HOME | DD
Silly-Blue β Ellen and little Emily
Published: 2009-05-02 13:19:07 +0000 UTC; Views: 2686; Favourites: 48; Downloads: 9
Redirect to original
Description
This is some sort of response to this: [link] :3(Thanks goes out to ~K-Whittington for suggesting that I should draw an Emily-Ellen picture for a change *lol*)
Emily holds on to her mother's skirt! I think it's funny to compare the two pictures >w<
The look Emily's wearing seems to say: don't go away mommy! Slightly different than the shy expression chibi Kanda wears on the previous picture *lol*
Just a random observation: Ellen is about 20 in this picture and she does look different than she did on the one with chibi Kanda ;3
Related content
Comments: 304
I like to think that Ellen has a lot of discipline from being raised by Cross and having such an unconventional life that she would be very open minded and not feel pressured by what society dictates she do (ie. become a wife and mother). I woudl also like to think that Ellen was hesitant to fall in love, because she has a bad track record when it comes to living people. Mana was still using her and still got her cursed. Cross would have also warned her that she could kill the person she loves.
Why would Ellen experience more tension from being with Kanda? I can imagine that Kanda pretty much treats Ellen the same, but would she expect more?
If you can't say for certain who Ellen ends of marrying, why not create two alternate endings? I'd like to see this kind of story line, and how it could have gone so very differently for Ellen.
If Ellen wants to work things out with Kanda, it will be difficult to turn a relationship based on sex into something else.
I love that possessive streak in Link~ It was so adorable! I'd like to think after getting to know Ellen, Link would follow her all across Europe and Asia to find her.
π: 0 β©: 1
Well, I could imagine that Ellen is influenced by what has happened with Mana. So maybe she'll be reluctant to get close to anybody again. But I think she sees it mainly as her fault that Mana cursed her and even though Mana might have loved her, he did betray her somewhat... So she might be afraid to enter a real relationship with anybody. The relationship she has with Kanda does not include feelings of love or dependancy (unless one counts them desiring the other as dependancy), so a relationship like that might temporarily be fine with Ellen.
The tension Ellen could experience with Kanda is the danger of crossing the boundaries from merely physical to emotional (even though there probably are some feelings involved). And of course, the danger of pregnancy if they mess up (if they even use some sort of contraceptive...). Kanda would treat her pretty poorly, as always X3
Well, alternate endings would be an option.
And making the relationship with Kanda work would be connected to a lot of trouble, but maybe it would be worth it? Of course, her relationship with Link would also need some work to be satisfying...
Hehe, yes, I could imagine that. I want to see more of Link's possessiveness ;3
π: 0 β©: 1
Ellen, with a past like Allen, would have had a very difficult childhood. She was abandoned and rejected. She also had to start working at a very early age, so she didn't have a childhood. Even her time with Mana eventually left emotional scars. So I think it reasonable to think that Ellen would have a difficult time trusting others and entering a real relationship. She may see dependency with Kanda (or anyone) as a weakness.
I can understand if Ellen felt camaraderie with Kanda. They are exorcists, a tight knit group and they learn to trust each other on the battlefield.
I suppose their would be a lot of pressure on Ellen not to get preganant, but their were some contraceptives at the time. But I think they were very difficult to find. A western doctor would not give them out (well, maybe in secret or on the black market).
Yeah, Kanda would not treat Ellen very well... so when Ellen meets Link and Link treated her like a lady, Ellen might think it a little funny. She would never have been treated much like a respectable woman, especially not by Kanda.
Both relationships have a lot of problems and either way, it seems like Ellen woudl be compromising her own happiness and the possibility of love. Kanda is thick-headed and probably would never have considered a proper relationship with her. While Link would still only be loyal to the Order and only marry her to please his superiors.
Underneath Link's calm manner lies a possessive personality~ It is very interesting.
π: 0 β©: 1
Having a difficult time growing up, especially when it comes to trusting and get close to other people, might also leave Ellen with a need to compensate what she missed. I doubt she would trust Kanda to love her and be there for here, but still, she might search his company and very well know that it is not going all too deep.
I think that for her, depending on other doesn't necessarily be a personal weakness, but it surely hinders her goal, so she might not want to seek relationships which will leave her with a feeling of responsibility and / or dependancy towards that person... So, her relationship with Kanda probably isn't very healthy for Ellen... But I guess it works the other way around as well...
I agree, not to get pregnant was probably not that easy at her time, but being Cross pupil must have given her some insights on how she could deal with it, but whether she actually uses anything to prevent a pregnancy is questionable... (Especially as she secretly might wish to have a family...)
Well, I guess as an exorcist, and even more so as a female one, there aren't many ways to find a good and happy relationship anyway... Their choice of men probably is quite limited, and the time to be a couple as well... After all, killing Akuma and not dying out there is always a priority... Or it should be... X3
π: 0 β©: 1
I wonder if Ellen, with a harsh past who saw the unsavory side of life as a woman, would try and idealize that somewhere, there might be the possibility of a warm and loving family, or would she reject the concept all together? Though Ellen just might harbour a desire for a family.
Well, it is possible for Kanda and Ellen to have a sexual relationship and still remain friends. Ellen wouldn't choose to sleep with him if she didn't at least feel safe around him. But would their friends accept their "relationship"? Lavi and Linali aren't exactly models of Victorian sensibility, but they still might find it strange...
The Ellen with a hash past, who has seen women fall for Cross and be thrown aside, might be very wary of starting a family with a man who does not fully respect her and she doesn't wholly trust (like Kanda). So, I think Ellen and Kanda would both agree to use protection. There is the option of interrupting intercourse or using condoms.
She might plan to have a chld if she can either reform her relationship with Kanda or find a better, more suitable man. I am against the idea of women reforming men in order to make relationships work, though.
There would be a small selection of men, especially of boys near their own age. As well as the high mortality rate might discourage anyone from seeking a relationship.
I think Ellen's top priority would be to succeed as an exorcist and she would be too young to seriously think of what she has with Kanda as something more than a fling. I don't think she would want anything more.
π: 0 β©: 1
I doubt that Ellen, no matter how she grew up, would come to hate what it means to be a woman. Maybe sometimes and maybe some aspects of it. I guess she would still know the love and comfort she expierenced from the time she spent with Mana. It was the closest to a family she ever had (I assume) and even though it ended bad and now leaves her with doubts, Ellen is not the kind of person to start hating what she loved. Therefore I guess she would still like to have a family sometime, but circumstances make it too difficult. As an exorcist you simply do not have the leisure to build a family, and that's true for both men and women. Accordingly, Ellen might search for comfort in Kanda, but can't find it. But she finds the promise of family in Link, but he's lacking most of the warmth Mana gave her and the passion Kanda has.
I guess Linali and Rabi would accept it but try to change it. I can imagine Linali wanting Ellen and Kanda to have a perfect loving relationship, because that what they have is apprarently not that healthy... And Rabi... It's really hard to judge what Rabi really thinks...
I doubt Ellen would attempt to change Kanda, at least not openly. She might try to make him see how their relationship affects her, but he might be too stubborn to change anything about his desires and his way of dealing with Ellen. Allen is always ready to believe that there is something good in people and he will try his best to protect that (like when he saved Tyki) but I think he would not try to change how people are. But in Ivory Tales, where Ellen grew up differently, she might try to change people because she's naΓ―ve... And probably because she has confidence in the fact that what she does is right, therefore others might come to their senses as well...
I agree that Ellen considers being an exorcist (or at least her goal) as most important. But I can still imagine that a relationship with Kanda or any other person might have a big emotional impact on Ellen. She might be looking for some sort of comfort, now that Mana's gone and she was all on her own after Cross abandoned her. She just can't get that sort of comfort from Kanda, at least not without losing it again once they're done...
π: 0 β©: 1
If she equates being a woman with being taken care of, she might not totally reject it. But I doubt she would be completely happy with it and would dislike certain aspects of it (servitude to a husband).
But the point about Link is really good! He may not come off as caring as Mana or as passionate as Kanda, but he does promise something Kanda lacks; a future. I guess Ellen has to decide if she wants a family and has to give up on the idea of passion. Would Kanda understand that? or maybe Link will turn out to be passionate?
I think Linali would want all of her friends to be happy and in loving relationships. Her friends make up her world, so it would be natural that she wants to keep them together. Rabi might go along with Linali's scheme to keep Kanda and Ellen together, if only because it is amusing. I still don't trust the Bookmen and their motives...
