HOME | DD
Psyco-The-Frog β Gameplay argument 3
#adventure #knucklestheechidna #rougethebat #sega #shadowthehedgehog #sonicthehedgehog #tailsmilesprower #doctoreggman
Published: 2017-05-25 21:42:36 +0000 UTC; Views: 2407; Favourites: 33; Downloads: 0
Redirect to original
Description
The hypocrisy. Another reason I dislike gameplay arguments because in cases like this, it has nothing to do with the quality of gameplay some people like to go on about, but just can't handle different styles, so they call them bad for no reason. These are usually the same people who can't see why others don't like or tired of boosting and can't understand that we want real 3D gameplay back. Then you know, the fanbase is unpleasable, Dreamcast Douches, alleged hive mind mentality, you can't complain but we can, etc.I just want REAL 3D gameplay and not play as Sonic skins for some superficial sense quality. It gives the games more variety. Again, I will refer to Sonic Worlds. www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNxWq9β¦
Oh shit, forgot this shit aged badly.
Related content
Comments: 80
i have the same experience with a guy he said i don't like sa2 because its not fast and repetitive because of the shooting levels and takes too just take a second to sink that in
π: 0 β©: 0
there's a difference beetween playing like themselves and being fun and pasing great, plus in SOnic 2, 3, Advance 1, 2 & 3 the characters played like thmselves on a different way, the overall gameplay is the same as sonic's but the characters have things making them distinct.
π: 0 β©: 1
"there's a difference beetween playing like themselves and being fun and pasing great"
Then Lost Worlds gameplay and boosting with 2D transitions should be called into question but most people who defend them don't.
"the characters played like thmselves on a different way"
So they didn't play like themselves, lol.
"the overall gameplay is the same as sonic's but the characters have things making them distinct."
Yeah, 2 moves while still playing the entire game the way you played it a hundred times beforehand.
π: 0 β©: 1
Even if ithey still play like them selves, that's just risking the game to be less fun, would you rather have a character play like himself even tho his gameplay ends up sucking? or simply have it play ike sonic with slight differences and make all the characters be fun for the player and make the player enjoy every second of it's gameplay.
π: 0 β©: 1
"Even if ithey still play like them selves, that's just risking the game to be less fun"
Only to a few specific people. Literally nobody else but people on the internet make this claim.
π: 0 β©: 1
How do you know that?
π: 0 β©: 1
Because I pay attention to the actual consumers and not just people on forums and youtube. Hell Sonic Adventure two has good standing on Steam and made the top 10 charts multiple times on Xbox live despite how bad many people would tell you it is.
π: 0 β©: 1
Many of those people in forums & youtube are actual customers.
π: 0 β©: 1
I mean the people who don't spend all day on the internet crying about how Sonic is too edgy for them, normal people, the people who make up most of the sales Sonic has. The people on forums and youtube don't even make up 1% of all consumers, which as of now is averages around 1 million when it use to be over 3 million.
I.E. The target audience vs small groups of nerds.
π: 0 β©: 1
Most of the people who disliked sonic adventure are normal people who make up sonic's most sales. many have logical reasons to why they disliked or hated sonic adventure 1 & 2, bad camera, bad gameplay, plot stupidity, it's not like if sonic's fanbase in general was conformed by nerds anyways.
π: 0 β©: 1
"Most of the people who disliked sonic adventure are normal people who make up sonic's most sales. "
No you can stop right there. That's a bald face lie and there's no way you're going to back that up. I've been around normal gamers all my life and so have other people, and all of us can say normal people don't act nothing like these people on the internet so kill that noise.
π: 0 β©: 1
Ooooh look who's the edgelord offended mee uuuuuuuuhhhh (sarcasm)
Sonic Adventure will always be overrated.
π: 0 β©: 1
I only called you a lair, and who the hell said anything about Sonic Adventure specifically.
π: 0 β©: 1
You know what? im not bothering with you guys anymore.
π: 0 β©: 1
You shouldn't have been in the first place.
π: 0 β©: 1
i had to because i wanted to share my opinion.
π: 0 β©: 1
No you didn't have to, an your opinion is worthless, nobody asked for it and they usually aren't based on facts. If you're not going by facts then there's no point.
π: 0 β©: 1
Then unless you can tell me what I said that was wrong and actually prove it, that is just your opinion.
π: 0 β©: 1
Sonic did the same to 2D platforming and turned a otherwise slow paced genera and maked it fast paced.
same could be done for 3D collecta-tons.
π: 0 β©: 1
Except platforming and 3D collection thons aren't fun to begin with.
π: 0 β©: 1
I like them, combine that with sonic ultra fast action could get for aΒ neat pick up and play.
π: 0 β©: 1
I can tell but most people don't, and from what I can see it's the reason why many of these games died off 2 generations ago and mostly exist with indie gaming.
