HOME | DD
PM-James — RVM Mewtwo vs Mega Charizard X
#battle #can #catch #cave #cerulean #charizard #comic #dragon #fight #me #mega #mewtwo #pokemon #psychic #red #rvm #type #you #cmyc #x #vs
Published: 2016-08-18 05:23:00 +0000 UTC; Views: 3586; Favourites: 29; Downloads: 2
Redirect to original
Description
So now that these two have sized each other up, time to throw down. The final battle of Cerulean Cave begins. Really hope you guys like this battle, hope it is worth the wait. Like the page before, this was very involved and fun to do, lots of effects and attacks to be seen. I really enjoyed working on this one and hope it shows. Not to much else to say about it, think it speaks for itself. Hope you enjoy!Red's Journal: Dragon Types
Lance was known as the Dragon master. After achieving my goal of becoming Pokemon League Champion, I went to Lance to ask him about the Pokemon he used, Dragonite specifically. I had seen Dragonair and Dratini before but they were owned by other people. These were the first examples of Dragonite I had ever seen and wanted to know if he could help me get one. Lance became a big help to me in my journey to complete the pokedex, he knew lots of amazing hard to reach places. Getting me a Dratini was a major goal of his. He taught me a lot about this rare Pokemon and it's habits. One day at the Safari zone, I found one. It was a wonderful moment, I couldn't wait to learn about it and... it ran away. So I searched for another one... and it also ran away.
Eventually I did capture one and got to raise it. Dratini was a joy to use, it was very capable and had lots of potential. As did it's other forms, Dragonair and Dragonite. Beyond these three examples, I wouldn't get to try out any other Dragon types till I ventured into Johto, where Clair showed me Kingdra. Latter Charizard mega evolved and became a dragon type. I noticed a tend, they were always very powerful Pokemon, not only did they usually have good offensive presence but due to them resisting many common types like fire and water, they also were usually bold and fearless. I was curious why the normal form for Charizard wasn't Dragon type, although he also sported similar aggression and fearless. I think it stems from the energy they harness more so than anything else. Charizard utilized fire and flying powers over any others. Charizard being a better flyer than Mega X but not nearly as powerful. Whereas it's Mega form sacrificed it's flying abilities to gain draconic ones. Just a theory for right now.
Next part: , Previous part: , First part:
Related content
Comments: 61
Well the exact purpose of the second spine has never been stated so I'd leave it up to individual interpretation more than anything else. For me, it makes sense for it to have a vertebrae, Mewtwo is a Mammal based character, so he should be a Vertebrate and in this story, the spine was added to ensure the clone would survive the development cycle out of fear increasing the psychic powers to the level they did would be to much for a developing mind to handle and essentially lobotomize itself. So adding additional support to it in the form of a vertebrae to ensure it had structural support makes sense to me.
If it's a flexibility concern, the spine could be made of cartridge or a material with similar properties, that make it light weight and very flexible, allowing plenty of free movement while still being made of something tough enough to give structural support.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Yeah, i read that bit in your comics, it's definitely an interesting idea, though
i'm sure a spare spinal chord would work just as well. I would imagine that
the use of psychic energy affects mewtwo's nervous system in some way, and
so perhaps the extra spinal chord was added to help his nervous system deal
with the strain of mewtwos formidable psychic powers. The fact that you specifically
stated that the increase in psychic energy could've (and perhaps did for failed clones)
lobotomized mewtwo supports this, as that would infer that the strain of his newfound
powers could damage his nervous system and brain.
I don't doubt that there is something there to give added structural support (and protection
of the nerve fibers as well), but, unless it's segmented in some way, bone doesn't seem to
be flexible enough to allow the range of movement of mewtwo's head that we've seen in game
and in the anime. Plus, official artwork shows the "second spine" as more of a smooth tube,
kind of like a pipe. So cartilage seems like our best match here.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Yeah more or less that was the idea.
Well cartilage is a possibility and he was engineered in a lab, so there's always the possibility of some kind of better synthetic material as well.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
True enough.
So, what are your thoughts on mewtwo's mega evolutions?
