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mernolan β Thoughts on Winged Humanoids
Published: 2010-10-28 15:51:13 +0000 UTC; Views: 17138; Favourites: 424; Downloads: 481
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HEY these have long since been replaced!new thing here: mernolan.deviantart.com/art/Wiβ¦
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Ok. Some critic is never a useless crap.
You're think it's better with more muscle mass? How about heat from overworking? You do know, that muscles are produce heat while they work? And while birds actually may be ok with hight temperature humans do not.
I presume that second scapular waist would be placed lower then first, so they don't heated too much. Maybe it works perfectly (if we were able to use some scientific program that can actually create any sort of new breed from scratch and animate it) and maybe not (not know until test).
Is anyone here never tried to do so some 'construct' and look can it work this particular way?
But I like your idea anyway )))
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I don't think putting a second scapulae on the other would be comfortable. Even if it were layered in muscle it'd still be slightly painful. I lowered the second pair of scapulae just a bit under the first pair, and didn't have to add much more muscle. But this is a Winged Humanoid and mine's a Human Avian Hybrid so i guess they'd still be considered different "species".
This is cool though he looks like a beast!Β I was just explaining my theory. ^^ Carry on!
fav.me/d696fl4
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eeeeeeeeey you've found my old and outdated thing of this, I have a newer version that I did as reference/tutorial mernolan.deviantart.com/art/Wiβ¦ but even that is old considering how far I've come since with anatomy since 2011, more things here 24.media.tumblr.com/43808b5b87β¦ and here mernolan.tumblr.com/post/53441β¦
I always like hearing about other theories because WHO KNOWS what's "right" when it comes to these sorts of things. Β There will always be lots of issues, so sometimes you just have to suspend disbelief
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Aye true!Β I base my anatomy theories off more of a sci-fi genre like Maximum Ride but the fantasy thing is pretty sweet too! ^^ As long as it makes some sense in some form! ^^
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This is pretty helpful. I was thinking of drawings some winged humanoids and this will really help me 
Great job!! Sorry for my english, It's been a long since I used it ;///;
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I'm glad you found it helpful!
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How would the female anatomy fit into this?
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I haven't thought through the female anatomy all that much yet, but I would think it would generally be the same and of course up to you as a creator. If you want them to be able to bear live children you'll have to consider how to modify the hips. For breasts, they sit on top of the muscle in human anatomy and would probably be the same for a winged humanoid
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Longer wing span plus less muscular bottom will creat less drag ... though if you look up a Grackle or some other bird that has an unusually long tail it might help ... or you could redesign the leg shape as well so that they natrually tuck under the body better.
In working the shoulder area I've taken the approach that avian wings would sprout from just inside and below the human shoulder blades
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A way to make flight less laborous would be to have the second shoulder dislocate from its joint in the second shoulderblade, wich would allow more freedom, I think 
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I don't think dislocating any joint would strengthen it D:
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Like a natural way to dislocate it. Like the way a snake can split it's jaw. But that would mean you would need extra ligaments and more well developed muscles...
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Perhaps. Will definitely need more developed structural system to support something like that
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Defidentally. But, if you had the proper developement of muscles and ligaments in the area, I hink it could work...
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Maybe - go ahead and try it!
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Oh, one other thing: what numbers did you get on wing length? My math turned out at least a 20 foot wing span for an average human. Workable, but it would require a rethink to make wings that would fold out of the way. I have them folding in, back and up above the head a bit (wish I had sketches ready to post) How are you handling the problem?
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I would say the wing span should be AT LEAST twice the height of the person - but it could vary with body and wing type. Broad wings (soaring birds like eagles, hawks etc) are probably the best wing type for humanoids because they provide the most lift and wouldn't have to flap as much to stay airborne.
For folding wings: with membrane wings you can just curl the digits in on themselves but for folded wings the feathers are stiff so you can't do that. The solution I've come up with for my character (who has feathery wings [link] ) is when he is standing or walking, he sort of hooks the wrist of the wing over his shoulders and if the tips drag, they drag; sitting he would rest them on the ground or whatever he is sitting on. Although these decisions are based more off his personality than an actual solution to ALL winged humanoids. I've seen other people give their characters fashion modifications that provide a way to rest their wings without looking too awkward or labor intensive.
