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ScarecrowsMainFan — Tyranids vs. Covenant
Published: 2014-02-19 02:55:08 +0000 UTC; Views: 5439; Favourites: 35; Downloads: 3
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Tyranids: The mentality of the Tyranid approach to warfare can be described with the phrase "quantity has a quality all its own". Like a foul cancer, these creatures travel the stars eating away at worlds and destroying planets; seeking only there own propagation and evolutionary advancement. Constantly changing, adapting, and growing, the Tyranids have defied those that would hope to halt their advancement to consume all life.Covenant: A mighty empire made up of several races united in a shared belief, the Covenant run on a cast system: Prophets, Elites, Brutes, Drones, Grunts, Jackals, Hunters, Engineers, etc. Their faith was so strong, that those that were non-compliant with their beliefs would often face a genocidal war in retaliation. One of the most powerful military force in the known Milky Way galaxy, the Covenant sought to activate the Halo Array, believing it would allow them to transcend mortality.
Now the Star Locusts will face off against the servants of the Winding Way. Can all the biological horrors of the Tyranids overcome the varied races and powerful weapons of the Covenant? Will the Empire and it's casts be consumed like so many enemies before them? Only time will tell, as we try to find out...
WHO! IS! DEADLIEST!
*(Because I know this will pop up if I say nothing: No space battles. Planet-side only.)
(Disclaimer: Just to be clear, these two combatants were created / are owned by people far more creative / wealthier then me. I have made this, not for profit, but in the hopes of encouraging spirited discussion among fans. Please support the combatants official series. Thank you, that is all).
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Comments: 185
most of the tech that humans in wh40k use was developed in the 30th millennium, halo tech is developed in 2nd so we have to remember the technological distance when talking about these battles with WH40k. Comparing tech like this is like comparing the bow to a nuke, the humans in WH made planets and reshaped them to their wants and are a galactic spanning force (kinda like forerunners). The technological disparity between us now and the humans from halo is nothing compared to this tech difference. The humans of halo are comparable on the ground to the covenant, now advance them ahead 28,000 years and what would happen? Thats the playing field in WH40k, it is that far ahead and that is what the tyranids have to face and consume.
This entire debate has been based largely around your unfamiliarity with WH40k the scale of it, the tech, the weapons, everything, is so much ridiculously more advanced than what halo is. The precursors, the forerunners, these guys would look at Wh40k and say “how did you do that?” as they manipulate time, space, singularities and all other laws of physics like it was child’s play.
Have you learned how the tyranids move such distances? What their mode of transport is between systems and galaxies? They change how gravity works… THEY CHANGE GRAVITY. The covenant are so far behind what the tyranids eat for breakfast that it’s silly.
Eldar
Necrons
Daemons
look them up, read into what they can do.
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All of this has what, exactly, to do with the Covenant vs the Tyranids? Yes, the technology is different, but can you honestly say its more advanced? The human's of the Halo universe have shields made of energized particles that can withstand bullets going Mach 2, the Spartan's armor can withstand reentry, they have all but mastered faster than light travel (human's can go 2 light years in a day, Covenant can go 912 light years in a day), most if not every human weapon breaks the sound barrier, and these are just the humans! Covenant ships are faster, have stronger shields, faster weapons, hotter weapons, more deadly weapons, not to mention their technology is based off Forerunner tech, a race of being who created planets, could create intelligent life, used weapons that effected things at the molecular level, could control all technology, could speed up or retard the evolutionary progression of races (as was done to the humans), manipulate gravitational forces, create fully sentient AI, use Slipspace as a type of storage area. The Forerunners are about on par with the rest of the 40K and the Covenant's weapons are entirely based off them (some, like the needler, the Covenant don't even have a full understanding of).
The Covenant would slaughter the Tyranids.
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That the forerunners fit right in next to humans in WH40k is exactly the point I was trying to make, the forerunners are exactly the type of race that the tyranids consume on a regular basis. The covenant are not equivalent to the forerunners therefore something that eats forerunners would do what exactly to the covenant?
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The Flood defeated the Forerunners, forced them to erase all sentient life in the galaxy. The Flood consumed and killed the Forerunners, essentially. The Covenant and the humans effectively beat the Flood.
The Flood, something that 'ate' the Forerunners, lost to the Covenant.
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The flood lost to master chief who never loses, I would quote what happened to high charity as the more common occurrence, anyway the tyranids are much deadlier than the flood.
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Master Chief... working with the Covenant. But that's all besides the point, the Forerunners were made extinct because of the Flood, the Covenant wasn't. And during the fight against the Flood, the Forerunner's even had better armor (MJOLNIR VI only ranks a 2 out of 12 on the Forerunner's Combat Skin scale).
Technology doesn't (always) matter, the Covenant would destroy the Tyranids (as would the Forerunners if they hadn't decided to through out all their weapons like they did before the Flood attacked).
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I would like to try and summarize what we went over and figure out what we accomplished with regards to the planet side battle without help from spacecraft.
Our main disagreement was definitely weapons where we pitted most common weapons Flesh-borers vs plasma pistol/rifle
Against main infantry we agreed that they were both reasonably quick killers
The disagreement came when it was plasma weapons vs elite troops and heavy support
we went over numbers and we agreed that tyranids held the advantage largely due to their respawning of troops.
we briefly talked about commanders where advantage was given to covenant due to the elites ability to replace fallen commanders in the midst of battle (we did not talk about tactics or “hero” commander like swarm lord or arbiter effects on the army)
a lot of disagreement happened with vehicles and a bit with titans
we agreed that the psychic powers were an asset that the covenant had no defence to. (other than “offence is the best defence”)
We debated the effectiveness of the tyranids adaption to covenant weapons, although we seemed to agree that is was an issue for the covenant (albeit temporary)
We debated the effectiveness of the tyranids underground assault and movements, but this kinda went with vehicles
We kinda went over stealth forces but not really.
We didn’t go over air forces at all.
Did I miss anything so far?
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That seems about right, at least from what I can remember about this debate.
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ok good
Another thing I wanted to know was if you’d ever played halo wars and whether or not you see that game as cannon
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I haven't played Halo Wars, those type of games aren't my cup of tea. I don't know whether its canon or not, the Halo wiki says it is.
All that said, as I have said at least once in this debate, I am going completely off the lore of each universe, not the games per se.
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I’m asking because it has a couple of different vehicles like locusts and vampires, which increases the covenant selection
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Well, yeah, vehicles and things of that nature would be involved in this. I remember reading about some other Covenant vehicles, maybe I'll have to give Wars a try.
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Sorry for the wait, I recently got a copy of the 6th edition tyranid codex and have been reading up on the new units and abilities ( and decrying those removed). Not much lore wise was changed mostly the addition of things, like exocrines and haruspex(es ?) which I will go into.
You should definitely get into halo wars, it introduces several units to both the covenant and UNSC… it has some flood and forerunner stuff too.
Anyway I would like us to maybe list the different "vehicles” / tank units of both teams and compare them (later on basic troops, elite troops, flyers, and then commanders and heroes. I think we should go over each categories weapons individually, but we could make that it’s own category if you like )
Ok tyranid “Vehicle/tank" list
Biovore ->long range artillery fires spore mines (anti-infantry)(in clusters) and mieotic spores (anti-air/infantry) (individually) fairly tough but most ant-vehicle weaponry will kill it in a couple shots, thus it stays at extreme range. spores have their own sentience and even if they initially miss they will begin floating towards targets if nearby, or will sit and wait for targets to draw near, meiotic spores are much larger and float in the air waiting for aircraft then burst towards them exploding with great force. Mieotic spores are filled with spore mines many of which explode in a chain reaction with the meiotic spore, but many other spore mines are ejected violently in all directions so as to hit other aircraft in formation. once again if the spore mine does not hit a target then it will slowly drift along, many becoming stationary in the air others falling on forces below. The spore mines themselves are easy to set off but there is usually a great number of them and when used in conjuncture with spore clouds (which is quite often) are all but invisible waiting for targets.
Carnifex-> mid to close range anti-tank and infantry, is very adaptable can take a variety of weapons (deathspitters, devourers with brainleech worms, a strangle thorn cannon or a heavy venom cannon) and biomorphs (acid blood, regeneration, adrenal glands, toxin sacs, spine banks, and bioplasma) many of which can be stacked ca. very tough, it requires several anti-tank weapons to take down, can take massive damage to head, spine, body and limbs before succumbing to wounds, good chance that those with regeneration will stand back up after appearing dead for a time.
Exocrine-> (new!) A long to mid-range artillery bioform that fires bio-plasma through a series of chimneys, very tough it takes several anti-tank weapons to bring down and when threatened at closer ranges it is not opposed to crushing foes under foot. The weapon on it’s back is actually smarter than the creature and will at times take over to move to better positions, the bio-plasma can be fired through a large chimney to launch a large projectile (? globule?) that creates a large explosion excellent for tank formations or groups of infantry or it can fire through several smaller chimneys to fire several projectiles at a tank all at once.
Tervigon-> tends to be mid to long range, likened to a living fort it is significantly harder to kill than the carnifex. Synapse creature with psychic abilities that range from buffing allies, destroying morale, psychic scream and psychic blast (yaay new codex 
Mawloc-> Close range anti-vehicle and anti-infantry, massive about as difficult to kill as the tervigon. Tunnels through the earth like swimming through water, when it hits the surface it explodes from the ground sending boulders, infantry, and vehicles flying. Typically it bites a vehicle in half or eats a squad of troops before diving back underground. Can take the same biomorphs as the tervigon.
Trygon-> Close to mid range anti-vehicle and anti-infantry, similar in size and toughness to a mawloc but differently proportioned. Trygons are the ones that leave tunnels that allied forces can move through, can take the same biomorphs as mawlocs (acid blood regeneration etc) . They also generate a lot of bioelectric energy when they tunnel that they can release upon prey, the discharge can strike several infantry at once. Also more agile with longer claws/blades allows trygons to cleave swaths of infantry and spear tanks/vehicles quickly before descending again.