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
I never had a problem with them, most of my issues are little things like the feet are weird on both of them, that sort of thing. I prefer Mega Y, more unique looking and has more options as well. Overall though I think the normal form is better, he looks better and can hold any item you want. Mewtwo is already a powerhouse with monstrous speed and I find he doesn't usually need either of them even when fighting mega evolved Pokemon himself. Heck in some cases, he does worse. I've had the normal form defeat Mega Rayquaza in a one on one several times but I've never once managed to beat Mega Rayquaza with Mega Mewtwo (either of them) in a one on one.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Thats actually quite the feat since mega rayquaza dethroned mewtwo from being the most powerful pokemon for the second time.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Second time?
Well a lot of people assume that because Mega Mewtwo loses to Mega Rayquaza, than the normal form stands no chance. However the normal form has higher defense than Mega Y does (Dragon ascent is a physical move, so it tears Mega Y apart) and Mega X becomes fighting type (Dragon Ascent happen to be flying type, so it's a super effective STAB in that case). If Rayqauza has a life orb, the two have 0 chance of surviving Dragon ascent and without the stat drop, Ice beam from Mega Y isn't enough to KO Mega Rayquaza. Mega Y can survive the hit if it uses Barrier. With a life orb, it does about 140 damage at level 50, leaving Mewtwo with about 30 HP. Mega Y can then KO Rayquaza with an ice beam or psystrike due to the defense drop however Rayquaza always has Extreme speed, which does about 60 damage with the life orb. So Mega Y always falls there. It could potentially defeat Mega Rayquaza if he doesn't have an item (or a useful one for the situation, like an assault vest wont stop Psystrike from KOing Rayquaza) but it's unlikely for that to be the case.
Normal Mewtwo though has more defense than Mega Y does and isn't weak to Dragon Ascent. He can survive a perfect Attack Dragon ascent with a life orb boost, taking about 110 damage on average. After that Extreme speed with perfect attack and life orb should do about 45 damage. Mewtwo has 180 HP roughly, so he should survive with 25 HP left, about 14% HP. That mean he could then use a life orb boosted Psystrike safely. After the defense drop from Dragon ascent, Psystrike without the nature in Sp.Attack should do about 205 damage. Rayquaza will have abut 180 HP, so even the random variable can't do anything there (minimum damage being 185 and max being 220). So with a life orb, Mewtwo wins that way. Without one, Mewtwo can still win by using Ice beam, ice beam should do an average of 188 damage without the nature in Special attack, so unless the random variable is generous, Mewtwo will still win there. Rayqauaza could have other items instead of a life orb though, so quick sum up of those too.
Choice band- With that, after barrier Mewtwo takes about 125 damage on average, 140 max. Still not enough to KO Mewtwo and Rayquaza will be locked into Dragon ascent, so he can't use Extreme speed. Mewtwo will go first and can use a life orb assisted Psystrike to deal more than enough damage to KO Rayquaza.
Assualt vest- If Mewtwo tries to use ice beam, then this will work but if Mewtwo does the life orb Psystrike, then that will hit for physical damage, Assualt vest wont do anything to stop that.
Choice Scarf- This is Rayquaza's best shot at winning because if Mewtwo barriers, than he will not be able to attack on the following turn. However, with no barrier boost, Dragon ascent will do a maximum of 183 damage. So unless the random variable is incredibly unfair to Mewtwo, Mewtwo will survive and can proceed to win with Ice beam or the boosted psystrike (Life orb will result in Mewtwo fainting after KOing Rayquaza though most of the time, there is a chance of Mewtwo surviving the life orb damage but the random variable has to be pretty generous for that to happen). So if Mewtwo doesn't barrier and goes offensive, he has a pretty good shot of being the winner in this scenario too.
So yeah, it's weird but normal Mewtwo has much better chance of defeating Mega Raquaza than his mega forms do. If he does mega evolve, the only way for him to win would be to Mega evolve after the Dragon ascent turn, otherwise Mega Y takes to much damage to be reliable (even with barrier) and Mega X is weak to Dragon ascent and has 0 chance of surviving it. You wouldn't think 20 base defense would make such a difference, but it does.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Neato.
