HOME | DD
RyanSilberman β 8 MORE things WRONG with Paper Mario: Color Splash
#3ds #bowser #colorsplash #e3 #luigi #marioandluigi #mariorpg #nintendo #papermario #peach #rpg #toad #wrong #wiiu #papermariostickerstar #stickerstar #ryansilberman #e32016 #makepapermariogreatagain #morethingswrong
Published: 2016-06-15 23:33:12 +0000 UTC; Views: 1548; Favourites: 7; Downloads: 7
Redirect to original
Description
Link to 16 Things WRONG with Paper Mario Color Splash:Β ryansilberman.deviantart.com/aβ¦Yep, just as I predicted from the very first time I laid eyes on this disaster - This is going to suck royally.
Related content
Comments: 111
What future titles? It's obvious that Color Splash is going to flop and people will just hate Nintendo's guts even more.
π: 0 β©: 1
The ones they claim to make after Color Splash
π: 0 β©: 1
I know that. I meant to say that Color Splash will obviously flop and there will be no way anybody will demand a sequel.
π: 0 β©: 1
BTW, sorry if I'm dragging this discussion. I'm just really pissed off about this "new" Paper Mario game.
π: 0 β©: 1
Oh believe me, I wouldn't have made these "Things WRONG with" lists if I wasn't pissed off with the "new" "Paper" Mario game.
π: 0 β©: 0
So, as a guy who thought Sticker Star was an average Mario game and has played the other Mario RPGs, why is Color Splash going to suck? It looks like a better platformer than Super Paper Mario and the paint mechanic looks like it'll (hopefully) tone down on the "thing usage".
π: 0 β©: 1
Color Splash may seem average if you think Sticker Star is average, but it does seem like there are pointers that are bound to make the experience worse. For example, the card system has you fill up your cards to use an attack. Every time. Meaning it adds a few seconds per turn every time, making battles not so instant and pick-up-and-play.
Also the scene with Mario staring at the Toad getting his life sucked out by an enemy he could easily beat is one of the most idiotic scripted sequences I've ever seen.
π: 0 β©: 1
Isn't it only a couple seconds though? Battles in Sticker Star rarely ever lasted long and from what I've heard you only charge the cards to boost the power. That said, I did an all enemy run of Sticker Star so that may add up if I do the same here.
That second complaint feels like a nitpick though. "Heroes watching as villains do something" is a common thing (case in point: the Mega Man 1 remake on the PSP has the character literally stand there as Dr. Wily repairs his final boss machine). Β
π: 0 β©: 1
I still find the sequence dumb anyway, though. It is especially glaring when the original three games had a good sense of intelligence and would be the kind of games to mock those aspects
π: 0 β©: 1
I don't recall the games mocking that sort of thing. Closest I could remember were the blatantly obvious traps and maybeΒ the part where Grodus left while the party was fighting Bowser at the end of Thousand Year Door.Β
π: 0 β©: 1
I wasnt saying they directly had, only that they had a severe sense of intelligence to them and wouldnt stoop so low
π: 0 β©: 1
If you are referring to the characters then I don't really recall any. Kinda like how Mario's allies in Thousand Year Door never realize that something might be up with Mario when Doopliss pulls the body switch and how Mario pretty much always fell for the fake ? block.Β
π: 0 β©: 1
What fake ? block?
Also there are quite a few ways how the Doopliss scene is justified. There was never any indication prior to the moment it happened that Doopliss was capable of body-swapping. How was anybody supposed to see that coming?
In Color Splash's case, Mario is literally letting a generic mook,of which he's beaten many times before, do his job a few feet away.
π: 0 β©: 1
In the first three games there's always a point where the villains try to trick the heroes via a trap using a fake ? block (The Koopa Bros in Paper Mario, Lord Crump in Chapter 2 of TYD, I don't know the chapter but Mimi does it in Super) and no matter how suspicious/obvious a trap it is, the game requires you to fall for it.
You'd think that the partners would be suspicious when Mario, who barely talks and is usually kind suddenly becomes more arrogant and chatty. I believe the partners even comment on how unusual it is, but don't put the pieces together until after Doopliss is revealed as a fraud. Also does Doopliss even use that power ever again?
And, just as how the Doopliss scene is justified as the partners have no idea Doopliss can bodyswap, the Slurp Guy scene can be argued as justified since I doubt Mario knew Bowser's forces were literally sucking the color out of everything (and its not like the situation won't end in a tutorial fight/get resolved a second later anyway).
Β
π: 0 β©: 1
Since the game requires you to fall for it, it's not really something that the characters should be faulted for. And it's a natural instinct regardless considering that one would always want to hit ? blocks for goodies.
As for Doopliss, Mario does talk via the text choices that the player gets to pick from on occasion - The characters act as if Mario said those things, so it isn't like the choices break from the story being told. Even if Mario seems more chattier and arrogant to the partners, there are many other conclusions that the characters could perceive from those notions. Maybe the absurd sense of depression in Twilight Town got to him. Or perhaps he's becoming more confident and cocky after the first three chapters. Doopliss does use the power again during battle when he's part of the Shadow Sirens.