I don't think trying to change people is a healthy aspect in a relationship... it seems better to just accept people as they are. Allen also doesn't seem willing to judge people, which I like. That may be a reason why he wasn't willing to let Tyki die.
I imagine that Ellen, with Allen's past, woudl be fiercely independent and would try not to find meaning in another man in her life.
π: 0 β©: 1
Well, maybe Link will even turn out to be passionate. But I have the feeling that his "mission" to keep a close eye on Ellen would still always linger in the background. But she does have better chances to build something which lasts with Link. Kanda would really change his priorities to make their relationship work. Having Link as a rival might show him that he would actually miss something if he doesn't manage to change what they had... I really like Link, so a story where he ended up with Ellen would be nice, but I feel so bad for Kanda! *lol*
I agree; Linali would want the best for all of her friends... And Rabi might just play along... As a bookman it shouldn't concern him, he just needs to watch and take note of it (but if he watches, he might as well watch something interesting, like the little drama of their relationship *lol*)
Of course, one should never try to change people, it doesn't work even if one has good intentions... I also had a feeling that Allen wasn't willing to judge Tyki and that he was thinking about how sad some people might be if he were dead... It's not his place to play God and decide to just leave him in the Ark(even though he would have had good reasons to...) But I also have a feeling that he did think he might be able to change Tyki by exorcising him... Of course, the exorcism would have forced Tyki to be human... It's somehow ambiguous...
It's really hard to tell how Ellen would be... The whole Mana episode made Allen change that much. He was independent (even though clearly in need of someone to love him) and then he was so desolate when Mana was gone. But now he is independent again, up to the point where he did care about humans in general but didn't want to be close to them... This did change slightly, but I still think he's independant (as long as he can keep his memory of Mana...)
I guess that Ellen in this situation would be as well. There's no need for a man to govern her and she doesn't live to please someone... Aah. Thinking like this it would seem rather out of character for her to seek comfort in a man, even though Allen did say that humans suddenly became to important. Maybe interacting with them more and being "forced" into a friendship (I don't really know how to put it, but Linali clearly tried to make him see that he is not alone) would also make Ellen recall how great it was with Mana and long for some kind of similarity again - which she then apparently can't find. Bah. It's really hard to tell! >w<
π: 0 β©: 1
Hm, Ellen would have to come to terms with the fact that Link's overall mission is not to be a loving husband (even if he become one), but more of a guard for her prison. But if she thinks Link might be her only option if she wants to start a family, she might accept it.
There is no other way for me to feel about Link ending up with Ellen. It would be cute, but I would always feel that doubt, that maybe Ellen would have worked it out with Kanda if they had tried.
Kanda would need to change his priorities. Ellen would have no intention of continuing their physical relationship with engaged/married to Link. It may force Kanda to realize he is losing his opportunity to have a future with Ellen. Hm, maybe he would get very jealous if he saw Ellen and Link on a "date". I'm certain Kanda would be frustrated that ELlen is changing their relationship (that is, stopping it) and frustrated because he will find out that Ellen already knows that her marriage is just a way for the Vatican to keep an eye on her and that Link is juts the Vatican's minion.
Well, if Allen believed that the only reason Tyki acted as a villain was because he had a Noah inside of him, it would be easy to place all of the blame on the Noah inside. In law, if someone is not in their right mind, they are not held responsible for their crimes, because the "guilty mind" and "guilty act" didn't coincide.
Who really knows what Allen is thinking... and how Ellen would think... she might have changed her mind about having important people. And if she thinks that being with a man is not about being dependent on him or subservient, but can be something between equals, she might not have many qualms against it. Surely, in her travels with Cross, she must have known women who were also using Cross and Cross was using them. Something to both parties satisfaction?
It would be strange if Ellen was just looking for Mana in men... but she might want to re-experience the comfort she once felt, and maybe replicate it in her own family.
π: 0 β©: 1
Yes, I feel the same. And deciding what exactly to do with those two prevents me from continuing to write *frowns* Well, not every story I write should be required to end with Kanda and Ellen happily in love, however, that's what feels best for me! ;3
The big question is whether Kanda would care enough for her to try to change what they had. Surely, he can't be satisfied with no longer having her. He could, of course just get another partner if that was all he cared for, but certainly it wasn't (there's chemistry between those two that is hard to deny *lol*). I think that Kanda would insist that Ellen was better off with him than with Link (who's just marryig her to be able to influence and keep an eye on her), surely Kanda has his pride as well; even only his passion must be better than that minion's vow to marry her! *lol*
Hm, I am sure that for Allen it's hard anyway, because he cannot understand why he must fight against humans, because that's not why he became an exorcist. It certainly must be easier for him to blame everything on Tyki being possessed. I still don't know if Allen's a fool or a remarkably forgiving person, because wanting to save someone who tortured him and almost killed him (twice) certainly is rather odd...
I doubt that Ellen would achieve an equal relationship with Link; in the manga Allen seems to consider Link a friend and doesn't really complain about being supervised... In the constellation where Ellen would be put under the care of Link it would only be mock equality I guess. Maybe she wouldn't achieve equality with Kanda either because he might consider her inferior because she's an idiot (in his opinion), but I guess the chances would be better because Kanda seems to acknowledge strong people (he even told Linali that she's a strong person, so I guess he does value strenght and determination...)
Yes, I agree, Ellen should be reasonable enough to only wish for that feeling of loving and being loved in return. It won't be the same as with Mana, that's sure, because with any man it should be a different kind of relationship.
π: 0 β©: 1
I have a soft spot for happy endings... but DGM isn't really the sort of manga to give a definitively happy ending for the characters.
It does depend on what Kanda wants. Does he just want to sleep with Ellen, or would be consider something more formal? Does he even want a family? Ellen certainly would not have talked about it, and Kanda might not even considered the possibility.
Link showing up and saying he wants to marry Ellen might disturb Kanda. It would be a blow to his pride that Ellen was even considering changing their relationship (by stopping it) and that she was choosing Link over himself. I think he would have to take a closer examination of the girl he was sleeping with: was she that unhappy with what they had (ie. passion) that she would gladly marry a minion to have a stable life. Or would be be offended that Ellen didn't consider him marriage material?
Allen is very odd... is he forgiving or does he feel that the Noah isn't something he can accurately judge? Allen has said that if he finds something to complex, he will just ignore it...
I do think Ellen would be considered with equality. Living a life more closely to the gender roles of a man: wearing male dress, taking the profession of a soldier, her liberal lifestyle, I think she would demand equality in a marriage.
The reason Kanda probably considered entering a physical relationship with Ellen was because he might think of her as a strong and determined woman (though he would never say that). As well, since Ellen would exist outside of the normal realm of society, Kanda might not think he has much responsibility towards Ellen because he slept with her. In Victorian society, that would be very dishonorable and might prevent a normal girl from marrying. But because Ellen isn't a part of that society, maybe Kanda doesn't feel like he has any obligations (even though after the war, Ellen still might have trouble marrying).
To Ellen, maybe she sees Mana as totally unique and doesn't expect to experience the love she felt from Mana so she feels she has to be satisfied with what she can get?
π: 0 β©: 1
I guess that Kanda doesn't really consider having a family or real relationship. He is just purusing his goal and "uses" Ellen to let off steam (but it has to be said in his defence that Ellen also uses him for the same purpose). Also, Kanda and Ellen are still pretty young (but not young enough to get into a sexual relationship) therefore I can't really imagine Kanda having the maturity to be a family father. For him there seem to be more important things.
I guess that Kanda would rather be offended that she would chose anybody over him, not that she doesn't consider marrying him. Here goes the maturity thing again, but I doubt that Kanda will realize by himself that he might be doing something wrong. He will certainly have to re-evaluate his and Ellen's relationship when he sees that Ellen really considers ending what they had. He might then try to figure out why, but I doubt Kanda is that good in putting himself into other people's shoes. But with Linali's help he might manage, or maybe Ellen is open enough to tell him what the problem is...
Hm, now that you mention it, Allen might really just not think about it, because it's above his capabilites. He doesn't entirely understand Noahs and their motivation, so he will just do what he thinks is right and not waste too much thought on it? On the other hand, he might not want to kill Noah, especially because he feels some kind of kinship? But I rather doubt it - the 14th killed them all after all... But there seems to be something going on between Tyki - the 14th - Mana - Allen, because Wisely says that Tyki's the spitting image of "that man". But I won't speculate on that too much yet, so I'll just go on thinking that Allen just does what feels best for him. For once because complex matter should best be ignored and also because Allen says that the misery in front of him means much more to him than the bigger picture. Not saving Tyki would have felt wrong to Allen, therefore he did, no matter the consequences...
