. After surgery it is a male body seeking females.
Try to remember that Religion lags far behind science, as seen by the Catholic church killing people for saying the earth was round and the earth revolved around the sun, etc. this continues to this day. The Catholic church now says that people really are born homosexual, which you would think proves this is Gods plan, but the church then says god expects such people to suffer all their lives celebate, to prove their faith in god. For some reason, god randomly picks millions of people to suffer like this, but not the rest?
4. Refer to my paper
Are You Gay, Bi or Straight?
DETERMINING SEXUAL IDENTITY
For many people, there is no question at all about what their Sexual Orientation and Identity are, starting at a very young age. But for many others, it can be very confusing and traumatic. ALL of us are a blend of Straight and Gay. People who are almost completely Straight or Gay usually know how they are different from very young ages. Everyone else will have some someone degree of Confusion and Questioning. Many young people have a small amount of latent homosexuality, enough to confuse them, but not enough to be a Bisexual. Others can be confused by having a friend they love dearly. Some young people are late bloomers, becoming sexually aware later than most others. For others, there is also confusion about Gender. For others, they may not have sexual feelings at all.
Some people may not become aware of their homosexual nature, or may not recognize, realize, or acknowledge their homo Are You Straight, Gay, or Bi?. Please notice that ALL human beings are on a sexual orientation spectrum, a mix of Straight and Gay, distributed over a bell curve. Please see this image to we an example of a Bell curve: mmiller.gnomio.com/pluginfile.…
The majority of humans are mostly Straight, or Primarily Straight and Secondarily Homosexual. If you are 85% Straight and 15% Gay, you would never notice consciously notice your Gay component. If you are 75% Straight and 25% Gay, there may be enough gay in you to enjoy a sexual contact, but not enough to form a romantic relationship. If you are 60% straight and 40% Gay, there might be enough gay in you to form a romantic relationship.
Sexual Orientation is NOT determined by sexual attraction, it is dreaminess by Romantic Attraction, who you romantically want to share your life with. If you are a woman sexually attracted to both men and women, but find you are only ever romantically attracted to men, then you are effectively Straight, not bisexual, in my opinion. If you are romantically attracted to both men and women then you are bisexual.
But to answer your question, all humans are a blend of Straight and Gay. If you choose to define Bisexual as as any human attracted to both male and female, then this would cover most people on earth, but that is an idiotic definition because it has no practical application. Your sexual Orientation is ultimately about who you fall in love with.
Also, appreciating beauty in NOT sexual attraction. I am very Gay and have never had a sexual response to a female, but I find many females to be amazingly beautiful, so do not confuse the two.
5. Spirituality is all about your personal connection to your belief system/God(s). Religion is a group affair, like an exclusive club with tons of rules. You can be a Christian and follow the teachings of Jesus, and follow teachings of buddha, without being in conflict with the teachings of Jesus. When I was a boy, the Catholic church taught us that if you were not Catholic, you automatically went to purgatory or hell. Churches are made up of PEOPLE, and people are VERY FALLIBLE, and their bigotry, biases, and desire for power and control over others is powerful, and influences churches.
I have a spiritual belief system, although i do not believe in Gods as most people define them. I have studied multiple faiths and find a lot of overlap and interesting ideas. I love parts of buddhism but do not believe in reincarnation. I love parts of Native American Traditions, but not all of them. I love many teachings of Jesus. I would bet I live a more Christian-like life than most Christians and adhere to a very strict moral code of my own.
It is YOU who will answer to your god (if that is your belief) not your church, not your preacher or religion. You answer for your own behavior. To blindly follow rules and edicts from churches can put you directly in sin, like christian sects who teach women to be completely subservient and slave to men, all justified in Paul and the old Testament. Do you really believe this is God’s intent, after reading what jesus says?
Sin depends on INTENT. If you know in your heart that something is wrong, especially if it results in harm to another and your benefit, and you do it anyway, this is sin. But we humans need tolerant from mistakes. To me, sin is repeating these mistakes, choosing not to learn from them. If you steal a pencil from a classmate and feel horrible, then decide, I will never do this again, and you never did, is there a black spot on your should? These are things I asked myself.
Churches makes up vast numbers of rules, but now many are directly founded in the words of Jesus, and some go against the intent of Jesus. Just read those two sermons above, and see how Christian churches do the opposite of what Jesus says.
6. Again, for me, sin is in the intent. I frankly avoid swearing. I went to sea on ships where every few words were swear words, and it would bleed into my words at home, so I decided to stop it. Sometimes I blurt out sometime if I stub my toes or something. If you say, “God dammit’ without thou have hitting your finger, did you mean to damn god? If you say “Oh my god,” often that is like a pray, like when you see a car accident.
If a native person in in a Brazilian jungle is following tribal practices Christians feel is a sin, is he or she committing a sin? Some African tribes do wife sharing as a larger family group, sharing tasks, child rearing etc. They intend no wrong and work hard to provide for their children, etc. I think it is arrogant for Christians or others to presume to know God’s intent, mostly based on words supposedly translated through “prophets” without mistake.
