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inspiredcreativity — Old Testament + Homosexuality
Published: 2010-02-25 15:23:54 +0000 UTC; Views: 26330; Favourites: 141; Downloads: 582
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This is a PDF Document. Click on the download arrow above to download the PDF. It is free and can be distributed, as long as it is kept free.Please also see my deviation: The NewTestament & Homosexuality at inspiredcreativity.deviantart.… .God Does NOT Condemn You For Your Homosexuality, Or For The Sexual Fulfillment Of Your Homosexual Love—God Welcomes You.
Please Note: This paper does not question the words of God, Jesus, or the authors of the bible. What it does is show how those words have been mistranslated, misinterpreted, and taken out of historical, linguistic, and cultural context for more than two millennia.
There is a HOT-LINKED Table of Contents and much more Information and References. I have also included a HOT-LINKED Index of the Biblical References used throughout the document.
This is an in-depth look at how Jesus and the early Christian Church accepted Same-Sex Loving Relationships and Same-Sex Sex within the context of a committed relationship.
The Old Testament is a Christian version of events, which is different from the TORA of the Jewish Faith. Of the main branches of the Jewish Faith, only one is against Homosexuality, with Reform Judaism, Reconstructionist Judaism, and Conservative Judaism all being fine with Homosexuality.
I hope that this helps some of you reconcile your Christian Faith with your Homosexuality or Bisexuality. It can also act as a handy guide to COUNTER Homophobic Christians who use Scriptures as a weapon against you.
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In this paper, I often present multiple approaches and arguments for the passages in question. For example, translators have used the word Homosexual when no such word even existed when the scriptures were written. Translators of many modern printings have inserted words that are designed to inflame hatred.
Despite new correct translations, Bible publishers are under strong pressure to follow traditional conventions.
WORDS CAN KILL GBLT KIDS. There are Christians whose words drive GBLT CHILDREN TO THEIR DEATHS IN VERY LARGE NUMBERS. It may seem that the Christian Fundamentalists are harmless, but the poison and lies they spread do great harm. Since many of these Fundamentalist Christians believe that their Bigotry and Discrimination are justified by the Bible, they could care less if they drive children to suicide. After all, they are doing "God's Work."
I hope that these two papers on the Bible and Homosexuality will help to educate kids about the truth and save lives.
PLEASE NOTE: I wrote this paper to help people, not to attract Christian BIGOTS, generate religious arguments, debates, or hate attacks. This is not the proper forum for that. If you do not agree with this paper, it is your right to state that. However, I will not engage in counterarguments because the only thing homosexuals ever hear is the constant litany of lies of Conservative Fundamentalist Christians. Any attacking or Hate-based comments will be hidden.
Matthew Barry ©2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2022
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Comments: 327
Yeah. There's a lot of people that think the way i do, it's just I think most of them get too afraid to say they don't mind either. It's just their some stupid people who will call you homosexual if you even say I don't mind. It's really stupid anyway.
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Yes, it is stupid, but I think it will get better.
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I think it will, I mean society is a lot more open to homosexuals than it used to be, but even now, it's still biased. Here goes hoping for equality.
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Hi! I love the way your paper is laid out. I, too, composed a website about this (before I came across your paper/website). I wrote if for a senior thesis. I was wondering if you could help me out. My website is [link] . The first page is fine, but I think that some of the pages are too long/wordy. I don't know how to break down the subject matter any further, and I don't want to remove important content (I'm sure that if I look hard, I could remove extra verbiage).
I was wondering if you have any suggestions for making the website easier to read? For example, this page is huge (all words, no pictures): [link] Granted, it is a complicated subject, but I don't want the website to confuse/frustrate people because of the complexity of the subject. I will appreciate any words of wisdom. On a side note, I don't expect anyone to actually read through all of it (I figure that people will pick and choose what pages they are interested in). Thanks in advance!
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Hi. Thank you for your kind words.
Did you also see the other two papers that go with this one?New Testament + Homosexuality [link]
Old Testament + Homosexuality [link]
SODOM DESTROYED ON 6-29-3129BC [link] The latter one gives more detail about the Judaic and Orthodox Christian views of Sodom & Gomorrah.
I feel I should warn you. I get attacked regularly, sometimes viciously, by Christians, for my above papers. Most are so bad that I hide them from view. If you allow comments on your page, or supply an email address, you will get attacked, along with personal attacks on your character, being told you will burn in hell, are Satan’s child, etc. Just so you know.
Usually they have not even read any of the papers they are screaming about and are outraged that I would dare to write about Homosexuality and the Bible, or claim translation problems and accuse me of daring to question the word of God. My answer to them is that I do not question the word of God or Jesus, I question the words of Translators who had their own hidden agendas. I say we must go back as far as possible to original scriptures, which in the case of the New Testament, is in Coptic Greek.
Translation is extremely difficult after 2,000 years. A language must be translated in context of the culture at the time of the writing. Also, you must use the actual language of the time. There was language drift in Coptic Greek, just as in all languages. There was no word for same-sex sex or homosexual sex in the Coptic Greek language. Paul did not even write, so he dictated to a scribe who wrote in Coptic Greek.
To give you a very small example of translation drift just in the last few decades, Paul used the phrase, “Faith, Hope and Charity.” The primary definition of the word ‘Charity’ meant: Universal Love For Your Fellow Mankind. But over time, the vernacular of the word ‘Charity’ came to mean: The voluntary giving of help to people in need. Many of the latest translations of the Bible, like the New American Bible, translated Paul’s phrase, “Faith, Hope and Charity” into ““Faith, Hope and Love.”
Something big is lost in this translation, to go from “Universal Love For Your Fellow Mankind” to “Love.” Imagine the problems of jumping over 2,000 years from an ancient language, where most of the cultural context is lost, and only very well studies Scholars in Greek language and culture can do an effective translation. But instead, it is theologians who are less educated in both ancient Coptic Greek and the Ancient Coptic Greek culture and the ancient culture of Judea.
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YOUR QUESTIONS
I wrote my papers with one thing in mind. I wanted to be a missionary Priest, but could not reconcile my Faith with my Homosexuality, and there was no help at all back then. I struggles with self-hate and internalized homophobia. I set out to help LGBTQ people be able to reconcile their faith with their homosexuality, as well as to help their parents and other loved reconcile their Faith with the homosexual nature of their loved one.
I also wanted my papers to act as a REFERENCE for when LGBTQ people are attacked by Christians or Jews with Biblical passages, with hot Indexes and Table of contents to quickly find passages and provide arguments against those using biblical passages as a weapon against them, or to help convince parents and loved ones.
It was never my intent to convince Conservative Christians to accept homosexuals, because they are too blinded by hate and a desire to discriminate against others, especially when they believe they have God’s permission to discriminate and abuse homosexuals.
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To answer your questions, first you must decide who your intended audience is. If you want to include a young audience, then your layout is not ideal for that but I think it is easily adapted to a younger audience.
First, I know it is a bit of work, but on your first page, a linked Index of Biblical passages, linked to where you cover said passages, would turn your site into a handy reference guide for people looking for help on a specific passage or two. For example, a person could scan down the index to find Leviticus 18:22, click on it, and be taken to where you discuss that passage.
I think that your pages are well laid-out for Biblical researchers and those interested in an in-depth study, but they are not laid-out well for a younger audience. I have found in my years of working with youth (ages 12 to 25) that most young people today are completely put-off by large blocks of text. If I were to do my papers over, I would do them differently. I wrote them years ago.
However, your pages could very easily be adapted to please both youth people and those wanting a deeper look at the subject. You could give a relatively short summary in each column, followed by a link to another page offering the full details for those who want the all of the details and references. I am suggesting separate pages, because if you put both the summaries and details on a single page, many people would look at a page with a ton of text and just hit the back button or close the window/tab. If they see a smaller amount of text, they are more likely to read it, and if they are then captivated or interested in more detail, they can click on the link and get it.
In other words, you might consider inserting a summary page before the detail & reference page, with a well-labeled link to further deals and references. this should appeal to a wider audience.
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NEWER INFORMATION
I give both Judaic Rabbinic and Orthodox Christian views of Sodom & Gomorrah in my paper SODOM DESTROYED ON 6-29-3129BC [link] which is worth checking out.
It is important to note that Homosexuality was never interpreted into Sodom and Gomorrah until the 11th century by the Italian ascetic Peter Damian. In other words, Christianity never saw Sodom & Gomorrah linked to Homosexuality, for over 1,000 years after the birth of Christ. I give the details of this translation in the above linked paper, under, “ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN VIEW.”
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Frankly, my paper on the New Testament needs a little bit of updating, but I simply do not have the time to do it now. For example, Biblical Archeologists have found that the place where Jesus was raised in Judea was very urban, a city that was relatively densely populated with Roman Citizens and Garrisons. Joseph, was a carpenter, which was like an upper-middle-class trade in those times, and it is very likely that he worked a lot for the romans (where the money was).
This is significant because it means that it was extremely likely that Jesus would have known about ‘Same-Sex Sex’ or homosexual sex in his lifetime of ~34 years. The Romans openly practiced ‘Same-Sex Sex’ as part of their normal sexuality. They Greeks and Romans had no word for ‘Same-Sex Sex’ or homosexuality in their language, because it was considered as just being one aspect of sexuality.