Hn, yes you're right. Ellen might prefer equality than being pushed into the woman role by marriage. But it might sound promising to her when she's always under pressure in the Black Order. But in the long run she probably wouldn't be happy...
I wonder if Ellen would actually be able to enter into the normal society after the war has ended, she doesn't really fit in. Maybe she would just wander around, if she settled down with a husband, then probably one that wouldn't expect her to try to conform to a society she isn't used to - or maybe she would grow into it after a few years... Kanda probably doesn't think about what it could mean for Ellen to sleep with him without being married... Ellen probably doesn't think about it that much either...
π: 0 β©: 1
Kanda seems to live the life of a soldier. Having any solid ties is against his nature. Marriage is probably something that didn't even enter his head. Even after the war, he probably won't want to settle down. Well, men could push marriage until their late 20s.
It would be a matter of pride that Ellen would leave him for someone else. Especially someone Kanda really doesn't like!
By sleeping with Kanda before marriage, Ellen had deviated from society. I don't think it would really bother her, and if other people know, I don't think their insults would bother her. (I always imagine the Finders to be more religious, so maybe they would gossip about Ellen's scandalous behavior). Ellen would see seeking release and having sex with Kanda as not a big deal. It might drive Komui crazy that Linali was friends with her...). I don't think Ellen put a great deal of importance on conforming to society's expectations.
Maybe Ellen would dismiss thinking she had to explain herself and what she wants to Kanda. They are just sleeping together, not in a relationship. She doesn't really have an obligation or responsibility to him. Ellen might confide in Linali her reasons, and Linali might explain things to Kanda.
"That Man"!! I had wondered what that was supposed to mean. We only see a few brief glimpses of what the 14th looked like, so maybe they do look somewhat alike. And hadn't the Earl remarked that Tyki was his favourite (and I assumed that the Earl's previous favourite was the 14th)
Well, Allen never agreed to kill humans, and he believes that the Noah are humans. He only wanted to defeat the Earl and save the akuma. The Noah's don't fit easily into this view. So, Allen settled on the idea that the Noah are humans, so he won't kill them.
Would Ellen take a quick fix (marry Link and forever be watched over) or would she try something that would be constantly difficult? It really depends on what happens to her when the war ends. How many of her friends die and about the 14th. I think if she ends up very depressed, she might take the marriage proposal. Though I don't think Ellen would be happy with the marriage. There is too much in the way for Ellen and Link...
I am not sure if Ellen could enter normal society. She was never part of a normal society, so she has very little experience with it. I think she would probably wander about.
In Japan, I don't think that virginity wasn't a necessity upon marriage. So maybe Kanda doesn't really believe in that obligation to marry a girl after sleeping with her. Ellen wouldn't place much importance on it because she was constantly traveling around with Cross.
π: 0 β©: 1
It's hard to say what Komui would think! Maybe he'd be scandalized and consider Ellen to be a bad influence on Linali. But maybe he would just try to persuade Ellen to change that behaviour because it's not fit for someone living as part of the Vatican's army?
Ellen doesn't owe Kanda an explanation, so he might have a hard time figuring out what's actually going on. Getting his info through Linali might be his only way to understand what Ellen's really thinking.
Yes, that's true. But I find it strange that the 14th had short hair. When you look at the pictures of the two brothers, the one with the long hair seems to resemble Tyki more than the other one. At least from the back. But we only saw Mana with short hair... I also imagine that the 14th was the Earl's favourite... We don't really know why though...
Well, marrying someone who has seen the same things as she did might help her overcome the end of the war... Ellen doesn't know what kind of future she could have with Kanda - it seems more unstable than what Link could offer her. If the war is over and she is married to Link, there might also be no more need to supervise her. Then they could either lead a good live when they managed to become comfortable around eachother, or there might also be a chance that Link will leave her. Though I doubt it, his sense of duty would probably extend to his wife as well...
Allen once said that he was happy with Mana, even though they were poor and constantly on the move. So maybe Ellen could still be happy with Kanda even if neither of them can really settle down during and after the war...
Well, Ellen's husband would either never know or he would have to deal with his wife having already been taken by another man before him. I also doubt that Ellen would care that much.
π: 0 β©: 1
I think Komui would try and suitably say what Ellen is doing and how she behaves is not compatible with the Vatican's image of a pure and god-fearing army and that she might get in trouble if she isn't careful... but Ellen might think she has to be more careful. Komui would certainly attribute her behavior to her time with Cross (and would complain that such a man like Cross should not allowed to be near children). Komui might be reluctant to let Ellen and Linali be friends, but I don't think Komui would want to deprive Linali if female companionship in a world of men.
They only seem to be using each other for sexual gratification, so Kanda might be really clueless on how Ellen thinks. Seeing as they are only using each other with no pretenses of their relationship being anything other than physical, Ellen doesn't need to explain to him why she would be stopping their relationship. So, Kanda might have to go to Linali. I think Ellen might confide in Linali. Linali woudl be her friend and understand female problems a bit better.
Ah, I really wanted the 14th to have the long hair. It would have been so pretty and elegant. I loved the chapters where Allen had his long hair... I wish Hoshino had kept it... It must have been Mana with the long hair... or the 14th might have cut his hair short after awakening...?
I guess the Earl has particular taste...
It's not that Ellen wouldn't be happy poor or rich, but would she constantly want to fight with Kanda? Couples based on "opposites attract" don't actually last. They burn out. Maybe after a lifetime of instability, a comfortable stable life is what Ellen woudl want? Maybe she would want to forget the war? Who knows...
Link might come to love Ellen so as not to leave her, but he seems that he woudl always chose his work over her, and I don't think Ellen would ever really commit to loving anyone after it turned out Mana was a lie. I don't think she would open herself up to that kind of hurt again.
Well, I think Ellen would understand the hypocrisy of putting great importance to a woman's virginity and not a mans. She would tell Link to deal with it. It's not like she is looking into his past and questioning him on his past lovers!
π: 0 β©: 1
I just remembered that Komui's not (currently) present in the one-shot I'm writing ;3 But I agree, he would warn Ellen, not necessarily because he disagrees that much, but to keep her safe. It's best to keep a low profile by conforming with the order's rules, especially if you're already suspicious.
Well, in the end it would be far better if Ellen explained on her own, but I guess that wouldn't really happen unless she is pressed to do it, either by Kanda or Linali. Linali has more chances of success, especially if she knows the reason for Ellen stopping their relationship and if she thinks that Kanda has a right to know.
Aaah, Allen with long hair...... I really don't get which brother is supposed to be who... They look like a little Tyki (the one with the long, curly hair) and a little Allen (the one with the short, spiky hair). But if that comparison is intended then why does the 14th have curly hair whenever he manifests himself within Allen?? And why does he have short, spiky hair whenever other people were talking about him? (And while I'm at it; why do the Earl resemble the image I had of Mana??)
I think for Ellen it would be best to have a chance at settling down. And if she can't live that way, then she could always move on... But Allen and Kanda are similar to each other, right? Even though they seem like complete opposites.
I think Link can feel best if he can a) do his work and b) be with Allen / Ellen. As long as Allen IS his work he seems rather content. I'm thinking of his possessiveness again when he "protected" Allen from the third exorcists ;3 He seems to be doing quite well as Allen's guardian. But I agree, he might chose work over anything, at least as long as Leverrier is around. If Leverrier told Link: "You did a good job. It's over now. Settle down with your wife and lead a good life" Link would. That's how I can imagine him to be and I like him for being so dutiful X3
I think Link would try his best not to hurt or leave Ellen. He is aware of how much Allen loves Mana and how hard it is for him to see him as anything else but that perfect and loving man. He knows how hurt Allen is. Maybe Kanda would try to as well, but he might not have the means to give her this stability. Maybe Ellen should just marry someone completely unrelated to her life as an exorcist - but that way she would have no one to talk about her past experiences...
It's not Link's place to comment on her past lovers (or lover), he'll just have to accept her. I think he won't try to change her love life, he'll just have to try his best to satisfy her so that she won't be unfaithful once they're married. He must know that Ellen is modern in how she deals with her sexuality.
π: 0 β©: 1
Komui does want to keep the exorcists safe, so he tries to use his position. But I was convinced that he only really cared for Linali for awhile... But maybe he cares becausew he knows Linali woudl be sad if her friends got into trouble.