And yes, second time. Mewtwo was dethroned from his status as most powerful by arceus in gen 4, he briefly regained his
throne when his megas were introduced, only to lose it again halfway through gen six when mega rayquaza debuted.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Ah ok, thought you meant Rayquaza did it twice. I still consider Mewtwo the strongest Pokemon personally but there's certainly competition for that spot.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Either way, mewtwo is one of my favorites and will always be, even if he
isn't always the strongest.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Same, Mewtwo's always been one of my favorites if not my favorite.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Well, to be fair, he hasn't always been a favorite for me. When i first saw mewtwo in action in pokemon the first movie,
i thought he was cool, but that was about it. That being said, the more i learned about mewtwo, be it through gameplay
or story, the more i began to like him. And now he's one of my favorites.
On a side note, have you ever seen deathbattle?
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
I've always liked Mewtwo a lot.
ScrewAttacks? Yeah I've seen most of their videos. Usually enjoyable.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Well, i'm sure you've seen the deathbattle featuring mewtwo
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Yeah, I thought it could have been done better, Mewtwo should always be a versatile opponent and Shadow has lots of potential to let Mewtwo show that off but it didn't happen. I'm happy he won but I'd like to see Mewtwo show off what he can do more. I'm usually pretty dissapointed whenever they use Pokemon, They always insist on no TMs, HMs, EVs, natures, IV's, move tutor moves, etc under the claim that since it requires trainers to use those (Not IV's but whatever) that counts as outside help. I find that kind of ridiculous myself, to me that be like saying Goku can't use the Kamheameha because he had to learn it from Master Roshi first.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Wiz and Boomstick are right in their choice to not include TMs, HMs, etc, becuase
they are outside help. Your goku analogy kind of works but kind of not becuase
goku has known about the kamehameha since he was a kid, where as allowing the use
of TMs, HMs and the like would also be breaking the "fighters are not allowed to prepare"
rule.
Either way, i'm happy to see two of my favorite pokemon win their respective deathbattles.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
The Kamehamejha was taught to him by Master Roshi and he couldn't use it ar first. He had to practice it several times before he was able to use the move. He also didn't know how to use the Spirit Bomb (King Kai), Kaioken (King Kai), Solar flare (Tien), Destructo disk (Krillin) etc either. All of those moves had to be taught to him by other people as well. That didn't disqualify him from using any of those moves. If you're going to claim to "analyze all their weapons, armor and skills" than why exclude nearly their entire attack options?
I don't see how it's preparing for the fight either, if they happen to have a power that could be useful, why not at least let them have the option to use it? Again using Goku as an example, say we have Goku vs Doomsday. Doomsday is a pure evil being with no goals but to destroy and kill everything in it's wake. He is also nearly unkillable because of an ability where he can't be killed the same way twice. So it's unlikely Goku could kill him with energy beams like the Kamehameha or physical attacks like the Dragon fist since Doomsday has been hit with similar attacks before. Well Goku has the Spirit bomb, a move that draws energy from several different sources across the universe and specifically targets and destroys evil beings. Doomsday is like Kid Buu, he kills and destroys mindlessly and with no remorse, and since the bomb is made of energy from literally everything, there's bound to be energy in there that Doomsday isn't immune to and the bomb specifically destroys evil beings entirely, so here will be nothing left of him to regenerate either. There's also no evidence Doomsday could raise his power level to save himself like Frieza did (who was almost killed by the bomb and would have been if not for that ability). Thus the bomb should kill him. In other words, Goku has a technique that happens to allow him to get around Doomsday's defenses and destroy him. No preparation, he just happens to have a move that can do that. However Goku only knows that technique because it was taught to him by King Kai and there's no evidence he would be able to use the technique without King Kai's teachings. So should he not be allowed to use the Spirit bomb despite Goku having access to the move?