If you do sketches show me and I can redline them for you if you want
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I think I will go with your suggestion of independent joints, I'd been considering that before because it's the only way to handle such a huge wingspan and still be able to walk bipedally. Otherwise, you'd end up with a creature like a bat, unable to do more than scuttle on the ground. You even found an answer for the landing issue. I tip my hat to you. I'll try and do some sketches, I'd love your thoughts, but it may be a bit, I'm always on a comic deadline.
I'm part of the Atla rpg, a play by post writing-focused game, and I've been turning one of our storylines into a comic. There are winged characters in it, and I've been having hell trying to make sense of how to draw them, going through various anatomies but unable to get good feedback. Seeing what you've done and your ideas have fixed several of the biggest issues for me, and talking them over with someone versed in anatomy is great. You've been a great help!
Oh, btw, if you're interested
Parmeshen comic: www.parmeshentales.com
Atla rpg: [link]
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I'm glad I could help 
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So, here's what I've got worked up: [link] I'd love your opinions, I'm still working out the bugs. Thanks!
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Now this, I like. Well thought! I've been considering the same issue, and I agree completely with your last note:it's labor intensive and would be more work than it's worth...but the idea of a humanoid with flight is too good to pass up.
I've been thinking of handling it by giving the creatures a 'kiel' of sorts attached to the backbone. Like the kiel of a bird, it would allow for the attatchment of the required layer of heavy muscles, without destroying a human appearance from the front, though their backs would look overly large and almost hunched to human eyes. I figure they'd have longer phlanges on the spinal vertabre, similar to a bison's vertabre allowing it the muscles and fat of its shoulders and hump. This also removes the problem of the arms being impeded by wing muscles, but it does mean that they'd be a bit odd by human standards. What do you think?
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thank you!
As far are your proposed theory, it would be interesting to get it to work (making the flight muscles based off the back) but I don't know that it's "possible" to do with any wing type other than insect wings (their wing movements are based off rapid contractions of their abdomens) plus I don't think you can really get around destroying the human figure (which isn't necessarily a bad thing! Could have some interesting outcomes) The pectoral muscles on birds are HUGE (25% of their body mass), they need the keeled sternum to support those muscles to support flight - the pectorals produce the powerful down stroke that propels them through the air where as the back muscles (deltoid, trapezius, etc) are responsible for pulling the wing up only for the next down stroke and aren't nearly as heavy as the pectorals. [link] In other words, you have to have something in the front or at the very least on the sides, that will pull the wing forward/down. The vertebrae provide a place to anchor down the muscles and while taller or fused vertebrae (which is sort of like the keel on the back you mentioned) would make sense, probably don't need vertebrae quite as large as that of a bison - those large vertebrae they have support their neck and head [link] not so much their back/fore legs.
You could look more into the anatomy of bats and pterodactyls if you want to preserve the human figure because they do not have keeled sternums. Pterodactyls have a breast plate, which will provide the surface area to attach the muscle to without the disfigured chest the keel will create. Also do some comparative anatomy studies and research on how the muscles act on the limbs. The latissimus dorsi [link] acts on the humorus the same way the pectoralis major dose, the difference being that the latis-dorsi wraps around and connects to the back of the hip and the pect major attaches to the sternum - maybe consider making the latis-dorsi the major flight muscles?
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Now that's an idea, using the lats. If I had my druthers I'd have made them batlike and skipped an extra set of limbs entirely, which is a lot more physiologically plausible, but I'm partnering on this project and my partner wants the traditional arms and wings being. The keel on the back (sorry about SP) was my best attempt at a compromise. The breast plate is a nice idea, I may go with that. I'll take a look at bat musculature to get the flight muscles a bit more correct. And I noticed braking and steering was a headache for you too. Landing also worries me; unless the creature evolves special shock absorbers there will be trouble; parachuters regularly break legs landing because the leg can't take that sudden weight at speed. Interesting conundrum. I've considered using something like the flap of skin between the legs of a flying squirrel, but it'd be a damn nusiance for a biped when walking.Thanks for the links by the way.
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Bird swoop in, pull up a little and try to slow themselves down before they land. So for something as clumsy and bulky as a winged human this would probably be the best option. For steering, the best adaptation would be to add a tail - if you don't want a tail, you could make the feet and legs some kind of clumsy rudder. For my character, I've made the wrist, elbow and shoulder joints independent of each other (in birds wings, they have a ligament that prevents these joints from moving separately from each other) which would in theory give him some means to steer.