Still, I think Ellen would try and be subtle about her arrangement with Kanda.
I can't imagine Ellen wanting to explain herself to Kanda, but if she thought it might reduce tension and put Kanda at ease, she just might explain the situation herself.
The Earl really did look like a wanderer in the last chapter. Like what I had imagined Mana would look like as well. We have yet to get a clear look at Mana's face.
Kanda and Ellen do have a lot in common. They are both fiercely independent. But Ellen maybe want to have something normal in her life, something Link offers and something she would never think to ask from Kanda. I also think Ellen knows the difference between what she and Kanda do (use eachother for sex) and what a mrriage and family would be.
Ellen also probably views her marriage to Link as not something that is permanent. I think if she really got fed up with Link and her life, she would leave him and get a divorce.
We have no idea of what type of life Link has led. Kanda remarked that Crow are people raised from a young age by the Order, so maybe Link has also had a hard life. But I think, even after the war is over, the administrative part of the Order might remain... They are Vatican members, and the Vatican has three different police/military forces, don't they?
But Leverrier does seem fond of Link. So, Leverier may let Link enjoy the rest of his life or may want Link to continue working for him.
I always wondered, when the war was over, would the exorcists want anything to do with other exorcists? The war was not a pleasant time for anyone, would they want to be reminded of it? If Ellen chose to be with Kanda, she woudl be reminded of the war every day. Even with Link, she would never be far from the Vatican's grip or the war.
I wonder how Link will deal with how modern Ellen is? From what I understand about Victorian sexuality, women were expected to be passive (it sounds so repressing and boring). Maybe Link will appreciate how active Ellen is?
π: 0 β©: 1
Hm, yes it would make sense that Komui only cares about Linali. But I guess he came to care for the other exorcists as well because he must have seen that they aren't in a much different situation than he is. They mostly don't want to be exorcists but they have to fight.
Ellen surely wouldn't let herself be seen with Kanda (I also don't think that Kanda would allow that), I don't think the others would realized without Ellen telling them.
Yes, I think Ellen would at least want to try lead a normal life and not one of constant fighting and wandering. Asking Kanda to settle down with her... I think that seems unimaginable for Ellen.
Ellen first thinks that despite her and Link's engagement, they would never really marry because they were not in love (seems a romantic idea now I think about it) but Link makes it clear that there's no point in getting engaged if they don't plan on marrying.
I agree - Ellen would stop the relationship if she could no longer deal with it, maybe she wouldn't if she knew that Link loved her...
We know nothing about Link, but that he is a Crow, so yes, he probably was raised to become a fighter from very early on, but apparently he must have been bright enough to end up as Leverrier's inspector instead of an half-akuma like Madarao and co... But I can imagine that his life hadn't been easy either...
Some part of the Black Order will probably remain. I don't know forces the Vatican have, the exorcists and the Crow, and maybe some other things. Even if the war was won, there probably are still things to do.
If Leverrier saw that Link enjoyed being married to Ellen, he probably would let him be.
I guess that Ellen (if she survives the war) could not get away from the memory... She probably would need to find something other to do to keep her mind away from it (traveling around like she did with Mana, or keep herself busy by raising children ;3)
It would be quite funny if Link was secretly quite fond of how active Ellen is. He seems to be a strict and correct person, but he probably would still sleep with Ellen - they will marry anyway and there's no virginity of hers to lose anymore. I bet Link can be quite passionate!
π: 0 β©: 1
Maybe Komui came to see the other exorcists as victims like Linali, and that they also needed to be looked after.
Ellen and Kanda would not advertise their relationship and so I think only close friends would know of their "arrangement". I don't think Ellen woudl be ashamed of what she was doing, but would realize a religious organization would not approve.
Ellen probably couldn't even imagine the life she and Kanda could live as a couple, living in one place. It would be laughable to her. Kanda is not a domestic person and I think she would easily dismiss the idea of settling down with Kanda (which might offend him).
Ellen would probably see the engagement and something flexible. It isn't a marriage, so it isn't forever and can be broken off. She would probably favour a long engagement as well. While Link would mean it if he asked her to marry him (probably not for romantic reasons though...). Ellen would not appreciate being forced to make a decision.
I can't imagine Ellen becoming submissive in a marriage, and if she felt neglected or abused in anyway, she would leave. She has lived outside of society before (and is more comfortable that way) so being a divorcee might not bother her.
As Allen said, Link seems to be the smart type, and he is a personal secretary to Leverrier. But he is also a fighter. Maybe Leverrier protected Link from becoming a half-akuma?
I think the Vatican would keep some of the staff- maybe keep the Crow as security.
During the Victorian period, women were expected to be the first teachers of their children. Though Ellen would probably want to travel for a while before having children (if she had the time before she died from her Innocence).
Beneath Link's calm, cool and placid exterior, lays a very passionate lover!! I think Link woudl appreciate her vigor and how lively Ellen is.
π: 0 β©: 1
I guess Komui thinks that he is responsible for the order now and that he is the only one who can protect them from being used as tools in the Vatican's war to preserve their religion. But I guess if he really had to, he would still choose Linali over everyone else.
Hm, yes, Ellen would be reasonable enough to see that it might not be all too clever to reveal what kind of relationship she has with Kanda - if they were married then it would be less of a problem I think. The exorcists and the other people of the Black Order might not be thaaaaat strict about the rules, but there might still be some that take their role as an army of the Pope very seriously and would condemn any kind of romantic or sexual involvement between their members. It could distract them from what they really need to do.
Maybe Kanda would be fine with settling down, but he doesn't appear to be that interested in it. It would not be surprising if Ellen just assumed that he would not consent... But you're right, maybe Kanda would find that offensive - she goes and makes decisions on her own without even talking to him about it. But it's not like Kanda and Ellen to sit down and talk... Maybe if they tried they could manage their relationship...
Yes, Ellen would surely get a divorce or simply run away. I don't think Link means any harm, but he seems to be a strict person. He loves authority and will therefore follow the rules. If he expects his wife to be submissive, he would also expect Ellen to submit to him. Even if he doesn't want her to be submissive, he might still assume a guardian role, which she might not be comfortable with because it would seem patronizing or restricting her in her choices.
I would be nice to have Leverrier protecting Link from such a fate, but I doubt Link is happy with the situation...
Well, I guess Link would not expect Ellen to have his children right away, but travelling god knows where for an indefinite time? (I'm ignoring the threat of her Innocence at the moment, even though you're right. Allen's chances of living long after the war are slim) Probably Kanda wouldn't either, because he might want to travel independently without children holding them back.
A passionate Link! How I'd like that!!
π: 0 β©: 1
Komui is still only there for Linali and if she died, he might just give up... Komui doesn't come off as having a very stable mind, if he were to lose his sister, he seems like he would crack under the pressure.
Leverrier wouldn't like to know of romantic relationships, because (especially at this time frame) any contraceptives and sex outside of marriage was condemned. Leverrier wants a pure army of god, he could dispense punishment (especially for Ellen, and it was deemed a greater offense for women to have sex outside marriage) for Kanda and Ellen's relationship.
I think Ellen would have learned some discretion from Cross and his "romantic adventure". Or maybe one of Cross' mistresses sat Ellen down and told her how to be careful.
It is hard to say how many of the exorcists are very religious. I can imagine that seeing friends and innocent people killed can harden people towards religion. Allen even said he didn't even care about god, Kanda doesn't care about the church, and Linali hates god. I think many of their friends would turn a blind eye to their physical relationship, but might not know there is no love between them and that they are just using each other.
I don't think there is much incentive for either of them to sit down and talk about their relationship- unless Link's proposal is enough to make Kanda think twice about letting Ellen go.
It may be very difficult, especially those who knew Kanda and Ellen were sleeping together and now that the war was over, expected them to get married.
To Kanda, Ellen would be ending their relationship for someone else (he might even think she had slept with Link at some point) and is tossing him aside. Worse, he might have figured out why the Order wants Link and Ellen to marry. And he certainly wouldn't approve of Ellen's reason to marry Link...
But worse, to Kanda, Ellen wrote him off and didn't even consider his feelings on the matter. Like he wouldn't care she was leaving. But that is the type of relationship they have...
For someone who killed the Earl, a war hero and survived many near-death situations, to have a man (simply by virtue of being a man and she being a woman) woudl presume to lord over her and treat her like a child that must be watched over, I don't think Ellen would tolerate it. She would need to be Link's equal in every decision. Ellen would probably be considered a "New Woman".