The books of the New Testament for haggled over in 3 North African Synods, deciding to ban certain books of the bible and keep others, under the heavy influence of the roman empire (starting with Constantine and the first Council Of Nicea) who want a Patriarchal structured church so that it could be used as the official Empire church, Including support for slavery and subjection of women. Luke spoke of women deacons, and the gnostic church (Easter Christian church) had female priests. But they lost the vote in the first counsel of Nicea, and the gnostic were ordered to convert or die, and they were hunted, men , women and children and murdered, all their texts and writing burned and destroyed (until found in the dead sea scrolls).
Anyway, they put together this Bible, sent it to the Pope, who then declare that every single word intros bible was as if God him self wrote it. So it is only the word of one Pope who declared each book of the bible to be true, and not the boss that were not included, like the Gospel of Mary, and a number of other gospels. It is PEOPLE telling you what god said and meant, and then they go further and make up even more rules, claiming it is to help guide you to heaven.
Ok, this took way longer than I expected and I must run. All the best,
Matthew
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Thank you very much! I, again, appreciate your effort on writing and answering my questions. The more i'm reading and seeing the error translation of the Bible, the more i'm losing faith in humanity.
When i asked about whether masturbation is a sin, swearing is a sin, etc, i was thinking about what my religion teacher show me the examples of breaking the Ten Commandments. Such as:
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain - swearing, blasphemy, etc
8.You shall not commit adultery- homosexuality, masturbation, adultery, sex outside marriage, etc
You know the drill. These ridiculous examples and so-call of how these are sin to the Ten Commandments probably come from the Catechism of the Catholic Church - the source of all the Catholic's teachings. It said stuff about how such as committing homosexual practice, masturbation, and especially suicide is capable of sending one to hell. Considering that the CCC took teachings from the mistranslated texts as you explained here, i wouldn't be surprise since this could be the source of all the bigotry that are committed from the Christians.
Whoever said that committing a sin send one directly to hell clearly don't know the Christian beliefs/core. There's always a misconception about Christianity on how you can only go to heaven by good self or deeds and can only go to hell by bad deeds or self. This is entirely wrong on Christian core beliefs because one, this is part of Zoroastrianism. Zoroastrianism believes in the duelists of good vs evil even on the account of going to heaven or hell and all while it influenced the Abrahamic religions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam), two, Christianity don't believe in the typical "good/bad deeds can send you to heaven/hell" concept because Jesus said this: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." They say that if you believe Jesus died for your sins, then you will go to heaven because Jesus sacrifice himself for everybody to go to heaven. If you don't believe Jesus died for your sin, then you won't go to heaven because how strong one believes in Jesus and truly do his true teachings is capable of going to heaven. If you think about the "good/bad deeds can send you to heaven/hell", it's extremely contradictory because everybody is in the grey morality and everyone sin. Since everyone have their good and bad self, which plane they're going to? Heaven or hell? Sin is inevitable and that why Jesus is send down for us to be forgiven instead of suffering with our sins.
The reason why i asked these questions is because i'm curious with all the contradictory in the Bible such as Paul's letters until you answered it for me. I'm more interested in how false translation are created.
I'm hoping that most Christian can read some of your amazing analysis because these are extremely important. They should know the history on the errors that has been edited in the Bible and deeds that are committed due to using the Bible as an excuse for their agenda. Famously such as the the Spanish Inquisition and the violent actions toward the homosexual you just mentioned. Ironically i find those who claimed that they're doing in the name of God are only committing blasphemy against God because they're giving God or their religion a negative reputation and claiming that this is God's work will only remove what He truly want.
As all while i found myself heterosexual and thanks to your "Are You Straight, Gay, or Bi?" paper, throughout my whole life i believe homosexual is not bad because here's the thing: homosexual love others the same way straight people love others and why should this be a condemnation? My cousin who i mentioned to be gay, right now treat others normally like most people do unlike what people thought about the stereotypes of gay people. He doesn't throw himself on every guy he meet, doesn't have Stockholm syndrome, or act mentally disable because he has no mental problems contrast to how media depict them. He's getting good marks, shy and timid, and act formal toward me so really, i see no problem in him whatsoever as oppose to the hypocrites of the Church. Speaking of media, i heard people's complain on how the media depict gay people.
I admit that i don't truly understand how the gay people suffer. They have to suffer torture, murder, and to hide their sexual orientation. Additionally, to be excluded from the majority? I can tell it's way worse than simply dying alone or losing a love one. This is thousand times worse! Force to endure pain from your abusive religion and family who only preach on to change your sexual orientation, to have nobody by your side, to not speak up, and getting torture simply because they're gay, this is brutal. I know what they did, but i feel that i don't understand how they feel. To go through that much suffering all while i'm just here ranting on about how humanity shit themselves to this brutality, i'm not making things better. This can only continue if people can help others especially someone like you, who knew this experienced of sadness. Not understanding one's feeling is usually why saving (instead of helping, there's the difference between saving and helping) someone from bullying or suffering fail.
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I am happy that I could be of some help in answering your questions.
Did you see the big news that the American Presbyterian Church now performs Gay weddings? They also belief that the Bible is not against homosexuals or homosexual sex, within the confines of marriage/holy union. This idea of mistranslation is not coming from a few homosexuals, it is embraced by major Christian churches and a number of smaller ones.
I have written a bit more to help clarify some things you just raised:
When Jesus gave us the Two Great Commandments, this is the roadmap to heaven. It is not enough to just love God, love your spouse, children and best friends, you are required to reach a spirituality where you can have a Universal Love for your fellow mankind, and that included the person who murdered your son, raped your daunter and robbed you. When you understand this, it makes it easy to understand when Jesus talks about turning the other cheek, and when a robe demands your shirt you offer him your pants kind of thing.