Trygon prime-> basically the same as a trygon but much smarter, also has containment spines which drastically increases the range, power, and amount of bio-static contained, allowing it to hit, kill, and destroy much more with it’s bio-electric pulse.
Tyrannofex-> long to mid-range anti-tank and anti-infantry, probably the largest non-titan/ super-heavy the tyranids have used so far. Larger than the tervigon and possessing heavier armour makes it also the hardest to kill as it is pitted against super heavies and titans. It too can be adapted with biomorphs and can take thorax biomorphs same as the tervigon. It has three main options for weaponry a massive acid spray that melts armour and flesh at an astounding rate, a flesh borer hive that launches swarms of flesh borers, or last but not least the rupture cannon which launches two projectiles the first an exploding tick filled with an oil immediately followed by a seedpod with a nearly indestructible biopolymer shell, the oil coats the vehicle and the seedpod that penetrated the vehicle through it. The oil eats through the shell and interacts with the chemicals inside producing a massive explosion powerful enough to wrench even heavily armoured vehicles inside out. This is one of the most powerful weapons they have able to severely damage titans, also one of the largest ranges they possess around the same range of the biovores and it’s rapid fired.
Haruspex->(new!) Close range anti-infantry although still strong enough to rip apart vehicles, around the size of and slightly tougher than a carnifex. The Haruspex is one of the feeder type bioforms and possesses an interesting ability, it’s rapid consumption and digestion allows it to rapidly heal in combat even without the regeneration biomorph, this combined with it’s massive jaws and harpoon like tongue allows it t eat large numbers of soldiers and can start eating at medium range. Also haruspexes have acid blood that make using short range explosives or close combat weapons dangerous. Haruspex have been known to also posses other biomorphs like the tervigon.
sorry for all the reading I am trying to keep it brief, anyway if you could make a vehicle/tank list to compare this with then we can get started with this category. Unless you want to change up categories or something which is cool with me, either way I want you to have some more info on tyranids.
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Hey, no problem I mean it's not like I constantly check to see if you've replied or anything...
I'll try to pick it up next time I'm out looking for games.
Alright, so vehicles list. Since you already know most the stuff about the Covenant's tanks, I'll just put interesting tid bits.
Type-26 AGC (Wraith) - The Wraith's main weapon works by creating a large, compressed, magnetically encapsulated blob of superheated plasma and fired at a high velocity, once fired, the bolt is magnetically guided in a ballistic trajectory until it strikes the ground or target. When the bolt hits, the magnetic bubble collapses and the plasma rapidly expands from its compressed state creating a superheated explosion, that will vaporize everything within twenty meters of impact. Titanium battleplate, concrete, or flesh is instantly obliterated by the superheated white fire. The support turret's bolts are able to give forth degree burns even against light armored targets, which leaves only bone and charred flesh. Fluids are flash vaporized, which can cause extra damage to the body.
Type-52 AAA (Anti-Air Wraith) - Much like the original Wrath (slow and heavily armored). This variant sports two rapid fire, triple barreled Fuel Rod Cannons, as its main armament. These cannons fire special Class-3 Fuel Rods which have much greater range than the normal Class-2 rounds fired by other cannons and are capable of tracking an aircraft's heat signature. Dozens of shots can be put out in rapid succession, laying waste to enemy emplacements, leveling fortified bunkers in a matter of seconds, and removing an enemy aerial presence. The cannon can also be a threat to low flying Longsword fighter-bombers, even though they have heavier armor than the Pelican dropship. It should be noted that the plasma bolts fired by the AA-Wraith can explode mid-air, creating a cloud of deadly plasma.
Type-29 T/VT (Shadow) - The Shadow is a bulky, heavily armored vehicle and as such is able to take an immense amount of punishment, yet still move. The Shadow may endure multiple internal explosions that rock its entire chassis or lift it from the floor while under intense fire. For point defense, they are equipped with a heavy Plasma Cannon which appears to be of the same design as the Shade turret in Halo: Combat Evolved, but fires plasma bolts identical to those of the Shielded Plasma Cannon in Halo 2, but are faster. Unlike the Shielded Plasma Cannon, this mounted plasma version seems to need a period of time to 'cycle up' to maximum firing rate. This maximum fire rate is superior to that of both the portable Plasma Cannon and the Shielded Plasma Cannon turret.
Type-30 LE/AFP (Locust) - As a long-range tool known as the "building killer", the Locust is largely used to attack an enemy's defenses from a safe distance. This is a useful alternative to a direct confrontation, which would result in casualties for the attacker. A small group of Locusts can be used to assist a force of smaller warriors, like Kig-Yar, making it far easier for the group to destroy enemy buildings. Larger groups of Locusts can be used in a surprise attack against an enemy, and in such cases, the Locusts can often level the targeted base in under thirty seconds; however, the inherent vulnerability of the unit makes this a gamble. The Locust can be upgraded with the "Overdrive" attack as well as with the "Shield Amplifier" defensive ability. The former upgrade allows the Locust to divert energy from its shield generator to its main cannon, increasing its attack power; the latter upgrade makes the unit's shield regenerate faster
Type-52 ISV (Prowler) - The automatic Plasma Turret is capable of 360 degree movement, making it extremely dangerous, as it allows the vehicle to target enemies regardless of which way the Prowler is facing. Additionally, it also possesses much more firepower when fully crewed than the M12 Light Reconnaissance Vehicle or Chopper, and it has a much larger field of fire. In the realm of performance, its strength is its great speed. The design of the Prowler makes it capable of flipping vehicles with ease. It also accelerates noticeably quickly in reverse
Type-25 RAV (Chopper) - The autocannons can damage all but the most heavily armored vehicles with relative ease, its powerful impact sending targets reeling. It is similarly effective against enemy infantry, killing more fragile enemies, such as Yanme'e with a single shot. The blades on the wheel are strong enough to take down and cut through any vehicle with the boost except large ones like the Wraith, Scorpion tank, and Elephant. Even if it does not destroy the vehicle, a boosted impact may inflict severe damage to the target. The anti-gravity technology makes the Chopper difficult to be flipped by anything, as the wheels turn instantly when they are on their sides, which keep the driver afloat with the thrusters in the rear.
Type-46 ISV (Spectre) - The Spectre, similar to its UNSC counterpart , has a much more stable firing platform thanks to its flat and heavy platform design and evenly-placed propulsion drive. Its Plasma Turret is very accurate and has a high rate of fire, delivering a reasonable amount of damage to its target; it is ideal for taking down Banshees, and can be used with success against infantry. The Spectre is capable of carrying two passengers in contrast to the Warthog's one passenger slot.
Type-48 LAGC (Revenant) - The Revenant makes an excellent anti-infantry vehicle, due to three factors; It can cause severe damage to an enemy, it causes splash damage, and it can blind infantry for up to three seconds, depending on the distance from the blast. This blindness will render any nearby infantry nearby ineffective, as they will be disorientated, and unable to accurately fire upon the Revenant.
Type-32 RAV (Ghost) - The fact that the Type-32 RAV can be deployed quickly and in greater numbers on the field than the Wraith makes them advantageous as the first attack crafts to be deployed on the field during an operation. Their flexible role allows the Type-32 RAV great tactical flexibility for Covenant ground force commanders as fast, hard-hitting vehicles that can destroy enemy infantry formations, serve as reconnaissance and scout crafts on human battlefields. The Class-2 Energy Weapon System against lightly armored infantry is extremely lethal, only requiring one direct hit in order to kill a target. Heavily armored infantry can only sustain a few direct hits before serious injuries are inflicted. The plasma cannons are also extremely effective at destroying vehicles as the heat of the plasma and kinetic force is able to melt through most light and medium class armor with ease. The Type-32s Boosted gravity propulsion drive allows the ghost to increase its top speed, allowing for periods of greater velocity. This allows Ghost pilots to enter and leave combat zones rapidly, kill enemies by running them down, and evade more durable foes.
Besides the few psychic attacks, I feel like the Covenant has the advantage. The Psychic attacks and the spore mines are the only really threat I can see here. All (or most) of the Tyranids 'vehicles' are dead within a few anti-tank shots, and the superheated nature of the Covenant's Plasma combined with the concussive force plus the support turret that most of the covenant weapons boast are at least as powerful as anti-tank weapons. Even if we were to say that something like a Carnifex could get hit several times from a Wrath's Plasma Mortar and still live, well, a direct hit from that and it's tendons are all but ash, it's blood is cooking in its veins, and all the skin under its carapace is gone. Even against the fast moving Ghost could take out something like a Tyrannofex within a few bolts (30-40 maybe).
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Aaaaaand I disagree, LET THE DEBATE BEGIN
plasma weapons of the Imperium that I am comparing covenant plasma to ->"Plasma Weapons work by using hydrogen fuel suspended in a cryogenic state, in either fuel flasks or backpack containers. As the fuel is fed into the miniature fusion core inside the weapon, the hydrogen energises into plasma which is held in the core of the weapon by powerful electromagnetic containment fields. When fired, the fields dilate open and the plasma is ejected via a linear magnetic accelerator as a bolt of superheated matter akin to a solar flare in appearance and temperature. This bolt will explode on impact and can generate the destructive heat of a small sun. For this reason, Plasma Weapons are sometimes called “Sun Guns” by the common Imperial population.” Is this acceptable?
(I think the plasma from the verses are comparible and can be used to reference the weapon effectiveness of each team)
Typically a carnifex (the most common monstrous creature) can take multiple tank shells in stride while walking (charging) up and tearing the aforementioned tank apart, or tank mounted plasma cannons before again ripping it apart. The Carnifex could take a couple direct hits from the plasma mortar before even slowing down, and that’s without regen, with regeneration a single tank can’t kill it fast enough (yes without regen I would say that the wraith could kill the carnifex before melee, but carnifexes have their own guns too). Carnifexes are one of the smaller bioforms, something like the Tyrannofex requires a plasma weapon of a minimum of wraith mortar size to inflict any noticeable damage (not exaggerating it takes titans multiple shots to kill tyrannofexes). tyrannofexes make carnifexes look like little bitches when talking defence, in the case of raw physical strength the carnifex is ridiculous tearing tanks to shreds easier than any of the other monstrous creatures.