It Ellen and Link haven't known each other a long time before marriage, it might take awhile before they were comfortable enough with each other to sleep together. And I think Link might quietly approve (or at least ignore) Ellen's attempts to control her ability to reproduce. He probably isn't too eager to have children immediately and have a dozen kids.
It would be funny to think or link as a passionate lover or devoted husband... But it could be possible~
π: 0 β©: 1
You're right. Without Linali there doesn't seem to be a purpose to Komui's life. I actually find their devotion to eachother quite sad in a way; the moment Komui came to the Black Order, Linali might have regained her family, but she could also no longer try to escape the prison of the Black Order because he was there; because he has given up a lot to be with here, so she can no longer run away. But yeah, maybe I'm thinking too much about that.
The catholic church still condemns it, right? So I'm not surprised that a couple is not allowed to plan how they want to lead their private life (including having children and sexuality) in the Victorian times. I've heard in one of my coursed that priests were being sent out to families that failed to have children on a more or less regular basis. People were supposed to reproduce after all!
Anway, despite this I can't imagine Leverrier promoting relationships within the order.
Ellen probably could profit from the time she spent with Cross, I bet she learned quite a few things from the ladies.
I think Kanda would first try to persuade her his way; with showing her what kind of passion they have together. I think depending on Ellen's mood, this can be quite effective - unless Link is ready to be physical as well to show that with him she can have passion as well as security (in some way or another)
Kanda has to try hard, because his cards aren't that good...
I also think that she is modern and wouldn't accept anybody telling her what to do and how to behave. But I can imagine that she might try out how it feels to be pampered, but she might grow tired of it very easily. That's not her way of living after all, even if she settles down, she will have her own mind how to do things.
I can imagine that Link sees it as a duty to have children, because that's somehow the next step after marriage. If Ellen made the first steps towards something as physical as she has with Kanda, then Link probably would comply (it's a competition, right? *lol* But only if Link acknowledges Kanda as any kind of threat to his "mission" he received from Leverrier)
I like the image of such a Link! Maybe I'm fooled because they recently spent so much time together in the manga. It's hard to say where duty ends for Link and friendship begins. We don't really know how they think about eachother. Anyway, I don't have a hard time imagining Link as a passionate lover, at least not with Allen/Ellen - some kind of passion is required if one deals with him/her ;3
π: 0 β©: 1
The story of the Lee siblings is sad. They may be trapped, but at least they are together. I think Komui was realistic, knowing they could never escape the Order anyway. With Linali's compatibility, the Order would never have let her leave.
The recent pope is very conservative and had condemned the use of contraceptives. But still, I don't think people really pay attention to what he says. But in the 19th century, it was a different matter.
the priests visiting families is really frightening. A family could be ostracised from their community for not having "enough" children.
I've heard stories from 40-30 years ago, how priests would go to clinics that gave out condoms and ask the nurses to pock holes in condoms... recently, in Ireland, customs officials would do the same if they found someone mailing in condoms.
I think Leverrier wouldn't either. He doesn't want unmarried people having sex and it might be a risk if the exorcists become attached to one another. They might try and bring someone back to life. Leverrier also doesn't think of exorcists as people.
Ellen grew up in a different society in Victorian period. She probably would have confronted the hypocrisy and the injustice of judging people on their sexual history. The women Ellen woudl have met also would have told her to view sex favorably.
It does depend if Ellen thinks a relationship can last with just passion. But Kanda will probably not want to marry her- just keep their relationship of convenience the way it is. Link can offer her more.
Kanda is also stubborn. He probably won't realize the stigma Ellen has received from sleeping with Kanda before marriage. If Ellen turns down Link, she might have a hard time finding someone who will marry her. I'm not sure Kanda cares, knows or appreciates that.
Ellen is fairly practical. She knows what she can live with and without so manybe what she considers necessary for living is a low standard. But she may be curious as to how rich people live and how it would be not to have to struggle and work. But she probably woudl soon grown bored with it. Wives were really just decorations in a good home. Ellen would not be satisfied just staying home and being pampered.
Marriage was seen as a means to produce children and replace the next generation. But it is depressing to see having kids as a job. I hope that Link would be a gentlemen and not try and rush a physical relationship with Ellen. It would be cute- having Link and Ellen courting, which wouldn't have happened with Kanda.
Link woudl have to see Kanda as a threat. After all, if he proposed and Ellen didn't immediately accept, he'd have to think that Kanda was the reason (he would not consider that she wasn't sure she wanted to be married).
I think Link will stay resolved to his mission to monitor Allen and will keep a distance between them. After all, he might have to kill Allen in the future. I thin Link will have moments were he doubts the Order, but will have to swallow them because he has been raised to save the world and that anything the Order does is worth that. He had objections to the third exorcists, but he hasn't done anything about it.
I think Allen is learning how to push Link's buttons and annoy him. Allen is showing Link's humans side, so I think Ellen could get him to be passionate.
π: 0 β©: 1
I wonder! I think it's silly to forbid the use of contraceptives (I think it IS allowed for HIV positive people) and many probably don't bother to listen...
Bah, I really find it disturbing - people should be allowed to decide for themselves if they want to have children or not... But that's today... It probably was not really something you could decide on back in Victorian times.
Hm, you're right. If Ellen would turn down Link it might be difficult to find someone else... And Kanda might really not think much about marriage or possible consequences of their relationship...
Link might consider a wife to be mere decoration, but he knows Ellen, so he can't possibly expect her to be nothing more than some sort of puppet.
I think that Link would be far more comfortable with courting and keeping some sort of distance between them, than just rush into a physical relationship like Kanda and Ellen did. Ellen might wish to be physical though because that's the only kind of relationship she knows (thanks to Kanda).
I guess Kanda is a threat to Link...
At the moment I'm fonder of Link and Allen's relationship, than Kanda and Allen's maybe because there wasn't much in the last few chapters, while Link and Allen managed to get closer in a short time...
π: 0 β©: 1
Contraceptives are absolutely essential for people. the world cannot support so many people and I think a big part of democracy and equality is about controlling one's body.
Children were seen as a duty during the Victorian period. married couple's saw reproduction as a means to an end, not an enjoyable activity (well, men were allowed to find in enjoyable. Women who enjoyed sex were told they suffered from nymphomania.) It was during this time that the issue of how many children one should have came up. The British government said that children had to be educated. So, suddenly instead of having many children who could work, they suddenly turned into an expensive. People couldn't afford to have so many children. It urged people to seek ways to control how many children they had.
I think no matter what Ellen chose, to marry Link, work things out with Kanda, or even reject both men, Ellen will be doing it on her own terms.
Kanda can be very thick sometimes... he might ignore or not even be aware of the social conventions he has broken because of his relationship with Ellen. And the Order may not confront Kanda on it, but they would confront Ellen. I can imagine that Ellen would receive harassment because of her choice to sleep with Kanda.
Having a wife would be essential to his career. A person might think it odd if a man did not take a wife. So, it might be a good career move for Link to take a wife. For women, marriage was essential. If women worked, they couldn't get the same wages as a man (they were paid less for the same work), and they might have to live with a relative for the rest of their lives. They also could chose to join a convent and become a nun.
Link must understand that Ellen would not be satisfied being a decoration.
Wouldn't Ellen be really shocked if Link tried to properly court her? Like, if he brought her flowers and chocolates. She might not know what to do. During her life with Cross, if Cross ever behaved in such a way, it was only to get into bed faster with the lady. So, the realization that Link was courting her (like she was a "pure" woman) and not trying to sleep with her faster, might confuse her. the relationship she had with Kanda was purely sexual, so the idea that someone could treat her differently might please her, or might not.
If Link treats Ellen better, maybe Kanda will realize he really will lose his relationship with Ellen.
Maybe there will be more Kanda-Allen interaction in the coming chapters. But yes, the chapters with Allen and Link together have been very good and I am fond of them...
π: 0 β©: 1
Well, yes, that sounds very practical. Children are quite expensive, even though they can help by working. With a family of the upper class it might be the same; they were not really required to do any work (but they could) so they had to rely on the fortunes of the family, especially those children that did not inherit.
Hm. If Leverrier knew of her relationship to Kanda then I can imagine that he black mailed her with it. Maybe the option to marry Link would have been some way out of punishment for sleeping with a man outside of marriage.
