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wingsofwrath — RNAS Armoured Train

Published: 2013-11-18 04:52:40 +0000 UTC; Views: 42931; Favourites: 615; Downloads: 410
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Description This is a British Armoured Train design for Shadowless, based on real life armoured trains operated by the RNAS (Royal Naval Air Service, the air arm of the Royal Navy) in Belgium during the early part of WW1.
Most of the cars are either copies of real life examples from the 1890s or based upon them and modified as the story requires.
One such example is the "Ordnance BL 20 inch Railway Howitzer", which is an enlarged mash-up of the real life 1918 "Ordnance BL 18 inch howitzer on truck, railway" and the 1915 " Ordnance BL 12 inch Gun Mk IX".

Since this drawing is primarily meant as reference for the comic, I only drew the different type of cars and not the way they fit into the completed convoy. In operation, the actual car order would be: 1_2_3_4_8_9_6_5_5g_5g_10_7, where "5g" is a "gunpowder van" , similar to the general goods van but with the sides made out of steel plate instead of wood (for obvious reasons).

EDIT, 22.03.17: I'm slightly revising the weight calculations and the composition of the convoy, because it appears that, while they were "quick and dirty", they were "too dirty" - for one, I misread the weight of the locomotive, which did NOT include the tender. Also, I had the barrel and breech at 85 tons and the whole howitzer at 115 because I was extrapolating from the 18 inch gun I used as inspiration, but all actuality the barrel and breech alone would weigh in 115 tons and the whole piece should be more like 215.
So here are the revised numbers:

The "Claud Hamilton" class (LNER Class D14 or GER S46) 4-4-0 engine has a tractive effort of 76,040 N (17,095 lbf, if you prefer imperial measurements) and accounts talk of a Claud Hamilton setting a speed record pulling a 400t train 130.2 miles (129.5km) in 157 min 24 sec, which means an average speed of 49.63 mph (79.87 km/h).
Another source gives the typical train freight train composition for this era was 42 fully laden 10-ton two axle cars, totalling 420t.

Assuming the larger weight for a slight decrease in speed and adding the weight of the locomotive and tender (52 and 39 t respectively) we get an average convoy weight this locomotive could pull "comfortably" of 514 gross tons (so including the weight of the train itself, or "tare").

As can be inferred from the above, the weight of the locomotive itself is 52 tons normal and 105 after armouring with 8 -12 mm plate, the fully laden tender weighs in 39 tons normal and 45 armoured (not much armouring on the tender, for obvious reasons) while the weight of the armoured cars is 22 for the machine-gun car, 30 tons for the artillery cars and 12 for the two-axle command car.  The howitzer itself is 215 tons, of which 115 are in the barrel and breech itself.  The rest of the train cars are between 8 and 10t each because they are standard freight cars while the front wagon only weighs in 6.4 tons, because it's only loaded with some sandbags and a machine-gun.

Putting it all together (according to the train composition given in the description) we get a total train weight of 513.4 gross tons, which, as can be seen from the above figures, is exactly within the ballpark for the afore mentioned locomotive.
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Comments: 37

lgsimons [2023-09-18 23:54:38 +0000 UTC]

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JeanLucCaptain [2023-09-18 06:07:43 +0000 UTC]

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notchkiller [2019-01-08 04:25:43 +0000 UTC]

The railway gun reminds me of the German Krupp K5 railway guns

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JeanLucCaptain In reply to notchkiller [2023-09-18 06:40:36 +0000 UTC]

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skyraidernimrod2 [2018-02-20 11:28:09 +0000 UTC]

I've been a big fan of armoured trains since I received a book about them as a kid! These are some awesome designs! 

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abloodbrother [2017-03-21 08:45:53 +0000 UTC]

When the Germans want a gun a train they get a GUN on a train

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BenRG In reply to abloodbrother [2023-09-18 20:48:00 +0000 UTC]

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wingsofwrath In reply to abloodbrother [2017-03-22 12:41:06 +0000 UTC]

Small problem though - these are Brits...

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abloodbrother In reply to wingsofwrath [2017-03-22 14:53:50 +0000 UTC]

Far right Gustav rail gun

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wingsofwrath In reply to abloodbrother [2017-04-07 19:45:33 +0000 UTC]

Um... no.

The Germans were not the only ones to put guns on trains, and this one looks absolutely nothing like the "Schwerer Gustav", which actually looked like this.

You're probably thinking of several other German WW1 28cm railway gun designs known generically as "Bruno" which culminated in the WW2 Krupp 28cm Kanone 5 .

However, the gun in my drawing is neither of them, and, if you bothered to read the description, you would have learned it's actually a completely fictitious railway gun based on a couple of real world British WW1 designs.

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SteamRailwayCompany [2015-10-28 00:25:56 +0000 UTC]

There now, I'm sure the Claude Hamilton shan't have to worry about enemy fire scratching her beautiful paintwork!  

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ToastedAlmond98 [2015-07-13 23:11:35 +0000 UTC]

Very impressive, though I doubt that even the Claud Hamilton would have sufficient power to haul a train like that described.