With the Slurp Guy, Mario has seen and killed Shy Guy type enemies since 1988, and variations since then always had some sort of other ability that Mario has nevertheless been able to take down as easily, such as the Fly Guy and Snifit enemies. Slurp Guy is no different (and while Mario fighting him AFTER the fact doesn't mean he shouldn't have stopped him BEFORE that Toad temporarily died)
π: 0 β©: 1
Wouldn't the game forcing you to do it mean, in universe, that the characters didΒ fall for it? I mean, suppose Mario, Goombario and Koops fell for the ? block switch and fell into the basement jail of the Koopa Bros' Fortress and the Bob-Ombs were held somewhere else or the walls weren't weak enough to be blown up by Bombetta. What happens then?
Note the words "on occasion". Mario's kind of like Ferb from "Phineas and Ferb" - He "can" talk (even at length if Fortune Street is to be believed) but he generally prefers not to. Link is another example of that. Also, Mario feeling depressed from Twilight Town wouldn't make sense, especially if he was fine before fighting Doopliss which undid the curse, meaning he would logically be happier. Also, Mario is well-known as being the hero of the Mushroom Kingdom for sometime now. Surely if he saves the kingdom every two months, any cockiness or egotism would either be immediately evident or non-existent. Especially if the suddenly chatty Mario dragged all of you back to the steeple despite reclaiming the Crystal Star to fight the oddly silent Doopliss, who's partner leaves partway through the fight because she realized that she was actually helping Mario. Β Β
The problem is not that Mario doesn't recognize a Shy Guy, but that he might not know what was going on and how or why the Shy Guys were sucking the color out of the Toads. And, characters standing around while the villains enact their scheme is common enough that it's a trope. Why didn't Mario and the partners attack Grodus while he was monologing before unleashing the Shadow Queen? Why didn't someone stop Luigi when Dimentio took control of him in the finale of Super Paper Mario? Why did the bros allow Kamek to fly in and steal Peach in New Super Mario Brothers. And part of the reason this is a nitpick is that its a short sequence at the beginning of the game that gets fixed a second later. Who cares if its dumb if its that insignificant? Β
π: 0 β©: 1
Well, aspects of game design still matter to keep the story going, so of course there had to be a way out of there for the player to keep things moving.
I'm just making assumptions. Seeing as body swaps are rare, if non-existant, in Mario games prior to TTYD, there simply wasn't a way for anybody to see it coming.
The problem is that the Sticker Star series is not written the same way as actual Paper Marios. There is no way the writers would have considered any sort of fridge brilliance or thought outside the box with Mario's means of encountering bad guys. This Mario universe is just the typical mainline world only in papercrafts. This Mario only knows to defeat enemies first and ask questions possibly never. The original Paper Mario trilogy was notable for averting tropes (hence the shock that the body swap with Doopliss happened when the Chapter seemed like it was over). Much like Doopliss, Grodus is a character that only got to be established in that very game; he's more competent than Bowser and has a hi-tech stronghold on the moon. It's not a normal situation for Mario to be in, which is one of many things that makes the Paper Mario series what it was - Having Mario in situations and worlds never executed before in a Mario universe. In Dimentio's case, there's no telling if there's any sort of catch or side effects for Mr. L's benefit that Mario and co. don't know about.
New Super Mario Bros has nothing to do with this.
π: 0 β©: 1
Even so, again, it makes the partners seem pretty dumb to me now that I think about it that situation.
The problem is not how the current Mario universe is portrayed, but how its used (something which, unfortunately, I feel the RPGS, or at least the latest Paper Mario, are not grasping). Like, this is a world made out of Paper: You can probably come up with some creative ideas for puzzles and situations using that element (such as in the trailer where a bunch of Shy Guys jump Mario and begin pulling up the ground behind him into a curl, causing him to run and dodge stuff that's falling down). In fact, part of the problem with the bosses and some of the puzzles were that they were either too vague or the hints came too late (pretty much all of Kersti's boss hints fall under this, as does the vacuum in the oasis level). I do not recall an instance where "classic" Paper Mario does ask questions first since most of the villains are either blatantly villains or are reveal soon enough to not be/actually be a baddie. And how is Doopliss pulling a bodyswitch avoiding a trope? It's a plot twist, sure, but other than how short the chapter is, it isn't really avoiding a trope, especially since the games do use plenty of "common tropes" (such as pretty much all of "Super Paper Mario"'s story). Judging by the rest of your words, I believe you meant to say "it breaks the usual formula" which would be more understandable and a valid complaint (albeit, not what we were discussing).
And, to be fair, Bowser's competence really depends on the game as "Paper Jam" and "Galaxy" show that Bowser can actually be competent.
I brought up New Super Mario Bros as an example. "Mario and co. stand there while Bowser kidnaps Peach/the Sprixies is common enough that Bowser's character page on Tvtropes mentions it.
π: 0 β©: 1
If I have to be honest, the very things you're discussing about are some of the many very things I loathe about the Sticker Star direction. I didn't really care about the world being made of paper; it makes for a cool art style, but it should have been kept as only that, save for those abilities Mario gets to use for the overworld puzzles. Prior to Sticker Star, the idea of paper never overlapped the need to tell a story. In fact, publications, back when the original Paper Mario was in the making, merely compared the visuals to Parappa and kind of dismissed it on account of the look, only to find out there's an excellent RPG inside and that the visuals are complementary and don't take over the fun of the game. Take that out of the equation and you're left with exactly what those publications mocked back then - Which is what Sticker Star and Color Splash are.