If you then consider that Jesus never once said a single word against ‘Same-Sex Sex’ or homosexuality, as witnessed by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, his omission speaks volumes. It is the same with God’s only direct message to us (not via men) in the Ten Commandments, has no mention of ‘Same-Sex Sex’ or homosexuality.
Are you aware of the change in the Catholic Catechism concerning homosexuality? The Catholic church’s official stand on homosexuality is that Homosexuality itself is not a sin. But a much more significant change is that the Catholic Church has conceded that people are BORN homosexual. More churches are doing this because of the overwhelming science. We even know much of the mechanism.
Normally you would think that God never makes a mistake, therefore homosexual sex, within the confines of a gay Marriage (long-term loving and committed relationship), would not be a sin. Unfortunately, the church still sees Homosexual sex, even in the confines of a loving long-term relationship (marriage), as a sin. They feel that God gave homosexual people the burden of living all their lives in celibacy as a test of their faith.
Reference: You can Read or Download the Catholic Church's Catechism on Homosexuality: Ministry to Persons with a Homosexual Inclination [link] from the 2006 American Conference of Catholic Bishops:
The church acknowledges that people are born Homosexual and that Homosexuality itself is not a sin.
"Homosexual Inclination Is Not Itself a Sin
While the Church teaches that homosexual acts are immoral, she does distinguish between engaging in homosexual acts and having a homosexual inclination. While the former is always objectively sinful, the latter is not. To the extent that a homosexual tendency or inclination is not subject to one’s free will, one is not morally culpable for that tendency. Although one would be morally culpable if one were voluntarily to entertain homosexual temptations or to choose to act on them, simply having the tendency is not a sin. Consequently, the Church does not teach that the experience of homosexual attraction is in itself sinful."
"The Church teaches that persons with a homosexual inclination 'must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity.' We recognize that these persons have been, and often continue to be, objects of scorn, hatred, and even violence in some sectors of our society. Sometimes this hatred is manifested clearly; other times, it is masked and gives rise to more disguised forms of hatred. 'It is deplorable that homosexual persons have been and are the object of violent malice in speech or in action. Such treatment deserves condemnation from the Church’s pastors wherever it occurs.'
Those who would minister in the name of the Church must in no way contribute to such injustice. They should prayerfully examine their own hearts in order to discern any thoughts or feelings that might stand in need of purification. Those who minister are also called to growth in holiness. In fact, the work of spreading the Good News involves an ever-increasing love for those to whom one is ministering by calling them to the truth of Jesus Christ."
I hope this is of some help,
Matthew
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I'm sorry, but being a male Christian with same-sex attractions, I can honestly say that this is wrong. God will forever hate homosexuality. It's not something you can twist or sugar coat. We who are born/developed (whatever your belief is) with homosexual tendencies need to "fix" ourselves. I'm trying really hard to become straight, and I will one day through the power of Jesus become straight, or at the very least be celibate for the rest of my life. No matter how much evidence you bring up to suggest it isn't wrong, it will never be accepted. JPViktor Jokinen is right, a church or group that supports anything gay is wicked and unrighteous.
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Hi,
I would like to ask if you actually read this deviation? Where did god say he hates Homosexuals or same-sex sex? The only actual words of God were carved into the Ten Commandments, and there is no mention of it there. Jesus Christ never once said a single negative word about homosexuality or same-sex sex. In the Old Testament you have a lot of old stories with men claiming to speak for God, but men are fallible. I would suggest that you rely on God’s words and the words of Jesus Christ, not the words of man.
Does God make Mistakes? The Catholic Church and SOM Protestant Churches have already admitted that people are born homosexual. In fact, the Catholic church has changed its official Catechism to say that homosexuals are born homosexual. The science proving that is overwhelming and I can even tell you the mechanism of how you were born homosexual, and the genetic link for a propensity towards mothers giving birth to homosexual children, and why.
Does God make Mistakes? It is wrong of you to suggest that God has made a mistake. It is obviously part of God’s plan and has been for all of recorded human history. The Catholic church tries to get around this by saying that God made you Homosexual as a way of testing your faith, and that you must live a celibate life.
Jesus Christ never once said anything negative about homosexuality or same-sex sex, not anywhere in Matthew, Mark, Luke or John. There is NO WORD in Coptic Greek for Homosexual or same-sex sex. Over 1,000 years after the death of Jesus, Christian translators took a word-pair in Greek and decided it meant homosexual sex. Yet that same word-pair is used elsewhere in the bible without any such meaning. Have you read New Testament & Homosexuality [link] ? I have shown that the translators have mistranslated Paul, in Corinthians and Romans. We know a lot more about Coptic Greek now than we did back then, especially in cultural and historical context.
Jesus would have know about same-sex sex because he was born and raised in Judea, in an urban setting heavily populated by Roman citizens and Roman Garrisons (as shown now by the archeological record). Judea was part of the Roman Empire, and romans openly practiced same-sex sex. Jesus was not executed until he was around 34 (33 to 36) years old, plus Hebrews obviously had some same-sex sex going on as well. Yet Jesus chose to not speak of it, to not condemn homosexuality.
You and others are saying that the Christians in the first 1,000 years after Christ died were wrong, while the bigots of the second millennia somehow got it right?
God never said anything negative about Homosexuality in the Ten Commandments. The story of Sodom & Gomorrah were never seen as having anything to do with homosexuality for over 1,000 years until the Italian ascetic Peter Damian interpreted it that way in the 11th century. The Jewish faith has NEVER interpreted it that way. The Vast majority of Biblical Archeologists also agree the story of Sodom had nothing to do with homosexuality.
The entire population of Sodom (men, women & children) called out to Lot and said, “Where are the men which came in to thee this night? Bring them out unto us, that we may KNOW them.” (Genesis 19:5) Orthodox Christians interpret, "KNOW them," to mean that the sodomites wanted to have homosexual sex with the two male Angels visiting Lot, including the women and children.
While the Hebrew word for KNOW appears over 900 times in the Hebrew Scriptures, only 1% of those references is it clearly used as a euphemism for realizing sexual intimacy. Instead, the demand to KNOW, should be interpreted as demanding the right to interrogate the strangers. The sins of Sodom & Gomorrah were many, but mostly based in INHOSPITALITY & GENERAL WICKEDNESS.
I feel sad that you are unable to reconcile your faith with your inborn homosexual nature. It will torture you all your life until you accept that neither God nor Jesus ever had a bad word to say about homosexuality, and until you look at the true translations of scripture. I feel terrible about your suffering and wish I could help, but this is a journey only you can take.
Homosexuality is set in the brain structures and it is unchangeable. Thinking otherwise is delusional. A Gay man can have sex with a woman, and many have hidden their homosexuality this way, but there is no desire for sex with a woman, the sex is unfulfilling, and it is unsustainable over time, leaving the poor woman without any or very little sexual intimacy in her life, while the man sneaks off to have sex with men.
Typically, so called conversions from homosexual to heterosexual turn out to be Bisexual people who can choose to live as a straight person and be happy that way. There are no documented cases of a successful conversion from Homosexual to Straight that lasted. It ends in either suicide or going back to living as a homosexual, with a lot of suffering along the way to get back to who they really are. There was a Gay man who marry a Lesbian woman and they claimed to have sex together and to converted straight, but then they later came forward to tell the truth that this was a lie. They wanted desperately to be straight, but it is impossible.
I do wish you the best and hope that you will find a measure of happiness in your life.
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I like the way you expound your knowledge but what really confuses me is the fact that you haven't... oh I don't know, posted this on a site where people and religious figures can take notice of it? I'm sorry to say, but I believe my sexual orientation is highly sinful. I will not be swayed by such words. Even if homosexuality is "natural" (God forbid) through unfortunate circumstances, it doesn't mean it's not a sin. I will always see my sexual orientation and its practices as sinful. No amount of twisting the truth, showing examples, or taking scripture out of context will ever change that. Accept the truth. Stop fighting what is law. I'm sorry if this sounds rude, and yes, I want to be openly gay and have a bf, but we must all deny ourselves of earthly pleasures in order to serve God. Period.
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Hi again,
I find it interesting that you refuse to believe in the original scriptures, written by the Apostles and others in the time soon after the death of Christ. Instead you cling to the bigoted translations of European men over a thousand years after Christ died. In doing so, you reject the actual words of Christ, as relayed to us by his Apostles and Paul, in Coptic Greek.
I was born Autistic, just as I was born Gay. I see both as gifts from God. Some see Autism as a curse. It has given me big challenges in life and has made me very good at problem solving, both of which helped me a lot in life. Both Autism and being Gay resulted in me suffering some in life, but I do not see that as a bad thing, for suffering can teach us much and make us stronger. Much of that suffering was at the hands of Christians, both the Autism and the Homosexuality.
Christianity teaches that ANY SEX is a sin if it is done outside of a marriage. All Unitarian churches and United Church of Christ churches do Gay Marriages, as well as the MCC Churches. Many Methodist and Lutheran churches are now doing Gay Marriages. These churches all teach that homosexual sex, within the confines of a Gay Marriage or long-term committed relationship. Are you saying you know better than many of the Christian churches in the world, and their elders and theologians?
I am sure you have read Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, and I would ask you if the Jesus they wrote about would condemn you for the way you were born, for your homosexual nature? Look at the teachings of Christ to see the way. Does Jesus teach homophobia, hatred, discrimination and bigotry against homosexuals?