To highlight what a handicap it is, Mew is made powerful by giving it access to nearly every move in the game via TMs, HMs, and move tutor moves, without that it's pretty helpless. In the games, Mew is known for it's wild card nature, you never know what moves it might have. Mew is one of the most versatile Pokemon in the entire game as a result, able to perform several different rolls. It's Pokedex entry even says it can learn nearly any move. However the way they do it, it's enormous move pool plummets to 13 attacks, it only has 4 reliable damage moves (3 if we throw out pound), no recovery options at all, several moves that would either be entirely useless or only situation ally helpful (like Metronome, reflect type and baton pass) etc. You'd effectively make one of the most versatile Pokemon in the entire game into one of the most helpless for no good reason.
Yeah, I was happy about that too.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Look, deathbattle has a set of rules that each conestant has to follow. You can read them all here: tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php…
To put it simply, TMs, HMs, and other trainer influences aren't allowed specifically for balance reasons (unless otherwise stated).
Giving a pokemon TMs and HMs in a battle where no trainer is present is like giving one side extra weapons while not extening
the same courtesy to the otherside, see the issue? As an examle, in the recent Lucario vs Renamon battle, Lucario was barred
from using mega evolution due to the fact that he would need a trainer to do it, unlike mewtwo. So, to keep things balanced
they ALSO barred renamon from digivolving. Get the picture?
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
No because Mega evolution is a different boat to TMs. I agree they shouldn't use Mega forms unless the trainer is present because Mega Evolution can't be done without the trainer being present, just like how Renamon can't digivolve without Riley being present. Doesn't matter if Lucario knows about the form, has used the form previously, has the stone in hand, etc. It's like in vegeta vs Shadow, Vegeta has used Super Saiyan 4 before but he wasn't allowed to use that form because the only way he achieved that form was from help from a machine Bulma created and he never was able to use the form without the machine. Ergo he can't do it himself, so no megas makes sense. However TMs and HMs are moves taught to them previously. If Lucario knows Shadow ball (a TM only move) he can use it without the trainer being there as demonstrated if you trade the Pokemon to another game. If the new player doesn't have enough badges, the Pokemon wont obey you and may do several other things. One of which is use a random move, such as the TM move. Ergo they can use the move freely without being told to. The trainer isn't required anymore. Ergo it's just like Goku with the Spirit Bomb, it may have been impossible for him to learn the move without his teacher, but now that he has the teacher isn't needed anymore. Ergo it's free game. TMs and HMs are just additional attacks that the Pokemon can learn, that's it.
If anything it's the total opposite of giving them extra weapons. It's stripping them of nearly their entire arsenal and making them fight with their bare essentials. meanwhile the other guy gets to use all their stuff. It's not unfair at all, if the Pokemon can learn a move that could help, they should be able to use it. Just because they could use a move on them doesn't mean they will though. One of the Deathbattles own rules ensures that, they don't get prior knowledge of the opponent. That solve the problem right there. Say we have Sylveon vs Venom (weird match up but just say that's what it is). Venom is vulnerable to sound and fire, Sylveon learns three attacks it could use, Hidden power fire (TM, fire) Echoed voice (TM, sound attack) and Disarming voice (Level up, sound). Well to begin with, Hidden power has a 1/16 chance of being fire type. So it will statistically not be fire type. On top of that, Sylveon's hidden power is usually ground to deal with poison and steel types. Ergo the likelihood of it being fire type here is very tiny, so we can throw that out. Disarming voice is a weak attack, it's only real appeal is it doesn't miss. Sylveon learns much stronger Fairy type moves. So there's no reason it would throw out disarming voice when it has access to Moon blast instead. Even if she did use Disarming voice (maybe to get around Venom's speed), she'd probably assume that the reason he took extra damage from it was he's weak to Fairy moves, not sound, ergo would still end up resorting to Moon blast anyway and be left perplexed why he's not taking extra damage from Moon blast. Echoed Voice does greater and greater damage every time it gets used, so it might be a serious problem for Venom than given he's weak to sound and it's constantly getting stronger. however Sylveon would have no way of knowing that move would be strong against him especially since it's a normal type move, which isn't super effective to anything. So there's no reason she'd believe it would be. so why would she use it? The only reason I can think of is Venom is a big powerful guy that take lots of stopping power. Well in that case she'd resort to Hyper beam than, a normal type powerhouse beam with lots of stopping power. There's no reason she would rely on Echoed Voice, no reason at all. Ergo Venom would likely defeat Sylveon despite the attacks that could pose a threat. Sylveon has no reason to use any them or any way of learning it should use them. So it wouldn't.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Actually it's not as much of a different boat as you claim. You see, for the most part, a pokemon CAN'T learn TM or HM based moves without
the aid of a trainer. In the same way a pokemon would need a trainer to mega evolve, a pokemon would need a trainer to use TMs and/or HMs,
otherwise it's not possible for them to know said moves unless they are learned naturally. Ergo, TMs and HMs, like mega evolution or digivolution,
fall firmly in the outside help category.