The next step is to understand what is meant by ‘LOVE’ in the commandments. The dictionary will tell you that love means: an intense feeling of deep affection. Bt this definition is vernacular and not theological. If you look at all forms of love, family, friendship, romantic, your cat or dog, your car or doll, etc, they all have certain things in common. The common roots of all forms of love are: Affinity, Rapport, Connection, Sharing and Intimacy, but the most important of these things is Connection, Sharing and Intimacy.
We can Share of ourselves, Connect with others, and be Intimate with others, on a number of different levels, such as: Emotionally, Spiritually, Socially, Intellectually, Sharing of the Heart, Physically, Sensually, Sexually, and the Sharing of Space and Time (living together, roommates, growing up with siblings).
Therefore, how do you apply this to all of your fellow mankind? For me, the easiest way to get there is through COMPASSION and look for the things that connect us all together, what we all share.
Something else critical to finding universal love is FORGIVENESS. Forgiveness is very misunderstood by most people. We constantly so how many Christians demand retribution, demand the death penalty, claiming they can never have closure until the murderer of their child is also murdered (via the Death Penalty), etc. But this is contrary to the teachings of both Jesus and Christianity. There is a big difference between Justice and punishment, and revenge and retribution, with revenge and retribution being things of evil. Seldom does the death of a perpetrator ever give closure.
FORGIVENESS
You cannot have true happiness in your life without Forgiveness, and it is a central tenant of my life. Forgiveness is a key to mental recovery and healing, but few understand it. What does it mean to forgive? Most people think of forgiveness as when someone begs for forgiveness, but this is the official DEFINITION OF FORGIVENESS:
Forgiveness is the process of LETTING GO of resentment, indignation, anger and other negative emotions, as a result of a perceived offense, difference or mistake, and ceasing to demand punishment or restitution, while replacing the negative emotions with positive attitudes, including compassion and benevolence.
Forgiveness is NOT the same as condoning (failing to see the action as wrong and in need of forgiveness), excusing (not holding the person or group responsible for the action), pardoning (granted only by a representative of society, such as a judge), and forgetting (removing awareness of the offense from consciousness; to forgive is more than just not thinking about the offense).Mahatma Gandhi contended that, “The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is an attribute of the strong.”
Benefits of Forgiveness
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If you have learned two languages, you see how complex translation can be. For example, let us say you fluent in English and French and you have been asked to target a novel written in French in 1780. In the case of the the New Testament, you are dealing with a gap in time and culture and language drift of over 2,000 years. As a Translator, you should immediately realize you have three major problems:
First, French words in 1780 might have meant different things than they do know and some words are not even used today, and some concepts and science we know now, they did not know then. This is language and cultural drift. Words have changed meaning in my life time. I grew up with he word ‘Charity’ meaning “Universal Love for your fellow mankind,” and now the word is translated in the Bible as ‘Love,’ and people now use the word to means giving to those in need.
Second, the way words are used are influenced by the culture of the time. Back in the 1970s, when I came home from being at sea and the Academy for years, he told me he bought a new stereo system and it was really BAD. So i suggested he take it back to the store, and you looked at me like I was insane. I had no idea that ‘bad’ now meant really good. I am a ‘Valley boy’ or Valley girl’ depending on how you see it, lol. This meant that I grew up in the San Fernando Valley long ago. You know, “Gag me with a Spoon.”
If you were translating these things 250 years later, and knew nothing of the culture, you would not translate ‘Bad’ and awesome, you would translate it as being of poor quality; inferior or defective. You would have no clue what a ‘Valley Girl’ is or what ‘Gag me with a spoon’ means. Do you even know what ‘Groovy’ means, a word popular of my youth?
Third, the problem of the Translator’s cultural and personal biases. When you watch the news or read a newspaper or magazine, what you see and read is heavily influences by your feelings, views and opinions. If you are pro-war or anti-war, if you are Christian, Jew, Buddhist, Muslim or Hindu, if you are younger in age or older in age, if you are an American, or Russian, or Democrat or Republican. This bias of interpretation can result in two people reading the same thing and interpreting it in opposite ways.
For example, if the Christian translators of that time and culture are homophobic bigots, then they are likely to interpret words and phrases to be against it, even if that is not the intent of the author (such as St. Paul).
In the first millennia of the Catholic church, they were trying to court pagans to join the church and they even changed the birth of Jest and the death of Jesus to match pagan holidays. Homosexuality eventually became associated with Paganism, since it was so acceptable and openly practiced by pagans in Europe and the far East, etc. There was a turning point in the Church, after the first millennia, where the church switched from trying to convert european pagans to destroying them, hunting them down and killing them, exterminating them. You can also see this attitude play-out when Christianity came to the Americas and Africa.
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BIBLICAL EXAMPLE — Just one small excerpt from my paper: The New Testament & Homosexuality
THE ETYMOLOGY OF ARSENOKOITES
It is tempting to look at the etymology of Arsenokoites (used in Paul) to find out what it means. However, the etymology of a word gives only its history, not its meaning. In English for example, the etymology of the phrase lady killer suggests either a lady who kills, or a person who kills ladies, but it really means a man who knows how to charm ladies. The only reliable way to determine the meaning of a word is from how it is used, in what context it is used. The way Arsenokoites is used indicates that it does not mean Homosexual. However, the etymology of this word does give a clue (and it is no more than a clue) about what it means.