I was raised in a very strict traditional Catholic Family. I was an altar boy and wanted to be a Priest. I was getting extra training in Franciscan Theology. Even when I knew I was Gay, I was innocent enough not to understand it would be a problem, until our Priest told us altar boys that when a boy is attracted to another boy, he is an abomination in the eyes of God, doomed to burn for eternity in the everlasting fires of Gahanna. It shattered me and I tried to kill myself at age 13. A man grabbed my feet as I was going over.
Today, right now in America, Half (50%) of ALL BOYS who attempt or succeed in killing themselves, are Gay or Bisexual, due to Christian hatred and bigotry. EVERY YEAR in America, about 640,000 GBLT Kids, as young as 12 years old, go onto the street, and 39% of those were thrown out of their homes after “Coming Out” or discovery of their homosexuality or bisexuality, because of conflicts with moral and religious values. The vast majority of those parents are Christians.
I wrote the following papers to help GLBTQ youth and adults to reconcile their Christian or Judaic Faith with their homosexual nature:New Testament + Homosexuality [link]
Old Testament + Homosexuality [link]
SODOM DESTROYED ON 6-29-3129BC [link] As for where to post them, do you have any suggestions where else I would post them to get them seen by LGBTQ youth? Google already lists the above papers in web searches for Christianity and homosexuality. Since I am an artist, this was a logical place to post them at the time, years ago.
I sporadically get attacked with vile hatred here on DA, by Christians. Sometimes Christians create a DA account solely to attack me. You go their DA page and nothing is there at all. I used to try to talk to them, but quickly found that all I get is a continuous stream of vile hatred from them. Now I simply block them and hide the comments, or have DA remove them if they are particularly vile. It is interesting how hatred and Christianity seem to go together for so many. In America, Christianity, denying food and services for the poor and owning guns all go together for some reason.
The Catholic church commissioned a survey on how Christians feel about Torture in America, and this is what they found:72% of Catholics Approve of Torture
65% of White Protestants & Evangelicals Approve of Torture
63% of the Total American Public Approves of Torture
51% of Seculars Approve of TortureThis shows that those who do not even believe in a god seem more decent people than Christians (in America).
None of this is anything like what Jesus Christ teaches. MATTHEW 22 [THE TWO GREAT COMMANDMENTS]
36 "Teacher, 21 which commandment in the law is the greatest?"
37 He said to him, 22 "You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.
38 This is the greatest and the first commandment.
39 The second is like it: 23 You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
40 24 The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments.”Especially note the last sentence referencing The Old Testament.
This is all you need to guide you through life. Christians in general, from my observation, loose track of this and do not even try to live Christ-like. You could go through life and never commit a sin and give to charity, and not go to Heaven. God requires that you love both him and your fellow mankind. Hating homosexuals, judging them, condemning them, discriminating against them, saying hateful things to them, NONE of this is conducive to the teachings of Jesus Christ.
Why do so many Christians ignore the TWo GREAT COMMANDMENTS? They look for justification for their hate elsewhere in the Bible. You can find justification for genocide in the Bible if you want, as Adolph Hitler did and Pope Innocent III did (genocide of the Cathari), killing (including burning at the stake), approximately 40,000 children, women and men, all in the name of God.
You can read >b>The Torture Of Homosexuals - 1950s to 1980s [link] to see how homosexuals were tortured by Christians all over the world, in the name of God.
TRANSLATIONS:
I have a computer program that allows me to compare passages in the Bible between over 100 English translations of the Bible. There are significant differences between the bibles. Some seem simple, but are not. For example, in Paul’s “Faith, Hope and Charity,” found in the older translations, the word charity used to mean “Universal Love for your fellow Mankind.” This is still listed as one of the meanings of ‘Charity’ in most dictionaries, but in the current vernacular, it has come to mean giving to those in need. Therefore, some translations changed the word’Charity’ to ‘Love,” to say, “Faith, Hope and Love.” But the single word ‘Love’ does not give the true meaning as translated from Coptic Greek, which was closer to ‘Universal Love for your fellow mankind.” This change of one single word changed the fundamental meaning of something in the bible.
Anyway, it is not for me to try to change your mind on anything. The information I give is for the open-minded who want the truth about what the Bible really says abut homosexual sex. If it is not helpful to you, I’m sorry about that. Perhaps others can help you later.
Your Homosexual nature is God’s gift to you.
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If you truly believe that, that's your choice. I on the other hand will remain celibate and find a solution to my problem and eventually become straight. If I can't become straight, then I'll be celibate for the rest of my life. If you want to spread your twisted knowledge of the Bible, just post it the most post links on YouTube, I'm sure someone will be able to show you what a huge mistake you're making. Many, many people have tried to justify homosexuality before you. And believe it or not, religion has debunked all of what you've presented so far. Homosexuality is a sin, regardless of what you or I think. I do keep an open mind about things, but the Bible is the infallible words of God.
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Don't be discouraged! Temptation is not a sin! Don't you know that Jesus was tempted in every way we are, but never sinned (Hebrews 4:15)?
Pray to God for support and go seekmcommunity to help you in your struggle. You are not alone in this world.
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I wish you all the best.
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The only thing one has to remember of this deviation is this quote: "I am not a Christian, nor of any other religious faith. I do not believe in a God you would recognize, nor in a Heaven or Hell, but I am a Spiritual man in my own way."
Homosexuality is not and will not be accepted by God. I actually even dare to say that it will Never Ever Be Accepted For All Eternity, which is alot since I am Godfearing.
Also, a "gay friendly" church simply isn't a true church, and homosexual protestant "matrimony" is not a valid marriage since there can never be a holy bond between a non-heterosexual couple.
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If you actually read the deviation, you will see that God and the original Bible have never had anything against Homosexuality, nor did Jesus. However, human translators did and do have homophobic agendas.
Not all Christians are bigots like you are. People like you are the reason why tens of thousands of kids commit suicide each year.
You say you are Godfearing, but you are actually hate-based and intolerant, and that is NOT something of God, it is something of mankind. You use God to justify your own Hate and bigotry.
In my experience, it does no good to continuing talking to people like you, since your hate attacks will simply escalate, so this will be my only response.
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While an emoticon speaks a thousand words, I thought to use fewer words in reply, lol.
Something that seems to offend many is that I am a Humanist, yet write a lot about Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism and Native American Traditions. I can run circles around the vast majority of Christians when it comes to theology, the Bible, and religious history.
Christian churches typically teach through the vehicle of Guilt, Shame and Fear, causing extensive and lasting damage in many people. It is the cheap easy way to control people. Is it not better to teach how to inspire the desire to be good? Is it not better to teach by the example of your own life? Young children are observational sponges. They learn their value system almost far more from observation than they do from listening to parents and teachers.
I choose to be a good man out of my own desire to be a good man, with compassion being my well’s source. I do not need a threat of a Hell, nor the promise of a heaven to regulate my thoughts and behavior. I also do not need to memorize thousands of rules to know the different between right and wrong.
People do not want any of that, they demand exact rules, tell me exactly what I have to do and what I must not do to get into the pearly gates and avoid the fires of Gahanna. Yet no amount of rules can do that. Theologically, a Christian can obey every rules, never sin (impossible), give to charity, and still not go to this thing called heaven. Christ givers you the requirement of Universal love for your fellow mankind and love of God (pretty much the same thing). How often is that taught?
When you look at the teachings of Jesus, Mohamed, and Buddha, then look at how those teachings are put into action in an organized religion, formulated int rules and sons, you realize how extremely twisted and distorted those teachings have become. Jesus had a basic message of loving your fellow mankind, treating others with compassion, giving of yourself for the benefit of others, forgiveness, and not judging others. Yet most Christians I have met in my life do that stuff in a very cursory way, if at all, and they do not even try to live that way. Then turn around with an accusatory finger and severely judge others.
My father told me that Faith and teachings are about how you connect with your spirituality, or god(s), while churches and religions are a group affair, like exclusive clubs with lots of rules, many of which make no sense, but you must follow them anyway. These clubs twist and distort teachings to suit their own agendas, bigotries, biases, and limited views.
You might find this survey, commissioned by the Catholic Church, on American views of Torture, to be of Interest: Christians Approve of Torture [link] 72% of Catholics Approve of Torture
65% of White Protestants & Evangelicals Approve of Torture
63% of the Total American Public Approves of Torture
51% of Seculars Approve of TortureWhat is so fascinating about this is that it is those who do believe in a god and are not affiliated with a religion or church, who disapprove if torture the most, while Christians are very gung-ho about torture.
My big question is how any Christian can read Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, and in any way think Jesus would approve of torture under ANY circumstances. Why does Christian conservatism, greed, and guns go hand-in-hand?
In conclusion, you have many millions of people who call themselves Christians in name, but only give lip service their teachings, let alone try to follow those teachings, so why should they be allowed to call themselves Christians?
I have a radical proposal that all Christians actually read Matthew, Mark, Luke & John, and then try to life like Jesus, or at least based on his teachings, or at the very least, his two Great Commandments of loving God and Loving your Neighbor. If you love your neighbor, you do not seek revenge, do not vote out of greed, you do not cut-off aid to the most vulnerable, you do not care more about your personal wealth than you do about your community, you do not always put yourself first, you give of yourself for the benefit off others, you do not have bigotry against any group of people, you treat others with compassion, and you find forgiveness in your heart.
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I love the way you replied to this.
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Thanks, I hope it was helpful.
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Whoa buckaroo~~! *reads the thing*
Secular Humanism is a dangerous thing don't you know?