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could they use their wing feathers and/or legs for steering?
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with the already intense strain put on the wings to keep them airborne, using the wings for steering as well would only add more (not saying that you can't do it, just trying to think realistically). They could probably use their legs as drag to slow down/land, but ideally, a tail would be the best rudder
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I mean with the feathers on the end of the wings adjusting their angle. That wouldn't put too much strain on the wings would it? It is an idea from James Patterson's Maximum Ride series
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I did some research into how birds steer and brake in flight and I'm sorry to disappoint, but its all in the tail feathers 
With that in mind, you could probably figure out some way to modify the wings/feathers for steering (or maybe look at how other animals steer in flight and add some of their features). I've seen one idea out there where a winged humanoid uses its legs and feet to brake for landing and maybe steer, wings with multiple sections, some kind of fin or rudder.
On the other hand, I wouldn't say that using the primary feathers for steering is completely unheard of
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THIS.
Slighty off-topic, this makes the whole Maximum Ride books even more unrealistic. I thought it's really unrealistic before seeing this since the wings of the humans can somehow retract into a small slit in the back rendering them unnoticable, where does all that mass go?
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they because MAGIC
I mean, it would be preeeetty cooool if i could restract wings into my back, but i think its waaay more exciting to tinker with the anatomy c:
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...I'm pretty SATISFIED with this explanation 8D
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This is great, very clear and well drawn. I personally would have placed the wings lower on the torso than the arms so the pectorals and flight muscles don't get cramped together so much, but what you've done still looks like it could actually work c:
I checked out the other diagrams you linked to as well, the second one in particular is going to come in handy I think ^^
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thank you! I hope it helps c:
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Hah, I was just thinking about this today because I was drawing a dragon. I was trying to decide whether to go the realistic route or just use artistic license and ignore physics...still can't decide...
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maybe do a little of both??
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I think one of the things you should consider is larger/longer wigspan. My creature construction teacher once gave us advice on drawing Pegasuses (Pegasi?) correctly, and the wingspan was ridiculously large (about 4 or 5 times the length of the body, it was like looking at an Albatross). Because a human is such a heavy creature, it'd need very large wings to hold it in the air. Just a thought, since I know it can be annoying to have the wings taking up most of the picture.
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Yeah I know, realistically, the wings would have to be HUGE for these guys to get anywhere :u
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I love how you're going beyond the visually apparent to break one of fantasy's oldest themes into mechanic and biological components here. It's always refreshing to see a feasible take on mankind's dreams.
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thank you! I did some more research and I'm currently working on a compilation that's a little more organized and hypothetically speaking, more 'anatomically correct'
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With the amount of thought that you put into this one, the next should most definitely be interesting.
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Beautifully done, the anatomy looks fantastic ^^ You can really see that you've put lots of thought into this
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Oh! I found you)) The person that I need! Sorry in advance for my english)
I'm creating now one HUGE literature work with fantastic world that is(should be) thought through from beginning to end... And there are special creatures, something close to Gryphons... Anthropomorphic gryhpons... So, I see you know anatomy(at least better than me) - could you help me with "biological design" of my creatures?))
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I could help you with design and sort of guide you through creating creature that look/move believably, but I'm not exactly and expert on fantastical anatomy yet xD
would love to help where I can and listen to your ideas c:
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Oh! That's wonderful!)) I'll prepare my speech for you) But I believe tomorrow, because it's 5:16AM here...
But some introducing words: there is a world, where is "no ground". Well it is, but nobody can reach it... And most part of life is existing in the air, where are millions of floating rocks and islands, millions of "flying forests" (special type plants)... And the most interesting is that I made EVERYTHING(nearly) believable and adequate to real nature laws... That's cooler than just to take everything from your head
I'll send you a note with all details... And for now I can show you some proposals that I and another artist have done.
Mine:
[link] -Yes, the same like you, I thought about the way their body could be constructed)
[link] - I'm not really good artist... yet)
Mrs Valentine's:
[link] - the best variant I think...
[link]
[link] - the last. We were trying and trying to make his body beautiful and realistic at the same time)
I hope you'll help us))
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you're universe sounds pretty kick-ass! xD
The sketches look good so far, but I will wait to advise you until you give me more information on them. c:
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