Arsenokoites is a compound word, formed from arseno- which means men, male humans, and -koiati, which refers to the penetrating partner in sexual intercourse. When these two parts are put together, forming a word meaning something like man-penetrator, it is not clear if it means a man who penetrates, or a man who is penetrated, or it could mean something completely different. We can get a little more context from the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Old Testament.
The word Arsenokoites appears in the Septuagint, in Leviticus 20:13: “hos an koimethe meta arsenos koiten gunaikos.” It might be the case that Arsenokoites is a contraction of arsenos koiten. If it is, then Paul possibly meant to repeat the Leviticus prohibition. That restriction is not a general prohibition of male-male sex, but is a prohibition of a specific sexual act . If Leviticus is the origin of the word, and the origin of the word gives an indication of the meaning, then Arsenokoites refers to just that sexual act, and that is a sexual act that both same-sex and opposite-sex couples can practice. John the Faster’s use of Arsenokoitia supports this suggestion. Therefore, Paul’s uses of Arsenokoites are injunctions against certain types of sexual activity, not against same-sex relationships.
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HOMOSEXUALS SUFFERING FROM HOMOPHOBIA
How Sexual Minorities suffer from homophobia depends on where you life. One thing the vast majority of us share in the world is growing up being told by the culture, peers and often parents and churches is hat you were born bad that there is something wrong with you and if anyone finds out, you will be hated, rejected, abused and discriminated against, and live in fear. This might be felt a little or to the extreme, depending on where you live.
You are typically forced to live a LIE, hiding who you really are, often unable to talk to anyone about it. I have worked with young people who even had parents tell them that they would not care about sexual orientation, but still be terrified to come-out to those parents, because the stakes are so high.
It is also much harder to identify other like you, which is very isolating, and it is very difficult to impossible (depending) to form any kind of romantic relationship like all the other kids do.
You can start to feel like you are on the outside looking in, never a part of the social fabric around you.
Sexual Minority people are objectified, seen as this OBJECT FAG (rather than as individual people) which most people identify with a series of LIES about Sexual Minority people. You grow-up and then have to live in a culture with constant homophobic jokes, put-downs, harassment, discrimination, stereotypical lies and comments and being seen in stereotypical ways that have nothing to do with the truth of reality. In the USA, we have a State passing a law to ban cities and local governments from preventing discrimination against Sexual Minorities. In other words, some cities had passed laws prohibiting discrimination based on Sexual Orientation, and now the State government and the majority of the people of the State want to prevent that and allow full discrimination.
If you are in an area of high bigotry, such as Russia, where people hunt sexual minorities to abuse, torture and sometime murder you, you live in constant terror. Arab countries and many other Muslim countries, as well as Christian countries, you face imprisonment and/or death. Discovery of your homosexuality would mean the end of your life as you ever knew it, no career or work, no freinds or family, constant humiliation, harassment, abuse and facing starvation.
The more suppressive the culture and laws, the more difficult to downright impossible it can be to ever form a romantic relationship, reducing homosexuals to occasional sex at immense risk. It can be a very lonely and scary life. This is why the suicide rate is so high, especial with Sexual Minority Youth.
Christian and Muslims claim the high suicide rate is from their deviant lifestyle, but kids killing themselves as young as 11 years old is obviously nothing about lifestyle. The high suicide rate is from the direct hatred and discrimination of Christians and Muslims worldwide. This is where people feel they can be bigots and to discriminate against and harm others, without guilt, because they claim their religion gives them permission.
Even in most movies and TV shows that have Gay and Lesbian characters, they usually depict them in very stereotypical and inaccurate ways that do not represent the vast majority of Sexual Minorities.
Anyway, that is generally what most Sexual Minority people in the world face.
All the best,
Matthew
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Hi, Actually, all references match pretty much all english language translations of the Bible. I have an Application that allows me to compare up to a dozen different bibles translations for any given passage. In some places I actually show a number of different translations for the same passage, so that people can see the variances. I did used a Catholic bible and King James bible a lot, but also others.
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I've read some of it but it all sounds like opinions and the ideas of "modern" commentators. The teaching of the Church has not changed since Christ. It has been explained and studied, but there is no way something like that would have gone from wrong to right (or vice versa). Even the modernist, liberal popes of late have not gone so far as to condone homosexuality, though they have done so many other terrible things that go against almost 2,000 years' of doctrine and tradition.
Yes, I am a Catholic myself, and certainly am open to any and all discussion, but this is something that goes against the Catholic grain so much it just can't make sense. Of course, we are not against the people themselves, it is only sin that we abhor (in ourselves or others - because it offends the One we love: our Creator). It is only by the grace of God that we are not murderers, thieves, politicians, etc (slight sarcasm). It is grace which helps us. I pray for all, including myself and my homosexual friends/acquaintances. We all need help - some in this area, some in other areas.