(the ideology is against religion by default 
Uh, religions already do that.
Who said you're a good man? You?
I'm not a good person; everyone naturally inclines to "evil" or to the Self over others.
Depends who teaches it, lol
Same as above; you've come across the wrong people is all
AMERICAN is the key word
Individualist society..
Izzy doesn't believe in torture, nor abortion, nor the death penalty, shall I continue?
"Conservatism", far right wing.
I'm Roman Catholic.
And Mexican by that
LGBT ignores all of that.
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Not all Christian churches believe that Homosexuality is a sin.
Do you know that the Catholic Church has Decreed (2006) that Homosexuality is NOT a sin and that homosexuals are BORN that way? In America, the Catholic Church announced this new Vatican Policy via the 2006 American Conference of Catholic Bishops [link] . I am sure there must be a Spanish version available somewhere.
The Catholic Church says that being born Homosexual is not a sin, but that having Homosexual sex is a sin, even within the confines of a loving relationship. Science has shown that you are born homosexual. Supposedly God does not make mistakes, so homosexuality must be part of his plan, especially when you see it throughout the animal, insect and bird kingdoms. HOWEVER, the Catholic church tries to get around this by saying that God’s plan is to test your faith in God by having homosexuals live without sex all of their lives.
Did you know that there are Christian Churches who marry homosexual couples, and who teach that homosexual sex, within a Gay Marriage (long-term committed and loving relationships) is NOT a Sin?
I suspect that you actually know VERY LITTLE about your own Faith.
- - - - - - - - - -
Christianity and Islam have caused far more bloodshed, torture, war, strife and Bigotry in this world than any other religion mankind has ever seen, with Catholicism being the worst.
The Catholic Church wrote the book on human Torture and devised many torture methods. Then there were the Catholic Inquisitions, with the torture and/or death by fire of many hundreds-of-thousands of people, with over 125,000 people in Spain alone, all in the name of God. Some think that close to 500,000 people were tortured and/or executed all over Europe.
The Catholic church has committed Genocide, slaughtering over 40,000 Cathari children, women and men, after Pope Innocent III (1160-1216) had a dream and said God made him do it. I can keep listing the atrocities committed by the Catholic church itself, but is a rather endless list.
The current New Testament is full of miss-translations from the original Coptic Greek it was written in, but then you were willing to denounce my deviations about this without even reading them.
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"Christian" my ass.
AMERICAN Conference of "Catholic" Bishops. Fuckin' wonderful man didn't you know that they care more about keeping their positions of power instead of wanting to guide their people to truth?
Science has shown nothing of the sort. Mere theory is being pushed as fact, a sin in itself in the scientific LGBT community itself.
I don't look to animals to justify my behavior~~
"Christian" by label, idiot
-----
Aw really?
Amazing, where'd you get your outdated information from?
I thought atheistic regimes under Stalin, Lenin, Hitler, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot and Plutarco Elias Calles were much worse?
(Usually when Communism takes a hold of a society, religion's the first thing to go along with its preachers and followers-- how's that for "open-mindedness" in a field of persecution? 8D)
Which current New Testament?
Which version of the Bible are you talking about?
Sounds to me like a matter of mistranslation
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You just bad-mouthed Pope Benedict XVI and the current Vatican Council of Bishops, since they are the originators of the Catechism on Homosexuality in the Catholic Church. I gave you a link to the policy that I happened to have on hand, where the American bishops simply announced the policy. The American Bishops cannot originate such policies.
Maybe you never got word from not going to church enough, OR your country’s Bishops and Priests have failed to disseminate the policy of the Vatican to its parishes, in which case I imagine that Rome is unaware of their disobedience. I seem to feel that you know better than the Vatican does in these matters.
Science has indeed proven that homosexuality is inborn, something the Catholic church has acknowledged, and we can even describe the genetic links and the hormonal processes during gestation of the fetus where it all happens. There are even structural changes in the brain.
The Catholic church took hundreds of years before admitting that the earth was round and that the earth circled the sun. You can deny it and play ignorant all you want, just to justify your hate, but it changes nothing. Even your church knows better than you do, but you refuse to even listen to the policies and believes of the Vatican.
As for translations, you are free to read the deviations describing the original Coptic Greek and current translations.
Whenever a person starts to use abusive, bigoted and disrespectful language, I know there is no longer any point in discussion, because it is all hate-based. There will be no further communication.
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Martin Luther posted his thesis before the Vatican because he saw through their hypocrisy. Some evidence was that the Catholic Chruch taught works could get you into heaven, but it's done by faith alone. Also how the Catholic Church denied anyone but priests reading the Bible. Also, it was mainly Catholics who burned Protestants at the stake, and the Pope Julius II went on military conquest, claiming they were doing "God's Will". And then you have the Crusades issued by the Popes who claimed they were fighting for God. But God does not call for anyone to pick of a gun or sword to spread his Word.
Do you question the Pope and the Vatican? I'm just asking genuinely. Better to question like Socretes than follow someone blindly. The Pope and the Vatican are just as fallible as the rest of us. The Reformation happened for a reason, and the "Catholic Church" and it's Popes loved nothing more to see it burned down. Thousands of Protestant martyrs were burned by Catholics. You may know this, you may not. Britain had a power struggle between Protestant and Catholic. (Look up Lady Jane Grey, Edward the Sixth, and "Bloody" Mary Tudor.)If you want an example of what I mean, look at the martyr John Wicliff. The modern Catholic Church denies it's crimes in the past! And science has not fully proven homosexuality is genetic. Several scientists in the past have stated no real evidence has ever been found.
Biochemist Dr. Neil Whitehead states 29/79 cultures either have little or none homosexual activity. So much homosexuality being highly influenced by genetics. Several African tribes including the Aka had no comprehension of homosexuality. The Vikings had little to none homosexuality since their survival depended on procreation.
And because I'm compelled by you twisting God's Word, Leviticus makes it obvious. And the NT Apostle Paul makes it quite plain in Romans 1:27:
"And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust on toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves the recompence of their error which was meet." (KJV)
Paul is obviously stating the Roman men and women gave each other up and had sex within themselves (their own gender.) Jesus may not talk about homosexuality, but the Father has already stated in Leviticus it's an abomination. And that was not canceled out by Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. He and the Father are One; they'll never contradict one another. Period.
I'm not trying to change your mind, I most likely won't. But I will speak out against your error.
Have a good day, sir.
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To answer your questions about your Bible Quotes of Leviticus, Romans and Corinthians, plus others, I detailed those already for you, plus they are in my three posts on the Bible and Homosexuality. Any scholar of the Coptic Greek language and of the Judaea culture in the time of Jesus can explain the mistranslation of the two key words and word pair used in Paul, where he was not talking about same-sex sex at all.
But for a new takes on them, you might take a look at The Gay Debate: The Bible and Homosexuality by Mathew Vines [link]
As for Catholic stuff, if you are Catholic then you are directed to follow the church dictates, other wise there is no need to worry about it. My point to you was that the Catholic church has acknowledged that Science has proven beyond a reasonable doubt that people are born with homosexuality.
Finally, as you must have found in your researches that you can always find anyone calling themselves a scientist or researcher who will support just about anything anyone could every want to assert. You managed to find someone claiming to support your view. What matters in research studies is if the research is PEER-REVIEWED and can be replicated, which means that other scientists have looked at the methodology, data collection, parameters and guiltiness used for picking subjects (who and how) etc, and if those results can be replicated again. Once a study is Peer-Reviewed and passed, it can be published in a reputable.
Therefore, the next time you want to quote a study to me, kindly be sure that it is legitimate.
I believe this addresses your comments above.
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Alright. Thanks for the information and advice.
Take care!
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uh It's spelled Torah but nice being aware its the christian version!
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Thanks for the spelling correction. Do you remember where I misspelled it?
For a little more comparison between Christian and Jewish views on Sodom and Gomorrah, check out my deviation: SODOM DESTROYED ON 6-29-3129BC [link] .
Christians naturally had to take the Old Testament stories and spin it to their own purposes. The interpretation of Sodom and
Gomorra (Genesis 19) as having to do with Homosexuality did not happen until AD1100, by the Italian ascetic Peter Damian. When the entire population of Sodom (men, women and children) called out to Lot to send out the two strangers "So that me might KNOW them, Christians in the AD1100 church interpreted this as the people of Sodom wanting to have sex with the strangers. Yet the ancient Hebrew word used for 'Know" is seldom used in a sexual connotation in the Old Testament, and it is not supposed int he story to be put in a sexual connotation.
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I just finished reading both, Old and New Testament ones, and I have to say they are one of the research best works I've ever read. Thanks for taking your time to write them and sharing.
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You are very welcome. Can I interest you in also ready my SODOM DESTROYED ON 6-29-3129BC [link] ?
There is more information coming out as time passes. For example, recent Biblical Archeologists have been working the area where Christ was raised as a boy and young man. Jesus was raised in an urban setting. His father, a carpenter, made him middle class. This urban area was actually a major Roman center, offering a lot of work for a carpenter. The importance of this is that it shows that Jesus had a high exposure to Roman culture and Romans.
Same-sex sex was a natural part of Roman Sexuality and was openly practiced, not hidden like it was in Hebrew society. Jesus would have surely been aware of same-sex customs in his some 34 to 35 years of life, yet he never spoke against it a single time, never even a negative hint, as witnessed by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
Some Christians are outraged at me, asking how dare I question the Bible. My answer is that I am NOT questioning the original Greek New Testament, I am questioning the translations from the Ancient Greek original scriptures.