Anyway you’ve disregarded what the tyranids can do especially the tunnelling bioforms, even being aware of them approaching doesn’t help when you only have the chance for one shot after they erupt from the ground, especially since one plasma mortar at point blank won’t kill any of them (unless you’re incredibly lucky and it’s already hurt). Now I am not saying that the plasma mortar is ineffective I’m saying that it takes scarier weapons than the plasma mortar more than one shot at point blank to kill these monsters. The heavy hitting weapons of the covenant are great when keeping the enemy at distance, once the gap is closed the tyranids have the advantage and tunnelling is a great gap closer. (yes the wraith ramming ability is usually an effective answer, but charging these monsters only allows their tank penetrating claws to strike with greater force).
Also the bioplasma of the tyranids is just as powerful as everyone else’s regular plasma, never mind the the heavy venom cannon or the rupture cannon which specializes in destroying super heavies (only the warp blast/lance or biotitan weapons are stronger). These weapons are more than capable of taking out the heavy vehicles of the covenant at range (The warp lance and rupture cannon only requiring one direct hit). The lighter vehicles are easily dispatched via heavy weapons (no duh), but even anti-infantry weapons are effective against them as they leave the occupants exposed (a haruspex would be terrifying at this, snatching drivers as they go by).
That blinding ability is nice, but being psychically linked means the forces can used others to see their target and continue to fire (yes the accuracy would be diminished so still useful).
Oh yeah another new thing in the 6th edition is tail biomorphs it’s nothing amazing there are poison tails, anti-infantry scythe tails, extra arm prehensile tails, and anti-vehicle mace tail. It doesn’t really change much but it’s there, yay 6th edition.
The spore mines are really more of a threat to the light vehicles and infantry they’re basically giant grenades, I would bet that the wraiths and the locusts would be largely unaffected by them except for very lucky spore mines (the exocrine on the other hand (taste of your own medicine
The tyranids typical strategy is a constantly growing battle of attrition the monstrous creatures (typically) fill the role of the brute that can take whatever the enemy dishes out, ranging from anti-vehicle to titan weapons I apologize for not making this clear.
From what I’ve seen the two forces do similar damage but the tyranids can take more punishment, that and their (heavy) weapon variety.
(all this is before an adaption to plasma/intense heat weapons, afterwards the "vehicle" on vehicle combat will drastically change to a tyranid advantage, that is until the covenant retrofit all of their vehicles.)
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Comparing the plasma, erm, I'm somewhat trepidatious about that comparing the plasma of two different universes, the main reason being, we do not know the ionization of each universes plasma nor do we have composition of the Halo-verse plasma. Lightning and neon signs are both plasma, and both have incredibly different temperatures. All that aside, and for the sake of an easier debate, let's assume these two plasmas are comparable.
From the 40K Wiki 'Plasma Cannons can also fire in a maximal mode setting, where the weapon will exhaust even more fuel to provide an even larger blast of plasma on impact, creating a fireball that is capable of destroying heavily-armoured targets.' If we are saying the plasma is comparable, than the Plasma Mortar would be firing on maximum setting with no worry of overheating and no need to wait for a cooldown. All this leads me to believe that the Wraith would be able to take down the Carnifex in a few shots, if a single max-setting Plasma Cannon can destroy heavily-armored targers than two shots should be enough to kill a charging Carnifex. On top of all that, we are ignoring a seemingly integral spec of the Wraith, which is my fault, a tank in WH40K, the Hellhammer for example, is classified as a super-heavy tank and has 200MM of armor on its hull (again, from the wiki) the Wraith sports more than 3 times that (610MM), I don't know if a Carnifex would be able to tear into it.
The only time a digging tyranid would have the upper hand is if absolutely no Elites (maybe Brutes) were around. And sense Elites generally pilot Wraiths, it's not going to end well for the Tyranid. Assuming that Elite's reflexes are about even with the Spartan's, once the Tyranid pops up it will get rammed, which I believe the Wraith can do with relative safety since it is three times more protected than any tank I could find in Warhammer, pin the Mawloc/Trygon against the tunnel wall and unleash a volley of superheated Plasma equal in strength to a max (WH40K) Plasma Cannon. that would for sure kill that Tyranid. This isn't even taking into consideration the AA Wraith.
Since I made the armor of the Wraith clear, which I am sorry for not doing in the first place, it would take multiple shots from any anti-super-heavy tank weapon to destroy a single Wraith, let alone two or three. You judge the power of the Covenant too lightly. If the plasma is the same, than the Wraith is punching out shots equivalent to a maximum powered Plasma Cannon minus the cooldown time and the overheating at a much faster rate all the while being three times more armored than any tank (Just for shits and giggles I checked the titan's and the Wraith has more armor than both Warhound- and Reaver-Class Titans). The Warp Lance is a definite one-hit kill, but the rupture cannon... If the Wraith (or any other vehicle) managed to dodge that first 'cannonball' its safe, and say it did get hit, the Wraith is much more armored than even super-heavy tanks, do you think it would be able to destroy a Wraith? Heavy weapons would work against, say, the Ghost, but the ghost zips around at 34 mhp (56 mph with the boost), I don't know if they would be able to get a good shot. And, yes, they leave their operator open, but the Ghost has weapons that could easily cut through the arm of anything trying to grab it.
Say there are ten Tyranids circled around a Revenant, the blinding would effect all of them which would give the Revenant enough time to run down the Tyranids in front of it and shot them down (not killing but probably seriously wounding) a few Tyranids in the process. Then again, that might be an unlikely scenario.
Boo sixth edition.
Yeah, the spores would definitely be more detrimental to the light vehicles than the larger ones. With the possible exception of the Locust, once its shields go down its very frail (I watched a video where it two two-three wraith shots to destroy it after the shields went down).
I still stand on the Covenant's side for this. Their weapons are just as strong as anything the 40K has (at least Plasma wise) without overheating or needing cool down, which also means they can dish them out faster than the Imperium could while still doing maximum damage. Combined with the speed of Elites/Brutes and their tactical know-how. The Covenant would do fine at keeping the Tyranids at bay whilst firing into the crowd and when the Mawloc/Trygon pops up the Elites are fast enough to deal (and potentially kill) it.
Yeah, after the Tyranids evolve, these vehicles become more or less useless (besides the Wraith, which could still provide some kinetic damage) until they got refitted Than the advantage goes heavily into the Tyranids favor.
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Once again I must apologize for a long awaited response my internet was down and then I got really sick I’m almost better now and my internet is working so HUZZA, now to the counterargument!
The thickness of the Wraith armour is much greater but it’s effectiveness is considerably less than the imperium's armour, the Wraith is destroyed by 2-3 90mm tungsten shells fired from a scorpion battle tank (m512 smooth bore), meanwhile the land raider with its 95mm hull can take 120mm smoothbore battle cannon rounds (from the leman russ tank) with impunity. But a carnifex can still rip the shit out of a land raider, with the other monstrous creatures capable of tearing through it with some effort. The rupture cannon meanwhile pops a land raider like a balloon, just based on that I’d say that the tyranids won’t have an issue with the wraith armour.
I would also argue that the wraith’s mortar plasma does similar damage to the 90mm scorpion cannon on armoured targets, meaning it is not the equivalent to the overcharged plasma in WH40k which would evaporate a scorpion tank in a shot, it’s more like a regular plasma cannon ( maybe more accurately a Tau plasma cannon as they do not overheat). Which is still formidable but it would still take approximately 4-5 shots to kill a carnifex (2-3 if you hit it in the face every time something that space marines have trouble doing and they have reactions in the nanosecond). Meanwhile the heavy venom cannon is considered stronger than the 120mm battle cannon albeit only marginally but it is still significantly more powerful than 90mm which can kill a wraith in 2 shots.
Also the wraith is rather light at 47 tonnes, the tyranid bioforms flip over and tear apart leman russ tanks which are 60 tonnes making it unlikely to pin mawloc or trygon meaning they still hold advantage in close range.
Now let’s take a look at these ghosts and plasma rifles damaging the monstrous creatures,
In the halo wikia it states that the plasma rifle has an out-put up to 150 kv and the class 2 plasma cannon on the ghost emits up to 250kw
this translates to 150 kj and 900 kj
A lasgun in wh40k has a 19mj power cell and typically fires 40 shots, but can be altered to 10 “hot-shots” going from
457kj to 1.9 mj per shot, the significance of this is that the lasgun is one of the weakest weapons in WH40k with the hot shot version having better armour penetration, a squad of guardsmen could open up on a carnifex even using hot shots for several minutes and have nothing to show for it but some blackened carapace. Worst case for the carnifex fighting a ghost, it could simply ignore it. (wrong section but a tyranid warrior could withstand quite a bit of fire from a hot shot las gun before taking significant damage)
So infantry with weaponry weaker than the ghosts plasma cannon (or even twice as strong) aren’t gonna do jack to a monstrous creature, and are probably gonna have a rough time with any of the tyranid heavy infantry. Grenades are also going to do very little against them even down throats as these are creatures that bite vehicles often in fuel tanks to make them explode, without suffering undo harm. This restricts the infantry response to a monstrous creature to strictly anti-tank weapons ( you could use a plasma sword or gravity hammer but they wouldn’t be incredibly effective as you would be getting into melee range of a creature with more reach and will slice you in half in a single slice or it could bite you or it could spew bio-plasma over you or it could crush you with its tail. A brute would most definitely be too slow and I doubt a elite would last much longer as these creatures have little trouble catching space marines who as previously stated have nanosecond reaction speed, although it’s not impossible for an elite to do it I find it incredibly unlikely that it would). Now you say what about the hunter, well it would fare better but not much as the carnifex could one shot it with the heavy venom cannon, If they have difficulty with scorpion shells, heavy venom crystals are gonna be giving them a bad day. The fuel rod could bring it down… eventually meanwhile it would be avoiding the venom cannon and the bioplasma, it would take probably 3-4 hunters attacking at he same time to kill a carnifex before it killed all of them. ( thats a rough estimation maybe more depending on skill or regeneration)
(The only weapon that the covenant have on the ground that matches the most powerful plasma weapons is the scarabs main weapon… that’s because the most powerful ground based plasma weapons are on titans
The tyranid bioforms are tougher and are wielding stronger weapons than the covenant that gives them the advatange in my book (then you add regeneration and then what do you do?) and that’s before adapting to heat weapons.