As Ellen doesn't have a family or an income she might have to depend on a husband. But as she's used to making money (through gambling, maybe street performing) she might pull through without a husband's help. But it certainly would be more relaxing if she didn't have to worry about money and a place to live all the time. If the war is over and she has to leave the Black Order she will lose her home (unless someone - maybe Linali - will take her in).
I doubt Ellen likes being dependant on other people, but maybe for the sake of a home (or just a person to feel comfortable with) she would consent to marry someone - but she probably wouldn't agree to be just the pretty wife who stays at home all of the time.
Hehe, the idea's quite nice. If Link officially starts to court her Ellen would be quite surprised, especially, as you say, Link's objective is not to lure her into his bed. If Kanda, whom she already had a relationship with, would start to give her flowers or sweets, then maybe she'd be amused - because why would Kanda do something this (according to him) embarrassing and useless?
I think Ellen would be able to appreciate the attention if Link suddenly started being that nice to her.
π: 0 β©: 1
England practices a type of inheritance: the first born son inherites. It is not actually a good thing for the upper class to have many children except as insurance in case the eldest dies. The other sons would go into the army or possibly the priesthood.
By the end of the 19th century, a male and female child was called "the gentleman's family". So the upper class were practicing some kind of birth control.
Would Ellen care enough that others knew she was sleeping with Kanda? I don't know if Ellen would care enough to want to keep it secret enough to be blackmailed.
Though, Leverier doesn't seem like a very nice man, so he might try and punish Ellen. Girls were seen to be more in control of their sexuality, so the fact Ellen slept with Kanda is more deviant than Kanda sleeping with her. Men were thought to desire sex more, so it would be understandable for Kanda to look for sex.
I think Ellen would be resourceful and be able to create her own income. She is a successful gambler and manages to keep up with Cross' habits, so I think she could live quiet comfortable. But she would always have to be on the move. All her life, she hasn't had a real, solid home. While she has a room at the Order, she is rarely there. Having an actual home to live in might be appealing to Ellen.
Ellen doesn't even like bothering people with her own troubles, so I doubt she would consent to be dependent on a friend. Though Linali would probably be insulted and say that Ellen was being selfish again.
Hm, by 1881, I think Oxford is accepting women into their college. So, the female exorcists might want to be educated. Komui certainly would allow it. He could never refuse Linali anything she wanted, and being educated is a way to increase the age at which women marry. Maybe Linali and Ellen would be interested in expanding their education?
That kind of attention would really make Kanda jealous. If Kanda had given her flowers, she might think it a joke. with Link courting her, she may be very flattered that he is treating her with such respect instead of thinking she is loose and would just jump into bed with him. After it became known Ellen was sleeping with Kanda, I don't doubt that other male members of the Order made inappropriate comments about her and made advances on her. To be treated like she wasn't a bad person, she might prefer it to how other men treat her.
If Link wanted to court Ellen, he would do a good job of it. But he still might be only doing it, not because he likes her, but because it is protocol and he has been ordered to...
π: 0 β©: 1
Or the other children could go to some colony and get lands there; there were a lot of so-called "Gentlemen farmers" in Africa around the turn of the century and the earlier years of the 20th century. They didn't really have any prospects in their homeland (because they wouldn't inherit) but they were still rich enough to get their own patch of land in a colony and pretend to be high nobility there *lol*
Ah, then Kanda and Ellen are already overdoing it by having three children ;3 But I can imagine them having a bigger family, at least they don't have to worry about their income...
I doubt Ellen openly tells other people what kind of relationship she and Kanda have, it's nobody elses business. Maybe she would not let herself be blackmailed by that - she doesn't seem to care what other people think of her anyway - but if the situation was already dangerous because she's accused of allying herself with Noahs, then she might give in. Well, she did accept Link's proposal to get engaged, it probably was the easiest thing to do without getting herself into even more trouble...
I also don't think that Leverrier would try to punish Kanda, but Link might not be that fond of him for what he did with Ellen (even though she might be the one considered to be at fault for letting it happen).
I can't really imagine Ellen studying, but it might have been a good alternative to marriage. But what would she do with her new aquired knowledge? She seems like someone who would rather do manual labour than be a scholar.
Well, I can imagine Link doing it just because that's how you treat the woman you're supposed to marry. But maybe for Ellen the fact that he does it still means something. And the fact that Kanda doesn't do it might mean even more. He's the one she wanted to be with (even if just to satisfy her desires), but he never did anything like that for her.
π: 0 β©: 1
True! colonialism was very big in France and Britain. And those there could pretend to be first born sons.
Ellen freely says she only wants to save the akuma and isn't ashamed of that. Many people have warned her about her attitude about akuma, and she hasn't taken the advice yet. So I also doubt she would care what people said about her relationship with Kanda. And she wouldn't advertise it, Cross woudl have taught her subtlety.
Ellen seems to press people's buttons, marrying Link could be a good political move for her. It may give her some protection or allay suspicions on her allegiance. After all, what kind of woman would betray her husband?
Link would always hold something against Kanda, his wife's first lover.
yeah, with Ellen's background, it would be hard to see her as an actual member of the upper-class or academia. Linali might be able to, because she grew up with her brother (and is supposed to be really smart). But Ellen grew up on the streets and never had any formal schooling.
I wouldn't be surprised if Ellen was actually very suspicious towards the upper class.
It does create an interesting dichotomy. Kanda says he really wants to be with her, but only for sex and he would never treat her with any kind of respect a proper lady would get. While Link is treating her very well (better than she thought she woudl ever be treated after everyone found out she was sleeping with Kanda). I really can't blame her for choosing Link.
π: 0 β©: 1
I think Link would really expect Ellen to be true to him after their marriage, but I wonder how much faith Leverrier (who started it all with giving Link this "mission") puts in her. He intended the marriage to be an extended supervision of Ellen, maybe also some that would fool her into believing that she was completely safe in he Vatican's hands. It could gain them Ellen's cooperation.
That Ellen would see benefits in this marriage is also likely, even though she would have been fine with only an engagement and no marriage later on.
Kanda "tainted" her after all. I doubt Link really cares, but for the sake of the rules he would still condemn him.
Linali would fit into an university, I could imagine it!
I guess Ellen would marry into the upper class, or at least somehow influential families if she chose to marry Link. Maybe that kind of lifestyle wouldn't suit her much.
I think choosing Link would be wiser, but Ellen doesn't always make the best of decisions - it really depends on what kind of future she wants. Link would certainly be nicer to her *lol*
π: 0 β©: 1
I think Leverrier would never expect anything to develop between Ellen and Link, After all, Ellen is a Noah-traitor, and Link is his loyal subordinate. Link was probably chosen to be the groom because it was assumed he would never "fall" for Ellen. To Leverrier, the marriage is another way to control Ellen (and if she has children, it would further cement her inability to flee easily). To Link, he might be aware of what his marriage is. I don't think Ellen woudl be easily fooled into believing her marriage to Link is anything but more surveillance.
I think Link might be a little jealous, and worried that Ellen might eventually leave him for her old lover 9even if Kanda didn't treat her very well). But if their marriage is to survive, Link will have to develop trust in Ellen. Trust would be hard, because Link and Ellen know his mission to observe her comes first.
Ellen might act like a "gentleman" (I think she would act more like a man than a woman) but she would probably feel more comfortable in a relaxed setting. The upper class would be too stifling.
Yes, Ellen has made bad decisions. So, who will Ellen chose?
π: 0 β©: 1
Yes, that's true... I doubt Leverrier expects Ellen and Link to have a real relationship... Also because, as you say, it doesn't seem very likely that Link develops feelings for Ellen, which would then blind his better judgment...
I didn't even think as far as that children would bind Ellen to the order... That's of course true, I doubt she would ever abandon her children because of her own past. But I doubt Leverrier is that keen on it either; she will be unable to fight if she's pregnant (and maybe he doesn't really expect Link and Ellen be intimate once they're husband and wife...)
To build up trust between Link and Ellen is probably quite difficult considering how their relationship looks like. But Ellen probaly doesn't really trust Kanda either; as an exorcist yes, but not as a reliable man. So maybe Link's chances aren't that bad after all... He just has to work for it if he cares enough.