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The only true words of Jesus, as witnessed by his disciples, are in the original compilation of New Testament, which was completely written in Coptic Greek. Every single translation since then is an interpretation of the original text by men, men who are very fallible. The first translations into Latin and eventually into English (King James) were done without a sound knowledge of the Coptic Greek used in the time of Jesus in Judea. I give a detailed look at the correct translations of the two words, or word-pair that are claimed to mean Homosexual sex in Paul, but in fact do not mean that at all based on modern scholars of Greek language and culture from the time of Jesus. You cannot translate a language without it being put on the cultural context of the time, in Judea, in the time of Jesus. Coptic Greek does not even have a word for homosexual sex.
I could give you the full dissertation on the translations but you would not listen anyway, because alas New Zealanders are apparently narrow-minded and closed-minded, according to you.
I can give you examples of translation changes just within the last 50 years that have changed the meaning of the text, such as Paul's "Faith, Hope and Charity" being translated in a number of bibles, including the St. Joseph's Catholic Bible, to "Faith Hope and Love." The primary definition of 'Charity' was "Universal Love For Your Fellow Mankind." Substituting "Universal Love For Your Fellow Mankind" with "Love" is a fundamental change in the intent of the text. This is a progressive change away from the original New Testament that has been taking place for over 2,000 years.
Pope John XXIII commission Biblical scholars to go back as far as possible to original texts to do a new translation into the modern languages. The english version of that contains the chance I just illustrated above, along with others. My copy of the Catholic Bible has a chapter dedicated to the problems of translation.
Finally, when God coded homosexuality not only into the DNA of humans but into thousands of mammals and other creatures of Nature, it had to be done with purpose. The official Catholic catechism states that homosexuals are born that way. But now people like you come along and decide that God's intent was to create a class of human beings born a sin. It has been proven that it is impossible to convert homosexuals to heterosexuals, despite the lies you have been told. Science is clear on this.
When you decide that a class of people born black, or born any other way, are inherently bad, then you are a bigot, as this perfectly matches the definition of bigotry. Hiding behind religious beliefs does not make it Ok. The New Testament does NOT say that homosexual sex is a sin. The New Testament does say that ANY sex outside of marriage is a sin. It does not say a marriage conducted by a priest. I happen to be in a legal marriage and I have many freinds who were married in a Christian church (I can give you a long list of Christian churches doing Gay marriages), but any long-term fully committed and loving relationship that is intended to be a marriage, is a marriage.
You might wonder why it is that so many Christian churches do NOT see homosexual sex, within the confines of a marriage or long-term committed relationship, as a sin. Entire branches of Christianity have seen the light by looking at the true translation of the Coptic Greek.
The list is growing all the time, including some Catholic churches, but here are some I grabbed for you:
Churches that Perform Gay Marriages, Ordain Gay Ministers, and teach that Homosexual Sex, within the confines of a Gay Marriage or Committed and Loving Relationship, IS NOT A SIN:The Metropolitan Community Church
The Episcopal Church
The Evangelical Lutheran Church
Presbyterian Church
The Unitarian Church
The Unitarian Universalists
Unity School of Christianity
Community of Christ
Evangelical Anglican Church In America
Reconciling Pentecostals International
The National Catholic Church of America
Catholic Apostolic Church in North America
United Catholic Church
Orthodox-Catholic Church
Evangelical Catholic Church
Reformed Catholic Church
Christ Catholic Church
Ecumenical Catholic Communion
Liberal Catholic Church
Independent Catholic Christian Church
Independent Greek Orthodox Church of the United States (Greek Orthodox)
Moravian Church
CANADA:
United Church of Canada: Affirming Churches Only
The following are as above or at least welcoming, but based on a Church-by-Church basis, as set by the Congregation:Lutheran Churches
Quaker (Religious Society of Friends)
Pentecostal
Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)
Baptists [Very few Baptists churches are welcoming to Sexual Minorities, but some are. Go here www.awab.org to find welcoming Baptists churches. United Methodist Church [Some Methodist churches are welcoming to Sexual Minorities. Go here www.rmnetwork.org to find welcoming Methodist churches.
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Yes, the Catholic Church and all those protestant churches are in quite a bad shape at the moment. Our recent Popes, since Paul VI are teaching things which go against almost 2,000 years' of Church teaching. They have nothing to back their modernist teaching with. Whereas the traditionalists have all of Church history and dogma behind them. The fact that the modern Church and the world are becoming so "buddy-buddy" is an obvious sign of this, for Our Lord did not come to make friends with the world, but to overcome it. When our Popes cave in to media pressure and pressure from liberal lobbies, that is not a good sign at all. It is what we call the "crisis of the Church".
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Actually the old church got things totally wrong through absolute ignorance and science proved them wring again and again. The church teachings had to change accordingly. This was the purpose of Vatican II, to bring the church teachings in alignment with reality.
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Vatican II is completely ambiguous and the fruits are there for everyone to see: mainly only elderly priests left (very few vocations); young people are not interested; rock concerts in churches; priests who do not believe in the true presence; laity taking over the tasks of the priests; empty churches; strange, unheard before teachings; religious no longer interested in wearing their habits, etc. and watching TV in monasteries; homosexual infiltration of the priesthood resulting in the rape of little boys, etc., etc., etc.
No, the new church (which has a very short history of only 46 years) has gotten everything completely wrong. Christ did not come upon earth to make friends with all the other religions - he came to fulfill the prophecies and to establish His kingdom on earth (which can not be a mish-mash of all religions).