(There are also a few underwater bioforms including other types that are adapted to water instead of land, what kind of underwater presence to the covenant have? I’ve only seen them have bases but I assume they have some submersibles but i can’t recall)
(also would you like to decide on a specific planet? maybe to give specific environmental tactics or situations, and it should be in a different verse like star wars or star trek so as both sides are in unfamiliar territory. I just read scarecrowsmainfan’s opening to his versus scenario so my thinking is kind of tilted in that direction.)
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That's fine. I think I'm finally coming down of my Godzilla rush, so its just in time!
The Battle Cannon fires APHE (armor piercing high explosive) rounds and are "capable of penetrating all but the heaviest armor with ease" (from the Lexicanum), the 90mm Tungsten shells on top of being able to penetrate the super-thick armor are also packed with much more explosives than the normal rounds (compared to today), that overall gives the tungsten much more penetrating power than the larger APHE. On top of that, the APHE round is much better for taking out light-medium vehicles/heavy infantry, neither of which the Land Raider can be categorized as. You're comparing a anti-heavy vehicle taking out a heavy vehicle to an anti medium vehicle taking out a heavy vehicle.
Hm? My good sir, we agreed, it was even you who posited, that the plasma from the Imperium was equivalent to the plasma used by the Covenant, I would thank you not to move the goalposts again. That small infraction aside, where did you get that the Space Marines react in nanoseconds? I looked and the closest I could find was that the Space Marines reacted at roughly the same speeds as a SPARTANs (<20 milliseconds), I was even in another argument were the Space Marine advocate agreed on that assumption, and Elites can react at the same speed as a SPARTAN whilst in the middle of combat with the MJOLNIR armor on, which puts their reaction time at <20 milliseconds as well. That 90mm is stronger than the 120mm, that aside, if you accept that Elites/Brutes reaction times are roughly equal to a SPARTAN/Space Marine, they would be able to dodge a Heavy Venom Cannon shot whilst firing max. powered plasma bolts at the Carnifex's face and firing from the plasma turret.
How do you figure the Trygon/Mawloc has the advantage? IT just pops up out of the holes and bam its rammed to the side and even as it's claws start digging into the Wraith's plating to flip it, it's claws/arms are decimated by the plasma explosion, I'd say the Wraith takes that battle nine times outta ten.
What you're doing with the Lasgun vs Plasma rifle is comparing apples to oranges, comparing a non-plasma weapon to a plasma weapon. The force these weapons put out is nothing special, its the super heated nature of it. Plasma of the covenant is thousands of degrees hot, as hot and as powerful as the max setting of any Plasma Gun in the 40K universe (we did agree on this, mind you), even on the minimum setting in the 40K universe, Plasma Guns can take down armored targets with ease. Imagine several Plasma Guns, firing 450 rounds a minute, putting out the maximum energy load per shot. Yeah, that Carnifex is toast within a minute (even if only two Elites are firing at it, thats 900 rounds a minute of superheated, armor melting plasma), not even considering things like Plasma Pistols, which can fire hotter bolts, or Concussion Rifles which pack a hard punch with their superheated plasma. Oh, a Plasma Grenade in the throat? OUCH! Plasma Grenades have a 'nothing survives' range of 3m, anything within that is instantly vaporized be it flesh, metal, or armor. If any Tyranid finds themselves with a Plasma Grenade locked into it's body, it and anything within a 3m radius of it, are vaporized to a gas and anything within 12m is suffering from the flesh being melted off their bones, hell even their bones would be charred. A Hunter vs a Carnifex (just a straight one on one fight for no reason) the Hunter would win. The 90mm shell is stronger than the 120mm, as I've said before, so the Heavy Venom Cannon would do about the same damage, if not less, that's true, but the Hunter's weapons would simultaneously burn the Carnifex, even a near miss would result in 3rd-4th degree burns and depending on how close the rod actually hit it could knock the Carnifex around (not a lot, just enough to make it harder to aim). The Hunter could use even near misses to its advantage.
(That just mean's the Tyranid's weapons are all sub-par compared to the Covenant
The Covenant weapons are too powerful, too much superheated plasma coupled with knock back that could fuck, I'd say, anything but the Bio-titans. Heat that melts through metal trumps carapace in any competition (regeneration would only be handy if the Covenant were leaving anything left to regenerate). From what I remember, and what I just looked up, I couldn't find any type of submersible vehicle, I would assume that have something but fuck if I can find it.
I'm not so good with other universes, so I am perfectly fine with you picking the battleground. I trust you to be fair, and if you aren't I'll have to go out and look for something (please don't make me lol).
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I got my nanosecond reaction time from a book I have called “know no fear” by Dan Abnett where a space marine assessed a situation came up with a response and was positioning himself in “less than a nanosecond”.
I was comparing the plasma mortar to the regular plasma cannon specifically and not to its “overcharged’ mode which lore wise has a much different effect (which the wraith does not match). The hand held versions are considerably different to the plasma mortar on the wraith which is why I was bringing up the lasgun energy as it is also a heat based weapon used by infantry and I thought it would be a better comparison, the transfer to joules was just a convenient medium to show the difference in energy which is significant. For example the vehicle disabling overcharge of the covenant plasma pistol is quite unlike plasma in 40k (not better or worse just dissimilar therefore open to additional scrutiny).
[(nerd rage ahead) When you say “compared to today’s” for your 2150’s halo verse I have to stop for a second and go but WH is like 39,000 years ahead of this making halo closer to the stone age than to WH which should say something about the tech and material difference, what you just said, this 90mm armour penetrating shell is more powerful than this 120mm armour penetrating shell developed over 20,000 years later, that’s akin to saying this stone tipped arrow is stronger than this 105mm L52 abram’s shell!!!! …. sorry I just had to get that out, where was I? oh yeah]
The battle cannon you must remember is made from materials unlike anything we use today and that goes for the explosives as well leading it to outperform plasma weaponry on the same scale as it. It’s lack of armour penetration against a land raider is not to say that it is not powerful, plasma weapons are even less effective against land raider armour… plasma weaponry that can evaporate titanium or melt bunkers just splashes off the land raider like hot water. Thickness and effectiveness of armour are two different things, when talking about weapon effectiveness in war hammer you always have to remember that it’s being compared to other stuff in war hammer, like a space marine in power armour could shrug off more damage than a modern day tank, or lasguns one of the weakest weapons has been known to cut through meters of stone and kill a target on the other side.
Now when we talk about tyranids you once again have to remember that this is WH 40k and these creatures are aliens whose flesh and blood react to heat/force differently than our own, you wouldn’t expect a poison that works on humans to necessarily kill elite, brutes or even grunts and you can't expect plasma to be incredibly effective against everything you face. I’m bringing this up because even if the plasma mortar was the equivalent of overcharged imperium plasma it still wouldn’t kill a carnifex in two shots (unless headshots then yeah of course) and then knock back? the carnifex takes direct tank fire in stride I don’t think it’s worried. Then when talking about tyranofexes it can take multiple titan level plasma shots… it takes multiple shots of solar flares to kill it. And when we speak of tyranid weapons you have to bring it on to this scale, a heavy venom cannon is more capable of damaging a land raider than the battle cannon which is more powerful than plasma. heavy venom cannon>battle cannon> plasma (except titan plasma weapons).
The fact that the plasma grenade leaves charred remains says that it’s not strong enough, plasma weapons in WH turn people into gas, and a vehicle exploding leaves charred remains and kills those around it and the monstrous creatures eats that for breakfast.
And even if you put space marine, elite, brute, spartan reaction speeds at the exact same the carnifex still hits them, the tyranids have bioforms that make space marines look like bumbling children for reaction speed which means that they can compensate other bioforms to operate at the same level. No biological system you throw at them will out perform the tyranids for any length of time, the tyranids fighting elder is direct proof that reaction speed and agility isn’t gonna cut it ( eldar laugh at space marine reaction times and tyranids can catch, shoot, and kill them just fine).
The best example of the tyranids fighting a high powered plasma using enemy would be when they fought the tau ( an empire of multiple races working for the greater good, very similar to covenant it troop type), you know what happened? The tau had to ditch the planet. ( the tau ended up teaming with Imperial forces to stop the tyranids in the next system)
The monstrous creatures carapace and genetically manipulated toughness lets them take hits that would wreck “super heavy” vehicles and keep ticking, the weapons that the covenant use are incredibly less than “too powerful” as it comes from sub-par to on-par imperial weapons.
And the armour may be thick but it’s comparably soft, making a charge towards the tunnelling creatures suicide as even after you shoot it once at point blank it still has three other limbs that flip over the tank. I don’t see how the trygon or mawloc doesn’t have the advantage in close range the wraith can only get one shot
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I wish they would put that stuff in the wiki page for Space Marines, would have save me a ton of time. That aside, I would argue that the SPARTANs are even faster than that when in battle and in armor, I mean, just after getting the augmentations their reaction speed is approximately 20 milliseconds, it is confirmed that their reaction speed is increased by the MJOLNIR armor and the effect adrenalin has on the normal body (you tend to react faster when pumped full of adrenalin) and the added effect that their reaction time would only increase as they trained with their augmentations. (to make this easier on me, I going to use the end of the human-Covenant war to establish the end of his 'growth' period) John-117 was born in 2511, the end of the H-C War was 2553 (official end of hostilities), that makes John 41 if my math is right, minus the fourteen years before he got the augmentation, and that leaves 27 years of him training and getting better, I'd say that alone puts his reaction time in the nanoseconds, plus the boost he gets from the MJOLNIR and the adrenalin boost when in battle and I'd say he's reaction time is drastically better than a Space Marine.