π: 0 β©: 1
And? the genera is good for the sense of adventure, combine that with Sonic's speed, make the worlds huuuge to fit his speed,Β and boom, you got a replayable & fun game.
π: 0 β©: 0
Seriously? Fucking really? Someone in the comments section actually has a problem with Tails running around in a super robot shooting at enemies? The fuck has this world come too? Yeah... cause throwing useless dummy-ring bombs that don't do jack-shit is just fine and dandy.
π: 0 β©: 2
I do have a problem with tails being in a mech because I perfer his Adventure 1 playstyle (if there were both Tails mech shooting stages and flying levels I wouldn't have minded that). If you have a problem with him being a clone there you should also have a problem with him being a clone in Adventure 2.
π: 0 β©: 1
When did I ever say I had a problem with him being a clone?
After all, it's not like Tails is a super genius or something... if he isn't going to use his brain in battle then there's no point in playing as him considering how useless he is physically. Have fun throwing dummy rings at enemies that don't do shit.
π: 0 β©: 1
The reason why I assumed that you had a problem with that was that the only thing you criticized about Tails not-in-mech-playstyle were the ringbombs which weren't even in Adventure 1 (It had be something else and the only real complain I've seen about his Adventure 1 playstyle was that he was to similar to Sonic).
How does one useless move ruin an entire playstyle? (I haven't played 06 so I don't know if there other problems with him in that game, but the way you repeatetly bash that one move to justifie him being in a mech is weird to me) Also while Tails is a smart guy, how is he useless physically? I don't know if you forgot but there is a reason why his nickname is Tails - because he has two tails which he can use for both combat and flying. I get that there should be parts where he does use his inventions for something but to base his entire playstyle on that... Why?
π: 0 β©: 1
"How does one useless move ruin an entire playstyle?"
Oh... I don't know... because it's boring, it hardly does anything, and Tails doesn't actually 'fly', he just hovers about eight feet and falls to his death.
It's not just Sonic 06... starting from Sonic Heroes and onward, Tails' only method of attack is throwing out dummy rings. Yeah, you don't say... so he can fly... and? Aside from Sonic Heroes where the ability of flight IS useful (because y'know, he literally carries the team), the ability does not provide him with anything that will help him or his friends in the long run. Despite always being referred to as a genius at his age as well, his high I.Q. plays no part gameplay-wise which makes no sense. If your character can operate machinery, build computers, and build death-jets that can blast enemies and turn over tanks then I'd EXPECT at least ONE of those things to carry over into a gameplay mechanic especially since those sound way more interesting than simply flying... or hovering, because he doesn't legitimately fly.
π: 0 β©: 1
First of all I am still talking about his Adventure 1 playstyle where he had the tailspin attack and no useless dummie rings. In Sonic Heroes the only reason why he didn't have a attack was because the power character was made for combat (the speed character did have the homing attack but it was very ineffective in terms of combat). ''Aside from Sonic Heroes where the ability of flight IS useful'' that how I'd like future games to handle him, SA1 movement (with a few actually usefull moves added in) with extra pathways Sonic wouldn't be able to reach. ''his high I.Q. plays no part gameplay-wise which makes no sense'' I wouldn't mind him using machnies in his levels but just making him Gamma is not the way to go, I still wanna be able to fly as him (his flight in the Adventure games and Heroes was more than just hovering, especially when compared to the mech flying which was actual hovering).
π: 0 β©: 1
Well, in that case, I actually agree.
π: 0 β©: 0
Tell me about it. I still think it's stupid to say Tails doesn't play like himself when he started as a Sonic clone in Sonic 2, then actually try to say he isn't. Like I said, might as well tell me Ryu and Ken aren't the same.
π: 0 β©: 1
Or Mario and Luigi... I mean let's face it, the only difference is their color scheme and height difference.Β
sarcasm
π: 0 β©: 0
Except that in SA2 Tails didn't play like himself. He played like Gamma.
π: 0 β©: 2
Well the Adventure games had a growing up and becoming a hero by your self and not just by coping your Idol theme going for Tails so playing him in a mech Really makes sense he was after all suppose to by a super genius and mechanical master mind from the start.
π: 0 β©: 1
Just because he gameplaywise was like Sonic in Adventure 1 doesn't mean he was coping him.
π: 0 β©: 2
This started before SA1 it goes back all the way to Sonic 2 and 3 in which Tails would just copy every of Sonic's Movements.
During SA1 was he still mostly just Sonic with a twist but by the time of SA2 does Tails after this victory against Eggman at the end of SA1 fight with the tools of an inventor to prove to him self that he can be a Β real Β hero without being just a Sonic clone.Β
π: 0 β©: 1
How does Tails proving that he is not a clone (don't think the conflict was even about Tails being a clone of Sonic, but about not being dependent on him)
to himself mean using his mech? He defeated Eggman in Adventure 1 without it.