Do you know that not even the Catholic church interpreted the story of Sodom & Gomorrah (Genesis 19), as referring to a Homosexual sin, until the 11th century by the Italian ascetic Peter Damian. This is over 1,000 years after the death of Christ. It was politically motivated. The church courted pagans for almost a thousand years, but then the amount of money in the collection baskets was going down, and first parts of the Little ice Age in Europe was stating. The church was wanting to stamp out the last remaining remnants of paganism, and homosexuality was seen as a Pagan thing.
They made homosexuality into a threat, generating great fear, because fear brings people into churches and gets them to donate more money. It is called Fear-mongering. Parishioners were told things like homosexuals consorted with Satan and stole children and converted children into homosexuals, dooming them to the eternal fires of Gahanna for all of eternity.
The Origin of the word "fag," commonly used to mean "Cigarette," comes from the word "faggot," which is defined as "a bundle a sticks." In the inquisition of Europe, when witches and heretics were being tortured and burned, among those sought out for burning were homosexuals (Gay, Lesbian). They were required to gather the very "bundles of sticks" with which they would be burnt. When the faggots (sticks) were running out, homosexuals were thrown on the fire to keep it going for the witch burning.
The church later experienced a great decrease in church attendance and donations near the later part of the Little ice Age. They again turned to scapegoating that led to the murder of hundreds of thousands of innocent women and men. In 1484, Pope Innocent VIII blamed the Little Ice Age on witches, leading to centuries of innocent women and men being burned at the stake, for nothing. He had inquisitors Heinrich Kramer and Jacobus Sprenger systemize the persecution of witches. He said they could raise hailstorms, lightning, violent storms, wretched cold… He did it because people were giving less money to the church and fewer people were going to church. Scapegoats are a tried and true method to solidify power, SHIFT BLAME, and unite people against a common enemy.
Western Europe experienced a general cooling of the climate between the years 1150 and 1460 and a very cold climate between 1560 and 1850 that brought dire consequences to its peoples. The colder weather impacted agriculture, health, economics, social strife, emigration, and even art and literature. Increased glaciation and storms also had a devastating affect on those that lived near glaciers and the sea.
In the Christian Inquisitions, with the torture and/or death by fire of many hundreds of thousands of people (over 125,000 people investigated in Spain alone), all in the name of God. Pope Innocent III (1160-1216) proclaimed he had a vision from God that the Cathari were heretic and declared Holy War against them, killing (including burning at the stake), approximately 40,000 children, women and men, all in the name of God. The capacity for man's inhumanity against man has no limits.
If you look at world history, you will see that prior to Christianity and Islam, there was very little homophobia in the world. It was openly part of the Persian empire and the Roman and Greek empires, and even in ancient Egypt. It was common for homosexuals to be the shamans, medicine men and women, tribal teachers and healers... They were often held in high esteem as those who straddles both the male and female spirits or energies. When you look at aboriginal tribes of Australia, Africa, Pacific Island Groups, China and in the Americas, homosexuality was integral and acceptable in tribal cultures and in societies.
The vast majority of atrocities and discrimination against homosexuals, in the history of planet Earth, has been at the hands of Christians and Muslims. Yet there is not even any direct justification in the New Testament.
God never spoke a direct word against Homosexuality in the TEN COMMANDMENTS, nor did Jesus in the New Testament. This mostly leaves just Paul in Romans and Corinthians, yet, as I have shown, these passages have been mis-translated, apparently on purpose. There is not word in ancient Greek for homosexual or same-sex sex. This is because it was pretty much all just sex to them. The translations were based on using word-pairs, but these word pairs appear elsewhere in the bible with zero sexual connotation. Other words were not directly connected to homosexuals, like a word referring to prostitutes then assigning that as homosexual.
In conclusion, I do not question the word of God or Jesus in the New Testament, but I do question the translation of men.
Frankly I also see the claim that the words of Paul have equal weight to those of Jesus to be downright sacrilegious.
Christ gave us two Great Commandments and said the all of the law of the New and Old Testaments depend on them. Hate and intolerance of homosexuals is not part of that.
THE TWO GREAT COMMANDMENTSMATTHEW 22The New American Bible
36 "Teacher, 21 which commandment in the law is the greatest?"
37 He said to him, 22 "You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.
38 This is the greatest and the first commandment.
39 The second is like it: 23 You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
40 24 The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments."It is not Jesus or God who has a problem with homosexuals, it bigoted men and women, who use religion and God as a justification for bigotry and hatred, for committing crimes against humanity, for centuries of murdering, torturing, imprisoning, and discriminating against homosexuals, all of the way to present times.
The fault is not in the actual teachings of Jesus and God, the fault is in the human beings who do terrible things in the names of Jesus and God. They have been and will continue to be judged accordingly by God.
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Yes, I know what you mean. My sister is studying ancient cultures like Geece, Rome, Egypt at univertity and she told me those things. I, also, am working as translator, and I know the difficulties to translate and the free translations are sometimes done.
Thanks for the link, I'm going to read it too.
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You are most welcome. Remember to take pride in who you are, to love yourself, and most of all, don't beat yourself over things. None of us are perfect.
Matthew
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Say No to Prop 8!! ( those of you who dont' know it's against gay marriage)
1) Being gay is not natural.
And real Americans always reject unnatural things like eyeglasses, polyester, and air conditioning, tattoos, piercings and silicon breasts...
2) Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay.
In the same way that hanging around tall people will make you tall.
3) Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior.
People may even wish to marry their pets because a dog has legal standing and can sign a marriage contract. Lamps are next.
4) Straight marriage has been around a long time and hasn’t changed at all;
Hence why women are still property, blacks still can’t marry whites, and divorce is still illegal.
5) Straight marriage will be less meaningful if gay marriage were allowed;
And we can’t let the sanctity of Britney Spears’ 55-hour just-for-fun marriage be destroyed.
6) Straight marriages are valid because they produce children.
So therefore, gay couples, infertile couples, and old people shouldn’t be allowed to marry because our population isn’t out of control, our orphanages aren’t full yet, and the world needs more children.
7) Obviously gay parents will raise gay children,
Since, of course, straight parents only raise straight children
8) Gay marriage is not supported by religion.
In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are imposed on the entire country. That’s why we have only one religion in America.
9) Children can never succeed without a male and a female role model at home.
Which is exactly why we as a society expressly forbid single parents to raise children.
10) Gay marriage will change the foundation of society; we could never adapt to new social norms.
Just like we haven’t adapted to cars, the service-sector economy, or longer life spans.
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In Washington State, we just got Gay Marriage a couple of months ago, but they are not allowing it to happen yet because there is to be a State-wide vote (referendum) by the people in November to try to overturn it and eliminate Gay marriage. It is the churches who are leading the attack.
When we got Domestic Partnership, the churches led the fight to try to overturn it. We won by only 1% of the vote. That is how close it was for us losing Domestic partnership. We are very worried that we might lose Gay Marriage in Washington State.
The problem for all of us in the american LGBTQ community is DOMMA (Defense Of Marriage Act), the Federal Law that prohibits the Federal Government to recognize both Gay Marriage and domestic partnerships performed in any State. It also prohibits other states from recognizing the Gay Marriages and Domestic Partnerships performed in another State. The moment my partner and I (together 22 years) cross the border and leave Washington State, all of our Domestic Partner protections disappear.
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Hey thanks for sending me this link. I went through a really hard time and I was questioning who I was and who I wanted to be and being a Christian it was really hard to feel like God loved me if I was any thing but straight. I was having feelings of insecurity and fear and I wondered how if God was supposed to be loving then why would He hate people who are not "normal" ? People use this insecurity to their advantage. People are very close minded now a days and don't like to step out of what they would consider "normal". Thank you again for giving me this link. I believe in Jesus Christ as my savior and that's it no idols no special clothing I have to wear just Him. He has never lead me astray yet.
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You are most welcome.
Something the vast majority of Christians do not know is that Jesus never said a single word against Homosexuality, despite having known about it during his life. Archeologists have discovered that the area Jesus was raised in was a thriving urban area (city) that was also a Roman center and relatively densely populated by Roman Citizens and Garrisons. Jesus was the son of a carpenter, which would have been akin to the middle to upper middle class, and his father, as well as his son, would probably have worked for Romans. My point is that the romans opening practiced Same-sex sex as part of their normal sexuality. Jesus was bound to have heard about same-sex sex and homosexuals during his 34 to 35 years of life. Yet he never once said it was wring. God, in his 10 Commandments, never mentions homosexuality either. The only people against homosexuality are People, not the divine.
The ORIGINAL BIBLE, written in ANCIENT GREEK, said nothing against homosexuality. Translators of PAUL said that he was against homosexuality. My deviations focused mostly on the Transcription lies in the Old & New Testaments. These interpretations against Homosexuality did into really appear until around 1100 AD.
We now know that we are born LGBT and even know much of the process as to why we are born LGBT. Next, Homosexuality has been documented in almost 500 species of animals and over 1,500 species total, and the number is growing as more research is done. Killer Wales, Black Swans, Dragonflies, Bonobo Chimpanzees, Japanese Macaques, American Bison, Bottlenose Dolphins, Giraffes, Kob Antelope, Walrus, Gray Whale, Penguins, and Guianab-cock-of-the-Rock, are all examples.