Whoo, that was a lot. Now, the Plasma Mortar to the Plasma Cannon is a very apt comparison. Saying that it isn't because its not aesthetically similar is almost laughable, almost, they are very similar (both in appearance and effect), the Wraith's mortar "fires huge bolts of superheated plasma which, when they hit, have a fairly large explosion radius" (copied straight from the Halo Nations wiki) and the Plasma Cannon is described firing "superheated matter akin to a solar flare in appearance and temperature. This bolt will explode on impact and can generate the destructive heat of a small sun." Fuck me if that doesn't sound like the same thing. Now, to back up my claim that it is equal to a max powered Plasma Cannon, here is an excerpt from the Lexicanum wiki "exhaust even more fuel to provide an even larger blast of plasma on impact, creating a fireball that is capable of destroying heavily-armoured targets" compare that to the Plasma Mortar which "can destroy just about anything on the battlefield in a minimal amount of shots", I suppose that's open to interpretation but to me that is saying the Wraith's plasma mortar is capable of destroying heavily-armored targets.
[Lol, when I said "compared to today's" I was talking about the 90mm shell compared to today's armor-piercing rounds.]
The thickness and effectiveness of armor is different, but what you're forgetting is the fact that the 90mm round is as strong as the Plasma Cannon on max, what it would take a Plasma Cannon on max to do, the 90mm shell is doing it in spades. Which is what I meant when I said it was stronger than the 120mm from 40K, where the 120mm is fit for medium vehicles, the 90mm is taking out heavy vehicles with ease, just off that which of those two rounds sounds superior?
Even if the flesh of a tyranid is different, even if it is as strong as stone or some shit like that, it would take a maximum of three shots to anywhere on the body to bring it down, the first shot would melt through the carapace and vaporize any juices underneath, the second melts whatever muscle is left making walking or fighting impossible, and the third kills it. Knock back is a very real possibility, the Wraith was able to push the Scorpion back, it wasn't making it flip but was pushing it back a few inches, the Scorpion has an average weight of 66 metric tons, the Carnifex weighs a puny 8-9 (on average), yeah its getting knocked back by the Plasma mortar with each shot. A Tyrannofex would take more shots, but it would still be only a matter of <10 before it goes down and even this Tyranid has to deal with the knock back of the Wraith weapon (I'd put its weight at 20 maybe 30 tons).
Comparing weapons you still have to prove that the battle cannon is superior to the M512 smoothbore, which I still do not see you doing. The M512 Smoothbore is made to take out heavy vehicles, the Battle Cannon isn't, M512 > Battle Cannon. Using that, it still takes three shots to destroy a Wraith, I'll give that that may be the amount of force a Heavy Venom Cannon can put out, but then comes the hardship of hitting the Wraith whilst getting tossed around and getting hit with either two automated plasma cannons or a plasma turret.
I think you misunderstood. Say a tyranid gets stuck with a plasma grenade, everything within 13 ft (4m) of that tyranid is gone, evaporated, from 14 to 42 feet away from the explosion that's where charred remains come in.
Are we forgetting motion sensors? If me and you have the same reaction speed, but I can tell where you are from 30 m away, I will win that fight 9/10. And that's assuming they react at the same speed as Space Marines which I doubt (as you could tell from the first paragraph).
Using the Tau vs Tyranid is, uh, nice? But this isn't a war, this is an isolated battle between these two races. I could compare the Covenant to any of the races they fought to extinction, would that make the Covenant sound any better than they are? Probably, but I'm not going to because its just a red herring. And, if this were a war-type scenario, the Covenant would glass the planet.
How, exactly, is using any Imperial plasma weapon at its max 'sub par'? How could using any given weapon to the extreme ever be only 'on par'? That's perplexing. Each and Every Covenant Plasma weapon burns through whatever 'super heavy' carapace the Tyranids have, they melt through fucking metal for crying out loud! Even if the Tyranids evolved to be able to swim in lava like its nothing but a luke-warm bath, a sustained shot from any plasma weapon is melting that carapace.
1 shot to the face of a Mawloc would disorient it, a boost would push the Wraith through the goo-like carapace of the Tyranid more. And since a single Wraith is rarely left unmanned, the Mawloc is also dealing with the turret (which you constantly seem to ignore) as well as any number of plasma grenade and other plasma weapons, maybe even a few of the kinetic weapons. Yeah, that thing is fucked to hell.
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How much faster does the mjolner make a spartan? does it say anywhere? And knowing some of the the testing they did I would say adrenaline was already a factor in that reaction test. Having time to adjust to the mjolner doesn’t prove anything towards a spartan increasing his reaction time into the nano seconds, with the mjolner and adrenaline it might improve his reaction time to <5milliseconds or <5picoseconds theres nothing to say otherwise. Without some more info it’s basically “the spartan is faster because I said so”, I’m not saying your wrong I’m just saying that going from <20 milliseconds to <1nanosecond is a big leap with just mjolner "improves it" and training. ( I will go and rent the book fall of reach from the library as soon as I can, cuz I’m pretty sure it has their reaction times amongst other stats)
It doesn’t matter if your faster than space marines, eldar are faster than space marines and they still get shot down from they supersonic jet bikes and whatnot, as I said before speed and agility is something that tyranids can compensate for.
I’m not arguing what the plasma looks like but what it’s described as doing a wraith plasma mortar takes multiple shots to destroy a scorpion battle tank it wouldn’t if it were the equivalent to the overcharged plasma. Titanium boils at 3560K (3287C) and the current military ceramic can withstand temperatures up to 1650C for 300 hours, even if we double or quadruple this to account for technological advancement in 150 years it does’t come close to what it needs to resist a solar flare which reaches into the tens of millions ˚C. A single shot from an overcharged plasma cannon would evaporate the scorpion tank and leave a glass crater. This is not what the wraith tank does in the field, it takes two to three shots to destroy the scorpion, this it what I mean about it not doing what you say it does.
ceramics.org/learn-about-ceram…
hesperia.gsfc.nasa.gov/sftheor…
The 120mm battle cannon outperforms the plasma weaponry in destructive power, the 90mm m512 does not. Maybe the demolisher cannon on the vindicator is more of what you think compares to the m512 as it is designed to destroy super heavies, I have been avoiding it because I think it’s way too above it and I can’t find measurements for it.
As strong as stone would incredibly too weak to describe the carapace on tyranid bioforms, to example once again the bioplasma that a carnifex can spew it is of comparable strength to plasma used by other races meaning tens of millions of degrees celsius. It spews that from its mouth, that means its internal organs have a hard time being melted or burned by extreme heat. And as already described the carapace can withstand at least 2 direct hits from plasma before musculature is at risk.
The plasma grenade has done that to materials it has so far met, it has not met materials that resist ten million degrees celsius.
I did remember the motion sensor but it doesn’t help you if you have to wait for it to attack before you fire as it is approaching underground, the tunnelling bioform is equally aware of the tank giving neither side an advantage in awareness. The advantage comes from closing the distance to the tank without being fired upon, being primarily melee creatures.
I was referencing the tau out of the similarity between their scenarios, a primarily plasma wielding races that has brought a number of other races into it’s fold (including a smaller flying bug race) is forced to ally themselves with humanity in order to stop an adapting, planet eating biological enemy from outside the galaxy… it does sound kinda familiar doesn’t it?
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Ah, but to turn the tables, a single passage in a single book doesn't necessarily mean Space Marines react in nanoseconds, unless that spans books there is no reason to believe its little more than romanticizing their speed (which happens a shit ton in books). Now, fuck the SPARTANS and Space Marines and let's get back on track!
Now we do not know what type of titanium the UNSC is using, what I mean by that is yes, they are using a metal known as Titanium-A which is composed of Titanium-50, why do I say we don't know what type? Because Titanium-50 accounts for a whole 8% of titanium, not nearly enough to make a single fleet, let alone hundreds, so they must be using a titanium that is newer, that is also strengthened at the molecular level. Now we get to the stuff that proves their Titanium-A isn't our Titanium, their ship's hulls are made from Titanium-A, their ships are able to survive reentry with no damage to the hull, the heat of reentry can be upwards of 6000F (3315 C) assuming the ship maintains a velocity of 17K mph, the titanium can do this without any undo damage, meaning it can survive heats that today titanium can't. And since we have no clear cut answer to what heat this Titanium-A would melt at, you cannot say it couldn't survive a solar flare. Also, the Lexicanum does say the Plasma Cannon does put out temperatures akin to a solar flare but it doesn't mention which star its basing this off of (and in a universe where that could be one of any hundreds, that's terribly unclear).
"The 120mm battle cannon outperforms 40K plasma weaponry in destructive power, the 90mm m512 does not."
I fixed that for you. The 90mm does out preform its plasma counterpart (being the Plasma Mortar).
As for bioplasma, thats only in their mouths for a short while. That's comprable to assuming that because I can juggle a fire ball between my hands I can withstand an incendiary grenade. That's not even close to being at the center of a plasma grenade's explosion.
That's moving the goalposts... again.
The Mawloc wouldn't sense the Wraith, the Wraith literally put no weight on the ground, its pushed of the ground by the anti-gravity thrusters (don't know if that's the right word). The Mawloc wouldn't know about the wraith until it popped up and received a pipping hot mini-sun to the face, followed by another, and another, and maybe one more.
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" Despite its strength and resistance to heat, the Titanium-A plating is usually boiled away within seconds, and does not effectively dissipate the plasma."
halo.wikia.com/wiki/Titanium-A…
It evaporates at less than plasma heat, done.