π: 0 β©: 1
You see Tails ever since he meet sonic always just imitates what Sonic does because Sonic was his Idole the embodiment of Cool while as we see in Tails adventure which plays before he meet sonic did he more relay on tools fight his enemies.
Now got Tails from game to game a little bit different from sonic again (being just a 2 pixels shorter sonic in 2 over being able to fly in 3 to having a slightly different mission objective and a new to him exclusiv move in Adventure) by the time of SA2 was it time for Tails to prove to him self that he can be a hero by being him and not a slightly different sonic and who is he? A mechanic so he used just like in Tails adventure weapons again just this time all the time and gone so far the he now resembled Eggman.
After SA2 would Tails use tool beside his standard move-set that he learned from Sonic (like all the weapons in Battle or The fake rings in Heros and 06) So that he now used the best of what sonic taught him together with his natural abilities and so become finally something unique.
So tails story arc about becoming more independent with out letting behind all that he learned to truly becoming the Heros he always wanted to be is probably one of the longest and best Arcs for any sonic characters.
Only for games since at least unleashed to completely ignore all of this character development in favor of turning him into a coward that runs and hind beside sonic when he is scared by his own shadow.
π: 0 β©: 1
I like the idea of Tails becoming more powerfull as soon as he lerns not to blindly follow Sonic but at the same time I feel like he could be more than just Gamma 2.0
π: 0 β©: 1
Well as I said after SA2 were he goes full one tech genius would he be more balanced in the use ofΒ gadgets
Β and Physical skills (really good shown in Sonic battle wish that Tails would always play more like he did in this game.)Β
π: 0 β©: 0
The same thing can be said about Tails, Dr. Eggman, and Gamma having the same gameplay as Gamma but didn't directly copy him.
π: 0 β©: 0
Correct but that doesn't make the point any less true. Matter of fact, if both Tails and Knuckles originally played like Sonic when they debuted, whose to say they played like themselves when their air action was the only difference from Sonic? We can easily look at Knuckles and see his fighting skills were not use during the classic era, the first game that did this was Sonic the Fighters and everyone fought in that game. Point is, Tails could potentially be different if he wasn't made a Sonic clone from the start.
Also, he played Eggman because Tails originally wasn't suppose to be in the game, but he was thrown in with Rouge because people asked for more characters.
π: 1 β©: 1
Hidden by Commenter
π: 0 β©: 1
"First of all the fact that Tails wasn't planned to be included doesn't change much for me."
I didn't say it was suppose to, but that's reality.
"You complain about pandering in modern games and that was pandering back in the dreamcast days"
You must not know how stupid this sounds right now....
" (he was only really included because of fan backlash from what I've heard)."
Different word to describe what I already said.
"The thing is that while yes, the point still stands, if you like/don't the fact that Tails is in a mech while wanting characters to play like themselves that would make you a hypocrite."
And the meaning of the word "hypocrite" is lost on you, especially when I made no complaints and said he can potentially be more then a Sonic clone, meaning he was not given an original play style to fit him to begin with.
"Of course I don't now how you feel about Tails being in a mech in SA2 (you can still like the levels just not the that tails is in a mech doesn't play like himself)"
Checking what I just said above, so how good is your argument to say he doesn't play like himself when he was introduced as a clone? Also, if you don't know how I feel about Tails being in a mech, maybe you should refrain from calling me a hypocrite. And just in case you bring this up, yes, Shadow plays like Sonic also, but Shadow literally is a clone of Sonic, Tails isn't but was made to play like him, as well as Knuckles and the Chaotix, and again, look at how they all turned out in later games, with only 1 of the characters I mentioned being a speed character(Sonic clone) in Heroes.
"but some people did like it and would want SEGA to do it for future games (I really did see those people)."
I'm well aware of people who like the style, but this has no baring on the subject.
π: 1 β©: 1
Hidden by Commenter
π: 0 β©: 1
" Why exactly? As I've said he was put in because of fan backlash and forcing in a character because of something like that and giving them another characters playstyle is pandering."
I actually have to explain it. You're comparing our current situation where Sega regressing and puts the series in a stasis, as well as adding next to know good content to pander to people with a twisted view of the classic games and wanting Sonic to be like Mario, to adding 2 characters for people who asked for a game that was already in the making.
"I don't know if I made it sound like pandering in modern games is ok but that's not what I was trying to say. Both are bad. Even if they aren't really the same kind of pandering."
You're completely ignoring the scale and results of both situations for a simplified view of pandering, hence why it's sounds stupid to bring that up as an argument.
"I don't get why he is a Sonic clone to you, simillar yes, but not a clone"
Have you played Sonic 2? I also meant by gameplay, exactly what you were talking about when you brought up that he played like Gamma.