Yes, I doubt Ellen would be really lady-like... Maybe she'd grow into it because she's friends with Linali and Miranda... Having Kanda as a lover probably wouldn't encourage her to behave like a woman was expected to... But Link must expect her to have at least the same kind of interests than "ordinary" women have, or he wouldn't try to court her with flowers and the like *lol*
I don't know yet who she'll chose, as I'm not finished writing yet *lol* At the moment I'm leaning towards Link, but I haven't planned it out yet (because I write only occasionally). Or maybe she should marry no one and do her own thing, but that would not really be satsifying for me as a writer *lol* even though it would show that she's able to get by on her own, even as an unmarried woman...
π: 0 β©: 1
I would think Leverrier would have chosen Link to be Ellen's husband because he would not let his emotions blind him to his duty.
If Leverrier thought it would be easier to control Ellen if she had children, I would imagine he would be in favor of it. But there is also the problem she wouldn't be able to fight for some time... but if Leverrier thought she might not fight, or it could be a way to incapacitate a Noah.
Wow, Ellen's view of the men in her life must be abysmal. First, her father (turned out to be using her). Then she lived with Cross (who treats women as disposable objects), then Kanda (a good fighter but not stable), and Link (who is only marrying her to keep a close eye on her). It would be one thing to trust Kanda to watch out for her on the battlefield, because it goes both ways, but he would not make a very good boyfriend.
If Link decides he wants an emotional relationship, Ellen will also have to make the same decision.
I wonder how much experience Link has with women? He probably grew up in the Order, so he must have met few women. There are women, like the Matron who are very stern...
I would like an ending where Ellen decides she doesn't want to define her life with a man and decides that she can make her own decision. If she really doesn't believe she can have a satisfying relationship with Kanda or Link (and both have their large problems), why should she settle?
π: 0 β©: 1
True, true... Also her Noah part would be unable to fight properly if tied down by a pregnancy (the poor 14th! *lol*). It depends on whether Leverrier even requires Ellen to fight - if he wants to use her solely for controlling the Ark then she doesn't need to go out on the battle field any longer. If she doesn't encounter Noahs any longer and is kept sheltered or confined within the Black Order she might not suddenly betray the order in favour of her "family"...
Ellen might not agree with using pregnancy and a child as a tool to chain her to Link and the Black Order though. I can imagine though that she would be willing to become pregnant with Link's child to build up a relationship. It's actually a bit hard to say if she'd be afraid of the responsibility. Or maybe she'd be afraid to fail? Or maybe she'd be glad to be a mother? (But she's still young... so maybe not)
I bet her view of men shouldn't be that good, but then again Ellen always acts as if she believes in the best of humanity. She never abandons humans, no matter what they did. So she might not come to resent men just because she's seen a few bad examples.
I guess Link doesn't have any experience with women... He's a Crow, so I guess he didn't have a usual childhood with normal family structures. But he probably read enough books to know how things are done in the proper way. I bet there must have been guide books or similar things around.
If Ellen decides against marriage then it'd would appear quite emancipatory to me. Which is not a bad thing; you've observed that she's not moving withing society's boundaries, therefore she would not need to worry about breaking any rules or expectations.
But then again, if Ellen cares to have a home, whatever that might be in her understanding, she would probably try to build relationships. Ellen probably is in love with Kanda in some way or another, but doesn't feel comfortable with him. She does feel more comfortable with Link because he's a person who could provide stability and he treats her nicely. But then again, he's only with her because he's been told to... Ah. It's hard to tell what would be the best choice for Ellen to make. But she's still young. She could refuse to settle and marry - if she wants to - later when she feels the need to settle down (if that ever happens).
π: 0 β©: 1
Well, in the eyes of Leverrier, the use of the arc might be worth the loss of an exorcist. I think there would be a great anxiety over keeping the 14th on their side. With Ellen, they can just lock her up and wait for her transformation.
Yes, poor 14th. She didn't sign up for that...
Ellen might not have much of say when it comes to her body (but she probably wouldn't agree to marry Link if she didn't have a say). The age of consent in England was 16, but I doubt every girl got married soon after. As Ellen doesn't have nay real experience with parents (and has probably developed trust issues with Mana), she might not be all that enthusiastic to have children, especially in a time of war.
I always thought that Allen's/Ellen's good view of humanity was more of an act. Something she might have picked up from Mana. In her childhood, she wasn't treated well by anyone. We don't knows much about Cozimo, but he was abusive and no one stepped in to help. And she would have spent a long time staying in bars, meeting not-nice people.
Hm, Link might not have much experience, but there are ways of finding out what is proper. Leverrier is probably married, but I doubt Link would go to Leverrier for advice (seeing as Leverrier doesn't want Ellen and Link to have a real relationship).
For a story set in the Victorian age, I always concentrate of the rights and roles of women. However, Ellen is separate from general society, even from a young age. She seems to be a person in control of herself, and I think she would be able to notice that the institution of marriage is very unequal and would not benefit her. On the other hand, she has never had a family and might want one. If she sees Link as the only means for that, she might agree. But he is only with her because of duty, and I don't think Ellen would settle for that. And even if she cares for Kanda, he is unable to express that and she isn't very comfortable with him.
She could always postpone any marriage with a long engagement? Or she could meet up with Kanda or link years later. Kanda might have matured or Link might have distanced himself from the Order.
π: 0 β©: 1
Now I imagine the 14th being outraged because of what Ellen tends to get herself into *lol*
Link might also have better things to do than taking care of children, but if it's proper for married people to have children then he will still do it. But I doubt he'd try to force Ellen into anything.
Ellen might feel overwhelmed by being a mother because she never had one... She had Mana though, but that didn't turn out well...
Well... of course it might be an act, but Allen still can't help but save people because he'd feel guilty all the time for not doing it...
The best option probably is to not rush into anything. She is engaged to Link now, but at the beginning she thought that it was just some sort of act and that they wouldn't really marry, so maybe she'd count on that.
Things might change considerably if some years passed before Ellen makes the decision to start a family.
π: 0 β©: 1
Marriage was viewed as a means to get children. Even today, there are part of the western world that ask couples as soon as they get married if they are trying for children (France and Ireland come to mind). It seems to be deeply ingrained in people.
That is true, the engagement could last a very long time and Ellen might not even take Link's proposal very seriously. She might treat is as a public excuse for Link to follow her around and spy on her without being seen as indecent. If Link even brought up choosing a date to get married, Ellen might have tor consider how serious they are.
π: 0 β©: 1
Yes. It's a bit unsettling though if it's still viewed as such today. There are a lot of couples who have children without being married or that are married without having children... But that's because today less people insist on not having sex before marriage...
Well, I don't really know how Ellen consideres marriage, but she is put off that Link wants to marry her without them being in love or being at least friends. Being engaged is fine with her, because she does see the reasoning of Leverrier behind it...
If it gets really serious Ellen probably needs to think about what marriage means for her and if she really wants it (with Link or Kanda or anybody else...)
π: 0 β©: 1
It is terrible to judge someone if they are sexually active or not. But it was the reality that people lived with for a long time. It was considered a crime to even try to control reproduction. Even today, some people in the states still protest the use of contraceptives, like the pill or condoms.
To marry someone without love seems to be very mercenary. I remember hearing that the concept of love being part of marriage is relatively new. A woman was supposed to marry someone her parents deemed appropriate and the girl was lucky if she and her husband came to love one another. I think it was in the late 19th century that the middle class began to want love. So Ellen is right to want someone besides necessity to be the base of her marriage to anyone.
Both Link and Kanda seem to have their problems and I wonder if Ellen would be willing to deal with that, or even if she should...
π: 0 β©: 1
In one of my classes (I guess it was on the BrontΓ« sisters) my teacher told us that people were concerned to no longer marry just becaues of money and status - but I guess that it really depended on necessity. Upper classes were still very concerned to be run over by the middle class, therefore a marriage below their own status would be considered bad.
But I guess middle-classes don't have to worry about these things. I don't know what Link, Ellen and Kanda would be - I imagined Link to come from a rich background, probably made richer or more important thanks to Leverrier's support, but Kanda and Ellen probably aren't even middle class... Kanda probably doesn't care about marriage because it belongs to a world outside of the black order while Ellen might care but does want love to be involved - and if not love then friendship and trust.
I guess that as long as she can't trust Kanda or Link, she won't marry them...
(But nothing speaks against a flash forward where all of them are a bit older. Maybe she can make a decision then. I usually write Ellen as a young wife and young mother, maybe I'll make an exception this time and let her be about five to ten years older *lol*)
π: 0 β©: 1
Well, the middle -class people only mingled with those of the middle-class. If they were to fall in love, it would be with someone of the same class. I think it was during the Bronte sisters period that romantic love was developing.