The overcharged plasma that you were talking about it’s what space marines carry, it allows them to match the tank carried plasma weapons. I was wrong it doesn’t drastically increase the damage out put it increases the area of effect. So sorry, yes wraith tanks fire overcharged equivalent plasma.
Moving forward again the battle cannon outperforms the plasma that the wraith fires, does not a wraith destroy another wraith in 2-3 shots? If so then would not the battle cannon destroy it in less? And the heavy venom cannon is more powerful. The rupture cannon infinitely more so. These tyranid weapons keep up with space marines and the much faster eldar, dodging the shots is not an effective option.
I was saying that about the plasma grenade because there are plasma grenades in 40k as well but due to the materials in the armour/resistant alien flesh it is not nearly as effective. If keeping with the same plasma then the halo plasma grenade would in fact not vaporize a carnifex, it could wound it but is incredibly unlikely to kill it.
The comparison with the person is more like “I can swallow a welder, my skin is more resistant to damage than my organs, you then detonate that welder in my hands” sure at the point of impact the heat is similar and could char my hands but the heat dissipates quickly with the explosion the temp going below the level of resistance. The carnifex momentarily is exposed to the heat of a sun as it spews bioplasma, then again it is momentarily exposed by the plasma mortar. Carnifexes also take imperial plasma in stride as they approach the imperial lines, just the same as tank shells, the only difference is what the damage looks like. In WH40k plasma is not even close to the most powerful weaponry, the tyranids face many weapons more powerful than plasma on a regular basis and win more often than not (except necrons but nobody often wins against them so it’s not that diminishing).
Plasma is far from the most powerful weapons that the imperium wield that's what I meant by on-par. The sub-par was directed towards the infantry weapons as lasguns cut through people and kill the people behind them while the plasma weapons of the imperium turn a whole person/group of people (depending on the power setting) into gas (these are the most commonly issued pistols used by the imperium). The weapons of the covenant do not do this in the lore, thus their weaponry is sub-par to the average of the imperium.
The mawloc has no trouble detecting vehicles using anti-grav technology as exampled by the tau who also use anti-grav on their tanks. (They can detect heartbeat at like 20m or something so a tank is no problem)
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"It evaporates at less than plasma heat, done."
Effectively meaning that the plasma completely melts whatever it hits.
How did we get to agreeing that the Battle Cannon is still more powerful than the Wraith's Plasma mortar? The Plasma Mortar is the plasma equivalent to the M512, the M512 is designed to take out heavy vehicles while the Battle Cannon is designed to take out medium vehicles, that means the M512 (therefore the Plasma Mortar) is stronger than the Battle Cannon. If I got something wrong in that logic please tell me what I failed to notice. If it takes 2-3 shots from an anti-heavy weapon, it would take more from an anti-medium weapon, I'd be willing to say the Heavy Venom Cannon would do the same amount of damage as a anti-heavy (2-3 shots). I still don't know about the rupture cannon though, sure its powerful enough to rip through 95 mm of armor, that doesn't mean it would be able to rip through 610mm of armor? I don't see it doing that, especially against armor that's as tough (if not stronger than) Land Raider armor.
No. It would vaporize the Carnifex. Going off 'its never faced something like this before', you don't know if bio plasma would even touch an Elite because the bioplasma has never come into contact with the exact same type of energy shielding that the Elites use. See how that argument is total BS? The Plasma Grenade would vaporize the Carnifex, and any other Tyranid within the kill zone.
Going back to the Grenade, its like having a small sun explode in your face (or throat) for a few seconds and than that same heat swelling around you. Even if the Carnifex's mouth is used to that heat for a second, anything more than that is going to burn it away, and if the grenade is in an enclosed space like the throat, that's a small sun exploding, heat expanding, yeah that Carnifex is dead. Its more like I shove a plasma welder down your throat and turn it on, even if you could survive a regular welder, its going to burn through you in seconds. As for the Mortar, its much more dangerous than the grenade, it has a kill zone of 20 m (65 f) where EVERYTHING is vaporized, and it creates white hot fire, the force of the impact alone would shake the Tyranid to the bone.
Saying that the weapons don't turn people to gas is stupid. The Plasma of the covenant is far more concentrated than in the 40K-verse, A shot from a Plasma rifle will shot through multiple people, the wiki even says it can cut through a light armored (think ODST) soldier and hit anything behind that soldier. That as powerful, if not more than, the Lasgun (ODST's battle dress is made up of a titanium-ceramic composite, much stronger than most other types of armor). This is the power of two bolts form the plasma pistol which can deal out 450 a minute, which means several hundred dead 'lesser' Tyranids. They are on, I'd even say above par, with the Imperium's weapons.
The Tau's tanks aren't as heavily armored as the Wraith, the only one I could find to list how many centimeters of armor it had was the Sky Ray with (at most) 120cm, the Wraith has a whole 490cms of extra armor. I'd be willing to say the Mawloc could still hear heart beats, but not until 10m and by that time the Elites already have the digging Tyranid in their cross heirs.
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Ok we’re having a disconnect here, I’m gonna try explaining it this way.
When I’m saying it hasn’t encountered it yet I’m meaning that all it’s kill ranges and vaporized ranges are based against the UNSC and covenant. They have not been introduced to armours that outclass what either of those forces possess.
The incredible jump in tech from now to 150 years til halo is huge, now do that tech jump 180x (the 27,000 years til when a lot of the imperium tech was first developed). Now we’re starting to get in the 40k verse.
The materials in WH40k are entirely different to that of halo, a plasma mortar/cannon would destroy a wraith in 2-3 hits, 600mm of armour and all. This same weapon does not even scratch (leaves a black mark) the 95mm armour (ceramite adamantium layers) on a land raider even after a dozen shots (even overcharged). This is the difference right here, plasma is a medium power in the 40k imperiums armoury battle cannons, lascannons, melta’s, and demolisher cannons to name a few are all more powerful than plasma weaponry according to the 40k tech and materials.
The armour on the scorpion is prehistoric, comparing adamantium to titanium is like comparing titanium to furs on cavemen. This is not an exaggeration on the time gap, that is literally the time span of technological improvement.
Here’s one example of tech that while incredibly rare was developed during that time by humans: vortex grenades, literally a singularity/black hole grenade, nothing that the covenant or UNSC possesses even comes close. And these other materials and weapons were developed around the same time with that level of technology.
Now I’m hoping that this clarifies things a bit.
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The Plasma Grenade has the same effect on Promethean Knights, Promethean Knights are neither Covenant nor UNSC and are light years ahead of both, everything about them is better than anything the UNSC/Covenant could/has put out and the Grenades do the exact same thing to them, that is evaporate any within the kill zone. The Forerunners would rape any of the races in 40K, and you know the plasma grenades we've been talking about? Yeah, those were made by the Forerunners, even the Covenant doesn't fully understand how they work. The Forerunners, basically gods, used the Plasma Grenades despite having other forms of grenades, they have grenades that literally tear beings apart at the atomic layer, and they still used the Plasma grenade. This grenade is killing a Carnifex.
Saying a 90mm/plasma mortar shot from the halo-verse destroys a Wraith but wouldn't leave a mark on a Land Raider is just wrong and here's why. What is the composition of the armor on the Wraith? Is it
A) Titanium?
B) Adamentium?
C) Ciramite?
D) Element Zero?
E) Some combination of two, three, or all four of the above?
We don't know what its made of, but, do we know what the shell being fired is made of? Again, nope. we can assume its mostly tungsten but what else about it do we know? What kind of explosives is the shell tipped with? How much? There are too many variables to say its definitely weaker than any weapon in 40K. Maybe the armor of the Wraith is several times stronger than Ciremite/Adamantium and the shell that's hitting it is just strong enough to punch through it. Could you find anything to disprove this? I doubt it. Can you prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Demolisher Cannon could out destroy the 90mm round? Technically no, because the armor on a wraith is several times stronger than any adamantium/Ciremite combination. How do I know this? The same way you know the 90MM round is weaker than the 120mm round.
I am hoping that showed why its stupid to argue over strength of armor, the Wraith has more armor there for it would take longer (or be straight out impossible) for a Tyranid to rip through it.
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I was trying to use the plasma as a basis! We know the effects of plasma weapons on all materials involved! We agreed on equivalent strength!
The plasma is less effective on a land raider in the lore. Based on the plasma’s effectiveness on the different materials I was coming to the conclusion that certain materials were better. Using the plasma as a starting point to look at weapon strengths and armour penetration we can get an rough idea of the relative effectiveness of the different weapons.
Plasma grenades in 40k don’t kill carnifexes, thats why I’m saying halo plasma grenades don’t kill carnifexes.
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The plasma being the basis still leaves us at the same problem! We've agreed that the plasma is of equivalent strength, true, but we haven't agreed, haven't even talked about, how that plasma reacts to certain materials. It could be the Plasma in Halo is specifically designed to take out any and everything whilst the plasma in 40K is Adamantium-phobic, meaning the majority of the damage never even touches the armor. This wouldn't say "Land Raider armor is better" instead it would come to the conclusion that "Halo Plasma is stronger/more effective". Those are two completely different conclusions that could be drawn from the same lack of evidence.
Plasma Grenades are weak in 40K and aren't even on the same level as Halo Plasma Grenades. A 40 Plasma Grenade only has a strength stat of 4, that is WAY weaker than the plasma grenade from Halo, so saying that a Carnifex could survive through their Plasma Grenades doesn't amount to much.
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terminator armour has a adamantium exoskeleton that plasma cannons have been shown to melt (not evaporate). A strength stat of 4 can kill a squad of humans or wound a terminator armoured space marine whose armour is comparable to tanks. plasma grenades in halo kill squads of infantry and damage tanks with the potential to destroy them.
If we’re gonna reference 40k (board game) stats then I should probably mention that a plasma cannon is strength 7 (titan plasma cannons are strength 10 and are capable of turning land raiders to slag).
does this help?