The puzzles and bosses in Sticker Star can absolutely suck it. I will never forget the fact that I used a walkthrough 90% of the time and often thought "REALLY? THAT was how the puzzle was supposed to solved?!" The fact that bosses are only killable through Things that you wouldn't expect to use by then drive the issue home, and do a great job at making me consider this and possibly Color Splash as the worst Mario games ever. I'll never, EVER forgive them for the Yoshi Sphinx level, where the exit was purposely eclipsed by the fixed camera angle.Β
I'd rather not go back to arguing about the whole "if partners are actually smart enough to realize what's up" thing, but what I mean is the general writing and characterization of the original Paper Marios don't treat the player like a child. They don't hinder any part of the story they're telling to appeal to a demographic. They tell it and tell it thoroughly, with drama that can legitimately bring chills down spines and comedy that can actually make people laugh. All in these wonderful new worlds that Mario has never experienced anything like prior. When has there ever been another Rogueport, for example?Β
Tropes are not bad. They're everywhere in any piece of media ever existed. It's just the particular kinds and the executions of them that could possibly matter.
I'm not saying Bowser isn't competent at all, but Grodus shows to have much more prowess (At least up until the Shadow Queen knocks him clean off as soon as she wakes) and much more to back himself up with.
π: 0 β©: 1
Well, sorry to say, but that seems to be the direction the newer games will be going in, according to the interview Gamexplain did with the director. It's weird, stuff like the partner cards and the exp bar seem like compromises for those who disliked the changes, but then they say that having a second RPG is redundant when "Mario & Luigi" exists. Then you factor how Paper Mario itself started off Super Mario RPG sequel (explaining much of the overlap) and the situation becomes a bit more weird. Personally, I feel that it moreso depends on how the ideas are executed and that its pretty much the equivalent of games like Kirby's Epic Yarn.
I don't remember the Yoshi Sphinx level being an issue though (Drybake Stadium's top floor and that one level where you have to fall down the holes in a certain order on the other hand...) and the puzzles I was stuck on was because I didn't know which Thing I needed. Generally Thing puzzles were the worst. On that note the bosses were terrible, aside from Petey due to how his gimmick works. The kicker is that, on their own, the bosses aren't that bad. Then they do something that, if you don't have the right sticker, can make them near impossible to defeat (Gooper Blooper is a fun boss, until he poisons you and you miss all the time. And dare I mention Tower Power Pokey...). ItΒ isΒ possible to defeat them without the Thing (especially if you sequence break which is hilariously easy to do in this game), but Kersti's message when you do so comes out more demeaning then the developers intended (something along the lines of "Don't you think there was a better way?" or something like that. And if you consider these to be the worst Mario games ever, then your views are different from mine.
I don't recall this game treating the player like a child though. Certainly less so than "Mario & Luigi: Dream Team". The thing is, it's hard to judge characterization in Sticker Star since, aside from Kersti, Kamek, Bowser Jr. and Peach, there aren't many recurring characters that speak or get more than a couple lines. The traveling Toad sidequest was pretty nice, as was Wiggler's plotline (AlphaDream thought so too apparently), but that's basically it for npcs aside from ones you visit for standard purposes. Bosses rarely get much since the overall plotline is in the background usually (World 3 is the only World with a coherent plotline) so the implications of the crowns outside of Megasparkle Goomba and Mizzzter Blizzzard isn't even explored, the enemies are amusing but usually show up once or twice barring the Goombas, I almost suspect that Kersti's role in the game was initially different, explaining the implications she had a grudge against Mario early in the game and during the final battle as well as her most sympathetic moment being hard to read leaving only her rant afterwards (she shouts at Mario after he rescues her in Scuttlebug Burrow because she thought he almost left her for dead) and the characters that are shared across these games and Paper Jam (Bowser Jr., Kamek just barely, Morton, and I suspect the rest of the Koopalings as well) I find their characterizations stronger in Paper Jam than Sticker/Color Splash (Bowser Jr. and Morton in particular I feel are Flanderized/exaggerated compared to their "Mario & Luigi"Β counterparts). Bowser is complicated.
That said I do find the humor in the game to be pretty good (stuff like the Sniffit or Whiffit questions, Kersti and Kamek's banter, the entirety of the Enigmansion, the animations for the Things on-and-off the field, Kersti's "But Thou Must" moment if you try to refuse her Battle Spinner introduction/tutorial, the Green Guy newspapers) but most people are too hung up on the paper jokes.
The Location thing is just something I feel has affected the Mario series as a whole, sans the 3D games and Mario Kart: using the exact same level tropes with the exact same appearances. Compare this with Kirby, which recycles assets like character models and what not, but actually makes new assets and level themes as well.
That is true, but there are times when the three games played tropes in a pretty straight fashion (such as, again, the entire backstory to "Super Paper Mario".
The thing is, Bowser barely interacted with the X-nauts in Thousand Year Door and its part of an issue that lead to Bowser suffering villain decay.
π: 0 β©: 1
Honestly, I can't buy anything that they said in the interview. All I could see from it is a sign of incompetence and unwilling to answer back in a direct manner to acknowledge what the interviewer implies regarding older Paper Marios. The Thousand Year Door coexisted with Superstar Saga. It isn't redundant and they should (and probably do) know it.