"Reality" is not liberal teachings and giving way to pressure groups. Reality is reality. The teachings of the Church should not bend down before the teachings of the world (which are per definition in absolute conflict with the teachings of God and His Church - as He has said many times Himself).
Science has not proven the Church wrong at all. If you're talking about evolution, don't forget it is only a theory, and many scientists are against that theory.
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Vatican II has nothing to do with the exodus of both priests and Catholics. There is no proven connection. Their were some very unhappy traditionalists who believed the mass should only be said in Latin (I had to learn Latin to be an altar boy) and the many other changes, but it actually resulted in more people remaining in the church. The sharp decline happened not just to Catholics but to other mainstream Christian religions as well. This loss has more to do the better education of people and a liberation of youth culturally, who see a big disconnect with the practice of Christianity and their beliefs, while other left because some churches stay n conflict with science, rather than embracing it. Science does not disprove God or the teachings of Jesus. The Catholic church is so out of touch with the rest of humanity that it will probably continue to decline until it makes some major changes.
Who are you to say What the intentions of Jesus were about other religions when Jesus never said anything to support your position. You dare to put meaning and words into the mouth of Jesus that were never uttered. Jesus in fact had a very, very clear message of Love, of turning the other cheek, of non-violence. I highly suggest that you actually read Matthew, Mark, Luke and John to see for yourself what the message of Jesus is.
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Hello there, inspiredcreativity ,
Very interesting to read all that you have to say to justify your homosexuality. I am heterosexual myself, and I find all that you have said remarkably well-worded, well-researched (from a modern point of view, which I find odd as you are discussing what have as their core Eternal Truths taught by an Ancient Church) and condescending. The problem with your arguments is that you use contemporary and non-Catholic arguments, arguments that hold up human rights exclusive to the Divine. The bible you quote? What is its date? Do you know that newer versions of the Bible have had whole books ripped out of them? The Douay Rheims Bible is one that keeps within itself all the books traditionally handed down from the time of the Apostles. But I am not going to throw Bible quotes at you. It's a waste of time. People have been falsely interpreting the Bible for centuries. Instead, I am merely going to say to you that your wild efforts to condone and justify your unnatural and perverse way of life by your humanistic volunteer is a work which in fact enables you to "counsel" that is, corrupt, susceptible young minds. So you will fair better on judgment day? In front of a just Judge? How do you sleep at night? Don't think you can cover your sins by humanistic work. You are living a lie.
The Catholic Church has never condoned homosexuality. Why? Because, although the Catholic Church thrives on Grace, Grace builds on the Natural Order. Don't know what that means? Then don't attempt to quote Canon Law. Simple. Go read the Summa Theologica. Go read The Catechism of the Council of Trent. Educate yourself, and then attempt to justify your gross lifestyle by using "Catholic" arguments. Notice I'm not touching on anything post Vatican Council II. Why? Because it was a Pastoral Council, and therefore none of its tenets are Dogmatic or Infallible.
The Moral Law is written on the heart of man. Did God create two Adams? Two Eves? Homosexuality is a perversion of the generative gifts God has given to men and women. You, Sir, with your golden tongue, are a living perversion of those gifts. The fact is, homosexuals such as yourself throw vain words and arguments around about Christ's Love and Mercy, all the while taking advantage of said Love and Mercy, so that you can satisfy and justify your disgusting bend to subverse God's natural order. And you dare to quote His Scriptures, to give advice! You are a son of the Devil, whether you mean to be or no. You appear to be a Scriptural expert. Recall anything being said about not mocking God? You cannot live any old way you please just because you cannot control your wayward passions. So you will fair better on judgment day? While you stand there, fairing better, remember these conversations you have had, quoting Christ, His Love and Mercy. Quote all that back to Him.
Good Luck, Sir.
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Hi,
This is a very important issue since those who believe like you do are responsible for the murders, torture, imprisonment, harassment, and discrimination of millions of human beings, all in the name of Jesus. Half of all the boys who kill themselves or attempt to kills themselves are homosexual or bisexual, driven to it by the intolerance, bigotry and hate of people like you. Christian behavior against homosexuals goes against the very teachings of Jesus. I cannot see how you can possibly read the teachings of Jesus and his two Great Commandments, and commit such sins either in thought or action.
No matter how you look at it, neither Jesus, Paul, nor anyone else in the New Testament, said anything about homosexuality being wrong. I challenge you to read every single word of Jesus (Matthew, Mark, Luke & John) and find even a hint of it. It is only people, human translators who say that Paul was against homosexuality, not the original words of the the New Testament books, which were written in Coptic greek. Jesus was exposed to homosexuality throughout his life, as he was raised in a city heavily populated by Roman citizens and Roman Garrisons who practiced homosexuality openly, as well as some homosexual Hebrews who kept it more hidden. Yet Jesus never mentioned a thing about it, and since this issue would be used to murder, torture, imprison and drive to suicide millions of human beings, all in his name, don’t you think he would have said something?
The Catholic church did not even take a stand against homosexuality until AD1100. The story of Sodom and Gomorrah was not even translated as having anything to do with homosexuality until AD1100 when it was retranslated by Peter Damien. This was when the church shifted from recruiting Pagans to killing pagans with the purpose to wipe them from the face of the earth, and homosexuality was viewed incorrectly as a pagan thing.