Your example with sylveon vs venom is good, but it's breaking the rules of deathbattle, the moves you chose seem to be purposely chosen to
exploit venom's weaknesses, unfortunately, deathbattle opponents are NOT allowed to prepare for battles ahead of time, NOR are they allowed
knowledge of their opponents powers or weaknesses. So, while that moveset would be great for countering venom, sylveon would never get
to use it, because sylveon wouldn't have that knowledge. Which is another reason that, again, unless stated, TMs and HMs are not allowed,
because deathbattle contestants are NOT allowed to plan ahead.
Another rule that prevents TMs and HMs from being used unless otherwise stated is that deathbattle will NOT use every weapon a contestant has
in it's analysis, in the case of pokemon, they aren't going to use the entire movelist, that includes TMs. When it comes to weapons, DB contestants
are only given what they are most commonly seen using or what is most iconic.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
It is a completely different boat. It has the exact same relation as Goku with the Spirit bomb and SSJ4 Vegeta.
In GT, Vegeta never achieved the SSJ4 transformation, the only way he was able to become a SSJ4 was with help from Bulma and a machine. Without that machine, Vegeta couldn't achieve the form. The Mega forms for Pokemon are exactly like that, the Pokemon can't achieve the form without the trainer being present. They can't use the form later, they can't summon it from some other source, they can't train hard enough to achieve it on their own, etc. There's no way for a Pokemon (except Mewtwo for some reason) to achieve the Mega form without a trainer being present. If they want to mega evolve, the trainer has to be their every single time.
During tyhe Saiyan Saga of DBZ, Goku trained under King Kai for a year in preparation for the Saiyan invasion of earth. Under this training, he was able to master the Spirit Bomb and the Kaio-ken techniques. There was no evidence he could use these techniques without this training and teaching. Now though, he needs no assistance to use Kaio-ken or the Spirit Bomb. He can use both techniques freely. TMs are not different at all from that. All they are is a Pokemon learning a technique from a human. After the human teaches it to them, they can use the move freely without the human or the TM. It is a move they have learned, therefore, they know how to use it. So it should be fair game.
The Venom analogy was supposed to show that there's nothing broken or unfair about allowing TMs. Sylveon had a way to beat Venom but had no reasonable way of knowing that move would be more effective quickly. It would have to learn that during the fight, that's fair. Venom's high speed and physical strength against Sylveon's low speed and low defense mean Venom could exploit Sylveon's weakness long before Sylveon could exploit Venom's. Therefore, even with the TM, Venom still wins. It's not unfair to Venom or gives Sylveon an edge it shouldn't have. It's a power Sylveon has but the rule that she can't have prior knowledge hurting her ability to realize the effectiveness of the move.