Homosexuality is obviously part of Nature itself and obviously part of God's plan.
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I would like to thank you for sending this link to me. I attend church regularly, and i am lesbian but lately i wanted to stop going i felt as if the people at church knew how i was they would hate me. I also felt if God looked down on me also. My family looked down on me..devoted Christians..so i figured the church would like if i stayed away. I felt bad about wearing a cross around my neck. I read the books they give teen for answers and every book i read told me that i should get rid of the thoughts and try and live what they call 'normal' life to their standers..one book even told me i should get stoned to death...These were book my parents bought at the church to help me! due to the confusion i stared cutting my writs I figured on one accepted me, I felt alone...
I'd like to thank you for putting this up..hopefully it will help solve my confusion.
(if i misspell anything in this message sorry, terrible grammar ><)
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Hi,
The more you study this, the more I think you will see that God and Jesus had nothing against Homosexuals. Also know that there are Christian churches who do NOT believe the Homosexuality is a sin. They believe that homosexual sex, within the confines of a Committed Relationship (Gay Marriage) is NOT A SIN. Sex outside of a Relationship is considered a sin in most of the Christian world (but not all), no matter if it is straight of gay.
Your own church may not accept you, but some churches will. You also do not need a church to be a good Christian.
I assume you got all three links?
MATTHEW 22 The New American Bible36 "Teacher, 21 which commandment in the law is the greatest?"
37 He said to him, 22 "You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.
38 This is the greatest and the first commandment.
39 The second is like it: 23 You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
40 24 The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments."This means that all of the Old and New Testaments depend on these two great commandments.
Next, In the New Testament, it is primarily in Paul, Romans and Corinthians where the current translations speak of same-sex sex. As you know, the entire New Testament was written in Ancient Greek. There never was a Greek word for homosexuality or for same-sex sex. You will see in my writings that the translators took word parings to infer that it was homosexual sex, yet the same word pairing are used elsewhere in the bible without any sexual connotation. In other words, the Translators of the Bible have lied and continue to perpetuate the lies.
Christians keep saying to me, "How DARE your question the word of God?" I do not question the word of God, I question the human translators of Ancient Greek. The translations are wrong. Even then, ROMANS does not say homosexuality is wrong or a sin, as I describe in my paper.
BORN HOMOSEXUAL:
Even the Catholic church, it its official Catechism, has now said that Homosexuals are BORN HOMOSEXUAL. GOD DOES NOT MAKE MISTAKES. Yet the church goes on to say that god made us homosexual, but God does not intend you to express your love through sexuality, as god has given you this test of faith, to be celibate all your lives. What a bund of horse manure. It makes no sense that if god made us homosexual that God did not expect us to be homosexual just like Heterosexuals are, to be loving people, form families, and to express love through sexuality. Some Christians would have you believe that you only purpose earth is to breed like rabbits.
Science has proven that homosexuality in not only genetic in Humans, and that we are born this way, it is also present in thousands of animal species, and is well described in some 500 species, such as Giraffes, Chimpanzees, macaques, American Bison, Dolphins, Antelope, Black Swans, Walrus, Penguins, Gray Wales, Guiana-Cock-of-the-Rock, and on and on. Homosexuality is NATURAL and present in NATURE.
There is ZERO DIFFERENCE between Homosexuals and Heterosexuals, other that who we fall in love with. Everything else is the same, how we fall-in-love, how we form relationships and bond for long periods, how we raise children. You are no looking at the homosexual community. You are only looking at the lies given you by your church. Open your eyes. The vast majority of homosexuals never go to parades. They live like everyone else. The vast majority of us LOOK like you and other Straight people. Judges, doctors, politicians, dentists, engineers, scientists, lawyers, artists, every career you can think of. I was in the US Merchant Marine and US Navy.
The vast majority of Biblical archeologist agree that Sodom and Gomorrah had nothing to do with Homosexuality. The claim is that when the entire population of Sodom called out to Lot to send out the strangers (angles) so that we might KNOW them, that the word KNOW meant the entire population wanted sex with the standers. Yet the word Know is almost never used in the bible to mean sex. This interoperation of Sodom and Gomorrah being about homosexuality did not even show up until 1100 AD.
After researching the materials, if you have questions, feel free to ask.
Matthew
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Hello 
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Hi, I apologize for taking so long to get to this.
In the link you gave me, they show the book The Children Are Free: Reexamining the Biblical Evidence on Same-sex Relationships. I just wanted to say that I have the book and it was one of my references. It is definitely worth the read. My two PDFs on the subject are rather condensed and there is so much more detail to this, as you seem to know. I decided to try to shorten it as much as possible, so that people might read it. Alas, most youth never do read them because they looks so long.
You are correct that Leviticus 18 20 could refer to idolatry.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . .
It is so cool to see someone take an interest in this and actually devote time to understanding the cultural interpretation of the bible. People seem to assume that translation is a simple black and white process, but nothing could be further from the truth.
Language is very dynamic and constantly changing. We have words spelled exactly the the same that sound differently and mean different things, depending on usage and context in a sentence. We have words which sound the same but are spelled differently.
In older translations of the english bible, from when I was a boy, King James version, Chapter 13 of the First Epistle to the Corinthians, written by Paul, where he refers to Faith, Hope and Charity, the word CHARITY comes from original Greek word αγαπη agape. If you look in an older dictionary, the very first definition of the English word Charity was Universal Love for your Fellow Mankind. Newer English Bible Translations have changed the word to Love, because it was felt that the word Charity now meant something different to most english speaking people, namely giving to those in need. Therefore, the phrase now reads as Faith, Hope and Love. Yet the word Love does not really give the same meaning as Universal Love for your Fellow Mankind. This shows how rough translation can be.
Some things have very indirect meanings at the time it was written. I was stuck out at see for many months, then off to a shipyard in Brest, France. When I got a home, a friend told me that he had just bought a new stereo system and that is was really BAD, so I asked him if he got his money back. He looked at me like I was looney-tunes. BAD now meant COOL. Every language is full of this stuff, and it changes constantly, like, "Gag me with a spoon," is now totally passé.
IGNORANCE:
If you remember your History, much was lost of civilization and all things Greek and Roman in the Dark ages. Christians in the most Dark Age era had lost almost all knowledge of ancient times. We had lost almost all of science and math, even cement and underwater cement that the Romans used. Their translations from Greek would have been largely ignorant of Greek intent, and I image they interpreted it based on how they wanted it to read.
Ancient Greek writings by Archimedes have been discovered in old Christian prayer books, proving that the Greeks had discovered Calculus and advanced engineering [link] . The Monks had taken Archimedes science and math writing, scraped the parchment, turned it sideways, and wrote their prays and religious drivel in them. The old Greek writing could be faintly seen underneath, and scientists were able to image it and recover those ancient Greek writings, proving the ancient Greeks knew things like calculus long before modern times. Christianity had helped destroy all knowledge of science and math as ungodly and evil, throughout both the Dark Ages and well in the Renaissance. When you look at words like Eunuch, there are multiple meanings, depending on contextual usage of the author.
The only way you can possibly know or even guess at that would require extensive knowledge of the ancient Greek usage at the time it was written. After about a 1100 years after Christ, you see a church focusing an attack against homosexuals, as part of a general attack agains all things Pagan (homosexuality, being common in Greek and Roman culture was seen as Pagan). The church was also seeing a sharp decline in attendance and donations, because people were blaming the Little Ice Age, which was starting to ravage Europe, on the Church. The Church responded by a creating a common enemy and inciting fear in homosexuals as people who turned children evil and stole souls, etc.
But the Little Ice age continued to ravage Europe, with widespread starvation, crop failures, the plague, etc. In 1484, Pope Innocent VIII blamed the Little Ice Age on witches, leading to centuries of innocent women and men being burned at the stake, for nothing. He had inquisitors Heinrich Kramer and Jacobus Sprenger systemize the persecution of witches. He said they could raise hailstorms, lightning, violent storms, wretched cold… He did it because people were giving less money to the church and fewer people were going to church. Scapegoats are a tried and true method to solidify power, SHIFT BLAME, and unite people against a common enemy.
Conclusion: Those translating the bible for a very long time were completely ignorant of ancient Greek and roman culture, and they had hidden agendas and bigotry.
BIAS and INTENT when translating:
Even now, Church leaders and many biblical Theologians are fully invested in the lies and misinterpretations of the scripture. To admit that there are errors in the Bible would not only send shockwaves through all of Christianity, many would refuse to even believe it. As you know, many Christians believe that every single word in the bible is god given or divinely inspired. But how do you explain over 100 English translations of the bible, each with significant differences.
I have a computer program, based on the Sword project, which allows me to select a Bible passage, then see it in as many translations as I want, side-by-side. The differences are amazing. So which version is divinely inspired? Oddly, you cannot see any of the Catholic Bibles, since they are all copyrighted, which is very amusing. Bible researchers all over the world use the software, and the Catholic bibles are excluded because the Catholic church refuses permission. However, by downloading an entire section of a site (legal), I have an html copy of the New American Bible (a Catholic Bible). I have a print one too, but it was printed back in the 60s.
Conclusion, most (but not all) of Christianity is fully vested in the lies and mistranslations of scriptures.