The original New Testament was written in Coptic Greek and there is no word for homosexual, homosexuality or even same-sex sex in that language. Translators took two words and paired them together and claimed it meant homosexual sex, but that was a lie and those words do not translate that way at all. If you want to see the actual translation proof write-up, look in the PDF on this page.
Even now the bible is riddled with translation errors because translation is an interpretation. There is no way to directly translate Coptic Greek int latin or the modern languages.
Worse, there are translation error just going from one english bible to the next. Here is an example. If you go to biblehub.com/1_corinthians/13-… you will see Paul’s verse 1 Corinthians 13:13, in 22 different English bibles.
A few of the bibles use the word Charity: And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
The rest of the bibles use the word Love: And now abides faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
The original definition of the word Charity (still to be found in the dictionary) was: Universal Love for Your Fellow Mankind. This has now been translated into the single word Love. The word ‘Love’ does not at all convey the same message as ‘Universal love for your fellow mankind.’
The bible is riddled with translation errors that change the meanings of things, all based on the interpretation of whoever is doing the translating.
You said, “Grace builds on the Natural Order.” Yet homosexuality is found throughout nature with thousands of examples in the animal and mammal kingdoms. Homosexuality is in the Human Genome and even tied to human fecundity, which means it is tied to the continuation of the human species.
The science is so well researched that even the Catholic Church now officially says the homosexuals are born that way. Then they go on to say that this burden they are born with is a test of their faith, blah, blah.
If homosexuals are born homosexual and it is part of the human genome, then it is natural and part of God’s plan. Who are you to question God's plan?
You talk about Judgment Day, and I will tell you that it is YOU who have something to fear, for you sin in the name of Jesus and God, justifying bigotry and discrimination in the name of God. It is you who have perverted the teachings of Jesus to justify your evil. I have devoted my life, for the last 25 years, to do full time volunteer work to feed the hungry, care for the sick and dying, and counsel those who are depressed and suffer form other mental illnesses. Since I was 8 years old I have strived daily to become a better person, and in all probability live with a value system far stricter than yours. I have controlled my passion very well, how about you?
Your lips flap but what are you doing to actually follow the teachings and mission of Jesus, other than driving children and adults to suicide and working to discriminate agains an entire class of people? Blood is not so easily washed from your hands on Judgement Day, no matter how much you try to wrap yourself in righteousness. Your actions have consequences, even if they are indirect. People like you spread hate and intolerance, leading to violence against others, even if not by your own hand.
I avoid judging people and do not like doing it, but in this case I reflect your judgement against me, back on you. I would as soon be left alone. I do not seek out Bigoted Christians to send hate or attack mail to them, not do I discriminate in any way against them, or shut hateful words at them like people like you do. When I moved into a neighborhood with my husband, we were told that a meeting had been held about how to harass us enough to force us to move, and they talked about protecting heir children from being molested and worried about their property values. Our response was to go to a neighbor and invite them to dinner. Luckily they were polite enough to come. It went very well and we continued to invite neighbors over for dinner, and I would run over and help when I saw other working on their homes , since I know the building trades, and helping with landscaping. In about 6 months we had many freinds and they had all changed their minds about homosexuals. They no longer objectified us as you do and they saw as as human beings, good and decent human beings that did not match all of the lies told to them by priests and ministers. We even did some babysitting and helped boys build a tree house. We did not meet bigotry with bigotry, we reached out in a loving way and they responded in a loving way. I fear that most booted Christians are only that way because it is what they were taught. Once they actually get to know homosexuals, most will no longer be bigoted.
I will also note how many Christian churches, including mainstream churches that not only realize that homosexuality is NOT A SIN, they will even marry homosexual couples. You will see a long list of such churches listed above under my Artist comments.
There is a prohibition against premarital sex for ALL people, but marriage does not have to be by a priest to be a holy union. I sure hope you have not comitted this terrible sin. Premarital sex is a sin just as you claim homosexual sex is, even when homosexuals are married by ministers, so why do you not campaign to bar heterosexual who commit the sin of premarital sex, to see them imprisoned for their sin, unable to get a job, be spit on by other Christians and ostracized? You live by a double-standard. You apply draconian treatment of homosexuals who you claim sin, but not against other sinners, even murderers and rapists. This again illustrates your Bigotry.
You are not satisfied to let people who are born different from you be allowed to have equal rights. Is this a Christian value? If you say, ‘Yes,” then you spit on Jesus and his message.
Some Christians also seem to believe that it is Ok to lie and deceive, to publish what they know to be absolute lies about homosexuality. I guess it is Ok to sin if you do it in the name of God, or saying it is to save souls, or it is a Christian war so we can commit any atrocity or sin to battle it?
Christians keep trying to tie homosexuality to pedophilia, yet the ‘percentage rate’ of molestation of children and teens by heterosexuals, is higher than homosexuals. Straight men are more likely to molest a child than homosexual men (sex with a person under the legal age of consent where they live).
Have you seen the poll commissioned by the Catholic church (American) that found that 72% of Catholics approved of torture, compared to 65% of White Protestants & Evangelicals, and only 51% of seculars. This suggests that Catholics are the most immoral and bloodthirsty and that those who do not even believe in God are more moral by far that Catholics and the Christians.