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wingsofwrath In reply to ToastedAlmond98 [2015-07-15 22:30:47 +0000 UTC]

I did crunch the numbers and they fit.

I'm pasting my reply to someone else who raised the same question:

The "Claud Hamilton" class (LNER Class D14 or GER S46) 4-4-0 engine has a tractive effort of 76,040 N (17,095 lbf, if you prefer imperial measurements). Typical train freight train composition for this era was 42 fully laden 10-ton two axle cars for a total of 475 gross tons (so including the weight of the train itself, or "tare", not just of the freight being shipped) for the entire convoy, including locomotive.

As can be inferred from the above, the weight of the locomotive itself is 55 tons normal (including fully laden tender) and 95 after armouring with 12mm plate, while the weight of the armoured cars is 30 tons for the larger, bogie ones and 12 for the two-axle command car.  The howitzer itself is 115 tons, of which 85 are in the barrel and breech itself.  The rest of the train cars are between 8 and 10t each, because they are standard freight cars.

Putting it all together (according to the train composition given in the description) we get a total train weight of 362 gross tons, which, as can be seen from the above figures, is well in the capabilities of the afore mentioned steam engine.

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thekidthatyoudontkow In reply to wingsofwrath [2018-02-19 00:31:52 +0000 UTC]

you are a train pro are you ?

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wingsofwrath In reply to thekidthatyoudontkow [2018-06-26 12:46:49 +0000 UTC]

Actually, sort of. The real "train pro" is my dad, who is one of the foremost experts in early steam locomotion in Romania.


Because of that, while I'll never go as far to call myself a "pro", I've been on the footplate and in the roundhouse with a number of working steam locomotives, the oldest of which is No.43 "Calugareni", built by the Birkenhead Canada Works (Merseyside, England) in 1869. Incidentally, I helped make the first accurate plans of this particular locomotive, with the aim or reconstructing the original configuration (as it exists, the locomotive has been changed in 1925 and has a different tender, etc).

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thekidthatyoudontkow In reply to wingsofwrath [2018-06-27 15:52:43 +0000 UTC]

that alot of information . i just like train went i was small . specific amored train like the gustav . this make me remember my old pic wet i climb on top of a tanker car . i am only 14 btw . but your "information" is quiet interesting 

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realevilcorgi [2014-10-14 16:36:28 +0000 UTC]

Battle trains.
I am 100% okay with everything about this.

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waltsland [2014-06-25 20:24:42 +0000 UTC]

WELL DONE, JAP, GOOD FORM! I LOVE RALWAY STUFF AND I LOVE , I LOVE STEMIES.

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JDunk1971 [2014-06-08 23:54:47 +0000 UTC]

Its interesting that the Royal naval officer who designed the first armored train was then Captain John Fisher, who as First Sea Lord helped inspire the design of the HMS Deadnought.

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trainmanauxl1 [2014-05-09 02:48:29 +0000 UTC]

...and then they brought in the railgun...show offs.

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tracks147 [2014-03-16 17:55:43 +0000 UTC]

EPIC TRAIN BATTLE OF HISTORY

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Enrico1946 [2014-01-22 01:18:14 +0000 UTC]

I checked some of this on the Armored Trains Book recently now i see why it looked familiar, Good Job dude

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AoiWaffle0608 [2013-11-26 18:51:09 +0000 UTC]

ohhhhh I love you, you are awesome....

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Armored-Cross187 [2013-11-25 02:02:55 +0000 UTC]

Would this happen to be a Single train?


or just the parts of armored trains in the royal navy? 

Because I don't see that little steam engine pulling ALL OF THAT. you got to admit that railway gun is a MONSTER to move...

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wingsofwrath In reply to Armored-Cross187 [2013-11-25 10:46:21 +0000 UTC]

You are severely underestimating the capabilities of train engines. 

The "Claud Hamilton" class (LNER Class D14 or GER S46) 4-4-0 engine has a tractive effort of 76,040 N (17,095 lbf, if you prefer imperial measurements). Typical train freight train composition for this era was 42 fully laden 10-ton two axle cars for a total of 475 gross tons (so including the weight of the train itself, or "tare", not just of the freight being shipped) for the entire convoy, including locomotive.

As can be inferred from the above, the weight of the locomotive itself is 55 tons normal (including fully laden tender) and 95 after armouring with 12mm plate, while the weight of the armoured cars is 30 tons for the larger, bogie ones and 12 for the two-axle command car.  The howitzer itself is 115 tons, of which 85 are in the barrel and breech itself.  The rest of the train cars are between 8 and 10t each, because they are standard freight cars.

Putting it all together (according to the train composition given in the description) we get a total train weight of 362 gross tons, which, as you saw from the above figures, is well in the capabilities of the "little steam engine".