As for analysis, I can literally look up Sylveon's entire move pool just by googling Sylveon. Bulbapedia alone has every move Sylveon can learn, pages describing how the moves work and additional pages explaining all the game mechanics that may come up. So if I am running the Venom fight, all I have to do is look up Sylveon on Bulbapedia, then go, "Ok Venom is weak to fire and sound. Does Sylveon have any fire or sound moves?" Well a Crtl F check for fire shows not a single fire type move on Sylveon's page. So that's out. Then I go, well how about sound. There's no sound type but can Pokemon use sound based moves? type it in to Bulbapedia's search engine and it will confirm they can and give you an alphabetical ordered list of all the moves that are sound based. See if Sylveon has any, record them and what they do. Then look through Sylveon's other moves and see if there's any that seem useful or ones Sylveon is known for having, such as Moon blast. Then check to see SYlveon's stats, see how it stacks up to other Pokemon. Again, Bulbapedia even has a page showing the average stat as well. I can literally look up anything I want to know right there. Bulbapedia isn't even the only sight. If you're afraid of bias or incorrect information, then there's also Seribii, Smogon, Pokemon calculators, etc that will show you this too. Still not convinced, pick up the game and see for yourself. All this info is readilly available. You can find out what Sylveon can do, what it can't do, what it's best moves are, what it's weaknesses are, if it can exploit any of it's opponent's weaknesses, etc. Literally all that is easy to find and free to find as well. Just find everything you think is relevant to the fight and roll with it.
Again, in my analysis, Venom wins and I am letting Sylveon use literally everything it has. It's not unfair at all as long as the rule Sylveon can't know Venom's weakness at the start of the fight is enforced, Venom will win the fight.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
That breaks yet another rule. As i just said, deathbattle doesn't use literally everything a fighter has at his/her/its disposal,
only what he, she, or it most commonly uses or what is most iconic.
Also, again, yes, it is the same boat. TMs and HMs are literal machines (well, disks, but you get the idea) that INSTANTLY teach
pokemon new moves, they are EQUIPMENT that can only be used by TRAINERS. That isn't even close to being the same thing as
goku learning the kamehameha or any other of his techniques.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
They don't have to, all you got to do is create a checklist and go through it. Powers, speed, durability, moves of interest, moves that exploit the enemies weaknesses, the character's weaknesses, do the same for the enemy, who seems like the most likely winner and why? As for iconic, many TM moves are iconic to Pokemon. Mewtwo is often times shown using Shadow ball. That's a TM only move. Charizard uses Fire blast all the time yet that's a TM only move, Charizard is also known for Seismic Toss. Not only is that a TM only move but Charizard can't learn it anymore to boot.
The fact they're equipment doesn't matter, as long as they're not used during the fight itself. If I teach Charizard Fire blast, the TM plays 0 roll anymore. Charizard can use fire blast without the TM. It's the exact same thing to a teacher teaching somebody a technique. If the student can do the technique without the teacher, than it is their technique. How the teacher taught it to them, who the teacher is in relation to them, how long it took them to learn it and whether equipment is involved or not in the teaching process shouldn't matter. when you're done, if Charizard can fire off a Fire blast without help, than it's fair game. So can Charizard do it without being ordered too? Well trade Charizard over to a game with a trainer who doesn't have enough badges to train him. Charizard will eventually fire off a Fire blast without you telling it to. Therefore yes it can use the move freely and there is no arguing that. TMs are 100% valid. You can argue against egg moves, hidden abilities, held items, mega forms, etc all of which I would agree aren't allowed but Level up moves, TMs, HMs, EVs, IVs, natures, and move tutor moves are not arguable in my eyes. Every one of those things should be acceptable. The fact a trainer is needed to train them prior shouldn't make any difference.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Charizard having TM moves was an exception due to the presence of red, he didn't have any such moves during the battle royale between charizard,
blastoise, and venusaur. And, again, moves that exploit weaknesses wouldn't be allowed according to deathbattles rules, under the rule that states that
fighters are NOT allowed to know of eachothers abilities or weaknesses. So, any info about moves that would exploit weaknesses is pretty much useless.
Actually it does matter, outside of the PMD universe, Pokemon CANNOT use TMs or HMs without a trainer, it's just like the example of vegeta and ssj4,
yes it was a form he could attain, but only with outside help. TMs and HMs are just the same. They are equipment designed to teach a pokemon a move
without needing them to level up or gain experience, and, again, they are equipment that CANNOT BE USED without the help of a trainer. The flaw with
your charizard example is that you still need the TM to teach charizard the move in the first place, you can't teach a pokemon a move from a TM without
the TM, unless the move is naturally learned, but thats a different story.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
The Battle Royale I give a pass because all of them were forced to follow that rule. I don't agree with it but if everybody was forced to follow that rule, than fine.