Oh God Drybake Stadium. I'm kinda surprised I can even remember the level from your description, as after the misery that was my first and only playthrough, I only have memories of the idiocies that broke me during my time with it, but nothing specific like level names.Β
Frankly, any game that forces me to use a walkthrough is something I frown upon immediately. It's why I don't play the original Legend of Zelda or Metroid, for example, but at least they had the novelty of being ambitious for their time. Sticker Star was released in 2012 and thrives on the worst archaic means of structure. And then there's the extremely bland cast of characters, extremely bland environments that are ripped from New Super Mario Bros., Big Lipped Alligator Moments that exist only for the sake of being Big Lipped Alligator Moments, the garbage truckload of paper and sticker puns and "jokes" (Yes I know there's another 5-10% of dialogue that doesn't do that, but those moments are far and few between), non-talking Bowser, an annoying floating thing that gives Navi a run for her money and whose hints don't even help much, and.......and................Screw this game....There is so much more I absolutely hate about the thing, but I think those points drive home my insanity enough. And the fact that Color Splash is literally repeating everything does make me realize that there this truly is a different series altogether that just so happens to carry the Paper Mario name in the loosest manner possible.
The lack of characterization in Sticker Star is exactly one of those hundred problems. Kersti carrying much of it fails to help matters that's for sure. And then they pull the heroic sacrifice out of their ass as a desperate attempt to make players feel sympathetic as if she actually deserved any.Β
I do at least give Paper Jam credit for still being a Mario & Luigi game at its core (albeit with a lack of world originality and an addition of Toads to find). It at least tries to make an effort to personify the typical Mushroom Kingdom setup. And AlphaDream actually gives a damn about their creative integrity (hence their ability to court Nintendo off from Sticker Star-izing M&L Dream Team). They kinda messed up a bit by trying to appeal to newcomers and not figuring out how to make a balanced plot with the post-Sticker Star paper characters in the mix (hence the Bowser-kidnaps-Peach plot), but with those two things out of the way now, I have high hopes that the next M&L game is normal again.
I don't believe the Mario series ALWAYS recycles the graphical styles for the world themes they follow, but the New Super Mario Bros series sticks out like a sore thumb in this regard, kinda as if it does truly represent the whole franchise on the matter. I love the platforming in the games, but Christ Almighty they made me feel desperate for something fresh, which makes 2012's Sticker Star pretty poor timing. Thankfully, 2013's Mario 3D World and Dream Team satisfied me greatly.
I'm fine with tropes played straight as long as I can still feel connected and engaged with the game world. Super Paper Mario's backstory did leave me curious as to where they were going with it (much like a lot of things in the game, actually), and when the connection is made, I end up feeling bad for Tippi (Who unlike Kersti, was not annoying and was actually helpful, so she did deserve sympathy). Of course, Sticker Star played a great deal of tropes wrongly in my eyes.
To be fair, Bowser wasn't quite the focus in The Thousand Year Door. And even despite that he fell behind Mario's footsteps throughout the adventure, the eventual battle he has with Mario before the Shadow Queen encounter is pretty badass and makes up for his process getting to there.
π: 0 β©: 1
Those criticisms are valid they're valid so there's not much else I can say. I do feel that they're trying to improve in some ways (collecting Green paint allows you to increase the amount of paint Mario can carry, the new paint can seems more relaxed than Kersti and it looks like you actually get a chance to bond with him a bit, The Koopalings will actually have characterization, but not as much as Paper Jam unfortunately, etc.), but if you weren't impressed by Sticker Star, you probably won't be won over here. In my opinion, using walkthroughs is not shameful (lord knows how people would have beaten games like "The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy- if you truly want to see illogical and frustrating puzzles, check that game out) but games that don't control properly or "feel" wrong (Hello Sonic and the Secret Rings) irk me. With Sticker Star, I feel like there's potential, but the strange puzzles and pointless battles drag it down (though Color Splash does appear to be addressing the latter). Kinda like how I feel like Kersti has potential (a hot headed guardian who's upbringing seems more casual and is more inexperienced despite her attempts to be ladylike) but the sheer lack of plot and useless hints make her come across as annoying (she's kinda like Navi where you have to disconnect her from a gameplay perspective to be like her more and even then, Navi still wasn't screwed over like Kersti is). Actually those sum up the problem Sticker Star suffered (aside from the obvious jarring shift): It had plenty of interesting ideas, but didn't utilize them effectively.
Characterization in Sticker Star relates to the above kinda. Wiggler and the traveling Toad were pretty much the only characters with a character arc, with the former's being so nice they did an abridged version in Paper Jam. I've already said my piece on Kersti, the bosses didn't really illustrate the "gone mad with power" thing aside from Megasparkle Goomba and Mizzter Blizzard and the more distinct personality Toads needed a bit more to stand out. Then there's Bowser Jr., who does have a few good lines buried in there, but overall feels pointless. Admittedly, Junior has been getting sidelined for a while now, but Paper Jam actually uses that as a minor plot point and uses it to give him depth (namely, the implication that his father ignores him whenever he isn't involved in the current scheme). I kinda thought about the idea of having them bring in more characters like Daisy, Wario, Waluigi, the Kong Family, etc but the way Junior, Kamek, Morton and "Super Paper Mario" Bowser were handled is something I might have to consider.