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A board games just provide the base, its more to go off of than saying "the plasma cannon can do such and such". Shelving the idea that 40K Plasma is Adamantium-phobic, being capable of destroying a tank such more more power than being able to wound a tank-like Space Marine, I hope I'm not alone in that observation, and the fact that the 40K Plasma grenade can kill a squad OR Wound the Space Marine whilst the Halo Grenade can kill a squad and destroy a tank should go to show that Halo Plasma Grenade > 40K Plasma Grenades.
An S7 weapon can "will kill anything, but are at their best when used against targets with low strength" (that was taken from Here ), a Carnifex has a toughness of 6, so even if the "S7 kills everything" isn't true, its taking very little shots to bring a Carnifex down not even factoring in the turret.
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I remembered about the plasma grenade launcher that destroys tanks in three hits, so yeah it’s more like the plasma mortar.( strength 7)
A carnifex also has 4 wounds which means the S7 has to hit and wound it at least 4 times while it destroys a wraith in 2-3 . The turret on the wraith has strength comparable to a lasgun (less than hotshot) as previously discussed and a lasgun is strength 3 which even with a huge rate/weight of fire of fire is very unlikely to wound a carnifex. Now the heavy venom cannon is strength 9 making it able to penetrate land raider and titan armour (just barely).
Plasma cannons cannot penetrate land raider armour, the heavy venom cannon can. The plasma cannon can penetrate wraith armour therefore the heavy venom cannon can penetrate the wraith armour with equal to or less shots. Even firing the heavy venom cannon (strength 9) at another carnifex it would take 4 direct hits that wound it to kill it (more if it has regeneration).
Now there is an insta-kill rule in the game but it requires double the toughness value in weapon strength this is typically unnecessary as few things have more than one wound. (even space marines have one wound and they find arms being blasted off and holes through they’re stomach merely frustrating). Only things like monstrous creatures or ork nobs have multiple wounds ( if you stitched an orks head back on it’s body after battle it would walk away no more worse for wear, even headshots don’t confirm kills for some orks see mag uruk thraka). Having multiple wounds means the ability to fight after taking phenomenal damage to the body (ork nobs have 2 wounds a carnifex has 4 wounds and a tervigon has 6). Say you hit an ork that’s toughness 4 with a battle cannon which is strength 8 it would insta-kill it, the strongest weapons in the game (including orbital bombardment) is strength 10. A strength 10 weapon is incredibly likely to destroy all but the most heavily armoured in one shot, even landraiders are fairly likely to be destroyed in one hit. Tyranid bioforms take orbital bombardment without being instakilled (most would die but the big ones are still standing).
The rupture cannon is strength 10 equivalent to titan sized plasma, the main difference being the area of effect the rupture cannon is hitting one target while the titan plasma hits squads of tanks like plasma grenades hit infantry.The rupture cannon is hitting at the same force as the scarab (even if we weren’t talking a board game the rupture cannon is titan weapon equivalent).
The other insta-kill weapon is force weapons which when psychically charged kill with a touch destroying the psychic essence or “soul” of the target (unrelated fun fact psychically killing deamons are the only way to permanently kill them, other wise they are merely banished((deamons are creatures from the warp/hyperspace))) .
I for one enjoy the board game, and I hope I’m giving you a better understanding of it rather than a mess of information
Almost forgot but a land raider has armour 14 all around, vehicles use armour instead of toughness, which must be penetrated similar to how other creatures must be “wounded”.
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The Turret is stronger than a Lasgun. The other guy that I was arguing with, VaruulOmegon (a Warhammer fan like yourself), suggested the Plasma Rifle would have an S5 AP4, the Plasma Turrets on the Wraith fire bolts similar to the Plasma Rifle at a much faster rate. Going of those stats, even if you want to say that the Turret only does .1 damage, meaning it would take 100 shots to equal a whole point of damage, the turret cranks out 600 rounds/min which means it could deal 6 damage in a minute, and that would be more than enough to kill a Carnifex all by itself within a minute.
The Heavy Venom Cannon might be able to land a hit, it is a small blast weapon, even if that target couldn't move at roughly the same speed as the Carnifex firing it. It also get a -1 because the Wraith isn't flipped over. While the Wraith is able to knock out consistent shots of the Wraith Mortar and the Plasma Turret.
After learning all this crap I want to start playing the board game, haha. Maybe one day I'll pick myself up some models and the rulebook.
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"That doesn't make them as big as a planet. People eat cows, are they as big as cows? And, as you have said, they suck it up, they don't open their mouth and take chunks out of the planet, which implies they are smaller than the planet."
Yes they are smaller than a full planet they are still ridiculously big. They are hundreds of kilometers long.
"When they arrive are they ready to go?"
Yes they are ready to go because the spore they land in sets them up before landing. Also they could come out of a trygon tunnel. Or a mawloc tunnel. BTW both those creatures are as scary or more so than a carnifex and pop out of the ground. They go after tanks especially ones bigger than them, they tend to wrap around and eat them.
Ima just agree with the orignal maker of this death battle and say it's a draw, just because there is so much info that is missing. Like how strong are Tyranids physically. They rip up metal well that's nice but the metal they are ripping up doesn't exist because it's future material and therefore useless for actual measurements. I can't find an actual time scale for how quickly anything, literally anything is in warhammer 40k. It's all just an Initiative number with some flashy description, "They are blurs of movement." Dafuq does that mean.
Anyway yea they both have enough advantages and disadvantages against each other that unless we can find actual facts about materials and energy output we can't make an accurate argument. I quit. It's a draw.
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"Yes they are smaller than a full planet they are still ridiculously big. They are hundreds of kilometers long."
I have not denied that. They are huge ships. It just so happened that the Covenant ship-to-ship weapons would be enough to kill them (or destroy them?) quick-ish despite their size.
"Yes they are ready to go because the spore they land in sets them up before landing. Also they could come out of a trygon tunnel. Or a mawloc tunnel. BTW both those creatures are as scary or more so than a carnifex and pop out of the ground. They go after tanks especially ones bigger than them, they tend to wrap around and eat them."
They'd still need to position themselves, or find where their target is before 'firing' the warp attack. As for the diggers, I still feel like they wouldn't be very useful as attackers, the Covenant's motion tracker would be able to spot them out well before they dug beneath the squad's feet and a ghost or a wraith would have the same motion sensor on it and be able to accelerate out of danger.
Yeah, while Halo is a little bit better at describing how fast people like the Spartans are able to move, when it comes to the Covenant and those kind of stats, they just fail to appear. Lol, first time I've ever been in an argument were the other person quit and it ended in a draw. Anyway, thank you and good day.
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Did I not just say that the swarm lord could kill multiple hunters with one psychic power? I’m pretty sure I did and yes I am aware that hunters are colonies but they create a neural net despite their separate bodies because of their limited individual sentience. Even if the swarm lord doesn’t happen to kill it all at once(which will probably happen) it destroys the hunters ability to operate as a singe entity.
I was making the scenario as even as possible limiting the tyranid resources to what is on the planet, same as the covenant the covenant have engineers and will probably drop with some form of base from which they could set up mining facilities/ ammunition manufacturers etc to replace their vehicles and ammunition. The tyranids are not getting reinforcements merely using the resources at hand.
If you go the reinforcement angle then the tyranids would get the same amount of reinforcements and they consume biomass again having a numbers advantage.
The most common weapons of the tyranids would have to be the fleshborers used by the termagants this weapon is incredibly affective against unshielded infantry (I am accommodating for light armour worn by grunts,jackals, elites brutes etc once the shield goes down they are vulnerable to this). When it strikes something it instantly begins to burrow inside if it hit the face or chest then it is rupturing necessary organs, if it hits arms or legs it bores through muscle and bone disabling the limb. If a grunt gets hit once by this it is dead 9/10 times same for jackals and drones. Brutes and Elites that lack shields could probably take 2 maybe 3 before dying even then one shot digging through your chest/stomach is quite debilitating. Yes the boring beetle is only alive for a few seconds that is because thats all they need. An bonus to the horrible death is it’s demoralizing effects on the force it’s being fired at, yes I would give the covenant higher resistance due to them fighting flood but it would still have a noticeable effect.
Now yes termagants are fairly frail they don’t care because hormagaunts rush to the melee taking most of the punishment. Hormagaunts are about as numerous as termagants (millions on millions) are not much tougher but are agile and fast footed making them difficult to target (shouldn’t matter cuz firing into a mass of them). These hormagaunts charge in the thousands taking met of the incoming fire along with the carnifexes.
The Heavy venom cannon is exactly strong enough to take out wraith tanks that’s what it does (especially tanks that can be punched into and destroyed by sniper rifles). Heavy venom cannons are attached to Carnifexes which are large tank eating bioforms that can take multiple tank shots. The are literally bred for antitank and are fairly common (about as common as wraiths if not more so) typically they fire at tanks as they close the gap to crush them with melee so trying to ram it is a bad idea. (surrounded by hormagaunts that eat infantry)
Zoanthrope warp field think force field except it’s indestructible. The scarab could fire at it and it would survive, yes there is a chance that the zoanthrope pops, but that is a fairly rare event that is self induced and not influenced by outside forces. Yes I just said it could take a scarab firing at it, probably several times before it got close enough to pop a hole in the scarab or destroy the mind’s of it’s occupants, and yes the field works in melee so you can’t step on it.
Where do you find your info for the indestructible vehicles?
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It would be able to focus enough on that one attack while getting hit with explosive, burning plasma? I doubt that, and that's the reason I didn't reply to it. Also, according to This Site the Swarmlord doesn't have Psychic powers beyond its swords.
If you are giving one side the advantage of gaining numbers while stripping that same advantage from the other side, I'll call bullshit on that right now. The Covenant could have a giant Supercarrier clearing the sky of any Tyranid air enforcements. That would put them on even ground and we'd limit the ship to only skyward defense.