"that would be Shadow in Adventure 2, for example (I'm not bashing him, I know it was intentional and mostly for story purposes,
just giving an example of an actual clone)."
I just said this.
"That's why I said ''IF you like/don't the fact that Tails is in a mech...'"
And that's why you shouldn't have said it to begin with, especially when nothing I said went against what I'm defending, nor did I say Tails should only be in a mech, you brought that up and alleged hypocrisy based on nothing I said.
" It has. Why? Because these people are the ones that even lead to characters being forced in like in SA2 thus preventing these characters from getting playstyles that fit them (even if in Tails case I think there already is one)."
Fit them? Dude, keep in mind who the only other character was that was added to this game, that being Rouge, who was just introduced, and her style actually did fit despite being cloned for Knuckles. Tails style didn't fit? So you haven't played Tails Adventure where he piloted multiple vehicles, and have a very similar stage in Sonic Adventure where he used the Tornado to shoot at Eggman's ship? You can argue that Tails didn't do these thing for a whole game but you can't say they didn't fit him, especially when he got shot down while piloting Sonic's plane in Sonic 2, and by the end of the stage, came back and picked Sonic up with a jet engine attached to it, meaning Tails fixed and modified the plane in the time it took Sonic to beat the level, after beating shot out of the sky no less.
The biggest thing you're not accounting for here to, is that your trying to put down the result of what happened with SA2, when nobody demanded Sega to make characters play like clones, they chose to do that to fulfill the request being made for a game they were making themselves. You can't compare that to saying every characters needs to play like Sonic or their bad and getting them cut from all main titles for a decade, as well as entire games being made to appeal to twisted nostalgia, or kiddy so it's not to be edgy. 2 characters vs the entire revision and regression of the series. Just because their both pandering does not put them on the same level of "bad", especially when the former just added more play time for the gameplay styles and characters.
π: 1 β©: 1
Hidden by Commenter
π: 0 β©: 1
"I actually agree with some what you are saying here mainly the whole ''scale and results of both situation'' thing. What SEGA is doing right now is worse, I just wanted to state that they have always done bs like that (just not as bad)."
I don't see how adding 2 characters is bullshit, the 1 time they did it based on fan demand. Shadow's game only added guns which was also asked for, and it had no effect on the game other then giving you options on how to kill enemies. So again, it's not comparable.
"I did, but when people think of Tails being playable in the classics they mainly refer to Sonic 3 (&Knuckles) where he wasn't really much of a Sonic clone."
Flying was the only difference from Sonic. That's like saying Shota clone from Street Fighter aren't clones because they have different moves, keeping in mind their move sets far outnumber running and jumping. Fact is, you're taking what people think over reality. Either way, Tails was a Sonic clone who could fly, just like Knuckles with his gliding.
"First of all, what's with you suggesting that I haven't played these games, like seriously?"
Because your comment about Tails style not fitting in SA2 suggests this.
"Second of all while yes, Tails using machines is thematically fitting I think that I just worded it poorly. If you wanna know what I ment ''Tails didn't do these thing for a whole game'' describes it pretty well. One thing to note here is that the people that want mech-shooting-Tails back probably don't just want that for 1 or 2 stages but still."
Still, he went from a Sonic clone to an Eggman clone, then a slower version of himself in Heroes and 06. What exactly could you push for with Tails in this argument when he never had his on style to begin with?
" does that mean Eggman wasn't going to be playable? Because without Tails AND Eggman there wouldn't have been any mech-shooting right?"
I just explained that Tails and Rouge were the only 2 added characters....
"From what I've heard I always thought that people were just wining about Tails not being playble, not complaining about mech-shooting missing."
Again, I said this before already, so you just read this yesterday. Tails was given that gameplay to even the game out. Even then, there would be no point in making him a Sonic clone like in SA1 when Shadow already filled that tole, especially when all Tails did in SA1 was play shorter Sonic levels in a race, as if that was part of the story, which it wasn't.
π: 1 β©: 1
I don't want this to go on forever but before I'll leave this post, I will reply one more time (of course you can still reply and I will probably read it, just not write a response).
''Flying was the only difference from Sonic.''
Except that flying is actually a huge difference that changes a lot in terms of how the game is played, alows the creators to add more pathways and smaller secrets.
I admit that I must have overlooked the part where you said Rouge was the new character.
''There would be no point in making him a Sonic clone like in SA1 when Shadow already filled that tole, especially when all Tails did in SA1 was play shorter Sonic levels in a race, as if that was part of the story, which it wasn't.'' Once again Tails isn't a full-on clone of Sonic like Shadow was. Yes similar but like I've said the flying actually changes a lot. I get that in Adventure 2 they had to make both stories equal, but for a possible Adventure style game in the futere I'd like Tails to play similarly to how he did in Adventure 1.
π: 0 β©: 1
| Next =>