I would think that supporters of the Order would give their children into the service of the Order. It would be better than become Finders (who die quickly). Or the Order might take young children from orphanages because they would not be missed. I also think children could be found guilty of crimes and executed, so many they took children from their as well...
Even if Ellen was born to middle/upper class parents, she did not enjoy that kind of lifestyle. She grew up very poor in unsanitary conditions in an industrialized country. Her life improved only a little with Mana (she probably wasn't beaten and was cared for). Kanda doesn't seem to care for anything that has to do with regular humans who don't know about the Order. I think for Ellen, love would have to be a reason to get married (unless the knowledge of what Mana did and the knowledge of the 14tht alters her).
Not all women would have married very young, it would be possible to postpone getting engaged/married. I would like to see Ellen, older and more confident.
π: 0 β©: 1
Yes... I guess it would be pointless for Ellen to just marry anyone she can't feel comfortable with. The life she lead with Mana was not the best, but it was still a good time (stuff with the 14th excluded).
If she married older maybe she is able to make better decisions for herself. She does not need to be dependant on any man, because if she leaves the order to maybe get educated or start working, she might have the independance she wishes for. She can marry later on, there probably are many men who'd want a woman like her >w< (only that she might have trouble because of the way she looks, but depending on what work she does it doesn't really matter).
π: 0 β©: 1
I'm not sure if she could get educated (I think the educated airs she puts on are fabricated), but I think she would be a great gambler! If done right, it can be done professionally.
The way she looks might be a problem. She would be considered very odd, with her white hair and scar. And then there are all of the hidden scars. She may feel a bit shy and self-conscious about them, but I doubt she would let anyone know that's how she feels.
π: 0 β©: 1
*lol* not really the most respectable work, but certainly very good in securing herself an income.
Well, no, a real education probably wouldn't suit here, but she might pick up some more knowledge that could benefit her.
Hm, well, Allen didn't have any problems openly showing his scars with Link. There probably would be less problems with the people that knew where all those scars came from... But it would make sense for Ellen to feel uncomfortable about her body, white hair and scar included. Maybe it'd be difficult to find a man, or trust him enough to show what her previous life did to her.
π: 0 β©: 1
Would Ellen really be worried about being respectable? If she grew up with Cross, she might have been mortified of what he put her through, but might not be too judgmental on what it takes to survive. In the 19th century, women did what they had to to survive. Besides, Ellen seems like she enjoys gambling.
Scars don't have the same affect on a man or woman. If a girl gets scared, it is seen as a tragedy. I remember reading about Heidelberg scars". Students used to belong to secret fencing societies and would try and get scars on their faces. Then they would douse the scars in alcohol to keep them. It was supposed to be very dashing.
Ellen may not be ashamed other her scars, possible because she might not have thought herself marriageable material anyway. Maye she doesn't care if Link judges her, or maybe she might show him to try and frighten him off?
At this period, I think most men would react badly to seeing such a scarred girl. But Link's reaction could be a way to win Ellen over.
π: 0 β©: 1
No, I guess Ellen wouldn't mind that much - she does what it takes and doesn't think much about how other people could judge her for it. I also think she enjoys gambling!!
Bah! Yes, I did some fencing once in university and our master told us about that as well! I laughed at that time, because it does seem strange that having "battle" scars can be deemed manly. Women were excluded from that then and I doubt that they found these foolish things that great to look at. But I don't know...
Well, Kanda doesn't seem to have any scars because he heals fast, so he might not really understand what it means to have scars for life. But he might not really react to scars anyway, considering in what kind of environment they live. Ellen probably can expect not to be judged for scars by Link and Kanda, even though Kanda might judge her for being cursed... And Link might just not care...
π: 0 β©: 1
Maybe it is the independence that appeals to Ellen? I also think she likes tricking people, because they assume she is clueless and naive.
I love fencing~ I use a foil.
I think I read about the Heidelberg scar in Mark Twain's a "Tramp Abroad". I think that fencing in secret and with real blades was illegal, but this was a way to show off. (though I would think the better fencers had no scars...)
Yes, Kanda does have a perfect,scar-less body. But I think he might not be disgusted by Ellen's scars. He knows she got them for good reasons and he's probably seen worse. Plus, he seems to be more repulsed by her curse anyway (how does that work in their relationship anyway?).
Link also might not find it too bad, because it is a sign that she is an exorcist as accepts them. But, I might be giving these 19th century men too much credit...
π: 0 β©: 1
I guess Ellen really is drawn towards independency because it's what she has known all her life (even though she had to follow Mana and Cross for a while). Ellen's dark side is funny - she really seems to enjoy tricking, but apparently only if the people deserve it. Or maybe that's just a conveniant excuse! ;3
I didn't fence for long unfortunately, but I probably wasn't that good anyway. I always got bruises all over my body (because I bruise so easily)! But it's such an elegant sport! I like it more than Kendo (which I also tried out for a bit, but didn't like either *lol*)
Hm, I can't really remember what we were told about these fencing matches. I remember that they were and are still done within university societies because of tradition. They did fight with real blades but they weren't real matches if I remember correctly, just some sort of showing off, where they did some previously practised sword clashing >w< But that is in Switzerland, I bet that there were different things done as well.
Yes, I was thinking about the curse and Kanda's repulsion towards it as well. I guess he doesn't really touch her much, just what is necessary. Or maybe he doesn't dislike it as much as he claims...
Well I hope for these two that you don't give them too much credit! They should be a bit more open in their view of women because the women that are part of the order are forced to behave differently than what society expects of them. But who knows. Maybe we both demand too much of them... If Link likes obeying rules and Kanda is alway stuck up anyway, it might be difficult for Ellen to accept either of the two as a man she'd want at her side... But they are still young, they might grow up to know better...
π: 0 β©: 1
Maybe Ellen likes power that comes from gambling. She may have spent years with Mana, but his love turned out to be a lie. I also don't think that Ellen was absolutely passive with Mana. I think she still acted like a fierce brat. I think she started her polite act after Mana died.
Cross probably didn't care for Ellen much, and left her alone a lot of the time. I think she still remained independent.
It really is elegant~ I also have a lot of bruises on my arms and chest, and my muscles are sore... but I really needed a sport. I tried Iaido, which has some similarities to kendo.
They were members of secret societies would only socialize with other members of their clubs. but I don't think it was with the intention to kill in their duels. they even had a surgeon on hand when they fought. But I don't doubt that some students died in accidents.
Hm, Kanda never brings in the curse again in the manga besides the first time. Allen/Ellen is very strong, so maybe Kanda is willing to overlook his revulsion? It is hard to tell what he feels...
I would think the Order would produce a different type of woman, like the Matron. She really likes to order people around, even exorcists. I woudl hope that Link and Kanda did not have traditional expectations towards women because of their fealinsg with women and the Order.
π: 0 β©: 1
That's true; gambling does give Ellen some controlling power and probably also quite a lot of money! I think that Ellen probably is deeply shaken by Mana's "betrayal" (I'm not sure how to call it...) but I think she still cherished the moments she (or Allen, whatever - is the same to me *lol*) had with him. I guess as a clown or pierrot one is bound to act and assume an always cheerful and polite mask. So Allen might have picked up Mana's mannerisms very early but enforced it when Mana died - he wears the Mask of Mana now because Mana is gone. It just makes me think that his constant influence on Allen does somehow remind me of an Akuma - as if he had really taken over his body when Allen turned him into an Akuma. But I guess Allen is slowly letting go of the mask...
With Cross, ones has to have a certain level of independancy, or else Allen wouldn't survive! It probably was even more difficult for a girl. I doubt Cross treated her better just because she's a girl - for him she would probably still be a brat.
Maybe Link has a similar view of women as Leverrier seems to have; they are tools, not that different from men (maybe even worse, considering how women were seen as a treat because they easily gave in to temptation) and should be used as such. He had no qualms about forcing Linali to take up arms again and to fight. That's what she's here for. So maybe Link sees it similarily. Which would also imply that he would appreciate strenght in Ellen because being strong, useful and intelligent was important for their fighting. Kanda might like her for the same reasons; he doesn't like her because she's a woman (whatever he might think of women) but because she's doing fine as an exorcist (even though she makes decisions based on emotions at times).
Now that you mention it; it's true that Kanda never says anything about the curse again... I wonder what the context of his dislike towards cursed people was. Maybe it was just a convenient excuse for being hostile...
π: 0 β©: 1
<= Prev | | Next =>