Again, any of the Plasma weapons could (and would) burn through a Tyranid. A shot to the arm or leg will make that limb unusable, and if the shot was close to the shoulder then you'll also have the same burning damage on the chest and the throat, if a shot its a Tyranid in the face, that's it, the plasma would burn through the face, cook the brain, and kill the nid instantly. A single Plasma pistol can fire 540 shots a minute (the Brute variant has a slightly higher rate of fire), that's 540 shots of burning plasma that will kill a Termagant in one to two hits. Now, in come the hormagaunts, an Elite could take down a Hormagaunt before it even reached him (as could any Covenant solder with a plasma weapon), plus you have Jackals from behind shooting their Particle Beam rifle which completely cuts through anything it hits (even targets behind cover would get hit). Brutes using their Spikers, Maulers, and Brute Shots to blow away melee animals, or just diving right in with a Gravity Hammer which would crush any caught within 4.5m of where the hammer head lands is crushed or thrown back, and projectiles shot at the Brute wielding this weapon are deflected whilst he and his brothers lays waste to the Hormagaunts. With all this, the Carnifexes start slowly making their presence known, then a Wraith swings up and charges towards the towering Tyranid, now the Wraith has the advantage in speed and weapons (a cannon plus a turret beats a cannon and melee), with that the Wraith continually circles the anti-tank while constantly firing its turret and its Cannon, which would burn the flesh off the nid in a few shots. This 'battle' (Termgants Hormagaunt and Carnifexes vs an outpost shall we say) is over in a matter of hours (with no way for either side to get more numbers) with the Covenant winning.
Warp Field has to be activated (from Here ). Elites with their active camo would be able to get up close to a Zoanthrope, lob a few Plasma Grenades, reactivate their camo and get out of there. The Plasma grenades would burn their way into the Zoanthrope even as it put its shield up (or fired its Warp Lance which would kill the Elites, I don't know if it can do both at once) and when the Plasma Grenades blow up they tear the Zoanthrope apart. The death of the Zoanthrope than stuns the other Tyranids around it (Its called Death Shock, from Here ) and that would give the Elites (if they didn't get hit with the Warp Lance) enough time to get back to their base.
I thought I read it on the Halo wiki, but when I checked this morning I couldn't find it again. Sorry about that.
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i chose covenant because they can glass the planets to ashes, and the elite good at everything
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Especially being eaten.
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Tyranids, Warhammer is pretty much the Gladiator theater of everything completely terrifying and badass. All other Sci-fi franchises are like the rounds leading up to Warhammer.
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Good fight, in gonna have to lean nids though. They should be able to outnumber the covenant by a great deal after the first couple of weeks. Covenant aren't used to fighting something so horrifying that just attacks in a sea of bodies (flood never attack in those kind of numbers) and many of the lower ranked troops might have their morale shattered. Tyranids also make use of lots of emps, so there's a good counter for shields. I'm also certain enough shots from any tyranid gun will eventually eat through the shields.
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Assuming they both start off with the same starting numbers, lets say 1k v 1k. The lower troops would follow orders like they always do, didn't Halo make a point of showing that Master Chief broke lower troops morale but they kept fighting? Energy shields are electrical in nature, an EMP wouldn't do shit to Covenant shields.
Covenant weapons would rip through nids, that's the hard truth. LEt's take the most often used Plasma Rifle, it fires 360-540 rounds/minute, each round is liable to cause first, second, third, and even fourth degree burns and the high velocity bolt as while as the kentic force is enough to stun Spartan-II (Master Chief), 2 hits from a Plasma Rife will kill a none armored/little armored target, that's actual metal armor, bioarmor (I think) would do far worse but, let's say bioarmor is equal to regular armor. 1 Plasma rifle could kill 180 Genestealers/Termagant/Hormagaunt/Rippers. That's one gun, should I talk about the more powerful weapons like the Spiker, the Needler, or the Storm Rifle? Or the explosive weapons like the Brute Shot, the Plasma Launcher, or the Concussion Rifle?
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why would the tyranids play fair? in an actual battle it would be about a couple hundred thousand covenant vs billions, if not trillions of tyranids. and I dont care how much the covenant weapons would "rip through nids" their kill ratio isn't going to be 10,000-100,000:1 Tyranids will simply destroy them, pure and simple, they never stop and there are too many.
Also there bioarmor is at least as good as metal armor, if not slightly better, it is able to stop bolter rounds, and the occasional melta blast or plasma jet.
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But this isn't an actual battle. This is X number of one group vs X number of another. Why would it only be a couple hundred thousand covenant? Why not the whole Covenant army vs a couple hundred thousand Nids? Oh, yeah, because that wouldn't be an adequate way to judge which would actually win. Their kill ratio would be very high (I don't remember the exact numbers I used), their weapons would rip through the nids until the Nids evolved to the plasma, then the kinetic weapons would rip through them.
Doesn't really matter given that the Covenant's plasma tears through metal armor like nothing. So, yeah, Covenant would win.
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it would only be a couple hundred thousand because of how the nids fight, they cut the planet off, letting no more troops get in. And yes, in a super controlled and unrealistic fight then the covenant would win, but in a real battle, the nids win. and there kill ratio would be pretty high, but it always is when you fight the nids, but it wouldn't be enough. like I said, their kill ratio wouldn't be 10,000:1 Also, the weapons aren't that crazy advanced, you have to remember what they fight all the time in the 40k universe. bolters, plasma rifles, melta guns, and all the shit that the tau use are NOTHING to scoff at. Also, lets compare the plasma weapons from our prospective universes: in the 40k universe, plasma will hit you, blow a soccer ball hole in your chest, then explode, vaporizing you. and in halo, it leaves a hole through you, a lethal hole that can pretty easily go through armour, but still, much less devastating than the warhammer version.
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But then you're assume the Nid came to the Covenant, why couldn't the Covenant be run into a single hiveship? Or, why couldn't the Covenant bring the fight to some planet which has been controlled by Nids, so the majority of their forces began to move away? Its not super controled, the only real controlled aspect of the fight is the numbers, if all it takes for the Nids to lose is an even numbered team, then the Nids must suck some major balls. I didn't say the Nids would have a low kill ratio, it would just be much lower than the Covenants, which means the Nids would lose the engagement. Sure, but the Covenant weapons hit harder than the weapons of the 40K universe, at least the plasma ones (which are the only weapons that matter since the majority of the Covenant's armory is plasma-based.) Me and one of the people I've debated on this topic (in this thread, somewhere) have already compared the plasma of both universes and have come to the conclusion that they are about equal (both will blow a whole throw whatever they are hitting in a minimal amount of strikes and do splash damage). Plus the Covenant's plasma weapons would be like having the Imperium's plasma weapons on "Max" mode. The two plasmas are, at the very least, equal in most respects (the covenant's is better, given that they can fire much quicker.)
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You act like the tyranids have never faced ranged weaponry before. Warhammer guns are ridiculous, and for best example we have the tau. Their weapons are at least as powerful as covenant plasma rifles, at least. Most likely stronger. You are under the impression that every shot will become a kill. Unless the covenant soldiers are max efficient and can get kill shots every time they fire, they wont be killing 180 by themselves. also, how wont emp attacks hurt covenant shields because they are electrical in nature? An emp knocks out electronics. thats exactly what they do. the only way emp attacks wont work is if covie shields are magical or psychic. lets say they start off 1 million vs one million. A tide of horrifying tyranids rushing the covenant lines while firing their own weapons into the army. And their air units, and popping up from underground, and artillery, and spore clouds hurting covenant accuracy. Tyranids aren't just gaunts and rippers. Once the tyranids reach covenant lines, the grunts and jackals are screwed. Even gaunts could tear through grunts with ease, and only high ranked brutes and elites will have any chance at fighting off a close ranges attack
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Covenant Plasma Rifles are not the strongest weapon the Covenant had, just the one with the widest use that I could think of, Concussion Rifles might be the strongest handheld plasma based weapon, so being stronger than the average weapon really isn't anything to be too proud of. I didn't claim the Covenant could kill 180 with a single weapon, I said a single weapon had the potential to kill 180, sorry if that confused anyone. The Covenant use EMP weapons against the UNSC in one of the Halo games, the result stopped the vehicle but didn't disable the shields, the only time I can think of UNSC shields being disabled by an EMP is in Halo two when the player was attacked by Sentinels, all this said the Covenant's shields are above the UNSC's. 1m vs 1m, the Covenant hold their ground firing their weapons which burn through whatever bone-plating Tyranids step in their cross hairs, since there's a tide I doubt the Covenant will miss much, to both their left and right they have two type-52 Plasma Cannons, which shoot the same type of plasma as the Plasma Rifle except at a much faster pace and cannot overheat. Countering the air units, several banshee, as well as the Plasma Cannons, underground attacks can only be hurtful if the Covenant decide to turn off their motion sensors. Who needs accuracy when a tide of Tyranids is rushing the line? Plasma rifles, Plasma cannons, Plasma pistols, Storm rifle, Plasma repeater, Beam rifle, Particle beam rifle, and the Focus rifle can take out what the Warhammer wiki classifies as "Fast Attack" and "Troops" with little trouble and well within a clip or two, the same goes for the Spiker, Needler, and Needle Rifle. For the "Elites" (again, using Warhammer wiki's classification) the above weapons would still be effective however they would take much more beyond a two clips, but the Covenant still has weapons like the Concussion rifle, Brute shot, Fuel Rod gun, and Plasma Launchers, which all deal explosive damage on top of the superheated plasma (minus the Brute shot which doesn't use plasma). any plasma weapon would kill any Tyranid within at the very most five clips simply due to their superheated nature. Lol, a grunt armed with a Plasma Rifle or even a Plasma Pistol would kill a Gaunt, again, due to the nature of the ammo it would easily burn through the flesh of anything that attempted to run at the Grunt.
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Assuming equal starting numbers this probably won't be a easy fight but I initially leaning Nids
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Assuming equal starting numbers is stupid. The Tyranids main strength is outnumbering anything and everything thousands to one.
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