Bowser not talking is... complicated and kind of ties in to what I was saying earlier about the whole Bowser in Thousand Year Door thing: According to the Iwata asks, Bowser is silent because Miyamoto disliked his portrayal in earlier games. As someone on Gamefaqs pointed out, the only Paper Mario game Miyamoto had little involvement in was Super Paper Mario (which is one of Bowser's most comic relief roles). It seems like Nintendo wants Bowser in sort of a neutral area in terms of villainy (Take Super Mario 3D World where Bowser successfully takes over the Sprixie Kingdom under Mario's nose and proceeds to fight him in a large purple car later.) so him suffering that much Villain Decay without any major balance (unlike Mario & Luigi where his incidents are either out of his control, minor in terms of screen time or made up for by him being an independent main character) probably did it. Even in Thousand Year Door, he's pretty much just there to eventually be a Big Lipped Alligator Moment Diablous Ex Machina (in which case why not have Grodus simply grab Peach and take her into the inner chamber? Wasn't he just about to kill her?), he and Kammy simply leave after he's done, and compared to his fight in the original Paper Mario (where he has the Star Rod) and Sticker Star (where he has different ways to attack and counter Mario's strategies) it can come off as more by the numbers. It doesn't help that he comes out of nowhere both times and one of those fights is optional. It's a shame Bowser gets such a humorous personality which he loses not only in the game where he's finally back to being the main villain, but also where his son is introduced.
AlphaDream's interesting to consider since, as far as we know, Dream Team was the only game Nintendo effectively tried to meddle in (which they pretty much ignored). Even with Paper Jam, the only bit of meddling they mention is that Miyamoto suggested they change the running mechanic to what we have now. Stuff like lack of originality concerning the worlds, I theorize, might have to do with reusing the assets of Sticker Star (They did say that one of the plot ideas they threw around was the Mushroom Kingdom turning to Paper or having to go between the Paper World and the Normal World). In fact, they say that the plot was initially more complex, with red herrings and what-not, but the script was bloated, so they decided to focus on the relationships between the characters and their counterparts. I don't see how the game applied to much to newcomers, unless you're talking about the tutorials in which case Dream Team was far worse (WE'RE GONNA OFFER YOU TWO BADGE TUTORIALS BEFORE FORCING YOU TO WATCH IT ANYWAY!). I expect Mario & Luigi to go back to normal soon as well.
I'm pretty sure the environments are the problem. Notice that people consider "New Super Mario Bros U" to be one of, if not the best in the "New" series. I'm pretty sure I've heard the "bland artstyle" hurled at other Mario games as well (although, in fairness to Color Splash, it looks like, judging by World 1, its trying to downplay this or tone it down). That's partially why I brought up Kirby: The games share a graphical style but change the aesthetics so the environments aren't so "samey". 3D Land and 3D World avoided this since they're extensions of the "Super Mario Galaxy" system and brought in more level motifs and thus more level variety. Of course, this begs the question of why do the 3D games have different motifs per level while "New Super Mario Bros" recycles the same 8 per game? They apparently even planned a mechanical world before replacing it with a mountain one during the first game's production.
Β
π: 0 β©: 1
When a game has me use a walkthrough, I end up seeing it as bad design since the game itself fails to properly convey anything about the method of progress, especially when Sticker Star harps on the more archaic means of exploration. If battles then be fixed for Color Splash, then good on those that fix it, but as long as Things are present, I'm sure my interest in the battle system can still wane quickly.Β
Now that I think about it, it is rather dumbfounding to realize other Mario characters aren't playing any roles in the RPGs. I think characters like Wario and Waluigi could be written terrifically if handled as well as characters from the original Paper Mario trilogy. But nope. Koopalings and Bowser Jr....
What I don't get judging by that is that Bowser's reason is justified for teaming with Mario and co. in Super Paper Mario. There'd be no world and no Princess Peach to kidnap. Even in the game itself, he's a boss fight a couple times anyway.
Not so much tutorials, but I think it's an implication that newcomers would be able to hop right into a Mushroom Kingdom scenario before going off into the weirdness of the other worlds. So I assume anyway.Β
I was one of the people that said New Super Mario Bros. U was the best in the series, but I more-or-less said it on account of the strong level design. I liked that the textures for the tiles and such at least got a change-up, but in hindsight, the food-naming convention was only there to hide the worlds are just as they were in previous installments.
Color Splash's World 1 immediately had me recall a setting from 3D World. I don't think it's going to be downplayed per se.
My assumption for the NSMB series is that that's the kind of series they wanted to milk. They could just have a level design team do most of the work and that'd be a NSMB game. And the games are top-sellers, so they know they can print money this way.
π: 0 β©: 1
For me, the primary issues with the Things are the bosses. With the puzzles it varies between obvious ("This snow is blocking the way, I'll just use fire based Thing) to somewhat confusing (I needed a vacuum? That was a power outlet?). We've only seen like one Thing Puzzle so I can't tell if the puzzles have improved and worse case scenario they can write better hints. Bosses are more unforgivable since you would need advance forewarning for the boss (though in most cases you can simply run away. doesn't completely excuse it). Again, some bosses can have telegraphed weaknesses, at least in hindsight (Tower Power Pokey is in a baseball stadium, Bowser Snow Statue, need I say more) so at this stage, I can only hope they have some sort of warning. I disagree with you regarding the map system tough since it allows you to quickly get back to Decalburg to transform the Things/buy a Thing you found before. As a whole I find the map system to be easier backtracking-wise since it means you can quickly move between certain landmarks. That said, it can be a pain if you're going through a level, get pretty far and then realize that you needed a specific Thing. So for backtracking as a whole: You do it more often, but its easier/quicker.