How does having a move mean they know it will work on them? Again with my Venom vs Sylveon fight, just because Sylveon has a sound based move doesn't mean she knows Venom is vulnerable to it. She has to figure that out during the fight and that leaves Venom plenty of time to figure out her weakness as well. That is completely fair in my eyes.
It doesn't, not in the slightest. It's different from Vegeta because after he reverted back he could not use the SSJ4 transformation. Without Bulma it was impossible, there was no situation where Vegeta could use SSJ4 without Bulmas help. After I teach Fire Blast to Charizard, he can use it. Doesn't matter if he faints, doesn't matter if I destroy the TM, doesn't matter if I trade him to a trainer that never had the TM, etc. If Charizard is taught Fire Blast, he knows it forever unless I force him to forget it. They also only teach a Pokemon the move if they are able to or in other words if they can use the attack. If they can't it will flat out say, not able to learn on it. That kills the entire argument right there. That proves that TMs are not teaching them moves they can't ordinarily learn, they are teaching them moves they are able to learn. It just teaches it to them faster. If they are not able to learn the move, than a TM of that move is useless. The master using a tool to teach the student doesn't matter, if the student learns the technique and can use it by them self, you can't argue they shouldn't be allowed to use the move. Vegeta never was able to turn SSJ4, that is something he can not do. Charizard can learn Fire Blast, all he needs is a teacher to teach it to him. After that he can use it freely. So it's not like SSJ4 Vegeta. It is like Goku, who couldn't use Kaioken but was able to learn it and proceeded to do so. How they learned the technique shouldn't matter at all. What should matter is when they're done learning it, can they do it by them-self. In Goku's case, yes; in Vegeta's case, no; in Charizard's case, yes. Therefore, it is fair.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Okay, yes, i will acknowledge that its fair to give sylveon those moves in that case.
Yes, and therein lies the problem that you keep ignoring, you still have to teach your
charizard that move using the TM in the first place, which implies outside aid because
pokemon cannot use TMs on their own. It doesn't matter if charizard forgets the move
later or not, he can't use the move if he hasn't learned it in the first place.
You seem to have missed my point. The reason goku learning the kamehameha is different
from using a TM to teach a pokemon a move is because the pokemon NEEDS the TM to learn
the move in the first place. Goku on the other hand didn't need any equipment to learn the
kamehameha, in fact, goku learning the kamehameha is much more similar to a pokemon
naturally learning a move as it levels up, rather than artificially "learning" the move from a TM
or HM.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
The reason I'm ignoring that is because it doesn't matter. How they learned the technique doesn't make any difference. What matters is if they can use it without aid after the fact. They can, therefore they should be valid.
Ok so if Outside aid applies to TMs, then why did Mewtwo get to use them? He got to use Shadow ball and Hyper beam according to the briefing in Mewtwo vs Shadow, both of those moves are TM only moves.
Well it's pretty clear this is going to boil down to an agree to disagree
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Once again you missed the point, it DOES matter how the technique is learned, because in battles without the trainer
there is no way for the pokemon to have learned moves from TMs or HMs, It dosen't matter if they can use the moves
without aid, because they need outside help to learn the moves in the first place.
I believe the use of shadow ball and hyperbeam (though i don't recall him actually using either in the foght) is an exception,
much like how mewtwo was given mega evolution despite lacking a trainer. Simple.
Probably.
👍: 0 ⏩: 2
We've gotten on a giant tangent though, long story short, I enjoy Death Battle but I'm usually underwhelmed when they use Pokemon. I don't think it's fair but in the end it doesn't really matter, it's their show so if that's how they want to do it, that's there decision on the matter.