CATHOLIC CHURCH: The Catholic Church's official CATECHISM now admits that some Homosexuals are born that way, and that since god created them that way then it is NOT A SIN TO BE HOMOSEXUAL. However, they still say that HOMOSEXUAL SEX IS STILL A SIN. They say that God made you homosexual as a test of your faith, and that you must stay celibate all your life. This is the official Catholic stand. At least they admit you can be born homosexual, a really big step. Note: Some Homosexuals refers to Bisexuals and those they still insist choose the lifestyle.
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TRANSLATION OF EFFEMINACY IN THE BIBLE:
Effeminate means for a man to act unmanly or in a feminine way. Dictionary: "Having or showing characteristics regarded as typical of a woman; unmanly."
Effeminacy comes from the Latin, ex which is "out," and femina which means woman; it means "to be like a woman." The Latin term is mollities, meaning "softness."
In ancient Koine Greek, the word for effeminate is kinaidos (cinaedus in its Latinized form).
"A cinaedus is a man who cross-dresses or flirts like a girl. This term has been borrowed from the Greek kinaidos (which may itself have come from a language of Ionian Greece of Asia Minor, primarily signifying a purely effeminate dancer who entertained his audiences with a tympanum or tambourine in his hand, and adopted a lascivious style, often suggestively wiggling his buttocks in such a way as to suggest anal intercourse....The primary meaning of cinaedus never died out; the term never became a dead metaphor." (Williams, 1999)
GREECE
The late Greek, possibly c. fourth century (time the Gospels were written), Erôtes ("Loves", "Forms of Desire", "Affairs of the Heart"), preserved with manuscripts by Lucian, contains a debate "between two men, Charicles and Callicratidas, over the relative merits of women and boys as vehicles of male sexual pleasure." Callicratidas, "far from being effeminised by his sexual predilection for boys...Callicratidas's inclination renders him hypervirile... Callicratidas's sexual desire for boys, then, makes him more of a man; it does not weaken or subvert his male gender identity but rather consolidates it." In contrast, "Charicles' erotic preference for women seems to have had the corresponding effect of effeminising him: when the reader first encounters him, for example, Charicles is described as exhibiting 'a skillful use of cosmetics, so as to be attractive to women.'"
ROME
Over-refinement, fine clothes and other possessions, the company of women, certain trades, and too much coitus with women were all deemed effeminate traits in Roman society. Touching the head with a finger and wearing a goatee were also considered effeminate (Holland, 2004).
Roman orator Quintilian described, "The plucked body, the broken walk, the female attire," as "signs of one who is soft [mollis] and not a real man." (Institutes 5.9.14, cited/translated by Richlin, 1993)
For Roman men masculinity also meant self-control, even in the face of painful emotions, illnesses, or death. Cicero says, "There exist certain precepts, even laws, that prohibit a man from being effeminate in pain," (Fin. 2.94) and Seneca adds, "If I must suffer illness, it will be my wish to do nothing out of control, nothing effeminately." (Epist. 67.4)
In his commentaries on the Gallic Wars, Julius Caesar wrote that the Belgians were the bravest of all Gauls, because "merchants least frequently resort to them, and import those things which tend to effeminate the mind". (Commentarii_de_Bello_Gallico, I,1)
IMPORTANT NOTE: Some Straight men are Born EFFEMINATE and some Straight women are born masculine. While most effeminate men turn out to be homosexual or bisexual, it is by no means the only time. Most homosexual men are actually relatively or very masculine, just as most homosexual women are relatively or very feminine. This shows the great diversity of the human race.
Just as there is a continuous spectrum between Heterosexual and Homosexual, there is a spectrum for Femininity and Masculinity that crosses Gender lines and Sexual Orientation lines. The sexual orientation spectrum is heavily biased towards Heterosexuality. The Femininity/Masculinity spectrum is heavily biased to match a person's gender. The notion that men are men and women are women is actually rather grayscale, not black and white.
Do you begin to see how egregiously most Christian Churches cling to its incorrect translations of the Bible?
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FAITH:
I was once talking with another man on a ship about spirituality. He brought it up first to sell me on his brand of Christianity. I questioned him extensively. On the second day, he said he did not want to discuss it anymore. He said, "I have been taught how to interpret the bible, and all you are doing is making me think about it, and I don't want to think about it, because then I might question it, so no more talk about it."
I think that this is a very, very common sentiment.
But I ask you, is this FAITH? If you found out that Mary was not a virgin, would that shatter your Faith? If you found out there never was a NOAHS ARK, would that shatter your Faith? People are missing the point. It does not matter so much what everything in the bible means. It comes down to FAITH, which means accepting that there is a single God and that Christ is part of that God. The TEACHINGS OF JESUS were meant as a guide to help you stay on your spiritual Path towards God. But what is in your INTENT and heart matters the most.
Jesus gave us Two Great Commandments, to Love God and to Love your Fellow Mankind. Does hating and/or mistreating homosexuals come under "Loving your neighbor"?
THE TWO GREAT COMMANDMENTS
Jesus Christ gave us something incredibly simple to be our sole needed guiding light for determining our spiritual path and in determining Right from Wrong:
MATTHEW 22 NAB
36 "Teacher, 21 which commandment in the law is the greatest?"
37 He said to him, 22 "You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.
38 This is the greatest and the first commandment.
39 The second is like it: 23 You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
40 24 The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments."
Jesus is saying that ALL of the OLD & NEW TESTAMENTS depend on Loving God and Loving Your Neighbor.
People who are relatively good only because they fear going to HELL and desire to go to HEAVEN, are not destined for Heaven. As a Christian, you mandate for God is to LOVE. If you truly love God and Your Fellow Mankind, you will not intentionally harm them or wrong them, and you will seek to give of yourself, for the benefit of others.
Theologically, you could have faith, you could follow all the rules of your church and not do much bad things, and still not go to heaven, if you have not worked with intent to Love god and your Fellow Mankind.
Further, many of the rules of the Catholic and Protestant Churches are not truly based in the teachings of Jesus, but rather those of men. I believe it important to always focus on the actual teachings of Christ.
JESUS CHRIST never once even hinted at being against Homosexuality in his teachings (in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) and god, in the Ten Commandments did not mention it either. It is in the words of men who condemn homosexuality. Churches want to give equal weight to paul and Jesus, which seems sacrilegious.
From Archeology, we now know that Jesus was raised in a city environment that was heavily influenced by a Roman Presence. SAME-SEX SEX was common to both Greek and Roman cultures and openly practiced. Jesus lived around 35 years and would have been bound to have known that there are men who have no attraction to women and had sex with each other. if it was of importance, he would have said something about it.
ANCIENT GREEK, ROMAN & PERSIAN VIEW OF SAME-SEX SEX:
In the Ancient Greek, Roman and Persona Empires, and was true also in ancient China, Homosexuality did not exist as we know it today. It is better to call it Same-Sex Sex. Same-Sex Sex was part of normal sexuality then. Two men who were good friend, and married, might engage in sex. This was especially true with soldiers. Men were still expected to marry a woman and produce offspring, mostly as their retirement plan, but if they were wealthy, and other family members could continue the blood-line, there was no need or pressure to marry, and it was not uncommon for men to live together for a lifetime or part of a lifetime.
Status drive the rules of sex. A man could sexually penetrate any one of lower social status, be it another man, woman, post pubescent boy, or slave, but he could not be sexually penetrated by any one of lower status.
In fact, there is a very famous army, The Sacred Band of Thebes, which was a troop consisting of male couples (lovers), which formed the elite force of the Theban army in the 4th century BCE. Thebes was a Greek city-state, like Athens and Sparta. The Sacred Band originally was formed of picked men in couples, each lover and beloved selected from the ranks of the existing Theban citizen-army. It proved unstoppable, even defeating Sparta, until they met Philip II of Macedon, with his son Alexander (Alexander the Great) in battle in 338 BCE. They died to the last man. Philip and Alexander erected a monument to their courage, which stand today.
Plutarch records the words of Philip II of Macedon, touring the field after the battle (in his Life of Pelopidas): "lying all where they had faced the long spears of his phalanx, with their armor, and mingled one with another, he was amazed, and on learning that this was the band of lovers and beloved, shed tears and said, ' Perish miserably they who think that these men did or suffered aught disgraceful!'" Philip buried their bodies with honor, setting up the Lion of Chaeronea over them. The grave was excavated in 1881, confirming Plutarch's account. Here is a photo of the monument: [link]
If you would like to know more about Ancient Greek and Roman customs around Same-sex sex, let me know.
DISCLOSURE:
In case you did not already know, I have studied Christian theology extensively, as well as some on Islam, Buddhism and Native American Traditions. However, I am not a Christian, nor do I believe in a God or Gods in any conventional way.
I am a Humanist1. To sum it up, I actively choose to be a good person of my own free will, without the threat of a hell, the promise of a heaven, or being subservient to a God. I am a COMPASSION based man.1 HUMANISM is a secular ideology that espouses benevolence through the use of reason, ethics, and justice, whilst specifically rejecting supernatural and religious dogma as a basis of morality and decision-making. Compassion is a key component to Humanism. Humanism affirms the dignity and worth of all people, based on the ability to determine right and wrong by appealing to universal human qualities, particularly rationality.
Humanism can be considered as a process by which truth and morality is sought through human investigation. In focusing on the capacity for self-determination, humanism rejects the validity of transcendental justifications, such as a dependence on belief without reason, the supernatural, or texts of allegedly divine origin. Humanists endorse universal morality based on the commonality of the human condition, suggesting that solutions to human social and cultural problems cannot be parochial.