That's partially my point: The Mario RPGs are the only place where characters can get development, so why restrain the games to only the main four? People have been dreaming of Peach and Daisy or Wario and Waluigi shenanigans in the Mario & Luigi series. AlphaDream made Toadsworth hilarious with his overreactions are worries and they made Toadette a creative architect. They took character traits of the Koopalings that had only been implied or brought up in descriptions and wrote them as a fun quirky group of minions. They handled Bowser Jr. perfectly; In both his battle in Dream Team and Paper Jam, they show him using games and trickery to fight the Mario Bros while in story he's an anti-villain: His actions in the game stem from him wanting to keep his new best friend from returning to the Paper World and is otherwise unconnected with what Bowser and the Koopalings are doing. Now imagine what AlphaDream could do for Waluigi or Daisy or Wario. Imagine what they could do with Captain Syrup, The Kong Family, the Kremlings...
Now compare that with Intelligent Systems. Morton can't even speak coherently, Bowser Jr. can be summed up as "GIMMIE YOUR STICKERS" and Bowser... well there's a reason he was mute in Sticker Star.
It's not so much in Bowser teaming up with Mario, more how it was done. by the time "Super Paper Mario" came around, Bowser had already been "worfed" but "Super" made him incredibly stupid and kinda pathetic as well. In most of the other Mario RPGs, fights with Bowser happen because he isn't involved enough to realize what's happening. That's not the case in the second fight in "Super", or at least, not as much as or RPGs. Likewise, Bowser's pretty much a punchline in some cases including the team up scene where Mario and Peach must explicitly tell him that he won't be able to conquer the world if there isn't one to conquer. Bowser literally expected to rule the world even if it got destroyed by the void. There's also the running gag of him referring to Peach as his wife, despite it leading to the end of the Multiverse (and he doesn't do something like boast about how he'll simply save the multi-universe or anything like that. He simply reiterates that they're married), he whines about losing to Mario and someone described one of his attacks as "running at Mario while flailing his arms".
By contrast, "Bowser's Inside Story" had Bowser acting gruff or stupid, but not to that level. Additionally, he doesn't learn,until the end of the game, that Mario and Luigi have been helping him. Aside from "Chippy" he assumed he was on his own against Fawful. That's part of the reason why Bowser's fight in that game makes more sense: He doesn't know that Mario and Luigi are helping him and his only priorities are to get back his castle (first half) and taking Peach (second half). Even when facing his dark copy, he's not saving the Mushroom Kingdom out of the goodness of his heart. He's saving it because he feels it's his. He also had several great moments like the time he almostΒ stopped a train and pretty much all of the Giant Battles. It's not just what role Bowser's in, but how he's presented. That's why Mario Party usually gets away with making Bowser goofier. And Intelligent Systems did not present him well in that game.
Still, graphical improvements can go a long way towards making a game feel different. One of the main criticisms leveled at the "New" series was not so much level design, aside from the first one for being to easy, but the fact that they barely changed much. New Super Mario Bros 2, in particular caught flak for this since it looked pretty similar to Wii and even now, they still recycle quite a bit of music in the "New "series (3D World at least redid or in some cases remixed music such as the Castle theme). For games like Mario and Kirby, graphical asset differences are important since there isn't much more room to improve. Mario swaps out the mobility powerup, Kirby changes gimmicks, etc. It's part of the reason why people feel the Mario series has become so stale and partially why people initially wrote off "Mario and Luigi Paper Jam".
I didn't really think of "3D World" when I saw World 1. World 1 looked like a cliffside with a red road (hence the name "Ruddy Road"). The reason I assumed it would be downplayed was moreso me being hopeful that IS wouldn't be lazy/stupid enough to reuse the exact same level appearance for the themes that appeared in Sticker Star (there wasn't a full beach or mountain world and the volcano world became part of the jungle theme, just as it might be part of the mountain theme in Color Splash).
The first game was originally meant as a throwback and I assume Wii was to continue that and to reestablish the Koopalings. 2 apparently was going to be called "New Super Mario Bros Gold" but got bumped to sequel status when they noticed that some of the levels could stand alone. For all we know, the series could simply be a cash cow, but Miyamoto has hinted that they may be going in a different direction now. Doesn't change the fact that there's one for every current nintendo console (and the two prequels can be played on the current one). They didn't even need new engines for either "2" or"U".Β
π: 0 β©: 1
"That's why Mario Party usually gets away with making Bowser goofier. And Intelligent Systems did not present him well in that game."
Did you mean Paper Mario? Tee hee.
But yeah, I get what you're saying. I think you have me stumped on a lot of these points by now. You've got them fairly nailed. If anything, I just wish the NSMB series ended at NSMBWii. I also find it hard to call the people behind the Sticker Star series Intelligent Systems since the division itself is completely different from that that worked on the original Paper Marios. Nevertheless, all I can do is wait and see what AlphaDream does next. And hope by some miracle they bring in those other characters.
π: 0 β©: 1
Well you brought up a lot of reasonable concerns and points as well. As far as the New series goes, I don't mind the new games, but its a shame that the 3D games and Mario Kart are allowed to diversify their world motifs. There is a NSMBW mod called "Newer Super Mario Bros Wii" which does use some motifs (asian, cavern, space) which 2D Marios don't usually do.
That point about Intelligent Systems is also correct. I had forgotten about that.
AlphaDream's track record is still pretty solid gameplay wise and characterization-wise so I have faith in them on those ends. And who knows? Maybe someday Daisy or the Wario bros will show up and be the high points of the game.