Getting back to the original question. Most of the DB I like are ones like Godzilla vs Gamera, ones with an enjoyable fight in them. I don't really care that much about who wins most of the time and even if I do, if the fight is enjoyable I don't really care if the guy I like loses. Superman vs Goku is probably the best example of that, I prefer Goku a lot more but the fight was enjoyable, so that's all that really matters to me.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Thats good, its more than can be said for some people.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
I think a lot of it is people associate things they like with themselves, that those things define them. So they treat it as a part of them-self and any attack on that thing is an attack on them and they must defend it. So fights like that usually become personal when they really shouldn't be.
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
The problem with that is than why do characters like Shadow get to use their Super forms then? That's not something he normally can do and it requites 7 Chaos emeralds to use, items that they usually have to spend the entire game searching for. Doesn't collecting the 7 emeralds count as preparing for the battle? Those things aren't something Shadow usually has, maybe one of them so he can use Chaos Control but not all 7. Yet he always has them or at least gets access to them during the fight somehow. heck in Vegeta vs Shadow, he literally just started out with them. So Charizard learning Fire Blast from a trainer prior to the battle, not fair, but Shadow just having the 7 chaos emeralds ready to go is fair? It's not consistent.
Also I'm not missing the point, the problem with your point is it ignores the deep dark problem. It doesn't matter. You think it does, but it absolutely doesn't. It absolutely does not matter who they learned it from, where they learned it, when they learned it, why they learned it, or how they learned it. What matters is that they are capable of learning it, do so and can utilize it without help. If you absolutely must have a trainer teach it to them, then you can use literally any of the cannon characters. They all had the goal of completing the Pokedex and caught legendary Pokemon to boot. Ergo if you must come up with an origin of where they got TM moves, there you go. Literally any of the protagonists could do it. Red, Gold, Brendan, May, etc. All of their actions are cannon to the series. So how does Lugia have Thunderbolt. Well gold captured Lugia and Gold has TMs, so that explains it right there. It's completely reasonable, it can be tested by performing it yourself in the games, there's nothing proving it didn't happen whatsoever and we get away from the they need a trainer argument. I suppose the argument will be, we never saw him do that! Well then that gets into my next argument...
Mewtwo had Shadow ball in Pokemon the First movie and could mega evolve in the Genesect film. Where did he get those abilities? it's an exception, a trainer did it at some point or he got it off screen apparently doesn't fly. So where did he get it? If you're going to claim it's an exception, than I want a reason you're making the exception.
Like said, this argument wont go anywhere clearly.
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
God Dammit Fuji! Why'd you have to make him THIS Freakin Powerful! 0_0
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
"we dreamed of creating the world's strongest Pokemon, and we succeeded."
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Okay Smart Alex! We don't need lines from the best PKMN movie ever to prove a point! Gawd... :I
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
to every thing not named darkrai or yveltal.
to everything else. might as well be invincable.......
to bad those two aren't in the story.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Oh I don't know, I'd say Mewtwo give anybody a run for their money.
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
His second spine is a sensitive spot, apparently.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Yeah, he doesn't like it touched in this, got pretty low tolerance for that.
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
Mewtwo has had a blatant disregard for the fourth wall as of now
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Neither of them care about the borders.
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
Well if anime has thought me anythng when the villain get's too cocky and says their unbeatable in some way, their going to lose badly
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
True but Mewtwo is quite a bit different from most of the villains in those scenarios. They usually stall to enjoy the beating they're giving, gloat about victory before actually getting it, show off in general, stuff like that. Mewtwo isn't interested in any of those things. He's interested in upholding his word, that being to defeat Red's entire team. He also admitted that he feared losing to Red, so he's not on the opinion he can't lose this by this point. So if the chance to kill Charizard becomes available, he'll take it.
Although as shown earlier, Charizard is very protective of Red too... so killing Mewtwo himself isn't off the table if need be either.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Well either way it's safe to say this battle is going to end with a bang. Oh and speaking of which today we get to see if ash finally wins a league, personally i hope he wins just to break the memes of him being a bad trainer.
Oh and I have to ask there are some rumors that Umbreon and Espeon will get new forms in alola which is similar to ash greninja. If it's true do you think we might get to see them in your other comics
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
| Next =>