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#apulia #arms #calabria #coat #conquest #duchy #fictional #heraldry #italy #kingdom #naples #norman #sicily #wappen #althistory #heraldik #fiktiv
Published: 2018-03-13 23:23:14 +0000 UTC; Views: 14551; Favourites: 94; Downloads: 75
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So, little known fact of history, but before the Normans under William the Conquerer landed on the shores of Great Britain, another, less prominent family of Norman nobles, the Hautvilles, started to conquer Southern Italy in the early 11th century and were quite successful at it until the last of their kings, William II. did not marry during his reign, therefor produced no offspring and appointed an heir. This heir was his neice, Constance, who was also married to the Hohenstaufern Holy Roman Emperor. Well, turns out the Norman nobility in Italy didn't quite like the idea of being ruled over by a woman, one married to a German Emperor no less (during that time the role of the Holy Roman Emperor in Italy was a very touchy subject - if fighting constant civil wars can be called "touchy"), and therefor tried to contest her right to the throne, leading to the Hohenstaufern Emperor to invade Sicily (which by this point basicaly was all of the future Kingdom of the Two Sicilies plus Malta and Tunesia) and take it over. I asked myself the question: What if that never happened? At the time of his death, William II. ruled over a very efficiently centralized and rich country, both culturaly and economicaly. I firmly believe that, succession crisis aside, Norman Sicily would have had a very good chance of surviving until modern days. And at that point - as you do - i asked: How would that look like in terms of arms and flags?Well, here you go. With the flag I went with a kind of Normano-British "cross of St. XYZ" style (in this case it's the fictional "Cross of St. Michael", a saint/archangel I chose because he features prominently in Byzantine and norman chruches in Southern Italy and because he was featured on Norman Italian coins). For the same reason their national order of knighthood is the Order of the Flaming Sword (the flaming sword being a feature of the Archangel Michael). Since Norman Sicily was very centralized, I chose different versions of the arms of Norman Kings for the quartered national arms. And with the crown, I got a little creative. I wanted to go for a strange mixture of classical European and Byzantine, Catholic and Orthodox styles, since those cultures both existed side by side in Norman Italy and influenced the local culture at that time to a great degree. I don't know if I pulled that objective off, but I like the crown nontheless. The motto Servire Nescit (I guess one could translate that as "Serving no one") was the motto of the County of Apulia and Calabria, the Norman precursor state to the Kingdom of Sicily.
Enjoy!
Elements: Taken from wikimedia commons.
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Comments: 18
1habeuscorpus1 [2022-02-24 05:05:04 +0000 UTC]
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Emilion-3 [2021-06-25 19:57:28 +0000 UTC]
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kosmas-j [2018-08-01 23:32:38 +0000 UTC]
If you use a Nordic cross, it becomes Finland's flag
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TiltschMaster In reply to kosmas-j [2018-08-02 16:19:29 +0000 UTC]
Yes, I know Only in this timeline, this would have come hundreds of years before that of Finland
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Al3ssio97 [2018-05-11 22:11:42 +0000 UTC]
Very nice CoA and flag, but im a bit perplex about the flag, for me they would use this model of flag but with red in the cross and gold in the field or the OTL Sicilian flag without Triskelion.Β
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TiltschMaster In reply to Al3ssio97 [2018-05-12 18:00:32 +0000 UTC]
The Sicilian Flag was the flag of a rebellion against a French-born King in the late 13th century, so that wouldn#t make much sense. As for the colour scheme of the cross-flag: Why exactly? Although I kind of made the Cross of St. Michael up, the blue/white colour scheme is actualy used for St. Michael in 16th century French tapestry (at least accodring to google).
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Al3ssio97 In reply to TiltschMaster [2018-05-12 19:00:29 +0000 UTC]
Why Red and Gold was color of the coat of arms of some members of the Hauteville and why the red rapresent Palermo and the gold Messina.Β
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TiltschMaster In reply to Al3ssio97 [2018-05-12 19:40:52 +0000 UTC]
Hmm, interesting thought.
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Al3ssio97 In reply to TiltschMaster [2018-05-29 22:05:34 +0000 UTC]
Yeah and is possible thst they create this flag but with red and gold or the otl sicilian flag.
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Libra1010 [2018-03-17 16:16:07 +0000 UTC]
Β One likes what I see - the motto is especially catchy! - though if you're looking for a variation on St Michael's cross I did a little research and came across an alternate vision of that escutcheon and will post it below for your consideration.
Β It certainly amuses me to imagine at least one professional flag maker combining the design of this cross with the blue-on-white colours of the flag above once the flag of Finland came along to confuse things! (though it may work better in white on blue).
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Elendil85 [2018-03-17 09:01:55 +0000 UTC]
Well, this is just... amazing! I like the shield, with the two versions of the lion bore by thekings and counts of sicily, and I love the order, the crown on the other hand is strange, but still beautiful
will you go further on this project? I'd like to see more of itΒ
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TiltschMaster In reply to Elendil85 [2018-03-17 14:09:20 +0000 UTC]
I didn't plan to. There isn't that much I can do with it. Currently I am working on something else :/ But I'm glad you like it
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Elendil85 In reply to TiltschMaster [2018-03-18 00:27:26 +0000 UTC]
Well, I'd like to see the collar of the order separated from the rest, for example, but surely there isn't any much to do about this
On the other hand, what about, next to this southern kingdom, a northern kingdom of the Lombards? (or longobards? How do you say it in English?) And maybe, later in history, something like the act of union between them, as with England and Scotland?
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TiltschMaster In reply to Elendil85 [2018-03-18 09:44:13 +0000 UTC]
I don't think the Lombards would survive. I think the North would end up Italian just like it has in OTL
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TiltschMaster In reply to Aleksandr-2 [2018-03-16 18:36:35 +0000 UTC]
No problem at all. If you want to read up on it, google "Norman Conquest of Southern Italy", the Wikipedia article on it is actualy quit good
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Aleksandr-2 [2018-03-15 20:39:47 +0000 UTC]
Very interesting idea but what is the origin of the supporting red lions another question I have is were the hautvillesΒ Cristian.Β
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TiltschMaster In reply to Aleksandr-2 [2018-03-16 16:00:13 +0000 UTC]
a) The red lion was the personal coat of arms of Robert Guiscard, the Hauteville-Norman Count of Apulia and Calabria who was raised to Duke by Pope Nicholas II. in 1059. (by the way, the black lion in the coat of arms is also based on a previous Hauteville monarch, namely Roger I. of Sicily). And b): Yes, the Hautevilles were Christians, Catholics to be more specific.Β
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