π: 0 β©: 0
I was just wondering which of the two games recycles content the right way? Paper Mario: Color Splash or Sonic Generations?
π: 0 β©: 1
Those games cannot be compared on any matter.
π: 0 β©: 1
Well I have heard encyclopedia dramatica complain that Sonic Generations is just a bunch of stages from past Sonic Games recycled, did Generations recycle as much as New Super Mario Bros. games?
π: 0 β©: 1
And Sonic Generations was more well recieved?
π: 0 β©: 1
I don't know. NSMB games have always been received positively by critics.
π: 0 β©: 1
Yeah but insane fans criticize the games for recycling content, dispite their being no rule that you can't recycle content from your own games.
π: 0 β©: 1
Sorry for interrupting but to explain, it tends to depend on the game.
Sonic Generations was an anniversary title. Generally speaking, Sonic doesn't really recycle.
New Super Mario Bros appears to have set a "standardized" appearance for the Mushroom Kingdom. Thus, if an environment looks similar to something from NSMB, it's considered rehashing. In this game's case, the paper aesthetic apparently does not help.
For, let's say Kirby, it does reuse some elements such as characters (look at the GBA-era Kirby games and the Wii onwards Kirby games) but are well designed enough and change enough environment-wise that they usually get away with it, (although the "Rayman limbs" design has come under fire lately).
π: 0 β©: 1
Still, do you still think Mario has the potential to have a new animated series that's better than Adventure Time?
π: 0 β©: 1
Depends on what they aim for and what you mean by "better than Adventure Time".
While many people like to throw around the "Mario characters are all actors" thing, what Miyamoto actually meant is that the Mario cast is so modular that they can be thrown into pretty much any situation and still work. Just as how an Leslie Nielsen was in serious dramas early and comedies like "Airplane!" later, just as how characters like Popeye, Mickey Mouse, The Three Stoodges would change jobs or living arrangements between episodes, the Mario cast can go Kart racing, throw parties and still serve their usual roles at the end of the day.
Adventure Time is a cartoon that started out silly but eventually grew its own lore, its own themes and can get pretty dark. It has character development and is following a clear narrative.
The Mario series has no narrative. It wasn't designed for that purpose. The RPGs are the only area that has some level of consistency, but when taken with the series as a whole, doesn't quite fit (Paper Mario characters such as Kammy only exist in those games while characters such as Donkey Kong, Daisy, Wario and (until recently) Bowser Jr. seemingly do not. Why are the majority of the monsters implied to work for Bowser in most games, but the RPGs suggest otherwise? In fact, why is Bowser's kingdom either rarely explored or non-existant in the RPGs?). Additionally, Mario's tone rarely gets dark, which is why the plot of games like Super Paper Mario are very jarring in this series compared to Kirby (which looks bright and happy on the surface but has deep lore and, in the case of recent villains, tragic backstories). If the people behind were as passionate about the games as the current writers of Archie Sonic are, then it could be possible. Otherwise, I cannot say.Β
π: 0 β©: 1
I was thinking the show can be similar to the Kirby anime, which is said to take place in a universe separate from the games.
π: 0 β©: 1
Possibly though I think the Kirby anime is somewhat diverse because of its changes. It really depends on how they go about it.Β
π: 0 β©: 1
How about if none of the characters had any design changes.
π: 0 β©: 1
See, the major reason why Kirby of the Stars/Right Back At Ya is so diverse is that it doesn't really follow the games all that well. In the games, Kirby can talk and is implied to be intelligent (or at least functional), Dedede is more of a rival and ally than actually mean, Meta Knight has his own faction, and there isn't really a "main villain", the closest being Dark Matter who is merely the most recurring (and is nowadays hinted at rather than actually active).
In the anime, Kirby had the intelligence and mentality of a baby, Dedede was much more of a jerk with fewer redeeming moments, Meta Knight worked for Dedede (albeit with his own motives) and outside of Sword and Blade knight doesn't have his followers/Meta-Knights, and Nightmare is the only villain faction with Dark Matter's only appearance being a cameo in the pilot (which was only a nightmare Kirby had).
That sort of thing is actually common with video game to cartoon shows such as pretty much all of Sonic's shows (Sonic Boom was actually designed as a separate branch of the franchise and not a new direction), Pac-Man (with his second cartoon actually being part of a reboot) and the upcoming Mega Man show (the old cartoon also had this to a lesser extent but, comparing all these shows, probably stuck the closest to the source material. The pitch even used the original character designs from the game artwork). So odds are, even if the characters were the same, we would still run the risk of having something very different to the games. Β Β
π: 0 β©: 1
To be fair anime characters like Escargoon, and NME salesman made cameos in Kirby Mass Attack, though I was thinking in the Mario show, the Mushroom Kingdom area where Peach's castle is, is more like a metropolis like city, and the background characters have more variety than even in Paper Mario: the Thousand Year Door, and the show could have the humor of seasons 1-3 of Spongebob.