Link to Article: natcath.org/NCR_Online/archive…
I get attacked by people like you are a regular basis. You drop civility and throw insults, setting an example for children to hate like you do. My worse attack came from a teenage Christina girl spewing pure hate, hoping I would die a horrible death, etc. Who do you think taught her and so many others how to hate so passionately? It was Christians of your ilk.
Thank goodness for real Christians who are good people, who follow the teachings of Jesus, because they are the hope for the future. People like you give Christianity a bad name. If the law allowed it, as it did not so long ago, would you not be condoning the torture of homosexuals, which was done all the way up into the 1970s, with electrical shock to the genitals, repeatedly daily, for months, including on children, or the lobotomies performed, scraping out parts of there brains and turning them into vegetables, years of imprisonment, gangs of Christian men and boys, egged on by their women-folk, hunting and murdering homosexuals.
All of that was done by Christians just like you, only they were given a wider hand to vent their hate. If you were unleashed by the law, what would you do to a class of people who’s only fault was to be born the way God created them?
You are a BIGOT by the very definition of the word, and you try to hide behind a church for justification. It is like the Ten Commandments, where it says you shall not kill, it does not go onward to say except to kill prisoners or criminals, nor does it say it is ok to kill in wars. But you find ways to justify evil acts, and the very worst are the ones committed in the name of God and Jesus. When you spew your intolerance at me, it can be seen by thousands of young Sexual Minority people. You will claim it is to save them, but Sexual Minority people can no more change their Sexual Orientation than they can change the color of their skin or their race. Therefore, your words are aimed to cause suffering, and if that suffering leads to death by suicide, or incites hate in others to murder Sexual Minorities, then the sin of murder is on YOU.
Do you even consider consequences when you spew out your hateful and intolerant words? Do you even consider the suffering that can result? Odds are you do, and you can justify it all by calling yourself a Christian soldier in a Christian war and there are bound to be casualties in the war to save souls. I have been on the receiving end of Christian hatred since I was 12 years old and I am now 59.
Bigoted Christians like you, as apposed to un-bigoted Christians, want a class of people they can look down on and feel superior to, feel like you are fundamentally better than them, and you desire to impose your will on them, enjoying it and getting off on it. If you cannot lift yourself up, why not tear down others.
Whenever you speak against homosexuals, you add to pressure that results in death, suicide and discrimination. How about the 11-year-old kids who killed themselves because of anti-gay bullying and bigotry, and the tens of thousands of other children around the world each year who die because of people like you. You personally have now contributed to this by posting to a page frequented by young people. Pontius Pilot found that the blood did not so easily wash from his hands. You may not ever know the consequences of your actions here, by god will on Judgment Day.
Would you like to take a look at some of the young children and teens driven to suicide by bigoted Christians like you? See how young they are. Look at their faces and read their short stories:
The Faces of Teen Suicide
I am perfectly content to never say any words against bigoted Christians, but you (as in bigoted Christians) seem to feel obliged to attack me, and worse, children, teens and young adults. I therefore reply.
I have no hate for bigoted Christians, despite how much suffering you have caused in this world, including that directed against me. I reached a state of forgiveness and let go of all of that negative energy. But if people keep insisting on attacking me, then sometimes I feel I must reply to correct the record. I am not trying to save your soul because only you can do that, it is your own journey.
I also must let sexual minority youth and others who read this page understand your true disingenuous intent, your bigoted nature and the lies you tell. I try to show them the true Christian message of Jesus and God, and not the hate and intolerant distorted version that the Catholic church and some other Christian churches teach. I am heartened by the fact that the human race is moving towards full acceptance of homosexuality. Just as the church once insisted that the earth was flat and the sun and universe orbited around the earth, murdering people who said otherwise (in the name of god), the church will one day see the light and change their policy and correct the mistranslations of Paul.
Eventually, human decency and sense of right and wrong will end the widespread discrimination agains Sexual Minorities.
Having spent some time in New Zealand, with people who opened their home to a total stranger, and getting to meet some amazingly friendly people, most knowing I was Gay, I have to say I am very disappointed to see people like you and your compatriot representing your country, two people proud of their bigotry.
I do not want you to ever post to one of my pages again, since your message is one of intolerance and hate. If you do, I will have to ban you. You had your say and I had mine and further conversation will go nowhere and be a waste of time. If your New Zealand Christian Bigot group wants to keep harassing me, I will just keep banning them and hiding their comments, then report the spamming to DA Admin.
Finally, I would suggest that instead of spending your time pointing your finger at other people and the sins you perceive them as having committed, that you instead get a life and look to the state of your own soul.
I bid you adieu.
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Immediately after Vatican II, many Catholics dropped the Faith. I know many personally, including my father. Not until they discovered tradition (the original Latin Mass) did they pick up their Faith again. Many priests of Vatican II do not even believe in the true presence in the Eucharist any more. The connection between Vatican II and the mass loss of Faith in the religious and laity is astoundingly obvious. When the Church's teachings become watered down and ambiguous, people naturally ask themselves, "what's the point?".
Our Lord's words are clear and He Himself stated the world would hate Him and His followers. He was persecuted from birth until death. The world is not His friend and Christ's Church can not be friends with the liberal world - that is a clear contradiction.
Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me". Not through Buddha, not through Mohammad, not through the god of the Satanic religion, etc.
Don't mess with the words of Our Lord. He has warned us that there is grave punishment for those who do.
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