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Paddle-Steamer In reply to wingsofwrath [2015-03-24 02:29:03 +0000 UTC]

Indeed, many overestimate the power needed to pull a train, it's actually not that hard to pull something with wheels over a smooth surface like rails. Once it gets going from a standing stop it becomes significantly easier to keep it going, as the train's momentum will lean towards keeping it going. Indeed it's often far harder to stop a train than it is to get it going.

Likewise steam engines had a lot of torque while operating at lower RMPs, allowing them to get going from a stop fairly well, even with only two cylinders.


This is a neat armoured train concept while maintaining a degree of historically accuracy. I'm writing a AU WWI story and I intend to include a British armoured train and stumbled upon your picture while researching them. Certainly makes it easier to describe with a nice visualisation like this, as most of the historical photos are fairly limited in view.  

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cthelmax [2013-11-18 08:32:47 +0000 UTC]

Very nice ^^  The only think missing as far as I can see is an ammunition carriage for the 20" howitzer

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wingsofwrath In reply to cthelmax [2013-11-18 12:47:43 +0000 UTC]

Actually, unlike the French Army, for example, in the British one there never was a "dedicated" ammunition van for the big howitzers even in real life. Instead the shells were carried inside standard general goods vans (no.5 on the drawing and there are 4 in the convoy, but I only drew one to save on space) and the charges themselves inside special "gunpowder vans" (if available, of course) which look similar to the regular goods vans but their sides are clad in sheet metal and are painted black with a huge red "X" on the door (3 in the convoy).

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cthelmax In reply to wingsofwrath [2013-11-18 13:46:00 +0000 UTC]

That's interesting, I've got a book with a picture of a 12" Mark IX railway gun attached to an ammunition van; the van has doors in the an end so that ammo can be easily transferred to the narrow-gauge ammunition handling railway on the gun mount itself.

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wingsofwrath In reply to cthelmax [2013-11-18 14:13:01 +0000 UTC]

To be frank, I'm far from an expert on this subject since I only skimmed it (not particularly relevant to the comic, since we never get to see much of the actual firing cycle of the howitzer, it serves more as a MacGuffin to the story) but I do think the British never actually had a purpose built ammunition van like the French used for their howitzers. Depending on where that picture was taken it could either be a field mod of the normal goods van or even one of the French ones if during WW1.
Also, some goods vans (like the one I drew) already have end-on doors, so there is no point in constructing a specialised one where a normal would do.

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cthelmax In reply to wingsofwrath [2013-11-18 14:34:20 +0000 UTC]

Well, after some quick googling it appears that the picture in my book is a painting based off of upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia… , which in turn is based off upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia… , so it's hard to say how accurate the pic is.

As to the merits of constructing a dedicated van; I agree it seems a little excessive considering a standard goods van could do the job (Although cladding the outside in steel plate would probably be considered a sensible step for a carriage full of powder pulled by a steam locomotive...)

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wingsofwrath In reply to cthelmax [2013-11-19 13:15:21 +0000 UTC]

Hmm. The plot thickens.
It's interesting that the ammunition van in the picture uses bogies, so the design looks decidedly un-British, because most British rolling stock of the time had single axles.
On the other hand, after some intensive googling, I am now also aware of some designs built during WW1 for the War Department by the firms of "Robert Hudson" & "Rendel Palmer & Tritton" on the French "Decauville" narrow gauge military railway system and which did use bogies. Also, the original RNAS armoured train I patterned mine on had bogies as well, but that one was built on the continent using Belgian rolling stock.
So at this point, I really don't know - it might be that is indeed a British design I've never heard about (neither of the sources I could find mention anything like that, but who knows?) or else they're using a French ammunition van.

This is also interesting - turns out that there were also "regular" general goods vans that were manufactured out of steel plate on a steel frame (so not just "clad" as I initially surmised) and they look identical with the gunnpowder vans. At this point it's a toss-up on wherever the gunpowder vans were simply regular steel vans with locks on, or the others were unneeded gunpowder vans used for other things...

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cthelmax In reply to wingsofwrath [2013-11-19 16:45:33 +0000 UTC]

Interesting...  Sadly, I suspect that the only way to find out the truth would be to rummage through the archives of the Royal Artillery (assuming that the paperwork hasn't been lost over the intervening years).

Personally (and this is pure speculation on my part) I'd be inclined to say that the gunpowder vans were steel vans with locks and a paint scheme, since there are after all cargoes besides gunpowder that you would want to transport in fireproof carriages; however I have absolutely nothing to support this belief.

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wingsofwrath In reply to cthelmax [2013-11-19 18:11:15 +0000 UTC]

Pretty much.

Yeah, I'm leaning the same way, that the vans existed and some of them were also used for carrying gunpowder rather than the other way around.

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cthelmax In reply to wingsofwrath [2013-11-19 23:21:24 +0000 UTC]

Fits with the traditional British approach to procurement XD

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wingsofwrath In reply to cthelmax [2013-11-21 12:26:55 +0000 UTC]

Fits with the traditional approach to procurement for most armies, actually...

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Thedragon1998 [2013-11-18 06:07:46 +0000 UTC]

That last wagon......

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