π: 0 β©: 1
In that case, it could probably work. The problem with OCs (not just for Kirby, but for the Mario series in general) is not OCs simply existing: it's how you use them. Same with normal characters. That's the reason why shows such as SATAM or Kirby Right Back At Ya have problems with characters: Some feel that the OCs eclipse the main characters and that certain characters aren't really portrayed properly (especially SATAM Dr. Robotnik who feels like a completely different character from the games' Dr. Eggman/Robotnik). This argument can even be applied to the Mario RPGs: There were fans who were lamenting the lack of OCs in Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam while others appreciated the usage of characters like Bowser Jr., The Koopalings and Toadette because they felt an RPG could give them depth and character development. In my opinion, OCs are okay as long as they don't take priority over characters that could be used (which the cartoons I mentioned earlier being examples of what notΒ to do)
Peach's Castle tends to shift location with the games so sometimes there may be a town outside it, other times just a plain. On the other hand, metropolis' such as "Mushroom City" and "Toad City" do exist so either way, that idea has merit.
Season 1-3 (or at least 2-3) can probably fit with a Mario & Luigi-esque tone so not a bad choice.Β
π: 0 β©: 1
So I was thinking the Elite Trio from the Mario and Luigi series could be like the Mario version of Eggman's henchman, Orbot and Cubot, in the animated series don't you think?
π: 0 β©: 1
Maybe, although stuff from the RPGs rarely makes it to the mainstream. I guess worst-case Scenario, they could use Boom-Boom and Pom-Pom.
π: 0 β©: 1
You think it's due to that copyright issues, are those characters still owned by Nintendo?
π: 0 β©: 1
It's not copyright issues, but rather the Mario RPGs usually being divorced from the games and don't really influnce them that much. Also, Boom Boom and Pom Pom look more distinct compared to the trio and could really use some character development (which they probably won't get anytime soon in the games).
π: 0 β©: 1
Well RPG elements can still appear in Smash Bros. even in Wii U and 3DS so I don't see they can't be used in the show.
π: 0 β©: 1
I'm moreso saying they're unlikely if they were allowed for use. As I said, the RPGs are rather divorced from the games and Β Smash Bros is pretty much one of the only sources to draw from them. Even then, "Mario & Luigi" is limited to only a couple songs while I highly doubt that anyone wants anything from the Paper Mario series right now (considering what they'd probably get). Additionally, outside of location and related worldbuilding, there just aren't that many things that a Mario cartoon would probably use. If it's a sitcom/slice of life style then the established characters are fine so RPG elements or characters would make minor appearances at best. Β If it's serial, then what guarantee is there that the show will run long enough for those games' storylines to be adapted (not to mention if the tone of those games clashes too much, although that didn't stop Super Mario-Kun).
In your example, you brought up the elite trio as Bowser's equivalent to Cubot and Orbot. However, Bowser has four sidekicks already (Bowser Jr., Kamek, Boom Boom and Pom Pom, five if you count Bowser's Cohort/Baby Bowser/Koopa Kid from Mario Party) who could fit into the role with Boom Boom and Pom Pom fitting the closest in terms of possible dynamic.
Redundancy is what I'm basically saying here.
π: 0 β©: 1
So since Smash bros. Wii U and 3DS can use elements from past Paper Mario games, think the Mario show can too?
π: 0 β©: 1
It would probably depend on two possibilities: whether or not Nintendo puts some sort of mandate on them and whether or not they care.
Companies nowadays are paying closer attention to adaptations of their works in order to avoid them spiraling out of control. Β Sega is probably guiltiest, or at least suffered the most: the Archie Comics had a big problem where the Sonic comics drifted far from the games (for example: You know Dr. Eggman/Robotnik? They killed off his character and didn't bring him back until twenty five issues later, almost two years. And it technically wasn't him. It's complicated). The head writer at the time didn't even play the games and left because his editor forced him to use more game-centric elements. Then he later sued the company for control of his characters (including Robotnik. Again, long story) and led to the comic being rebooted to a universe more faithful to the games.
So yeah, companies want to be careful.
I doubt Nintendo really cares enough to embargo the RPG characters, but Sega has been embargoing certain characters for reasons, leaving the current writers to write around them. So that leaves the second problem.
The "Paper Mario" and "Mario & Luigi" characters are not easily recognizable compared to others. You have the main characters (Mario, Luigi, Peach, Toad, Bowser), you have the lesser but still recognizable characters (Rosalina, Bowser Jr. The Koopalings, Wario) then you have the "recognizable by Mario series fans" (Daisy, Waluigi,Toadsworth) then you have the characters from the RPGs and other games such as "Super Princess Peach" and "Yoshi's Safari" where only people who've played those games will know those characters even exist. It would depend on how much the writers know about the series and how dedicated they are. The current Archie Sonic/Mega Man writers are shown to have great understanding of the source material. The Mega Man comics went as far as to adapt the storyline of an obscure Mega Man game that isn't even canon (Super Adventure Rockman) and tie it into another obscure Mega Man game (Mega Man V (Game Boy)). The Sonic comic uses characters from the old TV shows as well as from a few lesser known games like the "Sonic Advance" series (although Sega's copyright issues means seeing characters from Sonic X and the OVA is slim to none). Sonic Boom, on the other hand, only uses Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Amy and Dr. Eggman. Metal Sonic and Shadow have only made one appearance each so far and Shadow's episode seems to suggest that they probably only did it because fans wanted him.
tl:dr: It would depend on whether or not the writers know that much about the series, which is unlikely since the games they come from are more obscure. Even if they get trophies in Smash, there are hundreds of trophies and not that many Nintendo franchises that have as many spinoffs as Mario.
If the writers are that dedicated and Nintendo doesn't stop them, then the show could get away with it. Otherwise, I think it'll simply stick with the more familiar characters or create new ones entirely.Β
π: 0 β©: 1
| Next =>