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Hi there. First of all i would like to apolagize for my bad english knowledge, i hope youll understand the keys to this post, thx for your time.
Well iam not in to any religion, iam not homosexual or anything, iam trying to be open minded, but i think i should share my oppinion about this article of yours and the homosexuality as a major.
First of all there are many different aspects about variouse problems considering homosexuals. Iam not religiouse person so i belive in evoliution standarts and logical facts. The only problem i see, homosexuals raising children or even having normal families, i think this is a worst kind of scenario, since the gens can be cast from generation to generation, which i believe is not that good. From my point of view homoseuals that have families like that only seek good for thiereselves not thinking about the future of thiere child being homosexual, clearly you are talking about all the bad looks and understandings you recieve from straight people, but think about the children that are born in family with 1 homosexual parent, there are more chances that the genes will be inherited by the kid and he will recieve the same you did.. (using you i do not refer to you exactly since i dont know nothing about you as a person, i used it as an example).
Talking more globaly its logical that homosexuality is a problem. Mankind or any other specie cant evolve if each indicidual is a homosexual, it will couse extinction.
But as i said before i do not see anything bad between to same genre persons having a relationship, though it desturbs me seeing people like that in the street, but i can always turn my face the other way..
the major thing i dissagree with this post of yours is religion involvment in it. Why religion, is it really that much of a matter these days? i think you are digging deeper than the old tastament in this one. Here in my country, church (religion) is probably the only wall left holding against leting homosexuals adopt children and make thiere relationship in to a marriage by law, which would let them adopt children.
is it really important if a bible lets you have homosexual relationship or not? i think you are using a sin factor here for a bigger problems conserning the law of some countrys, rather than personal issues..
I hope you understood my point..
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You fail biology and grammar forever.
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I hope you realize that genes can ONLY be passed to the child if they were created by the two people. Since a lesbian or gay couple cannot procreate, it would be impossible for their child to 'inherit' homosexual genes.
What makes up a homosexual person isn't inherited, it is random. Do you know where homosexual children come from? Straight couples? It's true.
Everybody isn't a homosexual, so you don't actually have anything to worry about. Why aren't you more concerned about sterile people who can't make children at all? If needed, a homosexual person can be made to create a child at least.
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The genetic distribution for homosexuality has been consistent for thousands of years. Also,Homosexuality has been documented in over 1,500 species on our planet, with almost 500 of those species being animals, and the number is growing as more research is done.
Many studies have shown that children growing-up with homosexual parents do just as well as any other children. There is no harm done. Further, what is wrong with having children who are homosexual? If your son or daughter is homosexual, who you throw him or her onto the street? Would you deny your Gay son or daughter the right to raise a family of their own?
Today, in many parts of the world, being homosexual is not a problem and you can get a job, get promoted, make friends, etc, without problem. Many people hate Jewish people. Is that a reason to not make Jewish children? Most Homosexual couples with children, adopted the children. But it is true that many more are now using Gay male sperm to inseminate women, some straight, some Lesbian.
The world is changing rapidly and in another generation, homosexual children will be able to grow up without problem in much of the world. It is true that in Some Muslim countries and other backwards and primitive countries that change is slower. Arab countries, parts of Eastern Europe, and parts of Africa still have a lot of hateful people.
In the United States, Africa, Arabia, South America and Western Europe, Religion is the only reason why anyone hates homosexuals. Christianity and Islam promote hate of homosexuals. They do so with lies, by falsely translating biblical texts.
The TRUTH Matters, and Islam, Christianity & Judaism perpetuate lies about both God and Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ never once said one bad thing about homosexuality, and neither did God in his Ten Commandments. Carefully read Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and you will not find one word about homosexuality. It was not even until the 11th Century that the Catholic Church decided to see the story of Sodom and Gomorrah having to do with Homosexuality. Even the Jewish faith knows that story has nothing to do with homosexuality. Biblical historians know it is a lie. Christian Translators deliberately chose to interpret it as homosexual, and it is a lie. It is only in Paul, in the New testament, where translators took his Greek words and lied about their meaning. They did not use the correct definitions for the Greek words. They lie in the name of their god. How messed up is that?
Homosexuals should be allowed to adopt and raise children, just like anyone else. To do otherwise is BIGOTRY. Discrimination against a class of people, be it for skin color, religion, nationality, gender, or sexual orientations, is bigotry and it is wrong.
Christians, Jews, and Muslims use their religion as a weapon agains homosexuals, with close to two thousand years of murder, execution, torture, imprisonment, beatings, harassment, and bigotry, all in the name of their God. They use their Bible as justification for atrocities against human beings, all in the name of God. There is no way to justify homophobia, other than religion.
Homosexuality was accepted all over the world, prior to Christianity. It was part of normal sexuality in the Greek, Roman, and Persian empires.
Why does it disturb you to see homosexuals? In a study by the University of Georgia (not friendly to homosexuals) they found out that many homophobic men (men disturbed by other homosexuals), are actually bisexual themselves, and hate that part of themselves.
Why should it bother you to see two men are holding hands or kissing? This says that you judge them badly. Would it bother you to see two women kissing? Most straight men like that. Why not be tolerant of people who are different from yourself?
There is too much hate and intolerance in this world.
Matthew
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Well for me religion issint important and its loosing the fight against modern community, so in my oppinion there is no big need to involve god in this talk, well unleas you need a point to defend your statments in this duscussion.
Correct me if iam wrong, but i think there are no proof that normal children growing in a homosexual family will be normal and his grown wont be influenced because of that, i have read somewhere that one kind growing in this kind of family decided to change its genre, which i think is not normal..
The only fear i have about it is extinction, talking about animals, there are possibility that the sepecie can extinct because of that. with humans its a bit different than animals, we can make people in the lab (like you said about gay sperm being used artificial insemination) nature controls the quantity of gay individuals in the animal world, but it do not control that number in human world.
In my case it do not have anything to do with intolerance or hate, i do not show that towards others. iam talking about the whole specie, not only individuals.
it bothers me to watch two men kissing, actually its a little discusting for me, since iam strait, i dont know what kind of study your talking about, but if you cant stand it or your sexual organs are not stimulated by seeing this your not bixeual or homosexual..
guess iam just getting old..
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You fail to realize that Religion is the source of anti-gay forces. I've never met or heard of an atheist being homophobic. Homophobia derives from religions preaching against homosexuals.
You think there is no proof? You might want to do some research then. You'll be disappointed to find that you're very incorrect. A friend of mine was raised by a pair of men and they are heterosexual and nobody knew until they admitted it around senior year of highschool.
Homosexuality is not contagious or hereditary. The make up of a homosexual person is random and cannot be prevented as it cannot be detected until years after the child has been born. Homosexuality is not a choice. Just like I cannot suddenly choose to be lesbian. I've been built to be attracted to males.
The human species will never go extinct because of homosexuality. You should be more worried about sterile people who have no chance at all at creating children whereas a homosexual CAN produce what is needed to create life.
Nature does not control the amount of homosexuals created. They are made at random. Nature controls homosexual numbers just as much as it controls female or male numbers. The point being, Nature DOESN'T, the species does. The species chooses to kill off the homosexual individual. I've never once heard of animals killing one of their own kind over homosexuality. The only species I know of that does this is the human species.
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I do not believe in God myself. I am a humanist, a person who chooses to be good of my own free will, and centered in compassion.
There has been considerable study, starting in Western Europe, and then later in the United States, looking at families where the parent or parents of children are homosexual. The children grow up very normally and have no ill effects at all. You can compare that with the horror of many heterosexual parents and what they do to their children.
What is important to the wellbeing of a child is to be in a loving, safe, supportive and stable environment.
If you feel disgusted seeing two men kiss, then psychologically, it is hate-based. Disgust, by definition, is born of revulsion, loathing (intense dislike, hate) and profound disapproval of something offensive to you.
In your head, you are say your feelings have nothing to do with intolerance or hate, yet emotions, feelings, and responses to homosexuality show intolerance and hate (or at least extreme dislike).
In much of the world, including Western Europe, Straight men are NOT DISGUSTED seeing two men kiss, or holding hands. They have no negative feelings or disapproval. Their attitude is: 'If other guys want to kiss each other, then that is their business, not mine.' Their feelings are neutral. They are not disapproving or disgusted.
About the study I mentioned, the internalized homophobia is at a subconscious level. The study was made-up of men who said they were straight and only were sexual with women. They believed the study was about a different sexual issue. They answered many questions, which were designed to determine level of homophobia. Then they had a device put on their penis, which measures the amount of erection. Then they were shown pornographic xxx rated Straight videos, Lesbian videos, and Gay Male videos.
46% of the Homophobic Straight men got full erections from watching Gale Male Sex. That is almost half of the homophobic men getting sexually excited watch men having sex with men. Only 20% of homophobic straight men got no erections at all.
What men say, and how men's body's behave can be different things.
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guess i was wrong
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You are allowed your opinions. You were honest and respectful and I honor that, although I did not agree with you.
I have been with my partner for 21 years, so we can have very stable relationships. Most Gay men are not looking to have children, but some do.
I forgot to mention that my partner and I were Foster parents (temporary parents) to two children, a 7 year old boy and a 11 year old girl. It was a good experience and we helped them a lot and gave them a very loving home.
All the best,
matthew
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lol I stopped reading after I saw the word "introdiction"??
REALLY?
Spell right: THEN make argument.
me pound chest.
me troll.
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